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ITL

Hey, perhaps we should be polite & start a new discussion since we've wandered away from HHH's chosen topic.

Sorry HHH

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Originally Posted by Pepperband
ITL

Hey, perhaps we should be polite & start a new discussion since we've wandered away from HHH's chosen topic.

Sorry HHH

Pfff, NP Pep.

The only thing that bothered me was a sneaking suspicion that I might be lumped in with "some people."

crazy


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First, I.T.L., I just love the honesty in all your posts.
Straight forward, and honest. Gotta love that.


Originally Posted by itistoughlove
Don't you think a struggle between value systems can warp a right vs. wrong choice?

There will be people who suggest there is no "right" and there is no "wrong" , and those people can be supporters of adultery.
The "follow your heart" mentality has wiggle room for just about any behavior.


Yes - My MIL is telling him you cannot help who you fall in love with. redflag Maturity Issue

Quote
I know for me my WH has taken his previous value system and thrown it completely in the gutter. As a BS, my value system, is still the same. We played tug of war between two very different value systems.

Values can evolve over time. People mature and see what matters most as they get >ahem< older.
Mine have.
This is why human values are more meaningful if they come from some higher authority. (points upward)


Yes - Pre-children I had a lower level value system. I let him do more IB with his buddies. I let him have the porn, and I didn't say much when I disagreed morally with him. After children I wanted complete family mode. I felt we owed our children a higher standard on the morals, i.e. no more violent video games, no more porn, no more IB's. This is where the trouble started and his struggles with these "rules". I felt those behaviors were not in the best interest of the children so I tried to impose my will on him to have him remove them out of his life.

Quote
My WH tried to come back to the previous value system during our false recovery. This time as a BS I put up strong boundaries for him. Thus my value system went up a notch.

By this do you mean things like
radical honesty
transparency
???
What exactly are the "values" you "upped" a notch?


Yes - I wanted to dishonesty, deceipt, omission, and his affair supporting friends out of our marriage and out of our lives. He didn't want to do this. He felt I was controlling him, disrespecting him, and he still wanted to be deployed and act like a bachelor. He said to me, "Why couldn't we just sweep this under the rug and you come back to me and sweep me off my feet." I realize now he believes I am 100% responsible for his affair.

Quote
The disconnect was so strong between value systems we ended up back and forth constantly on the right vs. wrong debate.

This is pretty important!
What exactly did you and WH go back and forth about?


His friends, my boundaries, and I what I wanted him to do in the marriage. He didn't want to cease contact. He felt they could still be friends, and he didn't want to give up the affair supporting friends either. He trickle truthed me and that was very painful.


Quote
Part of me believes he is heading down this dark hell because he doesn't want to admit he is wrong. This will be the first time in 15 years I haven't cleaned up his mess. He feels like I threw him to the wolves.

What wolves?

Wolves: Exposure - he felt I was out to destroy him by exposure.
Controlling him
He not being allowed to have a life.
I think he feels coming back to the marriage is his end to dishonest friends, IB, and his ability to control me. Yes, Yes it is!!!

Quote
OW provides the comfort of his new value system. She doesn't hold him accountable.

Wellllllllll................
If they remain together, she will EXPECT him to value fidelity to her over cheating on her.
Bet on it.


She did the same thing while deployed to IRAQ - she will cheat on him!!!

Quote
What happens now. He divorces me and my children are caught up in a wrong vs. right world.

The kids will be given an opportunity to view what happens when vows are not kept.
People get hurt.
A family is destroyed.
Lives are ruined.


Quote
The only fear I have today is my doubt in myself for standing up to what is right.

What the heck?
twoxfour

My recovery is still in the works. I compromised my boundaries in the marriage out of my own fear. With time I will be stronger to respect myself and my boundaries. I am a work in progress.


Quote
It is the saddest reason on the earth for a divorce. All because he doesn't admit he was wrong, and now does not want to upgrade his value system.

WH is prideful.
Such pride is the cement that keeps our feet stuck in sin.


This is hard for me to accept today. As an engineer I just want to jump in and fix it. I cannot fix it - I have to let it go, and allow him 100% freedom over his life. That is hard for me today.

Quote
My only job now is to stand for what is right, "He thinks I am being righteous out of spite."

doh2



With Christ I can do all things!

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Sorry for the T/J

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Originally Posted by HoldHerHand
Yet, we, who were in the right, immediately recognize where we were in the wrong!

Why?

HHH, this is purely off the top of my head (read: may not stand up to scrutiny!), and also may be way off the mark as I am not a BS:

1) Betrayal --> BS is made unwilling victim ("unwilling victim" = redundant, yes?)
1a) Unwilling victim --> unwillingly vulnerable
2) Pain of betrayal = pain of being vulnerable
3) Identify what made you vulnerable
3a) What made you vulnerable = perceived as what you did wrong
4) Prevent those wrongs from occurring again
4a) Prevent victimhood again

A different take, I think, than what you're getting at re: vulnerability. Possibly slanted by a "BS not wanting R" POV - I suspect it's a different and meatier answer when viewed through a "BS wanting R" lens.


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Originally Posted by Mrs_Vanilla
Originally Posted by HoldHerHand
Yet, we, who were in the right, immediately recognize where we were in the wrong!

Why?

HHH, this is purely off the top of my head (read: may not stand up to scrutiny!), and also may be way off the mark as I am not a BS:

1) Betrayal --> BS is made unwilling victim ("unwilling victim" = redundant, yes?)
1a) Unwilling victim --> unwillingly vulnerable
2) Pain of betrayal = pain of being vulnerable
3) Identify what made you vulnerable
3a) What made you vulnerable = perceived as what you did wrong
4) Prevent those wrongs from occurring again
4a) Prevent victimhood again

A different take, I think, than what you're getting at re: vulnerability. Possibly slanted by a "BS not wanting R" POV - I suspect it's a different and meatier answer when viewed through a "BS wanting R" lens.


It's interesting logic - but I'm in the same position as you are, Mrs. V - I am looking at it through the same "slant."

I see my H now, shut down again like he was for most of our pre-A M. When he opened up to me during our initial recovery - made himself vulnerable, perhaps understanding that it was what I had wanted, I rewarded him with DDay #2. Sensing he had made himself vulnerable, he walled himself back up again, to try and keep me from hurting him anymore... confused

I dunno.


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Originally Posted by Mrs_Vanilla
Originally Posted by HoldHerHand
Yet, we, who were in the right, immediately recognize where we were in the wrong!

Why?

HHH, this is purely off the top of my head (read: may not stand up to scrutiny!), and also may be way off the mark as I am not a BS:

1) Betrayal --> BS is made unwilling victim ("unwilling victim" = redundant, yes?)
1a) Unwilling victim --> unwillingly vulnerable
2) Pain of betrayal = pain of being vulnerable
3) Identify what made you vulnerable
3a) What made you vulnerable = perceived as what you did wrong
4) Prevent those wrongs from occurring again
4a) Prevent victimhood again

A different take, I think, than what you're getting at re: vulnerability. Possibly slanted by a "BS not wanting R" POV - I suspect it's a different and meatier answer when viewed through a "BS wanting R" lens.

I think if you were to amalgamate this with WPG, we may have a winner. Specifically 4, and 4a.

Getting to that point and preventing victimization, I think we tend to overprotect and stop allowing vulnerability consciously and unconsciously.


"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Niels Bohr

"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer

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1) Betrayal --> BS is made unwilling victim ("unwilling victim" = redundant, yes?)
1a) Unwilling victim --> unwillingly vulnerable
2) Pain of betrayal = pain of being vulnerable
3) Identify what made you vulnerable
3a) What made you vulnerable = perceived as what you did wrong
4) Prevent those wrongs from occurring again
4a) Prevent victimhood ag
ain


Mmmmmm I like that just find myself in a stuck place, I did 1,2,3,3a. then 4 but in doing so found who I am and stopped being vulnerable, got strong, got myself sorted.

His A continued for another 5 years under the guise of Just friends, (yes I know, stupid, but when the s**t hit the fan I discovered I wasn't vulnerable a second time, I was tough, cool and calm (ish).

Now I don't need him, some days not even sure I want him, but by not being vulnerable I don't activate his KISA which is quite sad for him as he needs to be needed.

So what do I do now ........ I want it to work but I can't afford to need him just yet in case he blows it all up in my face.

Guess I am feeling like this today as it's OW daughters Bday and he is very triggered and upset but won't talk just miserable. I can manage my triggers, just can't manage his!


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Originally Posted by Tanam
1) Betrayal --> BS is made unwilling victim ("unwilling victim" = redundant, yes?)
1a) Unwilling victim --> unwillingly vulnerable
2) Pain of betrayal = pain of being vulnerable
3) Identify what made you vulnerable
3a) What made you vulnerable = perceived as what you did wrong
4) Prevent those wrongs from occurring again
4a) Prevent victimhood ag
ain


Mmmmmm I like that just find myself in a stuck place, I did 1,2,3,3a. then 4 but in doing so found who I am and stopped being vulnerable, got strong, got myself sorted.

His A continued for another 5 years under the guise of Just friends, (yes I know, stupid, but when the s**t hit the fan I discovered I wasn't vulnerable a second time, I was tough, cool and calm (ish).

Now I don't need him, some days not even sure I want him, but by not being vulnerable I don't activate his KISA which is quite sad for him as he needs to be needed.

So what do I do now ........ I want it to work but I can't afford to need him just yet in case he blows it all up in my face.

Guess I am feeling like this today as it's OW daughters Bday and he is very triggered and upset but won't talk just miserable. I can manage my triggers, just can't manage his!

I'd like to defer to V and WPG here (or any other FWS, for that matter), but here's my thought as I see from what I observe here;

Both sides of the equation retract their vulnerability.

The BS retracts vulnerability due to betrayal, the WS retracts vulnerability due to the fear of rejection.


Now, reading your post, Tanam. You are extending empathy to your H about his triggers.

This is HUGE. When we stop our empathy towards our (W/B)S due to betrayal/rejection, we cannot progress.

Extending empathy is the first baby-step.

The next step is this; extending safety.


Maybe you can't help him handle his triggers, but you can empathize, and provide safety for him to be vulnerable to you.


"H, I realize that today is hard for you. I want you to know that you can talk to me. I want you to know that I am here for you, and that I am here for you when you hurt."


"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Niels Bohr

"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer

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Basically creating a safe zone. I am working on this for myself.

My WH did not feel safe because of my AO's. I used AO's because he continuously kept hurting me. I didn't know how to communicate to him to stop hurting me and just love me. I felt so alone in his prescence. This triggered me to yell more because I was so frustrated by not getting him to change. The cycle went round and round.

Today - I am trying to fully understand AO's and DJ's for what they really are in terms of poor coping mechanisms.

I think to lesson our vulerability we have to understand the full scope of radical honesty, boundaries, and strength.

For Example ARK said this a while back on mimi's thread:

Quote
One thing I told my WH was that he had become a liar and a cheater and I knew that was not "him"- I couldn't let him be that kind of person. You can use this technique on your WS too. For example, if he wants to discuss houses with you, you say, "I can't let you go behind OW's back with me, it isn't fair to her to let her believe she has a future with you when you are planning otherwise. I can't be party to you being dishonest. Because I respect you and I know that is not the kind of man you want to be" You take it away from you being the injured party. NOT "you hurt me so much, I have to be away from you" RATHER "I have to protect you and your dignity by distancing myself from this lying behavior". I don't know if this makes sense.

that is an amazing approach..it emcompasses the whole package on such different level..

the debunking of the WS's pull to wallow in overwhelming guilt and shame...to the point of sabotaging recovery...

the abilility to show forgiveness and moving aways from what was....

the ability to put in to actions not just the words the meaning of honesty etc...

the ability to show support and hope that people can change....

It's like a huge piece of the puzzle right there in your own words...!!!!


*** For me this is how I want to become stronger and lesson my vulnerability to the pain. I want to see honesty at all its levels. I want to look at the situation from a place of forgiveness. I want the ability to have this boundary when I fully understand how it works, because I truly believe this will allow the least amount of pain in my life.

I guess I am trying to get to a place that letting go of my husband and moving on in my life can be justified in my mind by his lack of character today. We all know waywards can be different. Looking at my WH and OW as the dishonest, immoral characters that they are today versus the pain they cause me is a challenge.

I finally realize for my own sanity I can no longer look at them as (The two them vs. me). I don't want to be a victim of the pain anymore.

Tough~

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Oh, epiphanies.

I believe one of the greatest designs in MB is that it gives spouses a common language with which to communicate with each other.

However, the language in and of itself isn't the full beauty of this.

The language is the first step. The next step, is bringing that common language to common context.

So, given that, and given the Basic concepts, let's talk about the coin of honesty.

On one side of the coin, you have Openness and Honesty;

Quote
Those with a need for honesty and openness want accurate information about their spouses' thoughts, feelings, habits, likes, dislikes, personal history, daily activities and plans for the future. If their spouse does not provide honest and open communication, trust is undermined and the feelings of security can eventually be destroyed. They cannot trust the signals that are being sent and feel they have no foundation on which to build a solid relationship. Instead of adjusting, they feel off balance; instead of growing together, they feel as if they are growing apart.

Ok, good enough.

Then, we have a Love Buster, dishonesty;

Quote
Dishonesty is the strangest of the five Love Busters. Obviously, no one likes dishonesty, but sometimes honesty seems even more damaging. What if the truth is more painful than a lie?

When a wife first learns that her husband has been unfaithful, the pain is often so great that she wishes she had been left ignorant. When a husband discovers his wife's affair, it's like a knife in his heart -- and he wonders if it would have been better not knowing. In fact, many marriage counselors advise clients to avoid telling spouses about past infidelity, saying that it's too painful for people to handle. Besides, if it's over and done with, why dredge up the sewage of the past?

It's this sort of confusion that leads some of the most well-intentioned husbands and wives to lie to each other, or at least give each other false impressions. They feel that dishonesty will help them protect each other's feelings.

Alright. Simple

We all arrived here with some simple understanding and value in Honesty and Openness, and some simple understanding and dislike for Dishonesty.

What we have lacked, is a proactive context in to which to place both of these things. In fact, look around and read the reactions we have to these concepts.

The reaction to Dishonesty is often a furious one. It's a one-two punch; it fails to fulfill the emotional need of H&O, and is in and of itself a love buster.

The reaction is usually a FLURRY of Love Busters by the offended spouse - Angry Outbursts, Selfish Demands, and Disrespectful Judgements.

Ok. We following?

Now, let's stop and reflect in the MB context as to what is going on in this situation.

Dishonesty, Angry Outbursts, Selfish Demands, and Disrespectful Judgements are particularly related Love Busters for one peculiar reason; each and every one of them is most often deployed either as a way to try to have our needs met, or to protect our feelings or (per our own thinking) our spouse's feelings.

They usually fail.

Now, let's go back to H&O.

Given our normal evaluation of honesty, we do NOT view it as an emotional need.

Read that again.

Stop, and think about it.

The very first thing we do to ANYONE who fails to be Honest and Open is to immediately unleash a torrent of Disrespectful Judgements against them - we question their morality, their integrity... we launch an attack at the very fiber of their being.

Even if we don't do this externally to our spouse, we do it in our head and heart when they fail at H&O.

What often results here is a focus on the LB aspect of the exchange; well, just STOP being dishonest then!

This is foolhardy. When one person is here angry that their spouse, who is not here, has been dishonest or isn't meeting the need of Honest and Open... the usual response is to focus on the LB behavior of the absent spouse.

crazy

No.

The solution is for the offended spouse not to focus on the Love Buster, but to focus on what they can do to have their need met. How do we have our needs met? By making it pleasant and safe for our spouse to meet that need.


The solution, is for you to begin to contextualize H&O as your emotional need, not a given (SD), not a lack of values on the part of your spouse (DJ), and not a reason to treat them like crap (AO).


Keep your side of the street clean, folks.

Last edited by HoldHerHand; 06/25/11 02:01 PM.

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Originally Posted by HoldHerHand
I'd like to defer to V and WPG here (or any other FWS, for that matter), but here's my thought as I see from what I observe here;

Both sides of the equation retract their vulnerability.

The BS retracts vulnerability due to betrayal, the WS retracts vulnerability due to the fear of rejection.

I think you're pretty dead on here. I can't speak for the BS, but as a WS...I allow myself to be vulnerable to an extent, but I'm afraid of really blowing down the doors and letting H completely see my heart. On the one hand, I'm afraid he'd see me as "needy" and there's that whole "men don't want to be pursued" thing. Afraid of scaring him away, maybe. But that's not the whole story. I'm afraid that if I let him see how much pain I am in, that he simply won't care. I replay things he said to me in the past, and fear that I won't be believed.

No, I'm not happy...but do I prefer the half-life that I have now, having him at least a tiny bit, over not having him at all?

Yes. And the fear of losing that stops me cold. And that's where I am failing.


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Agreed on the fear of rejection from the (F)WS POV.

I would also add (and maybe this is my own particular neurosis, unique to me alone) that a retraction of one's/FWS's vulnerability is done out of distrust, or fear of betrayal of that vulnerability.

It is fear of rejection, partly, but it is compounded by fear of betrayal. We see for many WSs that they would never, not in a million years, have thought they would ever cheat. Thus, when they do cheat, it's a pretty big self-betrayal. If they didn't know themselves enough to see that coming, how can you trust that someone else - someone to whom you have allowed yourself to be vulnerable - won't turn around and, whether they intend to or not, betray that vulnerability?

That encompasses a fear of rejection, of course, but it feels like more than that. Again, maybe it's only in my head and not others'.

Also, I think there is an element, at least for most FWSs, of not being worthy. We messed it all up, we are in the wrong, so who are we to foist the burden of our vulnerability on our victim? It feels like saying: "Here, here is this huge precious thing of my being vulnerable to you. Taking care of it, guarding it, protecting it, will take work, and I know I just dropped a nuclear bomb in our marriage, but could you go ahead and just add this to the list of things you're already dealing with because of me? Thanks!"

Dunno. dontknow


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WPG

Thanks for that, I think that does help me to see why my H can't be open or vulnerable, there have been times in the past when he has tried and I admit there have been times when I have used that to stick a knife in him.

There, well, what did you expect......if you hadn't....suck it up

So yes why so suprised that this time he said nothing for fear of further rejection.

Before I went to bed last night I took his face in my hands, told him it was OK to hurt, I don't have a monopoly on pain and that I was here. I kissed him and went to bed.

This morning he seems brighter and sunday morning SF very pleasant!

Baby steps indeed


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NC letter sent 3.12.10

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From Hagakure;

Quote
At the time when there was a council concerning the promotion of a certain man, the council members were at the
point of deciding that promotion was useless because of the fact that the man had previously been involved in a
drunken brawl. But someone said, "If we were to cast aside every man who had made a mistake once, useful men
could probably not be come by. A man who makes a mistake once will be considerably more prudent and useful
because of his repentance.
I feel that he should be promoted.''
Someone else then asked, "Will you guarantee him?" The man replied, "Of course I will."
The others asked, "By what will you guarantee him?"
And he replied, "I can guarantee him by the fact that he is a man who has erred once. A man who has never once
erred is dangerous
." This said, the man was promoted.

Note the key term; repentance.

Last edited by HoldHerHand; 07/10/11 12:52 PM.

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Also from Hagakure;

Quote
Shame and repentance are like upsetting a pot of water. When a friend of mine listened to the way that a man who had stolen his sword ornament confessed, he felt compassion. If one will rectify his mistakes, their traces will soon disappear.


"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Niels Bohr

"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer

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Originally Posted by HoldHerHand



Quick notes;

Quote
...why we sometimes misunderstand the signs around us, and how we behave when that happens, and what all of this can tell us about human nature.

...most of us do everything we can to avoid thinking about being wrong, or at least to avoid thinking about the possibility that we ourselves are wrong... We all know everybody in this room makes mistakes. The human species, in general, is fallible -- okay fine.

But when it comes down to me right now, to all the beliefs I hold, here in the present tense, suddenly all of this abstract appreciation of fallibility goes out the window -- and I can't actually think of anything I'm wrong about. And the thing is, the present tense is where we live.

...we all kind of wind up traveling through life, trapped in this little bubble of feeling very right about everything.

...it is possible to step outside of that feeling... it is the single greatest moral, intellectual and creative leap you can make.


So why do we get stuck in this feeling of being right?

How does it feel -- emotionally -- how does it feel to be wrong? Dreadful. Thumbs down. Embarrassing.

...but they're answers to a different question. You guys are answering the question: How does it feel to realize you're wrong?

Realizing you're wrong can feel like all of that and a lot of other things, right? ...it can be devastating, it can be revelatory, it can actually be quite funny... But just being wrong doesn't feel like anything.

Most of the time, we don't have any kind of internal cue to let us know that we're wrong about something, until it's too late.

...you've already learned, first of all, that people who get stuff wrong are lazy, irresponsible dimwits -- and second of all, that the way to succeed in life is to never make any mistakes.

We learn these really bad lessons really well.

...we freak out at the possibility that we've gotten something wrong. Because according to this, getting something wrong means there's something wrong with us. So we just insist that we're right, because it makes us feel smart and responsible and virtuous and safe.



...trusting too much in the feeling of being on the correct side of anything can be very dangerous.


This internal sense of rightness that we all experience so often is not a reliable guide to what is actually going on in the external world. And when we act like it is, and we stop entertaining the possibility that we could be wrong...


(MB note; this section perfectly explains how disrespectful judgements operate)

Think for a moment about what it means to feel right. It means that you think that your beliefs just perfectly reflect reality. And when you feel that way, you've got a problem to solve, which is, how are you going to explain all of those people who disagree with you? ...most of us explain those people the same way, by resorting to a series of unfortunate assumptions. The first thing we usually do ...is we just assume they're ignorant. They don't have access to the same information that we do, and when we generously share that information with them, they're going to see the light... When that doesn't work... then we move on to a second assumption, which is that they're idiots. ...when that doesn't work ... [we assume] they know the truth, and they are deliberately distorting it for their own malevolent purposes. So this is a catastrophe.

This attachment to our own rightness keeps us from preventing mistakes when we absolutely need to and causes us to treat each other terribly.


The miracle of your mind isn't that you can see the world as it is. It's that you can see the world as it isn't.


...our capacity to screw up, it's not some kind of embarrassing defect in the human system, something we can eradicate or overcome. It's totally fundamental to who we are. Because, unlike God, we don't really know what's going on out there.

...you need to step outside of that tiny, terrified space of rightness and look around at each other and look out at the vastness and complexity and mystery of the universe and be able to say, "Wow, I don't know. Maybe I'm wrong."


and bump?


"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Niels Bohr

"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer

"Fair speech may hide a foul heart." - Samwise Gamgee LOTR
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Boppin' around reading old stuff... the videos on vulnerability and the power of being wrong provide me with some mantras;

Quote
...the people who have a strong sense of love and belonging believe they're worthy of love and belonging. That's it. They believe they're worthy. And to me, the hard part of the one thing that keeps us out of connection is our fear that we're not worthy of connection...

..these folks had, very simply, the courage to be imperfect. They had the compassion to be kind to themselves first and then to others, because, as it turns out, we can't practice compassion with other people if we can't treat ourselves kindly.

...they were willing to let go of who they thought they should be in order to be who they were, which you have to absolutely do that for connection.

...what made them vulnerable made them beautiful.

...the willingness to say "I love you" first, the willingness to do something where there are no guarantees, the willingness to breathe through waiting for the doctor to call after your mammogram. They're willing to invest in a relationship that may or may not work out. They thought this was fundamental.

...the way to live is with vulnerability and to stop controlling and predicting.

...you cannot selectively numb emotion. You can't say, here's the bad stuff. Here's vulnerability, here's grief, here's shame, here's fear, here's disappointment, I don't want to feel these.

You can't numb those hard feelings without numbing the affects, our emotions. You cannot selectively numb. So when we numb those, we numb joy, we numb gratitude, we numb happiness. And then we are miserable, and we are looking for purpose and meaning, and then we feel vulnerable, so then we have a couple of beers and a banana nut muffin. And it becomes this dangerous cycle.

Quote
...you've already learned, first of all, that people who get stuff wrong are lazy, irresponsible dimwits -- and second of all, that the way to succeed in life is to never make any mistakes.

We learn these really bad lessons really well.

...we freak out at the possibility that we've gotten something wrong. Because according to this, getting something wrong means there's something wrong with us. So we just insist that we're right, because it makes us feel smart and responsible and virtuous and safe.



...trusting too much in the feeling of being on the correct side of anything can be very dangerous.

This internal sense of rightness that we all experience so often is not a reliable guide to what is actually going on in the external world. And when we act like it is, and we stop entertaining the possibility that we could be wrong...

This attachment to our own rightness keeps us from preventing mistakes when we absolutely need to and causes us to treat each other terribly.

...our capacity to screw up, it's not some kind of embarrassing defect in the human system, something we can eradicate or overcome. It's totally fundamental to who we are. Because, unlike God, we don't really know what's going on out there.


"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Niels Bohr

"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer

"Fair speech may hide a foul heart." - Samwise Gamgee LOTR
Joined: Oct 2010
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Thank you for posting these thoughts, Triple-H!

I can't tell you how much I needed reminding of these very things today.

Very thought-provoking and wise.


"The #1 reason why people give up so quickly is because they tend to look at how far they still have to go, rather than how far they've gotten."

Me, FBW(46) H, FWH (43)
M - 21 yrs & counting
D (20)
S (18)
S (16)
Surviving and Thriving since November 2010 thanks to MB!
My Recovery Thread: http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2538986#Post2538986
My Original Thread: http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2457141&page=1

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