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#2523084 06/23/11 01:32 PM
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Why you must end your self-flaggelation, for the sake of your marriage;



A related discussion from TED;

How do you open your heart and get vulnerable?

Quote:
Conversation: After several years of taking part and teaching courses I am more and more able to move into a state of vulnerability intentionally with the gains that Brene has listed. As an Architect and Database programmer - this is not my normal state. It seems irrational to be vulnerable. But the results are an incredible sense of inner peace and strength that I would want everyone to experience. I am so glad that this subject is getting an ever greater variety of speakers on TED. But how do you go about gaining the courage, compassion and connection that leads to vulnerability... that is powerful rather than weakness? You need to understand how your consciousness works - how to get out of your mind and into the present, examine the your blueprint that has given you both useful and less useful patterns of default behavior.
In David Christian's Big History I feel there is a clue as to why this might be important. We need to get to the next level of smartness quick - we need to look at what we are creating and why - how we connect with each other and what is the real use of our intellect. Thank you Brene for stopping from using measuring devices and starting to use a higher state of consciousness.


Interesting responses;

Quote:
I think vulnerability decreases as hearts open. Someone with a fully open heart would have no fear of or resistance to pain or hurt. They would see potential and limitations in themselves and others, recognize that acting from the heart might cause pain, and realize its worth it. Examples are Ghandi, Martin Luther King and Nelson Mandella.

You asked How do we open our hearts? Thats a process Ive been exploring with my students and patients for 35 years. I believe that people who consistently strive to open their hearts recognize that love is the most important thing in life.

We become inauthentic by resisting life. The impulse to resist pain is consistently reinforced by Western culture. Resisting emotional pain is even more deeply entrenched. When we try to stop feeling, we tense various muscle groups and hold our breath. Since the limbic system (emotional center of the brain) is linked to proprioception (muscle movement), this tension inhibits the experience of emotion and provides an illusion of invulnerability as we feel less and less.

In my experience, letting go of patterns of tension takes regular practice over weeks and months. It involves learning to keep our body in a neutral position so muscles are in balance with opposing muscles and the skeleton becomes the primary means of support (we dont have to hold ourselves up). This is called grounding and it involves learning to sit, stand and move with minimal muscle tension. When combined with slow rhythmic diaphragmatic breathing (this seems to stimulate the parasympathetic nervous system which inhibits muscle activation), patterns of tension are resolved. We become able to move, feel, and respond authentically.

When our bodies tense, our minds narrows focus on the negative (an adaptive reaction in a threat situation). This creates more tension which further narrows focus on the negative. These become habits of thinking and perception. They can be resolved through regular meditation and learning to clarify thoughts and perceptions. Resolving patterns of tension makes this easier.

In sum, I believe we open our hearts by (1) Restoring balance by resolving and preventing physical, mental, and emotional tension; (2) accepting pain and the threat of pain, and (3) clarifying that love is the most important thing in life. In short, Balance, Accept, and Clarify (ABC but start with B).


Quote:
Richard, you ask, "But how do you go about gaining the courage, compassion and connection that leads to vulnerability... that is powerful rather than weakness?" I believe this question is uniquely answered by each of us. For me it is about sharing my truths, in person, with someone I am close to, without the need for agreement, but with the desire to be seen. Bren describes how difficult this is, so I think the starting point, the bootstrap moment, is finding the courage to do this, and to persist over time. Neural plasticity theory would say that reprogramming entrenched shame avoidance strategies could take months or years.

How to bootstrap? I consider the alternative: lack of connection and authenticity, and that motivates me. It's still hard.

And vulnerability is powerful when done appropriately. Those who don't perceive that are perhaps those with whom it is best not to share your innermost secrets. A friend of mine said, "Choose WHAT you share with WHOM and HOW." For me it's not about blabbing through a social media channel, that's a cop out. Nor do I choose to share with people that are combative, shaming or intolerant.

So I see the steps (as related to the attributes you chose) as interconnected and overlapping: exhibit courage, show compassion (for self), be vulnerable, and achieve connection. Stir and repeat.

Your journey is more, as I understand, about embracing "Big History" to give the paradigm intellectual context and meaning. I hear that and honour it, and my path differs. Hopefully we'll end up with the same result: the connection we yearn for and deserve.

Last edited by JustUss; 06/24/11 12:33 AM. Reason: Title change

"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Niels Bohr

"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer

"Fair speech may hide a foul heart." - Samwise Gamgee LOTR
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Cliff's notes;

Quote:
So where I started was with connection. Because, by the time you're a social worker for 10 years, what you realize is that connection is why we're here. It's what gives purpose and meaning to our lives. This is what it's all about. It doesn't matter whether you talk to people who work in social justice and mental health and abuse and neglect, what we know is that connection, the ability to feel connected, is -- neurobiologically that's how we're wired -- it's why we're here. So I thought, you know what, I'm going to start with connection. Well you know that situation where you get an evaluation from your boss, and she tells you 37 things you do really awesome, and one thing -- an opportunity for growth? (Laughter) And all you can think about is that opportunity for growth, right. Well apparently this is the way my work went as well, because, when you ask people about love, they tell you about heartbreak. When you ask people about belonging, they'll tell you their most excruciating experiences of being excluded. And when you ask people about connection, the stories they told me were about disconnection.


Quote:
...about six weeks into this research -- I ran into this unnamed thing that absolutely unraveled connection in a way that I didn't understand or had never seen.

...it turned out to be shame. And shame is really easily understood as the fear of disconnection. Is there something about me that, if other people know it or see it, that I won't be worthy of connection.

...No one wants to talk about it, and the less you talk about it the more you have it. What underpinned this shame, this "I'm not good enough," -- which we all know that feeling: "I'm not blank enough. I'm not thin enough, rich enough, beautiful enough, smart enough, promoted enough." The thing that underpinned this was excruciating vulnerability, this idea of, in order for connection to happen, we have to allow ourselves to be seen, really seen.

...the people who have a strong sense of love and belonging believe they're worthy of love and belonging. That's it. They believe they're worthy. And to me, the hard part of the one thing that keeps us out of connection is our fear that we're not worthy of connection...

..these folks had, very simply, the courage to be imperfect. They had the compassion to be kind to themselves first and then to others, because, as it turns out, we can't practice compassion with other people if we can't treat ourselves kindly.

...they were willing to let go of who they thought they should be in order to be who they were, which you have to absolutely do that for connection.

...what made them vulnerable made them beautiful.

...the willingness to say "I love you" first, the willingness to do something where there are no guarantees, the willingness to breathe through waiting for the doctor to call after your mammogram. They're willing to invest in a relationship that may or may not work out. They thought this was fundamental.

...the way to live is with vulnerability and to stop controlling and predicting.

...you cannot selectively numb emotion. You can't say, here's the bad stuff. Here's vulnerability, here's grief, here's shame, here's fear, here's disappointment, I don't want to feel these.

You can't numb those hard feelings without numbing the affects, our emotions. You cannot selectively numb. So when we numb those, we numb joy, we numb gratitude, we numb happiness. And then we are miserable, and we are looking for purpose and meaning, and then we feel vulnerable, so then we have a couple of beers and a banana nut muffin. And it becomes this dangerous cycle.

The more afraid we are, the more vulnerable we are, the more afraid we are.

The other thing we do is we make everything that's uncertain certain... I'm right, you're wrong. Shut up. That's it. Just certain.

There's no conversation. There's just blame. You know how blame is described in the research? A way to discharge pain and discomfort.

...to let ourselves be seen, deeply seen, vulnerably seen; to love with our whole hearts, even though there's no guarantee -- and that's really hard..

"Can I love you this much? Can I believe in this this passionately? Can I be this fierce about this?" just to be able to stop and, instead of catastrophizing what might happen, to say, "I'm just so grateful, because to feel this vulnerable means I'm alive."

...probably the most important, is to believe that we're enough... when we work from a place I believe that says, "I'm enough," then we stop screaming and start listening, we're kinder and gentler to the people around us, and we're kinder and gentler to ourselves.



"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Niels Bohr

"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer

"Fair speech may hide a foul heart." - Samwise Gamgee LOTR
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...or as C.S. Lewis put it: "Humility does not mean thinking less of yourself. It means thinking of yourself less."

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Originally Posted By: HoldHerHand
Cliff's notes;
Quote:
...probably the most important, is to believe that we're enough... when we work from a place I believe that says, "I'm enough," then we stop screaming and start listening, we're kinder and gentler to the people around us, and we're kinder and gentler to ourselves.




This. Yes. I have been dwelling on this much over the last few months/years. Ugh.

Thank you for this thread, HHH.


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Originally Posted By: GloveOil
...or as C.S. Lewis put it: "Humility does not mean thinking less of yourself. It means thinking of yourself less."


Ever read "A Grief Observed?"

I find myself curious about that one...


"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Niels Bohr

"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer

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Quote:
...they were willing to let go of who they thought they should be in order to be who they were...


wow...

Quote:
...you cannot selectively numb emotion. You can't say, here's the bad stuff. Here's vulnerability, here's grief, here's shame, here's fear, here's disappointment, I don't want to feel these.

You can't numb those hard feelings without numbing the affects, our emotions. You cannot selectively numb. So when we numb those, we numb joy, we numb gratitude, we numb happiness. And then we are miserable, and we are looking for purpose and meaning, and then we feel vulnerable, so then we have a couple of beers and a banana nut muffin. And it becomes this dangerous cycle.


just...wow...

thank you for this, HHH.


FWW

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Why can't you numb them? What happens to someone when they try to numb one set of emotions?

What I am struggling to realize is the true path to happiness. I realize in my marriage I settled for dishonesty, omission, pornagraphy, little SF, no intimacy, basically a lot of pain.

I realized I did this because I stayed with my husband out of my own fear, lack of self respect, and an illusion of what he was.

My journey today is happiness. I struggle to understand it because I guess I do not believe it is possible.

What happens to us when we effectively numb everything? What becomes of life? What becomes of the soul?

Can one ever be happy when one part of us is numb?

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Originally Posted By: itistoughlove
What happens to us when we effectively numb everything? What becomes of life? What becomes of the soul?

Can one ever be happy when one part of us is numb?


No.

We can't selectively numb.

Opinion; this is what leads to ILYBINILWY. Because the active wayward is trying to numb the shame of their actions, they numb whatever love for their spouse remains... and then only the high, only the addiction remains. This is part of the cycle of addiction in adultery. The AP is the drug, the alchohol, the "couple of beers and a banana nut muffin."


Additional note; going to notify and have this thread retitled.

This is a gift for us all, not just the WS.

We, the betrayed, are shooting ourselves in the foot when it comes to recovery when we try to "numb" ourselves from the pain, from the betrayal.

WE NEED TO BE VULNERABLE. WE NEED TO FEEL.

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Two things to take away from this;

1) Make your needs for praise and admiration KNOWN. This is part of vulnerability. By making your needs known, you leave yourself vulnerable to your spouse meeting or not meeting your needs.

2) Say "Thank you." Today, thank your spouse for something, anything. Thank your husband for working hard. Thank your wife for being a great mother. THANK YOUR SPOUSE.


"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Niels Bohr

"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer

"Fair speech may hide a foul heart." - Samwise Gamgee LOTR
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Quick notes;

Quote:
...why we sometimes misunderstand the signs around us, and how we behave when that happens, and what all of this can tell us about human nature.

...most of us do everything we can to avoid thinking about being wrong, or at least to avoid thinking about the possibility that we ourselves are wrong... We all know everybody in this room makes mistakes. The human species, in general, is fallible -- okay fine.

But when it comes down to me right now, to all the beliefs I hold, here in the present tense, suddenly all of this abstract appreciation of fallibility goes out the window -- and I can't actually think of anything I'm wrong about. And the thing is, the present tense is where we live.

...we all kind of wind up traveling through life, trapped in this little bubble of feeling very right about everything.

...it is possible to step outside of that feeling... it is the single greatest moral, intellectual and creative leap you can make.


So why do we get stuck in this feeling of being right?

How does it feel -- emotionally -- how does it feel to be wrong? Dreadful. Thumbs down. Embarrassing.

...but they're answers to a different question. You guys are answering the question: How does it feel to realize you're wrong?

Realizing you're wrong can feel like all of that and a lot of other things, right? ...it can be devastating, it can be revelatory, it can actually be quite funny... But just being wrong doesn't feel like anything.

Most of the time, we don't have any kind of internal cue to let us know that we're wrong about something, until it's too late.

...you've already learned, first of all, that people who get stuff wrong are lazy, irresponsible dimwits -- and second of all, that the way to succeed in life is to never make any mistakes.

We learn these really bad lessons really well.

...we freak out at the possibility that we've gotten something wrong. Because according to this, getting something wrong means there's something wrong with us. So we just insist that we're right, because it makes us feel smart and responsible and virtuous and safe.



...trusting too much in the feeling of being on the correct side of anything can be very dangerous.


This internal sense of rightness that we all experience so often is not a reliable guide to what is actually going on in the external world. And when we act like it is, and we stop entertaining the possibility that we could be wrong...


(MB note; this section perfectly explains how disrespectful judgements operate)

Think for a moment about what it means to feel right. It means that you think that your beliefs just perfectly reflect reality. And when you feel that way, you've got a problem to solve, which is, how are you going to explain all of those people who disagree with you? ...most of us explain those people the same way, by resorting to a series of unfortunate assumptions. The first thing we usually do ...is we just assume they're ignorant. They don't have access to the same information that we do, and when we generously share that information with them, they're going to see the light... When that doesn't work... then we move on to a second assumption, which is that they're idiots. ...when that doesn't work ... [we assume] they know the truth, and they are deliberately distorting it for their own malevolent purposes. So this is a catastrophe.

This attachment to our own rightness keeps us from preventing mistakes when we absolutely need to and causes us to treat each other terribly.


The miracle of your mind isn't that you can see the world as it is. It's that you can see the world as it isn't.


...our capacity to screw up, it's not some kind of embarrassing defect in the human system, something we can eradicate or overcome. It's totally fundamental to who we are. Because, unlike God, we don't really know what's going on out there.

...you need to step outside of that tiny, terrified space of rightness and look around at each other and look out at the vastness and complexity and mystery of the universe and be able to say, "Wow, I don't know. Maybe I'm wrong."


"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Niels Bohr

"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer

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Originally Posted By: itistoughlove
Why can't you numb them? What happens to someone when they try to numb one set of emotions?


I read your post last night, tough, and have been mulling it around ever since. I remember sometime in the past reading something about how if we never fully feel grief, pain, and loss, we can never fully feel happiness and joy...that if we can fully feel the "lows," we can't fully feel the "highs." If I recall correctly, it was in some discussion about how so many of our psychotropic medications are intended to "even us out" emotionally.

So (using my work day wisely, lol) I started looking for further discussions on numbing emotions. A few tidbits I found online:

Quote:
It makes sense who wants to feel bad? No one (or we wouldnt call it feeling bad). My natural tendency and inclination when Im feeling sad, angry, or scared in a situation is to do my best to feel not sad, angry, or scared. The logical way to do this is by meeting my needs and making changes that influence how I feel and how I am in positive ways. The less logical, but far more tempting short cut is to deny my feelings.

Of course, thats the equivalent of taking a pain killer when your arm is broken. It may fix A problem, but it doesnt fix THE problem.

So the paradoxical truth of the situation is that we must accept things as they are in order to create any change. When you break your arm you feel pain for a reason its a plenty good motivator for you to make some changes and get it fixed. Numbing the pain, on the other hand, does not fix the problem it only seduces us into thinking weve fixed the problem. Likewise, if we numb ourselves to our own emotional pain if we disconnect and disengage from the hurt that we feel we will not accurately see the problems that require fixing. In effect, we make it worse.

HERE


Quote:
Numbing strategies are popular, plentiful AND punishing.

There are many ways to numb our feelings. They can take the form of artificial substances (we already know a lot about them.) There are mechanical ones, like working or playing so much that we neglect/deny/ignore our responsibilities. There are also emotional numbing strategies. Of the three mentioned, emotional numbing seems to be generally less understood. Emotional numbing strategies are designed to stop us from feeling our real feelings by giving us something else to think about and feel. They are designed to distract us from our true feelings therefore having the effect of numbing or seemingly ending our initial pain. Common examples of these numbing strategies are becoming controlling (the subject of several other articles) and feelings of blame, guilt, self-pity and righteous anger. Although these feelings are not very much fun; they are familiar, instant, legal, were quite good at them and they are comparatively less threatening to us than the feelings we are trying to avoid. To Blame or not to Blame: That is the responsible question.

Probably the most popular numbing strategy is blaming. Many of us will rush to quickly figure out who or what we can blame, as soon as we begin to feel emotional pain. Duh! It makes perfect sense. It feels a lot better to blame someone ELSE for our problems than it does to admit we had something to do with our own troubles. It feels much better to make someone ELSE bad and wrong, than to admit to ourselves, Oh my, maybe this is my issue and my responsibility not someone elses. Blaming another for our pain can make us feel better than someone else. Our judgments of right and wrong will indeed numb our pain but they wont fix the problem, heal our wounds or get us any closer to feeling better. If were willing to act like adults (not children), take responsibility (versus blame) and grow up from past wounds and childhood issues and if were brutally honest with ourselves, well see that blaming usually creates more problems and delays constructive and long-term solutions. When we can recognize and admit that we are blaming to numb our pain, we can stop this behavior, have some compassion for ourselves and try something new. We can begin to focus on taking care of ourselves. Theres an idea worthy of our time and attention.

First things first: Self-care, an essential goal!
Remember when the airlines first came out with that line: Please get your oxygen mask on first and then help those around you. Initially some people felt that was a selfish action but its now a well accepted view that we are better able to care for others once we have taken care of ourselves. This concept clearly applies when we are stressed and upset. By making effective self-care a priority in times of high stress, we help ourselves and anyone else with whom we interact. If we can agree that self-care is the avenue of choice and that we want to take positive, non-punishing, non-numbing actions, then what do we do the next time we feel upset and stressed out?

The first thing to do is STOP! Pause! Consciously resist old habits. Stop ourselves from taking any actions long enough to ask ourselves some valuable questions and give ourselves the space and time to come up with some meaningful answers. Get curious about our own needs! Just do this one step and be amazed at the changes and the wisdom that surfaces. This could be uncomfortable at first. The discomfort is due to lack of practice, thats all.


Questions to interrupt old patterns and lead to happier endings:

What do I need, right now, to feel better? A nap? Some food? A hug? 20 minutes of quiet time? Some help? A friendly ear or shoulder? More time to complete a task?

What can I do, this very minute, to help myself? Take a break? Step out for some air? Take a bath? Call a friend? Change my mind? Try something new? Have courage? Face a fear? Stand up for myself?

What, in this situation, do I have the ability to control? Cancel something? Schedule something? Create new solutions to a problem? Walk away from an issue? Find an option you like better?

As we learn more effective ways to deal with our lives and the situations we face, we are taking better care of ourselves and this can reduce the day-to-day stress. With less stress, we handle things with more ease and consequently minimize the end of our rope moments. By taking the time to get curious, we can develop a unique and personal strategy that improves our ability to handle whatever life offers us. We can learn to do this without controlling anyone else, without needing anyone else to change and without temporarily numbing our feelings, knowing at some level well have to deal with them eventually.

HERE

I can see it in myself. I've tried every one of the "numbing strategies" listed in the above article - artificial, mechanical, and emotional. So when I'm feeling miserable, I decide I'll have a Twinkie - and, here's the big issue - I eat that Twinkie INSTEAD of doing something positive. In turn, the Twinkie, or just insert <whatever unhealthy item> here, makes me feel guilty later and the cycle begins again.

My challenge is to address the issues that I know I have in an effective and healthy manner. I'm great at dispensing advice but not always great at following it. stickout I just appreciate this topic as it has caused me to do some thinking, and hopefully some learning.


FWW

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Don't you think a struggle between value systems can warp a right vs. wrong choice?

I know for me my WH has taken his previous value system and thrown it completely in the gutter. As a BS, my value system, is still the same. We played tug of war between two very different value systems.

My WH tried to come back to the previous value system during our false recovery. This time as a BS I put up strong boundaries for him. Thus my value system went up a notch.

The disconnect was so strong between value systems we ended up back and forth constantly on the right vs. wrong debate.

Part of me believes he is heading down this dark hell because he doesn't want to admit he is wrong. This will be the first time in 15 years I haven't cleaned up his mess. He feels like I threw him to the wolves.

OW provides the comfort of his new value system. She doesn't hold him accountable.

What happens now. He divorces me and my children are caught up in a wrong vs. right world. The only fear I have today is my doubt in myself for standing up to what is right.

It is the saddest reason on the earth for a divorce. All because he doesn't admit he was wrong, and now does not want to upgrade his value system.

My only job now is to stand for what is right, "He thinks I am being righteous out of spite.". My children are now caught between the two systems.

Looking at my marriage I can clearly see where I was wrong, but I can also see all that he did wrong.

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Originally Posted By: itistoughlove
Don't you think a struggle between value systems can warp a right vs. wrong choice?

I know for me my WH has taken his previous value system and thrown it completely in the gutter. As a BS, my value system, is still the same. We played tug of war between two very different value systems.

My WH tried to come back to the previous value system during our false recovery. This time as a BS I put up strong boundaries for him. Thus my value system went up a notch.

The disconnect was so strong between value systems we ended up back and forth constantly on the right vs. wrong debate.

Part of me believes he is heading down this dark hell because he doesn't want to admit he is wrong. This will be the first time in 15 years I haven't cleaned up his mess. He feels like I threw him to the wolves.

OW provides the comfort of his new value system. She doesn't hold him accountable.

What happens now. He divorces me and my children are caught up in a wrong vs. right world. The only fear I have today is my doubt in myself for standing up to what is right.

It is the saddest reason on the earth for a divorce. All because he doesn't admit he was wrong, and now does not want to upgrade his value system.

My only job now is to stand for what is right, "He thinks I am being righteous out of spite.". My children are now caught between the two systems.

Looking at my marriage I can clearly see where I was wrong, but I can also see all that he did wrong.



Quote:
Think for a moment about what it means to feel right. It means that you think that your beliefs just perfectly reflect reality. And when you feel that way, you've got a problem to solve, which is, how are you going to explain all of those people who disagree with you? ...most of us explain those people the same way, by resorting to a series of unfortunate assumptions. The first thing we usually do ...is we just assume they're ignorant. They don't have access to the same information that we do, and when we generously share that information with them, they're going to see the light... When that doesn't work... then we move on to a second assumption, which is that they're idiots. ...when that doesn't work ... [we assume] they know the truth, and they are deliberately distorting it for their own malevolent purposes. So this is a catastrophe.



"Value systems" is a highly abstract and absolutely subjective terminology.

You are attempting to project that onto your WH as a way to understand or explain the "why" of his behavior, and it fails for two reasons;

1) He is not you, and cannot see the world as you do, will not think of what he sees as you do.

2) As he is engaged in this activity, he is "not right in the head." He subconsciously knows he is wrong, but because he wants to be "right" he, too is employing the above coping strategies to being wrong.


"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Niels Bohr

"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer

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Originally Posted By: itistoughlove

Don't you think a struggle between value systems can warp a right vs. wrong choice?

I know for me my WH has taken his previous value system and thrown it completely in the gutter. As a BS, my value system, is still the same. We played tug of war between two very different value systems.



It's not just your WH.


I went back to recheck an old thread of mine, because your thoughts reminded me about something I read that Dr harley wrote in one of his books.
I wanted to check to see if my recollection was accurate.

The significant part is highlighted in red.


Originally Posted By: Me from an old thread
so now the former Buyer/Buyer agreement has become Freeloader/Buyer due to an affair

the Freeloader is trying to make up their mind about which relationship they want the most

Harley says: "Their new beliefs bewilder the betrayed partner."

.... duh.... we KNOW that Dr. Harley !!

"The betrayed partner tries to argue from the Buyer's perspective~ 'How could you even think of having another relationship? We are together for life!'

The confused unfaithful partner shakes his or her head and finally says ....

'I guess we were not meant to be together.' ....

Harley says that what we need to understand is that the affair TOTALLY changed the WS's agreement.

Harley sites research that says

it is easier for most people to change their beliefs and values than it is to change their behavior


I REALLY DON'T LIKE THIS !!! I must say .... but we have to deal with what is true and not with what we like ... back to Harley...

He says when beliefs and values are in conflict with behavior .... guess which one wins ~~~> yep, you guessed it ~~~`> behavior wins .... the beliefs and values are scraped in order to accomodate the behavior (the affair)

yuk!

*** LINK *** to original thread

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Originally Posted By: Pepperband

Harley says: "Their new beliefs bewilder the betrayed partner."


Your bewilderment is part of the BS experience.
Your bewilderment is NORMAL.
You cannot fathom that the spouse you love has dumped the values you KNEW he had at one time.

I hope this helps.

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Originally Posted By: HoldHerHand


1) He is not you, and cannot see the world as you do, will not think of what he sees as you do.


I think you are misreading her problem.
She is not wondering why her WH doesn't "see the world" as she does.
She SEES evidence that he has scrapped his OWN values, and she can't fathom how this is even remotely comfortable for WH.

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Originally Posted By: Pepperband
I think you are misreading her problem.
She is not wondering why her WH doesn't "see the world" as she does.
She SEES evidence that he has scrapped his OWN values, and she can't fathom how this is even remotely comfortable for WH.


Pep, it's the same bowl of crap, you and I just smell it differently.


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"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer

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Originally Posted By: HoldHerHand

1) He is not you, and cannot see the world as you do, will not think of what he sees as you do.


Correct he is not me. Before this affair I thought we had an underlying value system. Do what is right. Raise the children so they know what is right. I always thought my WH and I were on the same page in our marriage.

Our values:

Honesty
Respect
Care
Accountablility

Today the struggle becomes right versus wrong.

WH: I had the affair and am leaving you because of you. You are always blaming me, you wanted to control me, you yelled to much at me. I had every right to lie to you and get out of this marriage because of you. The OW didn't cause this BS you caused this.

BS: I understand I made mistakes. You also did many things in the marriage that hurt and I built resentment. I am working to change me and what I caused in the marriage. Under no circumstances do I have any ownership of this divorce. This is 100% you and I will always tell the children you left us for another woman. I own none of this.

Who is right and who is wrong. What Pep said above about Dr. H makes sense. I am in the Buyer state. I married for life and all our problems can be fixed. There isn't anything yet he can do to me to make we want divorce. Call me stubborn, but I look at it as committed.

WH is in freeloader. Dump the wife, kids, home, careers and just start over. This marriage clearly sucked and didn't meet any of my expectations. Since it is all the wife's fault I will just trade her in for porn star, OW.

Now I am faced with raising my kids with the buyer vs. freeloader mentality.

I want him to be a buyer. How do you get a wayward to become a buyer? Who is really right? He may think freeloader is the best thing in life. I feel buyer is the best thing in life. Now we are in tug of war with this pending divorce.

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First, I.T.L., I just love the honesty in all your posts.
Straight forward, and honest. Gotta love that.


Originally Posted By: itistoughlove
Don't you think a struggle between value systems can warp a right vs. wrong choice?


There will be people who suggest there is no "right" and there is no "wrong" , and those people can be supporters of adultery.
The "follow your heart" mentality has wiggle room for just about any behavior.



Quote:
I know for me my WH has taken his previous value system and thrown it completely in the gutter. As a BS, my value system, is still the same. We played tug of war between two very different value systems.


Values can evolve over time. People mature and see what matters most as they get >ahem< older.
Mine have.
This is why human values are more meaningful if they come from some higher authority. (points upward)



Quote:
My WH tried to come back to the previous value system during our false recovery. This time as a BS I put up strong boundaries for him. Thus my value system went up a notch.


By this do you mean things like
radical honesty
transparency
???
What exactly are the "values" you "upped" a notch?



Quote:
The disconnect was so strong between value systems we ended up back and forth constantly on the right vs. wrong debate.


This is pretty important!
What exactly did you and WH go back and forth about?



Quote:
Part of me believes he is heading down this dark hell because he doesn't want to admit he is wrong. This will be the first time in 15 years I haven't cleaned up his mess. He feels like I threw him to the wolves.


What wolves?

Quote:
OW provides the comfort of his new value system. She doesn't hold him accountable.


Wellllllllll................
If they remain together, she will EXPECT him to value fidelity to her over cheating on her.
Bet on it.


Quote:

What happens now. He divorces me and my children are caught up in a wrong vs. right world.


The kids will be given an opportunity to view what happens when vows are not kept.
People get hurt.
A family is destroyed.
Lives are ruined.


Quote:
The only fear I have today is my doubt in myself for standing up to what is right.


What the heck?
twoxfour


Quote:

It is the saddest reason on the earth for a divorce. All because he doesn't admit he was wrong, and now does not want to upgrade his value system.


WH is prideful.
Such pride is the cement that keeps our feet stuck in sin.


Quote:
My only job now is to stand for what is right, "He thinks I am being righteous out of spite."


doh2

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I guess when I whittled down the transcripts, that I should have left the story/analogy in.

I'll paraphrase;

A woman goes into a highly respected teaching and research hospital for a surgery. When she awakens from the surgery, she looks down and notices the wrong side of her body is bandaged. She makes a complaint. A statement is issued; "The surgeon operated on the left side of the body because he was confident that he was operating on the correct side."

An invasive procedure was carried out to absolutely no benefit to the patient because "the surgeon.... was confident that he was... correct..."


Now, as outside observers, it is easy for us to form outrage; "How could he NOT KNOW it was the WRONG SIDE!?!?!?!?"

And this is where I will pull together the first presentation on this thread, with the most recent;

He didn't know because he couldn't face admitting that he was wrong, he could face being wrong, because he didn't allow himself to be vulnerable.

TL, your WH isn't allowing himself to be wrong. He's not allowing himself to be vulnerable.

It's strange, because I know that as a BS, I almost immediately began picking up where I had been wrong. And so, so many other BS's have done the same thing. I see it over and over and over... and I haven't even been here a full dang year yet. Some sink to self-blame, others to righteous indignation.

Yet, we, who were in the right, immediately recognize where we were in the wrong!

Why?

I haven't reached a point where I can fully answer that.

I have the what, I know the what. I have who. I have when. I have how.

I am driven by why. In all things, I am driven by why.

Not just here, not just this - academically, professionally, inter and intrapersonally.

In the last few months I have expanded my search for why on many things.

That is what I am sharing here. Some people will come for the ride, some won't.

It seems you may be searching for the same.

The one thing, though, is to be ready to not like the answer when we find it...


"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Niels Bohr

"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer

"Fair speech may hide a foul heart." - Samwise Gamgee LOTR
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ITL

Hey, perhaps we should be polite & start a new discussion since we've wandered away from HHH's chosen topic.

Sorry HHH

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Originally Posted By: Pepperband
ITL

Hey, perhaps we should be polite & start a new discussion since we've wandered away from HHH's chosen topic.

Sorry HHH


Pfff, NP Pep.

The only thing that bothered me was a sneaking suspicion that I might be lumped in with "some people."

crazy


"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Niels Bohr

"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer

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First, I.T.L., I just love the honesty in all your posts.
Straight forward, and honest. Gotta love that.


Originally Posted By: itistoughlove
Don't you think a struggle between value systems can warp a right vs. wrong choice?


There will be people who suggest there is no "right" and there is no "wrong" , and those people can be supporters of adultery.
The "follow your heart" mentality has wiggle room for just about any behavior.


Yes - My MIL is telling him you cannot help who you fall in love with. redflag Maturity Issue

Quote:
I know for me my WH has taken his previous value system and thrown it completely in the gutter. As a BS, my value system, is still the same. We played tug of war between two very different value systems.


Values can evolve over time. People mature and see what matters most as they get >ahem< older.
Mine have.
This is why human values are more meaningful if they come from some higher authority. (points upward)


Yes - Pre-children I had a lower level value system. I let him do more IB with his buddies. I let him have the porn, and I didn't say much when I disagreed morally with him. After children I wanted complete family mode. I felt we owed our children a higher standard on the morals, i.e. no more violent video games, no more porn, no more IB's. This is where the trouble started and his struggles with these "rules". I felt those behaviors were not in the best interest of the children so I tried to impose my will on him to have him remove them out of his life.

Quote:
My WH tried to come back to the previous value system during our false recovery. This time as a BS I put up strong boundaries for him. Thus my value system went up a notch.


By this do you mean things like
radical honesty
transparency
???
What exactly are the "values" you "upped" a notch?


Yes - I wanted to dishonesty, deceipt, omission, and his affair supporting friends out of our marriage and out of our lives. He didn't want to do this. He felt I was controlling him, disrespecting him, and he still wanted to be deployed and act like a bachelor. He said to me, "Why couldn't we just sweep this under the rug and you come back to me and sweep me off my feet." I realize now he believes I am 100% responsible for his affair.

Quote:
The disconnect was so strong between value systems we ended up back and forth constantly on the right vs. wrong debate.


This is pretty important!
What exactly did you and WH go back and forth about?


His friends, my boundaries, and I what I wanted him to do in the marriage. He didn't want to cease contact. He felt they could still be friends, and he didn't want to give up the affair supporting friends either. He trickle truthed me and that was very painful.


Quote:
Part of me believes he is heading down this dark hell because he doesn't want to admit he is wrong. This will be the first time in 15 years I haven't cleaned up his mess. He feels like I threw him to the wolves.


What wolves?

Wolves: Exposure - he felt I was out to destroy him by exposure.
Controlling him
He not being allowed to have a life.
I think he feels coming back to the marriage is his end to dishonest friends, IB, and his ability to control me. Yes, Yes it is!!!

Quote:
OW provides the comfort of his new value system. She doesn't hold him accountable.


Wellllllllll................
If they remain together, she will EXPECT him to value fidelity to her over cheating on her.
Bet on it.


She did the same thing while deployed to IRAQ - she will cheat on him!!!

Quote:

What happens now. He divorces me and my children are caught up in a wrong vs. right world.


The kids will be given an opportunity to view what happens when vows are not kept.
People get hurt.
A family is destroyed.
Lives are ruined.


Quote:
The only fear I have today is my doubt in myself for standing up to what is right.


What the heck?
twoxfour

My recovery is still in the works. I compromised my boundaries in the marriage out of my own fear. With time I will be stronger to respect myself and my boundaries. I am a work in progress.


Quote:

It is the saddest reason on the earth for a divorce. All because he doesn't admit he was wrong, and now does not want to upgrade his value system.


WH is prideful.
Such pride is the cement that keeps our feet stuck in sin.


This is hard for me to accept today. As an engineer I just want to jump in and fix it. I cannot fix it - I have to let it go, and allow him 100% freedom over his life. That is hard for me today.

Quote:
My only job now is to stand for what is right, "He thinks I am being righteous out of spite."


doh2



With Christ I can do all things!

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Sorry for the T/J

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Originally Posted By: HoldHerHand

Yet, we, who were in the right, immediately recognize where we were in the wrong!

Why?


HHH, this is purely off the top of my head (read: may not stand up to scrutiny!), and also may be way off the mark as I am not a BS:

1) Betrayal --> BS is made unwilling victim ("unwilling victim" = redundant, yes?)
1a) Unwilling victim --> unwillingly vulnerable
2) Pain of betrayal = pain of being vulnerable
3) Identify what made you vulnerable
3a) What made you vulnerable = perceived as what you did wrong
4) Prevent those wrongs from occurring again
4a) Prevent victimhood again

A different take, I think, than what you're getting at re: vulnerability. Possibly slanted by a "BS not wanting R" POV - I suspect it's a different and meatier answer when viewed through a "BS wanting R" lens.


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Originally Posted By: Mrs_Vanilla
Originally Posted By: HoldHerHand

Yet, we, who were in the right, immediately recognize where we were in the wrong!

Why?


HHH, this is purely off the top of my head (read: may not stand up to scrutiny!), and also may be way off the mark as I am not a BS:

1) Betrayal --> BS is made unwilling victim ("unwilling victim" = redundant, yes?)
1a) Unwilling victim --> unwillingly vulnerable
2) Pain of betrayal = pain of being vulnerable
3) Identify what made you vulnerable
3a) What made you vulnerable = perceived as what you did wrong
4) Prevent those wrongs from occurring again
4a) Prevent victimhood again

A different take, I think, than what you're getting at re: vulnerability. Possibly slanted by a "BS not wanting R" POV - I suspect it's a different and meatier answer when viewed through a "BS wanting R" lens.


It's interesting logic - but I'm in the same position as you are, Mrs. V - I am looking at it through the same "slant."

I see my H now, shut down again like he was for most of our pre-A M. When he opened up to me during our initial recovery - made himself vulnerable, perhaps understanding that it was what I had wanted, I rewarded him with DDay #2. Sensing he had made himself vulnerable, he walled himself back up again, to try and keep me from hurting him anymore... confused

I dunno.


FWW

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Originally Posted By: Mrs_Vanilla
Originally Posted By: HoldHerHand

Yet, we, who were in the right, immediately recognize where we were in the wrong!

Why?


HHH, this is purely off the top of my head (read: may not stand up to scrutiny!), and also may be way off the mark as I am not a BS:

1) Betrayal --> BS is made unwilling victim ("unwilling victim" = redundant, yes?)
1a) Unwilling victim --> unwillingly vulnerable
2) Pain of betrayal = pain of being vulnerable
3) Identify what made you vulnerable
3a) What made you vulnerable = perceived as what you did wrong
4) Prevent those wrongs from occurring again
4a) Prevent victimhood again

A different take, I think, than what you're getting at re: vulnerability. Possibly slanted by a "BS not wanting R" POV - I suspect it's a different and meatier answer when viewed through a "BS wanting R" lens.


I think if you were to amalgamate this with WPG, we may have a winner. Specifically 4, and 4a.

Getting to that point and preventing victimization, I think we tend to overprotect and stop allowing vulnerability consciously and unconsciously.


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"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer

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1) Betrayal --> BS is made unwilling victim ("unwilling victim" = redundant, yes?)
1a) Unwilling victim --> unwillingly vulnerable
2) Pain of betrayal = pain of being vulnerable
3) Identify what made you vulnerable
3a) What made you vulnerable = perceived as what you did wrong
4) Prevent those wrongs from occurring again
4a) Prevent victimhood ag
ain


Mmmmmm I like that just find myself in a stuck place, I did 1,2,3,3a. then 4 but in doing so found who I am and stopped being vulnerable, got strong, got myself sorted.

His A continued for another 5 years under the guise of Just friends, (yes I know, stupid, but when the s**t hit the fan I discovered I wasn't vulnerable a second time, I was tough, cool and calm (ish).

Now I don't need him, some days not even sure I want him, but by not being vulnerable I don't activate his KISA which is quite sad for him as he needs to be needed.

So what do I do now ........ I want it to work but I can't afford to need him just yet in case he blows it all up in my face.

Guess I am feeling like this today as it's OW daughters Bday and he is very triggered and upset but won't talk just miserable. I can manage my triggers, just can't manage his!


Me 50
WH 52
WH in A 6 yrs in total, last 5 yrs JGF (Not!)
DD final 1.12.10
NC letter sent 3.12.10

Working at being the best I can be, the rest is up to you.

He is still a plonker, but he is my plonker!
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Originally Posted By: Tanam
1) Betrayal --> BS is made unwilling victim ("unwilling victim" = redundant, yes?)
1a) Unwilling victim --> unwillingly vulnerable
2) Pain of betrayal = pain of being vulnerable
3) Identify what made you vulnerable
3a) What made you vulnerable = perceived as what you did wrong
4) Prevent those wrongs from occurring again
4a) Prevent victimhood ag
ain


Mmmmmm I like that just find myself in a stuck place, I did 1,2,3,3a. then 4 but in doing so found who I am and stopped being vulnerable, got strong, got myself sorted.

His A continued for another 5 years under the guise of Just friends, (yes I know, stupid, but when the s**t hit the fan I discovered I wasn't vulnerable a second time, I was tough, cool and calm (ish).

Now I don't need him, some days not even sure I want him, but by not being vulnerable I don't activate his KISA which is quite sad for him as he needs to be needed.

So what do I do now ........ I want it to work but I can't afford to need him just yet in case he blows it all up in my face.

Guess I am feeling like this today as it's OW daughters Bday and he is very triggered and upset but won't talk just miserable. I can manage my triggers, just can't manage his!


I'd like to defer to V and WPG here (or any other FWS, for that matter), but here's my thought as I see from what I observe here;

Both sides of the equation retract their vulnerability.

The BS retracts vulnerability due to betrayal, the WS retracts vulnerability due to the fear of rejection.


Now, reading your post, Tanam. You are extending empathy to your H about his triggers.

This is HUGE. When we stop our empathy towards our (W/B)S due to betrayal/rejection, we cannot progress.

Extending empathy is the first baby-step.

The next step is this; extending safety.


Maybe you can't help him handle his triggers, but you can empathize, and provide safety for him to be vulnerable to you.


"H, I realize that today is hard for you. I want you to know that you can talk to me. I want you to know that I am here for you, and that I am here for you when you hurt."


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Basically creating a safe zone. I am working on this for myself.

My WH did not feel safe because of my AO's. I used AO's because he continuously kept hurting me. I didn't know how to communicate to him to stop hurting me and just love me. I felt so alone in his prescence. This triggered me to yell more because I was so frustrated by not getting him to change. The cycle went round and round.

Today - I am trying to fully understand AO's and DJ's for what they really are in terms of poor coping mechanisms.

I think to lesson our vulerability we have to understand the full scope of radical honesty, boundaries, and strength.

For Example ARK said this a while back on mimi's thread:

Quote:
One thing I told my WH was that he had become a liar and a cheater and I knew that was not "him"- I couldn't let him be that kind of person. You can use this technique on your WS too. For example, if he wants to discuss houses with you, you say, "I can't let you go behind OW's back with me, it isn't fair to her to let her believe she has a future with you when you are planning otherwise. I can't be party to you being dishonest. Because I respect you and I know that is not the kind of man you want to be" You take it away from you being the injured party. NOT "you hurt me so much, I have to be away from you" RATHER "I have to protect you and your dignity by distancing myself from this lying behavior". I don't know if this makes sense.


that is an amazing approach..it emcompasses the whole package on such different level..

the debunking of the WS's pull to wallow in overwhelming guilt and shame...to the point of sabotaging recovery...

the abilility to show forgiveness and moving aways from what was....

the ability to put in to actions not just the words the meaning of honesty etc...

the ability to show support and hope that people can change....

It's like a huge piece of the puzzle right there in your own words...!!!!


*** For me this is how I want to become stronger and lesson my vulnerability to the pain. I want to see honesty at all its levels. I want to look at the situation from a place of forgiveness. I want the ability to have this boundary when I fully understand how it works, because I truly believe this will allow the least amount of pain in my life.

I guess I am trying to get to a place that letting go of my husband and moving on in my life can be justified in my mind by his lack of character today. We all know waywards can be different. Looking at my WH and OW as the dishonest, immoral characters that they are today versus the pain they cause me is a challenge.

I finally realize for my own sanity I can no longer look at them as (The two them vs. me). I don't want to be a victim of the pain anymore.

Tough~

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Oh, epiphanies.

I believe one of the greatest designs in MB is that it gives spouses a common language with which to communicate with each other.

However, the language in and of itself isn't the full beauty of this.

The language is the first step. The next step, is bringing that common language to common context.

So, given that, and given the Basic concepts, let's talk about the coin of honesty.

On one side of the coin, you have Openness and Honesty;

Quote:
Those with a need for honesty and openness want accurate information about their spouses' thoughts, feelings, habits, likes, dislikes, personal history, daily activities and plans for the future. If their spouse does not provide honest and open communication, trust is undermined and the feelings of security can eventually be destroyed. They cannot trust the signals that are being sent and feel they have no foundation on which to build a solid relationship. Instead of adjusting, they feel off balance; instead of growing together, they feel as if they are growing apart.


Ok, good enough.

Then, we have a Love Buster, dishonesty;

Quote:
Dishonesty is the strangest of the five Love Busters. Obviously, no one likes dishonesty, but sometimes honesty seems even more damaging. What if the truth is more painful than a lie?

When a wife first learns that her husband has been unfaithful, the pain is often so great that she wishes she had been left ignorant. When a husband discovers his wife's affair, it's like a knife in his heart -- and he wonders if it would have been better not knowing. In fact, many marriage counselors advise clients to avoid telling spouses about past infidelity, saying that it's too painful for people to handle. Besides, if it's over and done with, why dredge up the sewage of the past?

It's this sort of confusion that leads some of the most well-intentioned husbands and wives to lie to each other, or at least give each other false impressions. They feel that dishonesty will help them protect each other's feelings.


Alright. Simple

We all arrived here with some simple understanding and value in Honesty and Openness, and some simple understanding and dislike for Dishonesty.

What we have lacked, is a proactive context in to which to place both of these things. In fact, look around and read the reactions we have to these concepts.

The reaction to Dishonesty is often a furious one. It's a one-two punch; it fails to fulfill the emotional need of H&O, and is in and of itself a love buster.

The reaction is usually a FLURRY of Love Busters by the offended spouse - Angry Outbursts, Selfish Demands, and Disrespectful Judgements.

Ok. We following?

Now, let's stop and reflect in the MB context as to what is going on in this situation.

Dishonesty, Angry Outbursts, Selfish Demands, and Disrespectful Judgements are particularly related Love Busters for one peculiar reason; each and every one of them is most often deployed either as a way to try to have our needs met, or to protect our feelings or (per our own thinking) our spouse's feelings.

They usually fail.

Now, let's go back to H&O.

Given our normal evaluation of honesty, we do NOT view it as an emotional need.

Read that again.

Stop, and think about it.

The very first thing we do to ANYONE who fails to be Honest and Open is to immediately unleash a torrent of Disrespectful Judgements against them - we question their morality, their integrity... we launch an attack at the very fiber of their being.

Even if we don't do this externally to our spouse, we do it in our head and heart when they fail at H&O.

What often results here is a focus on the LB aspect of the exchange; well, just STOP being dishonest then!

This is foolhardy. When one person is here angry that their spouse, who is not here, has been dishonest or isn't meeting the need of Honest and Open... the usual response is to focus on the LB behavior of the absent spouse.

crazy

No.

The solution is for the offended spouse not to focus on the Love Buster, but to focus on what they can do to have their need met. How do we have our needs met? By making it pleasant and safe for our spouse to meet that need.


The solution, is for you to begin to contextualize H&O as your emotional need, not a given (SD), not a lack of values on the part of your spouse (DJ), and not a reason to treat them like crap (AO).


Keep your side of the street clean, folks.

Last edited by HoldHerHand; 06/25/11 02:01 PM.

"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Niels Bohr

"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer

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Originally Posted By: HoldHerHand
I'd like to defer to V and WPG here (or any other FWS, for that matter), but here's my thought as I see from what I observe here;

Both sides of the equation retract their vulnerability.

The BS retracts vulnerability due to betrayal, the WS retracts vulnerability due to the fear of rejection.


I think you're pretty dead on here. I can't speak for the BS, but as a WS...I allow myself to be vulnerable to an extent, but I'm afraid of really blowing down the doors and letting H completely see my heart. On the one hand, I'm afraid he'd see me as "needy" and there's that whole "men don't want to be pursued" thing. Afraid of scaring him away, maybe. But that's not the whole story. I'm afraid that if I let him see how much pain I am in, that he simply won't care. I replay things he said to me in the past, and fear that I won't be believed.

No, I'm not happy...but do I prefer the half-life that I have now, having him at least a tiny bit, over not having him at all?

Yes. And the fear of losing that stops me cold. And that's where I am failing.


FWW

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Agreed on the fear of rejection from the (F)WS POV.

I would also add (and maybe this is my own particular neurosis, unique to me alone) that a retraction of one's/FWS's vulnerability is done out of distrust, or fear of betrayal of that vulnerability.

It is fear of rejection, partly, but it is compounded by fear of betrayal. We see for many WSs that they would never, not in a million years, have thought they would ever cheat. Thus, when they do cheat, it's a pretty big self-betrayal. If they didn't know themselves enough to see that coming, how can you trust that someone else - someone to whom you have allowed yourself to be vulnerable - won't turn around and, whether they intend to or not, betray that vulnerability?

That encompasses a fear of rejection, of course, but it feels like more than that. Again, maybe it's only in my head and not others'.

Also, I think there is an element, at least for most FWSs, of not being worthy. We messed it all up, we are in the wrong, so who are we to foist the burden of our vulnerability on our victim? It feels like saying: "Here, here is this huge precious thing of my being vulnerable to you. Taking care of it, guarding it, protecting it, will take work, and I know I just dropped a nuclear bomb in our marriage, but could you go ahead and just add this to the list of things you're already dealing with because of me? Thanks!"

Dunno. dontknow


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WPG

Thanks for that, I think that does help me to see why my H can't be open or vulnerable, there have been times in the past when he has tried and I admit there have been times when I have used that to stick a knife in him.

There, well, what did you expect......if you hadn't....suck it up

So yes why so suprised that this time he said nothing for fear of further rejection.

Before I went to bed last night I took his face in my hands, told him it was OK to hurt, I don't have a monopoly on pain and that I was here. I kissed him and went to bed.

This morning he seems brighter and sunday morning SF very pleasant!

Baby steps indeed


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DD final 1.12.10
NC letter sent 3.12.10

Working at being the best I can be, the rest is up to you.

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From Hagakure;

Quote:
At the time when there was a council concerning the promotion of a certain man, the council members were at the
point of deciding that promotion was useless because of the fact that the man had previously been involved in a
drunken brawl. But someone said, "If we were to cast aside every man who had made a mistake once, useful men
could probably not be come by. A man who makes a mistake once will be considerably more prudent and useful
because of his repentance.
I feel that he should be promoted.''
Someone else then asked, "Will you guarantee him?" The man replied, "Of course I will."
The others asked, "By what will you guarantee him?"
And he replied, "I can guarantee him by the fact that he is a man who has erred once. A man who has never once
erred is dangerous
." This said, the man was promoted.


Note the key term; repentance.

Last edited by HoldHerHand; 07/10/11 12:52 PM.

"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Niels Bohr

"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer

"Fair speech may hide a foul heart." - Samwise Gamgee LOTR
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Also from Hagakure;

Quote:
Shame and repentance are like upsetting a pot of water. When a friend of mine listened to the way that a man who had stolen his sword ornament confessed, he felt compassion. If one will rectify his mistakes, their traces will soon disappear.


"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Niels Bohr

"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer

"Fair speech may hide a foul heart." - Samwise Gamgee LOTR
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Originally Posted By: HoldHerHand



Quick notes;

Quote:
...why we sometimes misunderstand the signs around us, and how we behave when that happens, and what all of this can tell us about human nature.

...most of us do everything we can to avoid thinking about being wrong, or at least to avoid thinking about the possibility that we ourselves are wrong... We all know everybody in this room makes mistakes. The human species, in general, is fallible -- okay fine.

But when it comes down to me right now, to all the beliefs I hold, here in the present tense, suddenly all of this abstract appreciation of fallibility goes out the window -- and I can't actually think of anything I'm wrong about. And the thing is, the present tense is where we live.

...we all kind of wind up traveling through life, trapped in this little bubble of feeling very right about everything.

...it is possible to step outside of that feeling... it is the single greatest moral, intellectual and creative leap you can make.


So why do we get stuck in this feeling of being right?

How does it feel -- emotionally -- how does it feel to be wrong? Dreadful. Thumbs down. Embarrassing.

...but they're answers to a different question. You guys are answering the question: How does it feel to realize you're wrong?

Realizing you're wrong can feel like all of that and a lot of other things, right? ...it can be devastating, it can be revelatory, it can actually be quite funny... But just being wrong doesn't feel like anything.

Most of the time, we don't have any kind of internal cue to let us know that we're wrong about something, until it's too late.

...you've already learned, first of all, that people who get stuff wrong are lazy, irresponsible dimwits -- and second of all, that the way to succeed in life is to never make any mistakes.

We learn these really bad lessons really well.

...we freak out at the possibility that we've gotten something wrong. Because according to this, getting something wrong means there's something wrong with us. So we just insist that we're right, because it makes us feel smart and responsible and virtuous and safe.



...trusting too much in the feeling of being on the correct side of anything can be very dangerous.


This internal sense of rightness that we all experience so often is not a reliable guide to what is actually going on in the external world. And when we act like it is, and we stop entertaining the possibility that we could be wrong...


(MB note; this section perfectly explains how disrespectful judgements operate)

Think for a moment about what it means to feel right. It means that you think that your beliefs just perfectly reflect reality. And when you feel that way, you've got a problem to solve, which is, how are you going to explain all of those people who disagree with you? ...most of us explain those people the same way, by resorting to a series of unfortunate assumptions. The first thing we usually do ...is we just assume they're ignorant. They don't have access to the same information that we do, and when we generously share that information with them, they're going to see the light... When that doesn't work... then we move on to a second assumption, which is that they're idiots. ...when that doesn't work ... [we assume] they know the truth, and they are deliberately distorting it for their own malevolent purposes. So this is a catastrophe.

This attachment to our own rightness keeps us from preventing mistakes when we absolutely need to and causes us to treat each other terribly.


The miracle of your mind isn't that you can see the world as it is. It's that you can see the world as it isn't.


...our capacity to screw up, it's not some kind of embarrassing defect in the human system, something we can eradicate or overcome. It's totally fundamental to who we are. Because, unlike God, we don't really know what's going on out there.

...you need to step outside of that tiny, terrified space of rightness and look around at each other and look out at the vastness and complexity and mystery of the universe and be able to say, "Wow, I don't know. Maybe I'm wrong."



and bump?


"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Niels Bohr

"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer

"Fair speech may hide a foul heart." - Samwise Gamgee LOTR
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Boppin' around reading old stuff... the videos on vulnerability and the power of being wrong provide me with some mantras;

Quote:
...the people who have a strong sense of love and belonging believe they're worthy of love and belonging. That's it. They believe they're worthy. And to me, the hard part of the one thing that keeps us out of connection is our fear that we're not worthy of connection...

..these folks had, very simply, the courage to be imperfect. They had the compassion to be kind to themselves first and then to others, because, as it turns out, we can't practice compassion with other people if we can't treat ourselves kindly.

...they were willing to let go of who they thought they should be in order to be who they were, which you have to absolutely do that for connection.

...what made them vulnerable made them beautiful.

...the willingness to say "I love you" first, the willingness to do something where there are no guarantees, the willingness to breathe through waiting for the doctor to call after your mammogram. They're willing to invest in a relationship that may or may not work out. They thought this was fundamental.

...the way to live is with vulnerability and to stop controlling and predicting.

...you cannot selectively numb emotion. You can't say, here's the bad stuff. Here's vulnerability, here's grief, here's shame, here's fear, here's disappointment, I don't want to feel these.

You can't numb those hard feelings without numbing the affects, our emotions. You cannot selectively numb. So when we numb those, we numb joy, we numb gratitude, we numb happiness. And then we are miserable, and we are looking for purpose and meaning, and then we feel vulnerable, so then we have a couple of beers and a banana nut muffin. And it becomes this dangerous cycle.


Quote:
...you've already learned, first of all, that people who get stuff wrong are lazy, irresponsible dimwits -- and second of all, that the way to succeed in life is to never make any mistakes.

We learn these really bad lessons really well.

...we freak out at the possibility that we've gotten something wrong. Because according to this, getting something wrong means there's something wrong with us. So we just insist that we're right, because it makes us feel smart and responsible and virtuous and safe.



...trusting too much in the feeling of being on the correct side of anything can be very dangerous.

This internal sense of rightness that we all experience so often is not a reliable guide to what is actually going on in the external world. And when we act like it is, and we stop entertaining the possibility that we could be wrong...

This attachment to our own rightness keeps us from preventing mistakes when we absolutely need to and causes us to treat each other terribly.

...our capacity to screw up, it's not some kind of embarrassing defect in the human system, something we can eradicate or overcome. It's totally fundamental to who we are. Because, unlike God, we don't really know what's going on out there.


"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Niels Bohr

"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer

"Fair speech may hide a foul heart." - Samwise Gamgee LOTR
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Thank you for posting these thoughts, Triple-H!

I can't tell you how much I needed reminding of these very things today.

Very thought-provoking and wise.


"The #1 reason why people give up so quickly is because they tend to look at how far they still have to go, rather than how far they've gotten."

Me, FBW(46) H, FWH (43)
M - 21 yrs & counting
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S (18)
S (16)
Surviving and Thriving since November 2010 thanks to MB!
My Recovery Thread: http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2538986#Post2538986
My Original Thread: http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2457141&page=1

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