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Originally Posted by maritalbliss
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We are in a sense the sum total of our life experiences and while it is not an excuse, I am looking more towards the factors leading up to achieving that mindset where she began thinking in a selfish way, and then acting on it.
Okeedokee, I'll give you my bona fides: I was sexually abused by multiple men and teenaged boys, starting when I was about 3-4 years old. I grew up in a poor, neglectful family with an alcoholic parent. I was the illegitimate child of a 15 year old girl.

My H? Wealthy family. Great school system. Doted upon as a child. Given opportunities. Loving parents and a supportive extended family.

Guess who had the affair.

You are distracting yourself and wasting time by pursuing this line of thought. Your WW had an affair because she had poor boundaries and an opportunity while you weren't meeting some of her needs.

Ok, I am thinking I might be a little hard-headed! I am Irish after all... :-) So no focusing on the past. The reasons her boundaries were poor aren't important as having the boundaries... Right? Sorry, this is hard. I thought, and she maintains that i was offering and attempting to meet those needs, but she refused to have them met by me. Maybe I have been fooling myself. I am the kind of person that needs to know *everything* I can about a certain situation or subject. She has suffered depression her whole life, ironically, after we began working on the marriage after D-day, she was able to get off all her meds and focus on the problems at hand. She has largely dealt with the abuse from her childhood. parent issues, etc... It isn't her focusing on these things... Honestly, it's me. I want to know *every detail of every thing* about the how and why. It leaves me unsettled that i can't fit these last few pieces in. Am I being over analytical or even worse... something else?


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Originally Posted by celticvoyager
Ok, I am thinking I might be a little hard-headed! I am Irish after all... :-) So no focusing on the past. The reasons her boundaries were poor aren't important as having the boundaries... Right?

You got it!!

Quote
Sorry, this is hard. I thought, and she maintains that i was offering and attempting to meet those needs, but she refused to have them met by me.

Right. Because she was in an affair. When a spouse is having an affair, they are emotionally cut off. She had the affair because of her poor boundaries. She allowed someone else to meet her needs.

Quote
Maybe I have been fooling myself. I am the kind of person that needs to know *everything* I can about a certain situation or subject. She has suffered depression her whole life, ironically, after we began working on the marriage after D-day, she was able to get off all her meds and focus on the problems at hand. She has largely dealt with the abuse from her childhood. parent issues, etc... It isn't her focusing on these things... Honestly, it's me. I want to know *every detail of every thing* about the how and why. It leaves me unsettled that i can't fit these last few pieces in. Am I being over analytical or even worse... something else?

I don't really understand the problem. What is leaving you unsettled?


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Sorry, this is hard. I thought, and she maintains that i was offering and attempting to meet those needs, but she refused to have them met by me.
It's hard, because you (and about every other betrayed whose ever been here) have been weaned on 'happily ever after.' We got married, promised to be faithful, threw the rice and then figured our work there was done. What we didn't realize was that our work had just begun.



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I believe that any abuse can be overcome, esp with the power of God.

I never thought to blame my A on any of the things I suffered at 11, 12, 14-16.....things I most certainly will never be sharing here.

My A was my choice. It does not, however, mitigate what I went through at those ages.

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My A was my choice. It does not, however, mitigate what I went through at those ages.
Because, again, these are separate issues. Separate. They don't belong together at all. I absolutely would not, as an adult survivor of abuse, recommend that anyone try to minimalize or trivialize the hell that I went through. Don't ever do that to me. Never.

But they ARE separate issues, and they deserve their own place in the grand plan of a person's adult attempt to make themselves whole.

What happened in childhood DOES NOT DICTATE WHETHER OR NOT YOU WILL BE FAITHFUL.

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Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Originally Posted by celticvoyager
Ok, I am thinking I might be a little hard-headed! I am Irish after all... :-) So no focusing on the past. The reasons her boundaries were poor aren't important as having the boundaries... Right?

You got it!!

Quote
Sorry, this is hard. I thought, and she maintains that i was offering and attempting to meet those needs, but she refused to have them met by me.

Right. Because she was in an affair. When a spouse is having an affair, they are emotionally cut off. She had the affair because of her poor boundaries. She allowed someone else to meet her needs.

Quote
Maybe I have been fooling myself. I am the kind of person that needs to know *everything* I can about a certain situation or subject... It leaves me unsettled that i can't fit these last few pieces in. Am I being over analytical or even worse... something else?

I don't really understand the problem. What is leaving you unsettled?

All this I know. Or at least intellectually I think I do. I guess really the issue for me is now I have all this in my head, and am starting to walk out my end, I feel the need to fix the past stuff as well. Know the reasons, all the surrounding circumstances. This woman in spite of her two affairs has literally been through hell with me. She stood beside me faithfully and patiently when I came back from the 1st gulf war (I was really screwed up for a few years), she has stood by me when our daughter was born missing her arm, tons of other stuff... My tendency is to see everything in light of the EM's... I'm trying to get past this in my head. This forum is the first group I have talked to about any of this.


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Hi Marital bliss,

I believe so. I have read everything in the surviving and affair section. I have also read a number of other things here too. I need to make notes. maybe post-its.


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Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Originally Posted by celticvoyager
So where does that leave us? I dont want to spend the next 20 years of my marriage with the same strictures she has had for the last 3 years. I am not sure that is healthy for either of us.

It would be unhealthy to not have these strictures in place. What was not healthy was the pre-affair state, because it led to an affair. Like Dr Harley said, "Lack of trust does not make spouses paranoid and miserable, it makes their marriages safe."

I think what might be lacking in your marriage is a plan to restore the romantic love and an absence of balanced decision making that is based on both your input. That makes it seem like a lop sided marriage, where you are the daddy and she is the child? Does it seem like that?

Ugh. yes it does, a lot of the time. At this point the problem is me. I am largely not really interested in romance, though I can make the effort and often do. I am finding that as the feelings settle, I'm just not terribly interested in more than a friendship. She's working her butt off to be romantic, she's interested in me. The first 2 years after d-day the sex was great, we were romantic, and I dunno. something's wrong with me I guess. In my head.


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Originally Posted by Tawandabelle
I believe that any abuse can be overcome, esp with the power of God.

I never thought to blame my A on any of the things I suffered at 11, 12, 14-16.....things I most certainly will never be sharing here.

My A was my choice. It does not, however, mitigate what I went through at those ages.

ciao
Tawanda,

Thanks, While I don't believe they are necessarily separate, I do believe they can be dealt with separately. I do want to be clear... My wife never blamed it on the abuse. This is a route I decided to look into. It was my effort to find the underlying problems brought into the marriage, the baggage and such that help set the environment in addition to regular marital problems and the bigger ones that can be near disastrous that are simply circumstances of life...


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Originally Posted by celticvoyager
Ugh. yes it does, a lot of the time. At this point the problem is me. I am largely not really interested in romance, though I can make the effort and often do. I am finding that as the feelings settle, I'm just not terribly interested in more than a friendship. She's working her butt off to be romantic, she's interested in me. The first 2 years after d-day the sex was great, we were romantic, and I dunno. something's wrong with me I guess. In my head.

There is no plan in place to restore the romantic love. That is why you are still so hung up on the affair. I am very worried about your wife. If she is staying out of a sense of guilt and pennance, you won't be able to hold her there for long. No one can pay forever.

I would NEVER bring up this affair again to her. NEVER. It should never come up. Every time it comes up, you trigger yourself and HER. It just adds misery and despair to the marriage.

Rather, focus on creating romantic love in your marriage. Your marriage can become the greatest joy of your life if you turn this around. It is much harder to have a bad marriage than a good marriage. We know how to do this if you will just follow the steps in Marriage Builders.


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Originally Posted by MelodyLane
There is no plan in place to restore the romantic love. That is why you are still so hung up on the affair. I am very worried about your wife. If she is staying out of a sense of guilt and pennance, you won't be able to hold her there for long. No one can pay forever.

I would NEVER bring up this affair again to her. NEVER. It should never come up. Every time it comes up, you trigger yourself and HER. It just adds misery and despair to the marriage.

Rather, focus on creating romantic love in your marriage. Your marriage can become the greatest joy of your life if you turn this around. It is much harder to have a bad marriage than a good marriage. We know how to do this if you will just follow the steps in Marriage Builders.


We are looking at the policy of joint agreement right now. We do need a plan. I agree. I will ask her why she's here. She has told me that she's here because she loves me, I have at times encouraged her to leave and given her the opportunity. She says she wants to stay. I don't bring up her leaving anymore (in about a year), Some days I don't mention the A at all. the plan needs to get going. She is reading it right now.

I guess this is the crux... After 2 A's do I still want to be married to her. We have been together since we were teenagers. I love her and enjoy her company (always have, even in bad times). But has this just been too much... That's what i'm trying to figure out.


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Originally Posted by celticvoyager
[
We are looking at the policy of joint agreement right now. We do need a plan. I agree. I will ask her why she's here. She has told me that she's here because she loves me, I have at times encouraged her to leave and given her the opportunity. She says she wants to stay. I don't bring up her leaving anymore (in about a year), Some days I don't mention the A at all. the plan needs to get going. She is reading it right now.

I guess this is the crux... After 2 A's do I still want to be married to her. We have been together since we were teenagers. I love her and enjoy her company (always have, even in bad times). But has this just been too much... That's what i'm trying to figure out.

This can be turned around and you can overcome your resentment. Really. You just need to replace the wound with a romantic, safe, passionate marriage. I would get these 2 books and follow the lessons in them, Lovebusters, Surviving an Affair. Get the workbook [Five Steps to Romantic Love] and use the questionaires in there. In your situation, I would start with the book Lovebusters and follow the lessons in there.

The biggest red flag I see is that you are still bringing up the affair. That is very harmful to your marriage and keeps you triggered. Trust me on that, I dragged out my recovery by about 2 extra years because I kept bringing it up. I would pledge to never bring it up again.

I would start by eliminating Lovebusters first and then move onto the lessons in SAA, especially POJA. When you get to the Policy of Joint Agreement, you might let us help you with that. You are Irish, after all, so it could get ugly! grin

Another thing you can start doing now that will make massive lovebank deposits is scheduling 20+ hours of undivided attention time. The time should be spent ALONE, with no TV meeting the top 4 intimate emotional needs: conversation, affection, rec companionship, and sexual fulfillment. This step will make the fastest, most impactful difference in your marriage if you do it right. The Policy of Undivided Attention


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Ok Melody Is giving you GREAT advice.

After 2 A's do I still want to be married to
her


That is something that we BH's with multiples think to our-selfs often. I suggest you literally sit down and write a pro and con list of what moving on to a D would look like. I think you may find your answer there. I did and the pro's FAR out-weighted the Con's.

Dwelling and over Analyzing. Yep thats me. I struggle with it too. It helps neither of us. Acceptance of what it was and looking to the future is my plan. Your wife has payed her penance and if you love her and want a great Marriage then quit all the wondering and get to work on you M and give your wife the loving husband that it sounds like she deserves. Start working at restoring romantic love there. Sounds like the only other issue is the resentment. THROW IT AWAY!


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Originally Posted by MelodyLane
This can be turned around and you can overcome your resentment. Really. You just need to replace the wound with a romantic, safe, passionate marriage. I would get these 2 books and follow the lessons in them, Lovebusters, Surviving an Affair. Get the workbook [Five Steps to Romantic Love] and use the questionaires in there. In your situation, I would start with the book Lovebusters and follow the lessons in there.

The biggest red flag I see is that you are still bringing up the affair. That is very harmful to your marriage and keeps you triggered. Trust me on that, I dragged out my recovery by about 2 extra years because I kept bringing it up. I would pledge to never bring it up again.

I would start by eliminating Lovebusters first and then move onto the lessons in SAA, especially POJA. When you get to the Policy of Joint Agreement, you might let us help you with that. You are Irish, after all, so it could get ugly! grin

Another thing you can start doing now that will make massive lovebank deposits is scheduling 20+ hours of undivided attention time. The time should be spent ALONE, with no TV meeting the top 4 intimate emotional needs: conversation, affection, rec companionship, and sexual fulfillment. This step will make the fastest, most impactful difference in your marriage if you do it right. The Policy of Undivided Attention

OK. I am breaking down and getting the book on payday. I am doing the questionaire later today and we will go over the policy (which we actually had something similar in place before the A. We called it the Marquis of Queensbury Rules for fighting. Basically it was "fight fair, fight honest, try never be angry")together this evening. I need to relearn some bad habits I learned in the last 3 years. Whoo. this is gonna be a lot of work on my end (why is it always the BS who has the hardest work?). I will post the policy when we get it going.


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Originally Posted by onemoretime
Ok Melody Is giving you GREAT advice.

After 2 A's do I still want to be married to
her


That is something that we BH's with multiples think to our-selfs often. I suggest you literally sit down and write a pro and con list of what moving on to a D would look like. I think you may find your answer there. I did and the pro's FAR out-weighted the Con's.

Dwelling and over Analyzing. Yep thats me. I struggle with it too. It helps neither of us. Acceptance of what it was and looking to the future is my plan. Your wife has payed her penance and if you love her and want a great Marriage then quit all the wondering and get to work on you M and give your wife the loving husband that it sounds like she deserves. Start working at restoring romantic love there. Sounds like the only other issue is the resentment. THROW IT AWAY!


Ok. Great idea. I will start the list today. I really am grateful for all the advice. One thing that had stuck in my brain was that we read so many sites and such where marriages just failed. We didn't know there were so many that succeeded. That is wonderful wonderful news.

On a practical note... What does throwing resentment away look like? Is it simply forcing it out by doing other stuff like the LB deposits? Not focusing on what happened, but on fixing it. How can u focus on fixing without thinking about the past? Any advice on that would be a blessing!

CV


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CV,

You asked
Quote
What does throwing resentment away look like? Is it simply forcing it out by doing other stuff like the LB deposits? Not focusing on what happened, but on fixing it. How can u focus on fixing without thinking about the past? Any advice on that would be a blessing!
Here is a famous quote
Quote
Resentment is like taking poison and waiting for the other person to die.l


Quit sipping from the poisoned cup. Your resentment is not hurting your W as much as it is hurting you. You are reading the info here at MB, you are going to get the books, you have survived your W having two affairs, right?

So where to from here. Well it seems to me, that you turn to your faith with...your eyes wide open. You know what has happened, what could happen, but you also know that you can draw strength from your faith. What should you fear?

I would say you have less to fear than you realize. YOu are already thinking of the possibility of divorce, so that concept is not overwhelming to you. But, CelticVoyager, have you really thought about the concept of success? Are you afraid of success?

Between your faith, the tools you have here at your disposal, and the KNOWN FACT that your W actually wants to remain married to you (never mind that she has cheated in the past), it would seem you are in a strong position to succeed.

What will stop you? Most likely YOUR FEAR.

Your W has agreed to the rather controlling extraordinary precautions that you have set for her. Do you think that this way of living will be acceptable to you in the long run? Do you think that you will feel that her love is given freely with this situation? Do you think this is the image of a good W that you want in your life?

Notice I did not ask about her, I am asking about you. The very measures you have set will constantly remind you of the past when in fact it is the future you should be addressing. I AM NOT SAYING THE YOU AND SHE SHOULD NOT TAKE EXTRAORDINARY PRECAUSTIONS. I am saying that they should blend into both of your lives in a way that allows both of you to move forward. Think about this carefully.

Being a man of faith you of all people know that the word love, is not properly defined in english, but better defined in Greek, where the word love is actually three words. Love first and foremost is an action. It is something you do toward other people and that is why we can legitimately promise to love someone for the rest of our lives when we marry. You promise to treat her in a loving manner, and there are no BUT's. Are you? Can you? Will you?

If the answer to these three is no, then perhaps you should file for divorce.

CV, you control yourself not those around you. She is with you right now because she wants to be, she does not need to be punished to remain, but she should be enticed to remain. Will she cheat again? I have not clue, but I know the odds are diminished when she is loved, when she explores what she really wants in life, and you explore what you really want in your life.

CelticVoyager, life is a team sport and each of you has to decide if you want to be a team. If you do, the tools here will definitely help you both achieve a level of intimacy in your marriage that perhaps has not been there before.

Think about it, pray about it.

God Bless,

JL

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Originally Posted by celticvoyager
[ We called it the Marquis of Queensbury Rules for fighting. Basically it was "fight fair, fight honest, try never be angry")together this evening.

Here is a better plan: DON'T FIGHT. Stop it. Do not fight anymore. That is terrible for your marriage and is part of the reason you are not in love anymore. Don't fight.


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Originally Posted by celticvoyager
On a practical note... What does throwing resentment away look like? Is it simply forcing it out by doing other stuff like the LB deposits? Not focusing on what happened, but on fixing it. How can u focus on fixing without thinking about the past? Any advice on that would be a blessing!

When you shift your focus to a plan of recovery and STOP dwelling on the past, you will feel better. But by bringing it up like you do, you are keeping yourself triggered and angry. When you are triggered and angry, you are not in love. Your resentment will fade if you stop doing this dance.

Also, you can get a free book if you email Dr Harley on his radio show and ask his advice. You will get great advice for FREE and he sends you a free book, too. Just click on the radio link at the top.

You are doing great!


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Originally Posted by Just Learning
CV,

You asked
Quote
What does throwing resentment away look like? Is it simply forcing it out by doing other stuff like the LB deposits? Not focusing on what happened, but on fixing it. How can u focus on fixing without thinking about the past? Any advice on that would be a blessing!
Here is a famous quote
Quote
Resentment is like taking poison and waiting for the other person to die.l


Wise words. And not easy to swallow. I am filling out the questionnaires and we are going to go through them together. I guess I needed someone to tell me to pull my head out!

CV
Quit sipping from the poisoned cup. Your resentment is not hurting your W as much as it is hurting you. You are reading the info here at MB, you are going to get the books, you have survived your W having two affairs, right?

So where to from here. Well it seems to me, that you turn to your faith with...your eyes wide open. You know what has happened, what could happen, but you also know that you can draw strength from your faith. What should you fear?

I would say you have less to fear than you realize. YOu are already thinking of the possibility of divorce, so that concept is not overwhelming to you. But, CelticVoyager, have you really thought about the concept of success? Are you afraid of success?

Between your faith, the tools you have here at your disposal, and the KNOWN FACT that your W actually wants to remain married to you (never mind that she has cheated in the past), it would seem you are in a strong position to succeed.

What will stop you? Most likely YOUR FEAR.

Your W has agreed to the rather controlling extraordinary precautions that you have set for her. Do you think that this way of living will be acceptable to you in the long run? Do you think that you will feel that her love is given freely with this situation? Do you think this is the image of a good W that you want in your life?

Notice I did not ask about her, I am asking about you. The very measures you have set will constantly remind you of the past when in fact it is the future you should be addressing. I AM NOT SAYING THE YOU AND SHE SHOULD NOT TAKE EXTRAORDINARY PRECAUSTIONS. I am saying that they should blend into both of your lives in a way that allows both of you to move forward. Think about this carefully.

Being a man of faith you of all people know that the word love, is not properly defined in english, but better defined in Greek, where the word love is actually three words. Love first and foremost is an action. It is something you do toward other people and that is why we can legitimately promise to love someone for the rest of our lives when we marry. You promise to treat her in a loving manner, and there are no BUT's. Are you? Can you? Will you?

If the answer to these three is no, then perhaps you should file for divorce.

CV, you control yourself not those around you. She is with you right now because she wants to be, she does not need to be punished to remain, but she should be enticed to remain. Will she cheat again? I have not clue, but I know the odds are diminished when she is loved, when she explores what she really wants in life, and you explore what you really want in your life.

CelticVoyager, life is a team sport and each of you has to decide if you want to be a team. If you do, the tools here will definitely help you both achieve a level of intimacy in your marriage that perhaps has not been there before.

Think about it, pray about it.

God Bless,

JL


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Originally Posted by MelodyLane
When you shift your focus to a plan of recovery and STOP dwelling on the past, you will feel better. But by bringing it up like you do, you are keeping yourself triggered and angry. When you are triggered and angry, you are not in love. Your resentment will fade if you stop doing this dance.

Also, you can get a free book if you email Dr Harley on his radio show and ask his advice. You will get great advice for FREE and he sends you a free book, too. Just click on the radio link at the top.

You are doing great!

Ok. I will call in when the kids aren't hanging around (aren't teenagers supposed to want to be somewhere besides where there parents are??) The idea of triggering my own anger has been revelatory. I hadn't considered it. We spent so much time focusing on my wife that I really haven't spent any time on myself.

To the person who posted the biblical Greek usage for love... Thanks. It gets my study brain going and though i am not a great exegete, I think I get by with the greek. I will dig into it some more.

CV


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