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It's a little above my pay=grade (I'm not a psychologist, nor do I play one on TV) but I'm not sure I buy any connection between childhood abuse and a predisposition to having an affair.

While I think any abuse certainly influences our outlook on life, I don't think people have affairs because "daddy beat me" or anything like that. Rather, it's just a lack of boundaries like anyone else. Sure, you can navel gaze and blame everything else on where you are in life, but, at some point, you have to admit that it's your own choice on how you want to live.

You're right, there is another thread going with a similar line. I think marital offered a good post comparing her childhood to the relatively posh upbringing of her husband. Guess which one had the affair.

So, let her explore what happened during childhood and let her take responsibility and show remorse/shame for the affair, but I'd make a mental note to watch for any deflection to childhood abuse in regards to reasons behind having an affair. I'd fly under the radar for now, though, with that as I think you're both getting on the right track--perhaps for the first time.


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Originally Posted by stretch123
Yup. Let her take her time to unravel the fog and nonsense about the past couple years. Also, start thinking about incredibly important life history. This opening up about sexual abuse at 5yr and 18yr is real stuff. Important work. I know she will make it through! I hope I understand my role. I am willing to read and study whatever I can. I just blew past it when we talked in our twenties.

What about that "shame" angle? This stuff came out because she was thinking about feeling "shame" for her actions the past two years.

Is she deflecting that? Onto some very real and important stuff to be sure. I mean, this is not small potatoes. This life history matters to both of us and I want to help her process once and for all and heal. But what about dealing with the "shame" of the actions of the A?

While this exploration may have some positives, this positives will only manifest if WW owns up to her choices. No matter our personal history, we have choices.

I know that in my case, FWW's history lead to her low value for SF. And that lowered.Value was carried into our M.

All the navel-gazing in the world will not take back a poor choice.


"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Niels Bohr

"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer

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Originally Posted by Northwood8900
..While I think any abuse certainly influences our outlook on life, I don't think people have affairs because "daddy beat me" or anything like that. Rather, it's just a lack of boundaries like anyone else. Sure, you can navel gaze and blame everything else on where you are in life, but, at some point, you have to admit that it's your own choice on how you want to live...

There is the freedom we all must learn in that statement, that right now we have choices.

It is something I atribute to how are minds look for safety, when I think about poor treatment by other people. I mean when it comes down to running away, or cashing in our chips on other people and responsibilities, and also how our habits have developed over time, how we have acted in the past, or the excuses we have been afforded and accepted.

Then there are the people who tell us the truth, and we are making excuses, that we blame and say, "You just don't understand!". Those people are many times, not all mind you, attempting to give you freedom from the mire you are stuck in, even in thier anger and reaction to what you are doing, and in their fear of the consequences of it.

But objectivly, the truth hurts and at the same time can set us free, if we are willing to take control of our thoughts and actions. Its the lies that make us believe, "Thats just the way we are", when the freedom of a good decision is right there leading down a road to personal recovery. Complacency and comfort can kill our growth, such as many of us have learned when we got married and thought the challanges were over and we were all set in the the learning about love and how to do it. Its just another begining to learn, and a priveledge at that, to be let in on the nature of it.

I was not ready to marry both times I did, and that was my fault, and neither were the women I married, and I take responsibility for that also. I knew what I needed to do to be ready, and ignored it. It was my own responsibilty to be honest and to be happy and adjust, making the right priorities, sad to say, I failed, but it doesn't mean I wasn't ready really, it means I didn't listen. Mostly to myself.

Personal recovery is the key to relationship recovery. In the end you should be secure enough to love and want the best for each other. No matter what that takes, without destroying yourself in the process. If both people are at that place, you will protect and respect each other, because you respect yourself.

In order to listen to garble about how your past makes you who you are now, and believe it, you have to chain yourself to it also. Yes you can understand how it effected you and what you learned from it, but to let it dominate your descisions about what you want to do now, is slavery. Let the one who died on the cross for our sins and blindness bear that burden that we cannot bear anyways, we can't figure it out from the inside, the help comes from outside ourselves. Get ticked that you were fooled, and make a decision to start the path to new days.

I agree let the stuff run its course, and maybe pick out the triggers and poor decisions made in the learned emotional reactions from the past, but remember that we were not meant to be victims, and that change from the painful past is allways just a decision away every day.

Life is a journey, good to find your thread.



Me 56 Former BS
Widowed 5-17-09 --married 25 years.
4 children
DS-35 previous marriage--18-22 DGrandSons 6 and 4
Me former BS
DD-29 with DGDs 5 and 1yr
DSs 26 and 23
Teilhard de Chardin..“We are not human beings having a spiritual experience. We are spiritual beings having a human experience.” ...Sounds about right to me.
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Reading about the shame issue made my heart break Strech. There is a special place in hell for those who abuse children. Thank you for being so tender and helping though this.

There is probably a lot of issues that developed for her in this, its good that you are exploring and dealing with this.

God Bless you guys.

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I knew the abuse history was there for her. I sensed it was unresolved. I wondered if she was dealing with that with her PC. Evidently not as it just came up in the past week. She says she actually couldn't even remember if, when or how she had talked to me about it in the past. Even though it was fifteen years ago I remember quite vividly what she told me. Not unusual I suppose that she can't remember telling me. But I remember she definitely did.

So I am going to study. Walk through the aisles at the library and read about abuse. And be there for her. Its a $LB opportunity. I enjoy giving her love units. Its what I want to do.

Slowly, slowly her fog might be cracking and she might be fighting her demons to come back to me. I think I am working too hard too often. Just gotta give it some space.

Doing my hard core workouts helps a lot! It makes me feel so good to have that to look forward to, dedicate an hour plus to. Its just for me. At first I thought, "Maybe she will notice me." Yeah, that's minor. But AS is supposedly her #10 EN. Then, some guy friends point out, "You have animal instinct... i.e. get your body ready for the market." Yeah, maybe. Helps me feel confident knowing I'll be okay on the open market again.

Mostly though, I just LOVE the endorphines and the rush and the high of having a really hard workout. My brain and body feel so much better for 24hours.

My therapist said, "I would go out of business if I got all my patients to exercise."


Me: 43
ExWW: 44
Married 16yrs. 4 children

EA (ExWW): May-Nov 2009 + Aug-Dec 2010
D-DAY JAN 30, 2011
Exposure: FEB 7, 2011
Contact Again: Apr 25, 2011
Divorce Final Sept 2012

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stretch - great job on the exercise routine! I'm a firm believer in it, although I can't hold a candle to you. I only exercise for about 20-30 minutes - 5 times a week - that's the goal anyway.


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Thx andy.

Just got home from two day business trip. Have a sitter planned and a date. Hope she wants to connect with me.


Me: 43
ExWW: 44
Married 16yrs. 4 children

EA (ExWW): May-Nov 2009 + Aug-Dec 2010
D-DAY JAN 30, 2011
Exposure: FEB 7, 2011
Contact Again: Apr 25, 2011
Divorce Final Sept 2012

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Not the greatest date. I wanted her to pick everything. Let her decide what we would do, eat, etc. It wasn't easy. She says she feels controlled, but she doesn't know what she wants to do.

She decided to get her laptop and look up some writing contest scores while we sat at the coffee shop. She was judged harshly and that made her really, really sad and depressed. She just cried and cried. I just tried to listen and empathize as much as I want to problem solve. When I finally said, "I wish for you to see me as a safe place to land, someone who is here to help, trust, and share with." She said, "I just can't right now."

"What can I do?" I asked. And OH BOY!!! She went to the place of treating husband like the enemy. Out came some saved up ammunition.

This, I think is the pattern: she feels down, depressed, low self esteem, can't break out, and she latches on to ALL the stories, and the saved up complaints about hubby. I felt attacked. I should learn to leave her alone when the depression is so bad she can't break out of the crying.

ONE)
A pretty fair observation, under more loving circumstances I would take this as a gift but when we're vulnerable and depressed, I don't need five minutes of this...

"Did you tell the kids you were going out of town for two days? I need you to think of them? To have a relati0nship with them? They should know you're leaving, where you're going, what you're doing. I shouldn't have to explain why daddy is gone, where he is. That's IB."

TWO)
Totally petty.

"And you left without helping DS #1 deliver his final Scout Troop fundraising order. Why do I have to figure out how the last neighbor gets their order."

OMG sooo petty. I worked with him for weeks on his fundraiser. He made so much progress vs YrAgo. Put on his uniform, walked the whole negihborhood, spent a Sunday at church together gathering orders, we delivered dozens of orders together in the neighborhood. He just had one order left... HIS responsibility. And she had to remind him. In a parenting partnership, that little sort of thing happens. Its not a nail inthe M coffin. Geez.

THREE)
Totally poisonous language that I am so hurt by:

"I allowed myself to be taken advantage of for years. You were horrible for fifteen years. I finally felt unloved and unlovable. I was so disrespected and abused and taken advantage of, I even was raped by a man when I was 18. And you just loved me since September? How can I heal from 15 years of feeling taken advantage of by you, disrespected and unloved."

OWWW. That revisionism is so painful, so poisonous. Is that going to be our truth?? When we are 70years old will we say, "Oh we have a great marriage now, but for the first fifteen years he was disrespectful, took advantage of her, made her feel unloved...."

She is latching onto that as some kind of truth. And its just awful to hear that. Cruel. She doesn't realize the risk and the damage. I have sooo owned up to my bad husbanding behavior. But I never "un-loved" her. I was never cruel intentionally. I never left the marriage. She can't forgive herself or like herself right now. That's the problem. Lashing out at husband is just too familiar.

But the risk is how much damage can I endure while she processes??? How many things could she say that will hurt me too much and never be able to repair???

Last edited by stretch123; 05/13/11 03:49 PM.

Me: 43
ExWW: 44
Married 16yrs. 4 children

EA (ExWW): May-Nov 2009 + Aug-Dec 2010
D-DAY JAN 30, 2011
Exposure: FEB 7, 2011
Contact Again: Apr 25, 2011
Divorce Final Sept 2012

"I want to be married and stay married. Now I uunderstand the kind of marriage I want and we all deserve. But I also know it takes two to want to Build that Marriage."
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Originally Posted by ConstantProcess
Personal recovery is the key to relationship recovery. In the end you should be secure enough to love and want the best for each other. No matter what that takes, without destroying yourself in the process.

Yessir. We shouldn't destroy ourselves in this process.


Me: 43
ExWW: 44
Married 16yrs. 4 children

EA (ExWW): May-Nov 2009 + Aug-Dec 2010
D-DAY JAN 30, 2011
Exposure: FEB 7, 2011
Contact Again: Apr 25, 2011
Divorce Final Sept 2012

"I want to be married and stay married. Now I uunderstand the kind of marriage I want and we all deserve. But I also know it takes two to want to Build that Marriage."
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Originally Posted by stretch123
THREE)
Totally poisonous language that I am so hurt by:

"I allowed myself to be taken advantage of for years. You were horrible for fifteen years. I finally felt unloved and unlovable. I was so disrespected and abused and taken advantage of, I even was raped by a man when I was 18. And you just loved me since September? How can I heal from 15 years of feeling taken advantage of by you, disrespected and unloved."

OWWW. That revisionism is so painful, so poisonous. Is that going to be our truth?? When we are 70years old will we say, "Oh we have a great marriage now, but for the first fifteen years he was disrespectful, took advantage of her, made her feel unloved...."

She is latching onto that as some kind of truth. And its just awful to hear that. Cruel. She doesn't realize the risk and the damage. I have sooo owned up to my bad husbanding behavior. But I never "un-loved" her. I was never cruel intentionally. I never left the marriage. She can't forgive herself or like herself right now. That's the problem. Lashing out at husband is just too familiar.

But the risk is how much damage can I endure while she processes??? How many things could she say that will hurt me too much and never be able to repair???

Hmmmmm...... how did you respond?


Formerly ConfuzedHusband
BH
WW (Now XW)
Married 4 years, No children.
EA/PA from 2/2008 to 5/2008.
DDay: 5/17/2008 - Separated 6/1/2008 - Filed 8/3/2008
Divorce final 3/2009.

Now in a committed relationship with a woman of character who loves me so much better and deeper than I ever dreamed possible. I had no idea what I was missing out on and am so grateful God gave me a free "second chance" at love and life.
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Last night I went upstairs after our talk where she attacked me. Had myself a cry. Did my one hour workout. Took a xanax. She was semi sweet when she came to bed -- thanked me for getting the sitter.

Today I processed. I wrote the above recap. And I just talked to her about all of this an hour ago. I spent two minutes. Our MC taught us a rule: Ask the other to just sit and witness. You only get a minute.

I took two minutes. I went through one-two-three above and stopped. She locked herself away and cried. She said she is very distressed and hurt by the world in general. She left for a planned sleepover with gf's. Oh yeah, and she said maybe we shouldnt talk alone... without our MC I guess.

But I feel I am not a doormat. Honest about my feelings. She was depressed really bad and the pattern is: dig out some saved up ammo about bad hubby. Make this M recovery seem impossible. I am learning I just need to be present and available, but keep a distance when she hits that level of crying and depression.

Last edited by stretch123; 05/13/11 10:41 PM.

Me: 43
ExWW: 44
Married 16yrs. 4 children

EA (ExWW): May-Nov 2009 + Aug-Dec 2010
D-DAY JAN 30, 2011
Exposure: FEB 7, 2011
Contact Again: Apr 25, 2011
Divorce Final Sept 2012

"I want to be married and stay married. Now I uunderstand the kind of marriage I want and we all deserve. But I also know it takes two to want to Build that Marriage."
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Originally Posted by stretch123
Yessir. We shouldn't destroy ourselves in this process.

Yeah Stretch it sounds like it was put to the challange on that date too.

So I guess you are learning how to comunicate feelings and needs to each other, and its s rough start.

I wish I had some advise but it sounds like for now there is a lot of things being aired out.

Hang in there bro this stuff takes time.

God Bless

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Originally Posted by stretch123
She said she is very distressed and hurt by the world in general.

The world did not cause her problems, her choices did.

doh2


"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Niels Bohr

"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer

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Sad tonight. But stronger.
Why can I try so hard to be considerate and do all the right things, say the right things. Be generous and kind and compassionate and caring and really put my heart out there to love her and help her but just end up with NO love units get deposited?

The rejection is heartbreaking. I've never broken up with a girl. I never lost a girl. Never loved anyone before. Never had my heart broken. She is my first and only. And I am rejected and so sad.

I am gonna go have a cry... then do a workout for an hour. Then take another xanax and try to sleep. Tomorrow its me and the four kids. We will get out and buy some new clothes, do some yardwork, see a movie...

Last edited by stretch123; 05/13/11 10:42 PM.

Me: 43
ExWW: 44
Married 16yrs. 4 children

EA (ExWW): May-Nov 2009 + Aug-Dec 2010
D-DAY JAN 30, 2011
Exposure: FEB 7, 2011
Contact Again: Apr 25, 2011
Divorce Final Sept 2012

"I want to be married and stay married. Now I uunderstand the kind of marriage I want and we all deserve. But I also know it takes two to want to Build that Marriage."
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Originally Posted by stretch123
ONE)
A pretty fair observation, under more loving circumstances I would take this as a gift but when we're vulnerable and depressed, I don't need five minutes of this...

"Did you tell the kids you were going out of town for two days? I need you to think of them? To have a relati0nship with them? They should know you're leaving, where you're going, what you're doing. I shouldn't have to explain why daddy is gone, where he is. That's IB."

TWO)
Totally petty.

"And you left without helping DS #1 deliver his final Scout Troop fundraising order. Why do I have to figure out how the last neighbor gets their order."

OMG sooo petty. I worked with him for weeks on his fundraiser. He made so much progress vs YrAgo. Put on his uniform, walked the whole negihborhood, spent a Sunday at church together gathering orders, we delivered dozens of orders together in the neighborhood. He just had one order left... HIS responsibility. And she had to remind him. In a parenting partnership, that little sort of thing happens. Its not a nail inthe M coffin. Geez.

THREE)
Totally poisonous language that I am so hurt by:

"I allowed myself to be taken advantage of for years. You were horrible for fifteen years. I finally felt unloved and unlovable. I was so disrespected and abused and taken advantage of, I even was raped by a man when I was 18. And you just loved me since September? How can I heal from 15 years of feeling taken advantage of by you, disrespected and unloved."

ONE- Try to do better in the FC department-sounds like it's a thing for her.

TWO- A bit of a stretch here (sorry for the pun) but maybe you didn't explain to her how the fundraiser delivery was supposed to work?

THREE- She's just being honest there, you know, but tossing such a rhetorical question at you hardly seems fair.

But while you have some DJ's of your own there, her delivery method completely stinks and I don't blame you at all for feeling pretty attacked here.

Is that MC not working with you both on how to communicate without all this extra baggage being heaped on? You two sound like me and my wife-- just one little offhanded and often innocent remark would get us both escalating the situation.

The idea she mentioned about talking about marriage topics only with the MC seems to have some merit. It's like both of y'all admit that your conversation skills are lacking, but neither of you know just how to get off the crazy train. Have y'all (sorry, "you guys") talked about that and the seemingly common ground that you share here?

Oh, next time you pick the date and do all the scheduling, etc. I seem to remember hearing that women tend to appreciate that kind of thing. smile


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Originally Posted by stretch123
The rejection is heartbreaking. I've never broken up with a girl. I never lost a girl. Never loved anyone before. Never had my heart broken. She is my first and only. And I am rejected and so sad.

Hang in there buddy. If she's your first, that explains a lot. Get rid of the fear of breaking up, know you'll be okay either way, and know that most people date multiple people before marriage for a reason. First loves are hard - different.... but in the end, she's just a woman. There's plenty of others out there. And trust me, finding one who actually loves you and has good character is easier, WAY easier than I imagine you think it is. I've been where you've stood.

And right now I'm with a women who would go to the ends of the earth for me, and I for her.

I'm not advising divorce for you, necessarily. But I AM encouraging you to work on getting rid of the FEAR, the power she has over your mental health. You CAN do it.

By the way, I like your new quote MUCH better than your old one.

Be strong!
Arpeggi


Formerly ConfuzedHusband
BH
WW (Now XW)
Married 4 years, No children.
EA/PA from 2/2008 to 5/2008.
DDay: 5/17/2008 - Separated 6/1/2008 - Filed 8/3/2008
Divorce final 3/2009.

Now in a committed relationship with a woman of character who loves me so much better and deeper than I ever dreamed possible. I had no idea what I was missing out on and am so grateful God gave me a free "second chance" at love and life.
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Originally Posted by stretch123
Sad tonight. But stronger.
Why can I try so hard to be considerate and do all the right things, say the right things. Be generous and kind and compassionate and caring and really put my heart out there to love her and help her but just end up with NO love units get deposited?

The rejection is heartbreaking. I've never broken up with a girl. I never lost a girl. Never loved anyone before. Never had my heart broken. She is my first and only. And I am rejected and so sad.

I am gonna go have a cry... then do a workout for an hour. Then take another xanax and try to sleep. Tomorrow its me and the four kids. We will get out and buy some new clothes, do some yardwork, see a movie...

Hi, stretch, I just saw your post about UA time on HHH's thread and wanted to pop over to see what was going on in your thread.

Sorry for what you are going through, that was tough to read. {{stetch}}

Your W has ended her A but still hasn't recommited herself to the M and you are still in Plan A, is that right? How long do you plan to do that for?


Ddays 2007 and 2011
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Originally Posted by Arpeggi
By the way, I like your new quote MUCH better than your old one.

I second that.

Stretch... her digging up the past is irrelevant. She just keeps continuing to try to justify her withdrawal, her cruelty, and her affair.

I know... I KNOW... that even though it's fog-talk, even though it's total bovine excrement, that it still HURTS. But, you have to start to process it.

You have to begin to process YOURSELF stretch. Do you know who YOU are now? Do you know who YOU are capable of being? Do you know who YOU are going to try to be, every day for the rest of your life?

Reverse that situation, stretch. If you were to continually bring up her past faults and point them at her, how well would that work?

The emotional blackmail has to end, bud.



Just my opinion, Stretch, but the most important part of recovery is personal recovery. We need to be the best that we can be, so that we have something worth sharing with our spouse.


Get up out of the mud, dust yourself off, check your N.U.T.s, and get to work!


"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Niels Bohr

"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer

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Thanks HHH
You know Stuart Smalley is now my US Senator.

Her past hurts. She is digging it up and trying to figure out what happened to the 5yr old girl and the 18yr old girl. I am afraid its deflection for current work. Who is the 41yr old woman? Who was the 39yr old woman that chased an A? But, yeah it was buried and now its coming back up.

My PC points out that I am really ready to move on. Forgiveness is there. For her. For myself. I want a future, not a past.

My wife knows that she has a ton of "stories" and "filters" that she cannot seem to let go. Too much noise in her head and she is sorting. She doesn't know who SHE is.

THis is fog cracking. If I work on myself and be the man I'd like to be, I bet she will get her attic organized on her own and work on a future with me.

Last edited by stretch123; 05/14/11 10:34 AM.

Me: 43
ExWW: 44
Married 16yrs. 4 children

EA (ExWW): May-Nov 2009 + Aug-Dec 2010
D-DAY JAN 30, 2011
Exposure: FEB 7, 2011
Contact Again: Apr 25, 2011
Divorce Final Sept 2012

"I want to be married and stay married. Now I uunderstand the kind of marriage I want and we all deserve. But I also know it takes two to want to Build that Marriage."
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@ NW

On EN's : FC is her #1 and CO is her #2. You can see the trouble in the above one-two-three.

MC helps us with conversation. Its 45 minutes out of the 35 hours a week however.

I still think you are incredibly insightful NW!


Me: 43
ExWW: 44
Married 16yrs. 4 children

EA (ExWW): May-Nov 2009 + Aug-Dec 2010
D-DAY JAN 30, 2011
Exposure: FEB 7, 2011
Contact Again: Apr 25, 2011
Divorce Final Sept 2012

"I want to be married and stay married. Now I uunderstand the kind of marriage I want and we all deserve. But I also know it takes two to want to Build that Marriage."
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