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Originally Posted by AndyM
It makes me feel good and gives me hope when I see you guys moving ahead. I'm envious that both of your WWs seem to be engaged and willing to actively work at the M - on some level. I realize it's got to be difficult, but try to think long term and don't push too hard.

Thanks for the sentiment. I'm trying hard not to get us stuck at "deciding to work on the marriage" and moving instead to "actively working on the marriage".

And if you run into any extra patience, kindly pass some this way...


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Hey, guys...just needed to respond to this.

For the longest time, when W and I went out to dinner, walks in the park, etc., she would tell the kids -- who were sometimes worried we were out alot -- that we were out 'working on the marriage'.

That talk has died down a great deal after exposure, NC...we are all more comfortable in the house that mom and dad need time together, and my W simply says "UA time" (kids now know what this means).

It's somewhat comforting that she's not 'deciding to work on the M' anymore, but is instead focused on ensuring UA time between us -- the decision seems to have been made :-)

Thanks.

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Originally Posted by Arpeggi
However, as humans, our choices can affect our mood. If I do something to help someone else, I feel good about myself. If I..... well, had an affair, I would feel depressed after it was brought into the light and I began seeing it for the ugly thing it was. And I'm of the mind that going through some of that emotional pain is healthy for your WW right now. If, however, she continues to dwell and get stuck in a rut, maybe she should see a psychiatrist (NOT a general practioner) and perhaps medication coupled with talk therapy could be of benefit if she is struggling to forgive herself.

Yes. She may be starting to understand this. I heard her the other night try to blame the current depressed state on me, "This has been eight weeks of YOU shaming me." She apologized quickly. And it sounds like her PC did not let her get away with that. As she reports, she claimed to have no guilt left. But he made her admit that she is guilting and shaming herself. I think its just starting to wave over her. The early stages of fog were tons of anger and denial. It was easier to be angry at me and be rooting and determined for a failure in the M.

I remember a line she said on Exposure day... in the office with MC moments after exposure, "You will never forgive me. You will hold this over me for the rest of your life. I know you too well." And another line, "You can modify some behavior but you won't make changes in yourself."

Its hard that neither of those things are actually turning out to be true. Once again, DAMN these BH's and all their decency. Where is the monster I learned to hate that justified the A?!?!

Here is the most important thing... I am not in a fight with her. My spouse is not my enemy. She has guilt. I am here for her. She is mad at me. I am here for her. I am fighting for the M. We are fighting together. To stab the beast. If she is depressed, its my mission and my loving, fulfilling purpose in life to understand her, know her, grow with her and nurture and cherish her. Her PC suggested that she open up and allow me in. Let me be nice to her. Just try to let love blossom and believe in your H. Its sucking her energy to stay this mad and twist her mind into knots. (Not my words.. I paraphrase what she told me about her PC session)


Me: 43
ExWW: 44
Married 16yrs. 4 children

EA (ExWW): May-Nov 2009 + Aug-Dec 2010
D-DAY JAN 30, 2011
Exposure: FEB 7, 2011
Contact Again: Apr 25, 2011
Divorce Final Sept 2012

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I hate that phrase 'deciding to work on the marriage' or 'what if we're in the same place in 6 months?'. To me it sounds like "until I know the unknowable I will make no commitment". If someone is too frightened to play big in life they ought to just come out and say it.

There is an old Irish proverb that states if you want to climb a wall first throw your hat over it. There is nothing to think about - all you hear is fear talking. Throw your hat over the dang wall.


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Originally Posted by Arpeggi
The next thing I have to say is a little voice in the back of my mind.... after reading your updates, and hearing about her depression, I can't help but think there could be something more to this story. Perhaps she still looks at his Facebook profile? Has some pictures saved of the OM? Those will prevent her recovery from moving forward. OR..... it is possible that she is carrying around some guilt about things she hasn't told you. What I'm getting at is, I think that her affair, given the length of it and the depth of her current depression, probably went physical. What have you done to verify the truth besides taking her word for it? If there is undisclosed elements of the affair, then her recovery will be almost impossible.

Yeah.... I know. It really seems that the affair never went full on PA. There was kissing across many months. POSOM kissed my wife (he knew she was married.) The clear fact that she wanted to use sex hurts just as much. She admits she had plans and was ready if he only jumped in. (So OM was decent enough to keep his distance when he knew she was married.... but POS because he never should have gone as far as he did.) She admits that she was totally ready for PA. I am grateful for that honesty. And it sure hurts to know she was that far gone from our M.

There are a few other undisclosed little tidbits that require a lot of energy to hide. Her favorite author talks a lot about never telling. The misguided all too common thinking being you are saving some hurt for your spouse. We don't have to rehash that whole argument. See FaithForever's thread about exposing three years after the A. Its all been said earlier on my thread and in other places. Her PC I believe also advises her to be careful exposing to much. I don't know that for sure but the tidbits she shares make me scratch my head about his advice sometimes.

So, yeah, I am afraid a few other tidbits are there. Heck, I know a few other tidbits are still hidden. That sucks some of her energy for sure.

She definitely yearns for him. She is honest about that. We have not written a NC letter like Harley suggests. She really says she wants to forget. But he talks to her in her imagination and she thinks about him a lot. Its a fantasy, she knows. He only met a couple EN's every few weeks. While I am here to meet all EN's all the time. The fog can't separate the fantasy that felt so good from the reality that can do more than feel great if you let it... its also REAL.

So she struggles to forget him. She used to send him an email about every six weeks. He never wrote back. The last one may have been Xmas eve. She almost or may have sent one on my DDay evening (she was acting so wierd I finally went and investigated... Ah Ha!) Arpeggi, I think you first talked to me a few hours after that looooong night. Happy to say I am remarkably emotionally stable now. And we are loving each other. Had plenty of great M moments in Feb & Mar.

So... her plan is transfference. As I become her fantasy/reality and meet all EN's. She and her PC believe her yearning for OM will dissipate.


Me: 43
ExWW: 44
Married 16yrs. 4 children

EA (ExWW): May-Nov 2009 + Aug-Dec 2010
D-DAY JAN 30, 2011
Exposure: FEB 7, 2011
Contact Again: Apr 25, 2011
Divorce Final Sept 2012

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Originally Posted by fight4life
I hate that phrase 'deciding to work on the marriage' or 'what if we're in the same place in 6 months?'. To me it sounds like "until I know the unknowable I will make no commitment". If someone is too frightened to play big in life they ought to just come out and say it.

There is an old Irish proverb that states if you want to climb a wall first throw your hat over it. There is nothing to think about - all you hear is fear talking. Throw your hat over the dang wall.

You got that right, I cannot stand hearing the "what if" thing. What response do they want? "Oh, yeah, you're right, might as well just call it quits since we cannot predetermine the outcome?" Eff that.


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Originally Posted by Arpeggi
Last thought: this counselor sounds like an enabler - he/she managed to support your wife's affair at some level for a very long time. I would get her as far away from that counselor as possible. She doesn't need individual counseling from a counselor. She doesn't need to dwell on the past. She needs to deal with the present, WITH YOU.
I know. Yeah it kinda torments me. She starting seeing him after her first or second contact with OM.. And she saw him throughout. I am disappointed neither he nor her family and friends were able to be the accountability partner that made her stop. Some friends were cheerleaders. I don't believe PC was a cheerleader. I do believe he really fought her to stay in M and work on it. Especially since he sees so many children of D in his practice. He told her time and again, "Your husband has no clue whats wrong, you haven't even tried. You will have regrets if you don't try with every last ounce of effort." And it was true. We didn't really start trying until last fall. And then this big secret was in the way, putting up invisible barriers for so long. We've only been trying as a team together with honest effort for a few weeks when you think about it. Maybe just a few days!

Well, I scratch my head about the PC. Its hard not to feel betrayed by everyone who knew. But.... as so many people have said, you can't blame yourself. Just because I failed at meeting EN's so badly for so long, it was her boundaries that led her to seek an A. In the same vein, I cannot blame others. Can't blame her therapist. Can't blame family or friends that told her what to wear, how to try and attract OM, what to say to OM and even drove the her to the bar to meet him. Can't blame any of them. Placing my energy on the PC or anyone else is a waste.

On balance, the PC is better than average. I have met him several times and have the opportunity to meet him any other time we'd like.

Last edited by stretch123; 04/08/11 03:29 PM.

Me: 43
ExWW: 44
Married 16yrs. 4 children

EA (ExWW): May-Nov 2009 + Aug-Dec 2010
D-DAY JAN 30, 2011
Exposure: FEB 7, 2011
Contact Again: Apr 25, 2011
Divorce Final Sept 2012

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Just an update.

Feeling pretty good. Like we have a shot. Wife said today at lunch (I took her out during the day) that she is just "feeling better" since our marriage weekend.

I really strived to make this weekend great. She had something to go to on Saturday and on Sunday. So she was gone quite a bit and the kids get a little whiny. Which is not fair to mom. I planned fun breakfast and really nice family dinners when mom got home. We went shopping for new fish for the two girls and I knew there would be puppies at the store. My wife love's puppies. She fell in love with a puppy. I knew what was going on with her mentally.

We had a special Sunday night together, me and wife. Connected, special, passionate.

I still fel really sad about how this might not turn out. I admit that the thought of a commitment to a puppy seems strange while she can't commit to marriage past six months.

But she explained her heart is healing, it opens the possibility, her heart opened up to love. Her therapist told her to stop making up reasons to be mad at husband. She has enough of a case against me... doesn't need more. Just try to work on making the case "FOR" loving your husband again.

Anyway, we went out at lunch today and saw the puppy again. And we bought the puppy and brought him home! This is the one "SHE" fell in love with. When I was a younger man, I wouldn't let her pick the puppy she wanted. I had to get the one I wanted. And she never really liked that dog. Bad move young men. Let the SAHM pick the puppy for cryin' out loud!!! Duh! She spends all day with it.

Its going to be a healing pet for her depression and for one of our daughters anxieties. We used to just have another baby when she was depressed. It seems obvious this is partly something to help her heart love again and heal depression. Its also good for centering the family.

I will try not to dwell on how sad I feel so often while she still cannot wear her wedding ring and commit to marriage forever. It still hurts and it will for a long time. Will this puppy also help her release her OM fantasy? That needs to go away. And I need to lose all my hurt and pain. And she needs to realize she loves me again and only imagines a future with us together forever. But she said, "That's still gonna take time."


Me: 43
ExWW: 44
Married 16yrs. 4 children

EA (ExWW): May-Nov 2009 + Aug-Dec 2010
D-DAY JAN 30, 2011
Exposure: FEB 7, 2011
Contact Again: Apr 25, 2011
Divorce Final Sept 2012

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Stretch - thanks for updating us. That's great news! I'm very happy for you. It sounds like you have a chance, and an excellent chance at that. Try not to worry about the things you have no control over - her emotions, reactions, etc. Be the best person YOU can be and then let the chips fall where they may. I have a very good feeling about your situation!


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We did the puppy thing too! It was a year after Dday. It filled my love bank big time. Clearly he was making a commitment to work hard with me as we knew separating with a puppy would add to the difficulties. We took a training class together and go on walks with him. It is wonderful.

Good luck

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Originally Posted by AndyM
Stretch - thanks for updating us. That's great news! I'm very happy for you. It sounds like you have a chance, and an excellent chance at that. Try not to worry about the things you have no control over - her emotions, reactions, etc. Be the best person YOU can be and then let the chips fall where they may. I have a very good feeling about your situation!

Hey Andy, even though that was written to stretch, I think I'll borrow your advice for a while today. Stupid roller coaster driver is having a spasm at the controls again today!


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Originally Posted by stretch123
Just an update.

I will try not to dwell on how sad I feel so often while she still cannot wear her wedding ring and commit to marriage forever. It still hurts and it will for a long time. Will this puppy also help her release her OM fantasy? That needs to go away. And I need to lose all my hurt and pain. And she needs to realize she loves me again and only imagines a future with us together forever. But she said, "That's still gonna take time."

Stretch, I feel like you're blaming yourself a LOT, and I wonder if she can feel that. If so, her Taker is going to run with that idea, because it fuels her wayward fantasy that you DESERVE to be treated like that because you accept it. Honestly, I think it's intolerable for her to keep you in limbo by playing this game with not wearing her wedding ring or committing past 6 months. Don't let her play with your emotions like that. I think it's time to get tough with her a little bit.

Tell her you've got a life to live and kids that need parenting, and you're done playing games with her. Remind her she already MADE a commitment to the marriage FOR life, and she needs to make a decision. Either she hits the road, or starts acting like an adult and be a mom to her children. Tell her you'll live with or without her, and remind her that she is an ADULT - a mother who is hurting her children with her selfish indecisiveness.

That communicates a message of strength, and although she may try to call your bluff and threaten ridiculous things, stay strong and impassive. Paradoxically, she will likely be attracted to your attitude of strength.

Oddly, the more you ACT secure and confident even when you feel like you're falling apart inside, the more secure and confident you will actually become.

Thoughts? I know this is a bold plan, but to my mind it beats the heck out of the Limbo Hell you're currently in.

Best Wishes,
Arpeggi


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Married 4 years, No children.
EA/PA from 2/2008 to 5/2008.
DDay: 5/17/2008 - Separated 6/1/2008 - Filed 8/3/2008
Divorce final 3/2009.

Now in a committed relationship with a woman of character who loves me so much better and deeper than I ever dreamed possible. I had no idea what I was missing out on and am so grateful God gave me a free "second chance" at love and life.
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Originally Posted by sunnydaze53
We did the puppy thing too! It was a year after Dday. It filled my love bank big time. Clearly he was making a commitment to work hard with me as we knew separating with a puppy would add to the difficulties. We took a training class together and go on walks with him. It is wonderful.

Good luck
Its crazy how much she loves this puppy. Our two girls are the happiest little girls ever. THis little moppy dog is so calm and cuddly in the lap. No one can believe she got another dog after hating our old dog for the past 11 years so vehemently. Now, the old dog is getting love and attention and praise for being such a good older companion.

I will allow myself some credit. I had the kids all day Sat morning. I found out about the dead fish. And tried to comfort little daughter all day. I also knew it was important for wife to have family time Sat night and not go out with her friend. And I wanted to get the girls new fish, plus I know how much my wife loves puppies. So when she got home Sat afternoon I told her the family plan to go to the pet store. But I thought she would just love playing with them like usual and put them back. But she couldn't get this one to leave her mind for two days. So Monday for lunch I suggested we get lunch (she wanted a burger place and I said sure, we'll go there. I found a good chicken sandwich for my new fitness plan) and we looked at the puppy again. Its nice to just let her make up her own mind about something and have the debate and final decision on her own with me standing by and being supportive. Look, after all, its her house a majority of the time as the SAHM. Its up to her.

I am REALLY tickled about how much our girls love this puppy. Its like a real life stuffed animal. Now maybe they won't want a new stuffed animal every week.


Me: 43
ExWW: 44
Married 16yrs. 4 children

EA (ExWW): May-Nov 2009 + Aug-Dec 2010
D-DAY JAN 30, 2011
Exposure: FEB 7, 2011
Contact Again: Apr 25, 2011
Divorce Final Sept 2012

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Originally Posted by Arpeggi
Honestly, I think it's intolerable for her to keep you in limbo by playing this game with not wearing her wedding ring or committing past 6 months. Don't let her play with your emotions like that. I think it's time to get tough with her a little bit.

... communicates a message of strength, and although she may try to call your bluff and threaten ridiculous things, stay strong and impassive. Paradoxically, she will likely be attracted to your attitude of strength.

Oddly, the more you ACT secure and confident even when you feel like you're falling apart inside, the more secure and confident you will actually become.
I know. Confidence and strength are attractive. So are independance.
Ultimatums, etc. are not a loving way to get what I really need. I really need a commitment to marriage for life. But I will not use SD or DJ.
Not wearing her ring hurts, hurts, hurts. Always will. And she knows that.(almost 2 years now -- 8mos since I started working on the M and 2mos post exposure day)
But while in the fog past exposure day all she could do was be mad at me. Defensive, justifications, angry, unbelieving in herself, in me, in our marriage. She built up quite a wall and a story and a way of being for two years. She has only really started to love in the past two or three weeks.

My PC feels I have actually held back. When I show pain, hurt, fear I see it hurt her and I quit and try to comfort her. I am afraid to push her away. So we try to get real and talk about the "ugly" but it just doesn't go well. And in MC she lets me talk long enough until our MC picks up on something that I said wrong, or that makes me sound bad. She admits, that she just tries to keep quiet and avoid the spotlight in MC.

BUT ... she acknowledged after her PC last week that she did that. That she wants to stop making up a bunch of excuses and reasons to be angry with me. That she is actually opening her heart intentionally.

They say Plan A for six months. I've got 4 to go. And I can go longer. Life is swell. The kids are very important. I can find inner strength to go on for the family a bit longer if I have to. She went on unhappy a long, long time but she was frustrated and must have known that we had not even started to try. I didn't even know an EA was happening to me. We are really trying and working on it now. Its all out there and I think needing a marriage commitment is a very real and fair need of mine.

But, yeah, at some point in the future (end of summer? next fall?) I just won't be able to take limbo. The thought breaks my heart.

I think she also believes that OM withdrawal has to be complete or something. She doesn't want to yearn for him still. Side note vent and rage here guys....[UGH! She is yearning for a total fantasy! That guy met one EN just a few times when she was confused and vulnerable. Usually had some alcohol. UGH! He would have let her down on a ton of EN's. There is a REASON a fifty year old guy lives in his mom's duplex and doesn't have a relationship. There is a REASON he did not remarry, his wife left him, he didn't like to date. How bad a husband and father was HE when he was in his twenties. How miserable would he make her when stress, work, kids, just life in general disappoint. Imagine how great a conversationalist I can be by the time I am fifty. GEEEZ!! All... ALL her fantasies are right here in front of her. In reality! Not a fantasy. There is nothing to yearn after in that POSOM!!!] Thanks for the chance to vent that.


Me: 43
ExWW: 44
Married 16yrs. 4 children

EA (ExWW): May-Nov 2009 + Aug-Dec 2010
D-DAY JAN 30, 2011
Exposure: FEB 7, 2011
Contact Again: Apr 25, 2011
Divorce Final Sept 2012

"I want to be married and stay married. Now I uunderstand the kind of marriage I want and we all deserve. But I also know it takes two to want to Build that Marriage."
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Hey stretch, hope the dog is working out good. House-trained already?

So what is your wife's position on what she is doing? Just in a quasi-limbo and mostly on the marriage side of the fence? Treading lightly, watching what you do? 90% in?

Sans the ring, your story just kind of reads like mine. Hell, my wife even picked up a stray beagle off the road a few weeks ago. We'd have kept it but a neighbor offered to take it instead. It was a good thing--the dog peed on my recliner twice, we've got two dogs already, plus two kids and a marriage to work on.


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A Beagle is really independant. They think of food non stop. Our 11yr ld dog is a Beagle. He looks attractive in photos. He made me (as a younger man under thirty) feel more pompous I believe. We got him because I wanted him. It was a projection of me and manliness I guess. You can see that in men quite often. The dog somehow supposedly says something about our manhood. I knew latin men from C. & S. America that couldn't stand the idea of getting your male dog neutered. Such an unthinkable idea to them. Only female dogs got fixed in their opinion.

Anyway, this new puppy makes my daughters very happy. And my wife loves on it ALL THE TIME. She is the SAHM, so she really should be the one to choose....DUH!

I really love the old Beagle. He has made me very happy over the years. But witnessing how much he made my wife UN-happy over the years has been a drain.


Me: 43
ExWW: 44
Married 16yrs. 4 children

EA (ExWW): May-Nov 2009 + Aug-Dec 2010
D-DAY JAN 30, 2011
Exposure: FEB 7, 2011
Contact Again: Apr 25, 2011
Divorce Final Sept 2012

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Originally Posted by Northwood8900
So what is your wife's position on what she is doing? Just in a quasi-limbo and mostly on the marriage side of the fence? Treading lightly, watching what you do? 90% in?
Great question. I believe her attitude has been: "Sit back and watch and wait." I even read books and articles about MC that idenitified this phenomenon. The wife sits back in MC and expects the work to "fix her husband." Its an attitude that goes like this, "We are here for you to fix my husband. I will sit back and evaluate the results."

I am a believer that approx 90% of the problems in marriage tend to be because of bad husbands. WW's so often leave to get EN's met. My personal therpaist and even Harley idenitify this over and over. A WW feels neglected and unattended to. I get it.

So she left the marriage for an A. But when we started MC it was under soooo many false pretenses. She knew about the A and so did our first MC. And everyone else around us (family/friends) I was abused for not knowing what was really happening in my life. I got suspicious, tried to figure out what was going on and was met with hostility, denial and more abuse ("you paranoid man. you have a crazy circus in your head.") and even angry outbursts.

Yes, she has been quasi-limbo, treading lightly, 90% here, watching what I do. Might you call it "having her cake and eating it too."

I think in the past two weeks she has made a decidly intentional and emotional switch to attempt to commit to love and M. This got some lip service over the past 8 or 9 months. But the $LB deposits were going through a sieve. Especially before exposure. Especially in the weeks after Exposure when she was filled to the brim (my opinion) with anger, denial, justification, defenses, damage control. And also watching me go through emotional shock, instability and turmoil.

For my part, I believe I am making a decidedly intentional and emotional shift to just being okay with myself and my day to day world. You know the drill -- focus on yourself and be the best man you can and just let her come back to you / or not -- but accept that you are a better man/husband/father now and be ready to move on in life with or without her. I have given that lip service. It takes a lot of time. But I am truly feeling that way now. Independance. Strength. My own interests. Getting my work done again. Less clingy on her. Less separation anxiety. I could survive without her. It would suck. It doesn't need to be that way. The children certainly don't deserve that. I still believe it would be selfish of mom and dad to separate.

The strength and independance makes a man more attractive. And, as many of you predicted, she begins to come back. For the past couple of weeks, I believe she has started, for the first time, to look at herself and not just at me. To examine her part in the M more (oh that brings on bouts of depression in her.) To examine the case FOR me and not just AGAINST me. To accept that I love her. To accept that I am a good husband and father and not because I am "test-driving" or giving her a "snow job" or "manipulating" (all actual phrases she has used.)

Hopefully it won't be much longer. I'll let her have her space. I am going to try not to think about the worstthat can happen and get sad about the possibility that she will still leave her family.


Me: 43
ExWW: 44
Married 16yrs. 4 children

EA (ExWW): May-Nov 2009 + Aug-Dec 2010
D-DAY JAN 30, 2011
Exposure: FEB 7, 2011
Contact Again: Apr 25, 2011
Divorce Final Sept 2012

"I want to be married and stay married. Now I uunderstand the kind of marriage I want and we all deserve. But I also know it takes two to want to Build that Marriage."
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 6,352
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Posts: 6,352
Something's wrong here.

I'm not shrink, but I don't think a careful comparison of the discontinuities in your WW's behavior requires such training.

Confirm for me the following, please:

* Your wife claims (probably was) to have been dissatisfied and unhappy with her marriage.
* This led to her EA.
* With the EA over, and your (reported) renewed efforts to be a better husband, (following MB principles, satisfying EN's) she continues to be unhappy.

But now the confusing thing:

* From what you tell us, she chooses to take no action to end her unhappiness.

Am I missing something, or does this about sum it up?

Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 717
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She is slowly taking action.

Fog is lifting. You'll have to believe me. It would not lift prior to DDay and Exposure. It would not lift after Exposure because of denial, anger, defensiveness, justification...

Fog is lifting. 2 months past exposure. Not in limbo... but not in recovery yet. Almost...


Me: 43
ExWW: 44
Married 16yrs. 4 children

EA (ExWW): May-Nov 2009 + Aug-Dec 2010
D-DAY JAN 30, 2011
Exposure: FEB 7, 2011
Contact Again: Apr 25, 2011
Divorce Final Sept 2012

"I want to be married and stay married. Now I uunderstand the kind of marriage I want and we all deserve. But I also know it takes two to want to Build that Marriage."
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 1,719
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Posts: 1,719
FWIW - Timing is exposure is the same for me - 2 months - and WW shows no sign of fog lifting. We're still stuck on anger and resentment. Can't control it.


BS(me)- 45
WW - 41
D-day 1 - (PA) 01/2011
DS - 6
Exposure: early 02/2011
Started Plan B - 7/11
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