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One of the things about plan A that has always made sense to me is the idea of TIME. They say that one should never make a life altering decision right after a trauma....and discovery of an A would certainly qualify. The problem I see with an immediate kick to the curb is that it is such a huge decision, esp when kids are involved, made during a time of great stress. Our situation was a bit different in that I confessed my A and DH had no idea....but even at confession not all the "fog" was gone. The hospital analogy made my think of my HS boyfriend who was killed by a drunk driver. He was hit the day after Thanksgiving, and was most likely gone from us at that instant....but he was rushed to the hospital and put on all the life support systems. Saturday and Sunday we prayed waited, waited and prayed. His parents wrestled with what to do. Finally, after yet another test, they let him go on that Monday. Truth is, there really wasn't much hope on Friday night....but they weren't ready to make such a monumental decision in the midst of such shock. They needed that time. I honestly don't know how someone drags on in limbo for years. But I would never say someone was foolish for spending some time really fighting for their M, even if it ultimately did not work. Of course, as a FWW, it would make sense that I am glad DH stayed with me  But he did have his line in the sand as well. I knew three months before I was asked to resign last year that it was probably all over. Nothing I did would have changed it.....so I could have just decided to "quit" being a good teacher for the rest of the year. I am glad, however, that I chose to teach my butt off until the bitter end. Because I knew I had conducted myself with integrity no matter how unscrupulous the administration had been. Reading about the hurt and lost M's just makes me wish even more that adultery simply did not exist. Sin hurts people....always.
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EE, sometimes, what I see in your posts is anger towards SH and MB about what happened to you. I see you saying that you got a D and became a "visitor" to your child and you deem that to be failure and NOT an MB success. I have to say, after 8 years here, I would have to agree with you. NOT because you followed MB and became a D'd dad, but because of how angry you seem to still be.
I followed MB for the day Pep told me that she would let me make the decision about what I wanted to do. I have been in Plan B for 15 months now. There is no recovery of my marriage on the horizon. Odds are against me and my marriage. I have suffered. I continue to suffer. My children suffer not having their father in their daily lives. It is sad, and yet, I count myself(after I have finished my personal recovery) as a MB success.
I saw a blog about a month back. It was a man who was talking to a friend who had just come out of rehab for eating disorders. She was saying, "They say that 98% of people with eating problems will struggle with them for the rest of their lives, I am DOOMED." He asked her, "Why can't you be in that 2%?" It is about you thinking.
DrH has even stated that he can not tell you which couple will survive, and which one will not. How can I, someone whom has only been dealing with this such a short time, and on a limited basis, be able to tell someone that they shouldn't TRY.
The most important part of doing the MB plans is the ability to look back at everything you did, even after a D and KNOW that you did EVERYTHING possible to save your marriage. You can live with no regrets. There is often mention in the articles that you should consult an attorney to KNOW your rights. I don't know how we, as an MB community, worldwide, could change the laws. We can only do what we can to help the people here with what they want, and that is a PLAN to help end the pain. That's what I got, and that's what I help give others. Help with the best PLAN I have ever seen to SURVIVE my WH's A.
BW(Me)aka Scotty:37 DSx2: 10,12 DDAY2(PA)Nov27/09 Plan B Dec18/09 Personal R in works Scotty's THING  Newly Betrayed click herePraying for walls and doors. Thanx MM “Surviving is important. Thriving is elegant.” ? Maya Angelou PROGRESS NOT PERFECTION THANK YOU
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The Misconception: If you are in a bad situation, you will do whatever you can do to escape it.
The Truth: If you feel like you aren�t in control of your destiny, you will give up and accept whatever situation you are in.
In 1965, a scientist named Martin Seligman started shocking dogs.
He was trying to expand on the research of Pavlov � the guy who could make dogs salivate when they heard a bell ring.
Seligman wanted to head in the other direction, and when he rang his bell instead of providing food he zapped them with electricity. To keep them still, he restrained them in a harness during the experiment.
After they were conditioned, he put these dogs in a big box with a little fence dividing it into two halves.
They figured if they rang the bell, the dog would hop over the fence to escape, but it didn�t. It just sat there and braced itself.
They decided to try shocking them after the bell. The dog still just sat there and took it.
When they put a dog in the box which had never been shocked before and tried to zap it � it jumped the fence.
You are just like these dogs.
If, over the course of your life, you have experienced crushing defeat or pummeling abuse or loss of control, you learn over time there is no escape, and if escape is offered, you will not act � you become a nihilist who trusts futility above optimism. The Misconception: You are a strong individual who doesn�t conform unless forced to. The Truth: It takes little more than an authority figure or social pressure to get you to obey. Take a look at these lines. ![[Linked Image from upload.wikimedia.org]](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/47/Asch_experiment.png/270px-Asch_experiment.png) Which one of the lines in the second box is the same length as the one in the first box? Psychologist Solomon Asch used to perform an experiment where he would get a group of people together and show them cards with images just like these. He would then ask the group the same question I just asked you. Sometimes he would ask them to say which line was longer or shorter. Let�s imagine you were in a room with ten other people, and when he asked which line was the same length, everyone in the room said the answer was B. What would you do? Most people think they would go against the grain and say, �There�s no way. The answer is obviously C.� Most people did, but 37 percent of people didn�t. Over a third of people in his experiments conform with the group even when it is obviously the wrong answer. In his experiments, everyone in the room except the subject was in on the trick. They agreed beforehand to pick wrong answers on purpose and stick to them, to defend their answers. There were no rewards or punishments for not conforming, yet intelligent people just like you still caved in. Up against such tremendous social pressure, there is a good chance � 37 percent � you will crack. As a long term member of these forums, EE, please understand that YOU are viewed as an "Authority figure" by a newly betrayed poster - the nihilistic attitude you take DOES affect them.
Last edited by HoldHerHand; 03/22/11 06:22 PM.
"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Niels Bohr
"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer
"Fair speech may hide a foul heart." - Samwise Gamgee LOTR
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I'm listening to Marriage Builders radio, and Dr. Harley just made the comment that if Joyce were to have an affair he would try Plan A. Joyce said she could not do Plan A and Dr Harley affirmed her with "I know you couldn't." I have always said the same about myself. I could NEVER do Plan A. Unless pistol whipping could be considered a part of Plan A! 
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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I'm listening to Marriage Builders radio, and Dr. Harley just made the comment that if Joyce were to have an affair he would try Plan A. Joyce said she could not do Plan A and Dr Harley affirmed her with "I know you couldn't." I have always said the same about myself. I could NEVER do Plan A. Unless pistol whipping could be considered a part of Plan A! I couldn't do it either. My H must have known that and that's why he waited 6 months after he ended his A and went NC with the OW to tell me about it. He was still lucky he got to keep all his parts. Kudos to my H for doing a pretty decent facsimile of Plan A after my A, even though he didn't know much about MB back then. He came remarkably close, all things considered. He was much more patient than I would have been.
Me: BS/FWW: 48
BS/WH: 50
DS: 30, 27, 25
DD: 28
OC: 10
BH and I are raising my OC together.
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So why wouldn't someone who tried this under the coaching of the actual Marriage Builders staff, who failed to recover his marriage have what you term to be "the nihilistic attitude?" Am I supposed to simply fake it and say everything is peachy, when everything inside me, everything I believe in says otherwise? If someone wants to try, I say let them try. I say minimize the pain. The affair will be painful enough, let's not add to someone's pain the pain of the failed attempt to save their marriage if the odds are stacked against them. If they want to risk it, then let them risk it. As someone who has already walked that road, I'd not walk it again. We already know the affair is painful. In the interest of full disclosure, I'm here to tell you the pain of failing to break through the fog with all of Dr Harley's plans is also a very painful event. So it's not saying I'd rather die than have the surgery, it's saying if the surgery goes bad, and there's an 85% chance it will, the results of the failed surgery will be very painful. I didn't know that going in. I just wanted to save my family, my marriage. Now I know it, and I stick to my view that if would happen to me again, I'd not even try. Civil War battlefield medical treatment, cut off the affected limb and send the wounded home. I've already had the vasectomy so I'll not have any more children. So no one can take any more children from me. Telling me I didn't fail really doesn't pass the truth test. I failed, period. I was unable to break through the fog. I was unable to convince my XW that I was a better choice than the path she chose. I was unable to prevail in court to be primary custodian of my child. I was unable to protect significant marital assets from my XW. I failed on every account. Telling me otherwise is not being in touch with reality. If it's possible and/or probably that one will save their marriage, then that simply makes my outcome even more of a failure. I'll probably get another two week vacation for my thoughts. However, I felt that some misconceptions about what I mean and where I was coming from needed addressing. The Misconception: If you are in a bad situation, you will do whatever you can do to escape it.
The Truth: If you feel like you aren�t in control of your destiny, you will give up and accept whatever situation you are in.
In 1965, a scientist named Martin Seligman started shocking dogs.
He was trying to expand on the research of Pavlov � the guy who could make dogs salivate when they heard a bell ring.
Seligman wanted to head in the other direction, and when he rang his bell instead of providing food he zapped them with electricity. To keep them still, he restrained them in a harness during the experiment.
After they were conditioned, he put these dogs in a big box with a little fence dividing it into two halves.
They figured if they rang the bell, the dog would hop over the fence to escape, but it didn�t. It just sat there and braced itself.
They decided to try shocking them after the bell. The dog still just sat there and took it.
When they put a dog in the box which had never been shocked before and tried to zap it � it jumped the fence.
You are just like these dogs.
If, over the course of your life, you have experienced crushing defeat or pummeling abuse or loss of control, you learn over time there is no escape, and if escape is offered, you will not act � you become a nihilist who trusts futility above optimism. The Misconception: You are a strong individual who doesn�t conform unless forced to. The Truth: It takes little more than an authority figure or social pressure to get you to obey. Take a look at these lines. Which one of the lines in the second box is the same length as the one in the first box? Psychologist Solomon Asch used to perform an experiment where he would get a group of people together and show them cards with images just like these. He would then ask the group the same question I just asked you. Sometimes he would ask them to say which line was longer or shorter. Let�s imagine you were in a room with ten other people, and when he asked which line was the same length, everyone in the room said the answer was B. What would you do? Most people think they would go against the grain and say, �There�s no way. The answer is obviously C.� Most people did, but 37 percent of people didn�t. Over a third of people in his experiments conform with the group even when it is obviously the wrong answer. In his experiments, everyone in the room except the subject was in on the trick. They agreed beforehand to pick wrong answers on purpose and stick to them, to defend their answers. There were no rewards or punishments for not conforming, yet intelligent people just like you still caved in. Up against such tremendous social pressure, there is a good chance � 37 percent � you will crack. As a long term member of these forums, EE, please understand that YOU are viewed as an "Authority figure" by a newly betrayed poster - the nihilistic attitude you take DOES affect them.
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Am I supposed to simply fake it and say everything is peachy, when everything inside me, everything I believe in says otherwise? I may be confusing you with another poster - aren't you currently married to a woman that you're in total love with? Does she know you're posting here about how unhappy you are? If someone wants to try, I say let them try. Yep. I agree. Because you'll never know what could have been if you don't try. As someone who has already walked that road, I'd not walk it again. Your choice. Nothing wrong with that. So it's not saying I'd rather die than have the surgery, it's saying if the surgery goes bad, and there's an 85% chance it will, the results of the failed surgery will be very painful.
I didn't know that going in. If you knew the chance was less than 100%, how did you think you would feel if recovery didn't happen for your marriage? I've already had the vasectomy so I'll not have any more children. So no one can take any more children from me. Gee. I wasn't expecting the second sentence. That's sad, that your outlook is like that. I failed, period. I was unable to break through the fog. In that respect, yes. You failed. If I tried to walk through a brick wall, I would fail, as well. But if I didn't kill myself from the injuries received, I would feel blessed to be alive and vow to be more careful next time.
D-Day 2-10-2009
Fully Recovered and Better Than Ever!
Thank you Marriage Builders!
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Got no answers for you, EE. None.
I'm not the type to lay down my arms and die because I think the battle is unwinnable.
I'm actually more like MB's example of trying to walk through a brick wall, except I keep hitting the mofo harder and harder until either it gives or I do.
I know defeat, not quit.
"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Niels Bohr
"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer
"Fair speech may hide a foul heart." - Samwise Gamgee LOTR
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EE, even if you hadn't tried to save your M, there would have been pain. Divorce is painful. If you do Plan A and then Plan B and then Plan D, there is pain. If you go straight to Plan D, there is still pain. And there's no guarantee that things would have gone differently for you in court had you went straight to Plan D. Things may have turned out exactly as they are now. At least, this way, you know you tried. You don't have to live the rest of your life wondering if things could have been different and your M could have been saved.
Me: BS/FWW: 48
BS/WH: 50
DS: 30, 27, 25
DD: 28
OC: 10
BH and I are raising my OC together.
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***EDIT***
Last edited by Ariel; 04/08/11 04:24 AM. Reason: Tos: disrespectful
Formerly ConfuzedHusband
BH
WW (Now XW)
Married 4 years, No children.
EA/PA from 2/2008 to 5/2008.
DDay: 5/17/2008 - Separated 6/1/2008 - Filed 8/3/2008
Divorce final 3/2009.
Now in a committed relationship with a woman of character who loves me so much better and deeper than I ever dreamed possible. I had no idea what I was missing out on and am so grateful God gave me a free "second chance" at love and life.
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This is the first time I am posting apart from my own sitch (I guess this is now over) and I have gained a lot of reassurance from all the postings.
I am very grateful that seasoned vets were immediately able to do what I most desperately needed when I first posted - to give me hope that there is something that I can do to turn the sitch in the direction I want. That hope is not an easy thing to obtain, especially when your own sitch seems so hopeless.
In view of all the newbies clicking on this site, and seeing these debates as to how well the advice works, I am certainly glad I had the fortune to view the strings that were proceedling positively.
I am not naive - my own sitch is now at a point where divorce is imminent, not because MB has not worked, but because I now have to decide whether I wish to remain married to my WW. By strictly following the advice given, I have reached a point where I am at peace - I have done what I could - I don't feel that I desperately need to stay in this marriage at all costs.
During the past six months, I was not able to implement all the advice immediately - sometimes I myself was loathe to do it, but through it all I noticed that every time I followed the textbook, the results were as anticipated.
The hardest part I had was to enforce the no contact. Not that the OM ever contacted her, but my WW found ways to find his photos on the internet, at home on my childrens' FB pages, and from her friends' computers. She was so in the fog that she would not listen to any of my arguments.
I think this will be a challenge for many others too, but when the contact is cut, the WS will start moving towards the foghorn.
Thanks once again to all who have helped me! Without you I would be just another shipwreck.
Me BH/WS: 51
WW/BS: 45
DD: 14
DS: 17
Married 18 years
Together 19 years
D/Day (WW PA) 02/07/10 and new D/Day 10/10/10
D/Day (WH PA) 10/10/10 (ONS btwn years 1995 to 2001)
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"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Niels Bohr
"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer
"Fair speech may hide a foul heart." - Samwise Gamgee LOTR
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Bump, de bump... ooooh aaaaah!
"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Niels Bohr
"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer
"Fair speech may hide a foul heart." - Samwise Gamgee LOTR
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I had completely forgotten about this thread until your 'bump', Brain.
Then, I read my post 
I've undergone the dreaded surgery I was not sure if I wanted to live through. It was horrible, I admit. I admit I had the "I'd rather be dead" thoughts more than once after surgery. And, in one month I will undergo another surgery. It is so WEIRD when we read our past posts and suddenly they are like they were written as advice to ourselves. I think I'll listen to myself and offer myself hope for better health in the future. Or, better coping skills. And, I will not "give up" my integrity or my faith or my hope just because of some lousy thing I must deal with. It involves making some lousy choices under some lousy circumstances.
I think the worst error is to give into fear and anxiety and surrender to one's lesser human qualities.
Our grief can elevate us to a higher plane of human understanding.
Or, not.
We must resist the pit of permanent vitriol and poisonous hatred that casts a dark shadow over our own goodness. Brain, Your 'bump' is like an arrow shot straight to my current needs. Like I said, weird. But, thank you, Brain. Thank you so much.
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You're welcome. I have to give my hats off to Triple H who bumped it first.
Are there more dreaded surgeries in your future Pep?
FWW/BW (me)
WH
2nd M for both
Blended Family with 7 kids between us
Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.
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