Yes NG lol
Mom and Dad told us its work
Many churches offer pre marital counseling
There are tons of married couples out there with problems that we could learn from
But do we listen?
Nope we know what we want and will never need help because we're "special"
It's different with us
We are unique
We know better
We really love each other more than the couples who have problems
We just know because our hearts tell us so that's why

But we change, even the men, it's not like the George Carlin quote, men change too but they don't necessarily change like women planned, or they do and they get tired of that person anyways, and they get tired of tweaking thier husbands

Yep comparison and dishonest manipulation is the main enemy of marriages. If you can't dedicate to loving them no matter what, and that includes in sickness, I guess you shouldn't get married

But there is only so much wacky deception abuse anybody should accept and stay married. I don't think we should stay in a marrige, or any relationship and take that forever. That's not love either because and to let them get away with it is not love

We are ultimately responsible for what we are willing to take from others and that's why we stand before God and take the vows
We gotta let him in on it

Thanks NG and CP.

My wife is confused. MC today was hard. I felt so connected this weekend. But she did not necessarily. She had a gunny sack of disappointments. Much smaller. Not as bad as in the past. I reacted better and so did she.

But so often it just feels like she is determined to feel bad and find blame in me. Even the smallest little things.

I was so delighted in her company and euphoric at times this weekend. And she tells our counsellor she felt run down, and put upon, and overwhelmed, and angry with me for several minor infractions (that she held inside.... that does no good now does it?).

Its rejecting to be enjoying a weekend and feeling so much love and trying so hard and yet.... the feelings are not returned.

So she started to develop all these stories in MC...
"It wasn't until about 6PM Sunday night that you finally realized you needed to pick up the slack and help out." (so outrageous... I set up for the birtday party, fixed meals, did all the laundry together, took all the children to Church while she stayed home and napped, I paid all the bills, balanced the checkbook, bathed children, put them to bed... never watched one second of sports or any other kind of TV)

I cannot understand her filter. I believe (IMO) its the depression. She cannot understand why she feels the way she feels. "Overwhelmed, tired, hubby is just one more person to take care of, he doesn't take care of me..." She feels depressed and everything is just...so...much...effort. So she just feels it has to do with my presence.

Okay, let's look at the good news:

Your wife is at least open to the possibility of strengthening and augmenting your marriage. There appears to be no OM presence/activity. She is participating in MC sessions, evidently quite openly and freely.

And on the less-than-good side:

Her depression (or some related mental/emotional disconnect) is affecting her ability to accurately interpret your actions in satisfying and supporting her needs.

Does that about sum it up?

If, as I believe you believe, this is a symptom of issues that are not EA-caused (and possibly EA-causative?) you know that professional evaluation is highly indicated. Right now the best thing you can do is continue your efforts to satisfy her needs and wants, DOCUMENTING EVERYTHING, and have her (and more importantly, an unbiased observer like your MC) understand that what she "thinks" is not what "is".

This might be a very slow process, Stretch.

A good plan. Did you tell the MC this:


Was there a reason that your wife complained about your not helping out? Maybe something you missed or don't think is that big a deal but is to her? Just thinking out loud.

But I second NG's thought that you need the third-party to referee this kind of discussion if your wife isn't going to hear what you have to say. I'd try to bump up the MC sessions if possible.

Though I was never a slack in housework, that kind of "filter" does sound familiar. Are you sure there hasn't been another contact attempt?

it seems to me that your W doesnt have a strong understanding of her depression and how it operates. The needle moves on her mood independently of external factors. She needs to understand that it is self-generated and it is up to her, not anyone else, to own this and to intercede when things are going the wrong way.

Being married to someone diagnosed with depression, I would advise ducking if stretch told that to his wife

But, yes, that's the hard part--getting the depressed person to actively engage in their own treatment.

She hears that. I believe she is more actively engaged in her own treatment now. I also believe the MC is independantly observing that what she "thiks" isn't what "is."

He is the one who tells her, "Wow, you put quite a filter on him."

She tends to say, "But my feelings are real. What I said I heard and felt was real to me." Unfortunately, you can't win in that scenario. In the most absurd metaphor... its as if I say the sky is blue and she says, "yes but I felt you say the sky is purple." The mysteries of women, eh?

I came home, I was happy to be home, I wanted to help her, I did help her. But she felt... I wasn't helping... it was easier managing the home and family alone, H was one more person that had needs, one more thing to take care of... (Ummm.. you need to find the will and energy to meet your spouses needs, yes? And want to have UA time... Imagine a husband that said, "I am too worn down from work to give your needs attention." Oh yeah, that was me once upon a time. And many of you too.... where did that lead?)

The MC wants to help us find support in each other. He advises that since I want to be her support, and have her happy that we are both home together, I need to be more outward in my support. Or more obvious. I dk. I am kind of confused and frustrated by that. Do I point out everytime I am doing something supportive? I need more clarification about that one. I think he means, let your intentions be known.

He also said, "You cannot manage her depression. That's hers. You are working on being the best person you want to be. For her, for the kids, for yourself."

I told him, "That realization came to me about two months ago and I have been stable and confident ever since."

She was very wonderful and loving and nice and made a big effort last evening and all this morning. She is trying.

@NG - yes there are plenty of positives. And it takes a long time.

Last night as we fell asleep I hugged her close and said,
"I know I don't always understand, I don't always know what you feel or what you want. I hope that you will someday TRUST in me that I am DEVOTED to trying, that I love you and its my desire to understand you, and your feelings and needs."

HHH - I hadn't read that for a very long time. Thanks!

I have an entirely new perspective now.

By the way, I should mention, she raised her Zoloft from 100mg to 150mg. Could that be making a major difference? That, plus its June and the weather is much nicer?

Could be. For my wife, I tend to notice changes after about two weeks when the doses are changed. Of course, if she skips a dose, I usually notice a difference the next day.

My understanding is that it's not an exact science and it takes a bit to find the "right" dosage or med combination. She should just keep up with her psychiatrist. I really believe that everyone's mileage truly does vary with these medications.

True

Also, NW, did you also sense any behavior shift since your Contact episode in April?

I think mine started to shake out of the fog after getting caught making contact.

A. It was suddenly real. (i.e. this ain't games and dumb fantasy anymore. He might not be around if I don't wake up)
B. I started to clank. End of doormat. Changed my sig line. Realized I can thrive and I deeply desire to do so with her. But without her may happen - her choice.

I think point "B" set in when I saw the last contact and she knew that this wasn't going to fly any longer ("A"). Me having her talk to OM's wife was key, I think. So, yes, there was that behavior shift ...a little less foggy day by day, kind of reminds me of your wife.

You know, a bunch of small starts that took a while to get rolling. I think the shift was in May when she said that, for the first time, she actually prayed for the marriage.

She hasn't crashed (depression-wise) since the affair ended, but still has those blah days sometimes. We talk about it, and she's quick to point out that it's no indication of how she feels about the marriage.

Things change so fast, next month you'll probably think differently. Keep up with the UA time, though. Plan a trip if you can.

Planning summer vacation's has been hard. She has a hard time expressing what she wants.

Pretty nice thing she said on the way to the airport Tuesday (I took her to the airport, she has a five night trip to NYC for a writer's conference.) She said, "There is a conf in Seattle in the fall and it would be nice to have you along. We could do some National Park hiking too. Just the two of us."

She knows that is a trip I would really love.

As for the summer trip plans, its hard. We always made plans with my sisters and her friends. Camping every year. That's been ruined for the year. Everyone is sad and mourning. But it just can't happen this year. My sisters would strangle her friends -- I'm not even joking. I am too betrayed by her friends and that's gonna take time. Lots of time.

So camping just as a family makes her sad. Planning a beach and pool resort is something I try to do... but her heart's not in it. I don't know why. Big thing I am doing is focusing on trying to hear her wants and desires. I am the big vacation planner guy. But then I get hammered for being controlling and making all the choices. So I am eagerly supporting her as she decides what she wants for a family vacation.

She is with her group of Romanace Writers at a convention in NYC. Sharing hotel room with 3 women. Very safe and healthy group IMO. Lots of strong marriages. Well.... several among the writer friends I know.

She is excited about networking, feeling self esteem.

She has expressed gratitude for how I support her. Texted and called eager to tell me exciting things. She said some of the beefy models on the cover of the books look like her hubby.
(geez in that genre there is a lot of beef on the book covers -- fortunately those models don't actually show up in person at the convention. Just a lot of middle aged women who like to write.)

So.... I think its good for her to be away and for me to be home with my kids for the week. Parenting in my way. Connecting with my kids. Weather is great and we are having a lot of fun.

I sense that she might even have some longing for me.

Here's the difference between us:

When I was away for a week on the church trip... she said she felt guilty because when I came home it broke her rhythm. And some things were easier to do with me gone... without co-parenting and negotiating/delegating... without having to meet my needs.

Now with her gone... I too indeed appreciate the simplicity of doing things your own way without co-parenting. But I also really, really miss her co-parenting and support and getting connected throughout the day.... just... doing stuff together.

Another annoying problem in our marriage... when I leave for an extended trip the house kind of falls apart; When I am here in charge for an extended period... I start getting lots of projects done and clean up / honey-do's and organizing.

Said another way... when I return from a trip the house is in worse shape (IMO) When she returns I have it in better shape (again IMO). I will have ALL laundry done when she returns and there are no bills to pay or dishes and probably one or two new homey knick knacks and a project done in the house or yard.

This could be just our differences. And perhaps if I were SAHM for 10+ years I might lose any will to give a damn about the house... But I think this is a difference between us and has always been a stumbling block... maybe DS is a higher EN that I am willing to admit.

Sounds cool stretch, specially the part about calling you excited about her day.

A SAHM for 10+ years is definatly something that can wear down a women in todays world, specially one who can hold thier own outside the home or in thier own special field.

DS might be something she has lost her passion for, because it is so underated and the kids are older also. I see nothing more manly than a guy doin the dishes for his wife whenever he can, or being with the kids so she can get a break. DS is something I took pride in doing when I was single, I didn't marry to have a maid. I made sure my kids knew that too.

Maybe the switch off of DS will be good for awhile, and you can discuss fairness about it and what standards she would be proud of also.Then you can come to a happy medium that wont be a stumbling block, because its all been done automatically and is habit then
Communication buddy, honest and radical and fearless, yep thats good.

True. So true.
My DS EN has been under-met. She knows it -- but we have not communicated well. Often I am pretty sure I carry more than half the DS role (on top of 100pct of the FS.) I don't know how to express my needs. Too afraid I will do it wrong and sound like a cave man.

Try the counselor's office if you think you'll come across as chauvinistic.

I'm the same way with DS.

perhaps I will try the counselor's office to discuss unmet DS needs again. I am afraid because we spent time there with the first really bad counsellor when she was still hiding the A etc. We just got nowhere. There is history there.

Its such a great feeling when she takes some time in a day, maybe when I am gone, to do something special around the house. I come home and it really feels great. If I came home and the backyard was weeded, or her junk counters were cleared, or a new picture was hung, or a new carpet was purchased, or a flower pot was filled..... it would put a smile on my face. Probably because it makes me feel like there is effort to build the home... metaphorically, to build the M and family. (How about that leap and link... I've been talking to too many therapists) It demonstrates some hope, stability, commitment... and some non-depressed energy and initiative on her part.

Perhaps if I explained it that way with the MC... illustrated how its more a sign of Love... a Love language... and an EN... and not just a dissatisfied cranky stupid H that doesn't appreciate the person his W is other than a domestic servant, child raising, SF outlet. (That is the familiar story line believed by Pre-A WW's isn't it?)

At the MC last week I asked our MC about my personality. Did he see anything I should be tested for like: Aspbergers, Social Anxiety, ADHD, OCD.

This was a big focus of my wife and her PC and our first horsh*t MC. The story goes, they all knew about the A. Even when we finally started MC our first therapist knew about the affair, talked with my wifes PC in the same office. SO I was abused by all of them for months. Something going on in my life. Invisible barriers... etc.

Anyway, this moronic MC figured out after a few sessions that I should be tested for Social Anxiety and Aspbergers. (And he KNEW there was an A between us. Just so clueles as to what to do. Malpractice!)

So, its put to rest now. That was a bullsh*t chapter in our marriage work. I have three professionals now (my PC, our new MC, my physician) saying put that to rest.

I guess I would have liked some empathy from my W. Aome remorse for how difficult that was to live through. Some apology for all that abuse.

She explained it defensively, "I was at my wits end. I couldn't get through to you. I was grasping at any explanation. Don't you get that now?"

Yeah, but I would like to hear: "I'm sorry. That was really awful."

Just like that? Oh well, sure, but is it clear to you and your W, what had happened? The important bond of trust that is supposed to be worked on is between you and your wife. I am not sure how long it will take, but you should be able to hear those words IMO, once more of the fog clears. "I'm sorry, what I did was wrong, I should have done_______, can you forgive me?" Likewise from you, any accoutabilty or apologies.

It is not surprising though, that well meaning but clueless MCs and ICs can sometimes jump into the role that was supposed to have been your place in the marriage. Well it was once, but how alliances change.

Yes Stretch, it is time for a CP story, lol, I hope you can find the humor in it, and the encouragement also, because the safety we find in our spouses bond with us, is not because either of us are perfect, or allways right, but that we are devoted to share our lives with each other completly.

My WW had gotten straightened out about how much I loved her and was only acting in her concern years before this new story unfolded. When she was drinking and partying like a rockstar,(yeah, even her freinds would get after her, and call her "Movie Star" at times). It was no secret that she had some personality problems that stemmed from her upbringing, and that she could have used some counsel to help her deal with all her anxiety.


When I first heard her say to me, "I'm sorry, my nerves sometimes get to me, and I get so afraid, so I drink to calm my nerves, and I don't want you to think I am an alcoholic", then she broke into tears,

I told her,"Its understandable, but you need to see someone, there IS an answer, but drinking isn't it. What you need is to see a phsyichiatrist and work on this fear that is terrorising you, and maybe when your thoughts are overwhelming you, take a mild tranquilzer, to calm your nerves, because when you start the drinking, it brings back the fear of being your mother,(Mom was the town drunk bimbo used by many men because she was beautiful), and it makes you worse. A controlled dose under the right physicians guidance and dedicated insight to where these feelings come from is the only way to fight them.
There is an answer for this, and you can beat it, if you just find the right help, and you need a good doctor, not the booze, that only ends up making it worse."

That convo happened right after I first broke up with her, and she didn't even ask me why, she just dissapeared for a few days. Why did I break up with her? I could see that she had a problem with drinking, and personality changes when she drank, and while on a date, she was getting hit on by a bartender,(I knew the guy, and knew what he was up to), and instaed of leaving the bar with me, she looked at me and told me she would get a ride home. Yeah, well, as much as I liked her, that was a problem that had to be disscussed, and I did not realize the waters I was in. When I tried to talk to her about it later that night, as soon as I told her we should not see each other anymore, she bolted out of the room, and dissapeared into the bottle for a couple days. Yep, hook set, guilt creeped in, what did I do?

But fast forward a few years, after her pregnacy that was touch n go because of cervical cancer, and the birth of DD, and her continued binge drinking, untill it got worse, and when all her excuses for fear were eliminated. The cancer was removed, we got legally married, we had gotten back her son that was kidnapped,(and she treated him terrible BTW), I was making good money, and had a future with this profession, but she still drank, and it was getting worse. One day I realized life didn't have to be like this, and I sent all of them away, vowing to take the children away also.

Two years later, we had a false recovery. I say false, because the drinking issue was never brought to the forefront, and dealt with properly, along with all the damage it came from, to her phsyche,(Greek for soul), but in every way you could imagine, we recovered, down to extrodinary precautions, was so much like MB, it was working. Yes Stretch, that is why I am here, MB works, and I have seen what happens if you don't follow it precisely, but from those few years before her issues found a way to creep back into her our life, we were doing so well, we thought nothing could ever break us again.


So thats the setup to the part of the story that relates to what you were talking about. The part ten years later, when she had not only been falling into drinking again for a few years, but when I found out she was using heroin. See the issues she had, and I guess you can call them the fantasys she entertained, and the way she chased them, had only gone underground for awhile. She would never face that she was an alcoholic, and continued to blame everybody else for her problems, and let me tell you, she was a trained expert at it. One of the reasons she liked me, was because I was so understanding, but when I wouldn,t let Bullcrap go by, and called her on it, and insisted on the truth, she respected me.

But I still believed in reason, and I was willing to believe I also was not perfect, and somehow contributed to our situation, and wanted to find a way to help her back to sobriety. Maybe if I went to counselling, and laid bare all my fears and concerns, that she would also do the same. Maybe if I lead by example, and put myself under thier microscope, she might also follow suit. But I was dumb, beleiving that truth would will out, at least at the counsellors. See WW had it all figured out, she knew what to say, how to spin it, and when I said to them."I am concerned that my W has fallen into drug addiction and that it has effected her judgement in what shes doing" They took it as I was the problem, like many people, who believe that there is no way out for some but drugs, they saw me as some kind of tyrant or abusive person, and to be honest, I was allready feeling guilty anyways. Add to that my wife coached them all in the popular terms ahead of time, as she had a lifetime of avoiding facing her own issues, and my goose was cooked.

So the therapist, a nice young man, after bearing my soul of every negative question about myself, all my doubts and worrys, everything I could think of that was somewhat scary about me, my past, my fears, came to diagnose me as Bi-polar, with a possible personality disorder. Well I certainly hope so, I was a mess, but then again I was honest to a fault, beliveing in the truth, and was not afraid to say how I felt, putting my trust in his judgement. See I had for years before occasionally went to counsellors, because I WAS depressed, working to much, and even taken AntiDs,(No effect, No drugs ever precscibed really ever did anything for me, except make me sleep or spacey). I was not the one afraid to be put under the microscope, to be examined, to find out I was human. I had nothing to hide. I did want my wife to go though, because she would not deal with the emotional issues and triggers that would pull her back into the escapism of drinking.

Something I had feared a long time ago, when I left her for those two years, that I could feel her issues drawing me down because of her uncontrolled drinking, was that if I stayed with her like she was, I would become sick also, and I had to take care of myself, because my kids needed at least one well parent.

Yep, when we link ourselves and our souls together with someone for life, we take on thier weaknesses and issues also. when I created a life together with her, I also made myself responsible for that life, I was just not strong enough to handle all that I took on. So I had also allowed a little of that blindness and iresponsility she had to blame circumstances and everything else to be a reason for unaccountabilty for physical and mental/emotional health. So much for trying to bear it all.

Years of long work hours and letting myself be gaslighted had taken its toll. I was willing to bear it all, wait for her to have another revelation, and see that most of her problems were in her own mind, and also take the responsibilty. Kinda like when I was a kid, and my relationship with my father, but thats another story.

When she came to me and told me she was gonna move out, and was interested in a guy she met, who had a good job,(I had lost mine due to injury, but I was still able to house us till I healed), and that the guy had a house, a vette, a harley, did a little coke and of course was well liked at the local bar, well that was the end for me. The kids would be crushed, and all the addiction issues I helped hide over the years, would come to the forfront, because they allready knew Mom was never home, and was acting really wierd, now they would finnally figure out why. So much for being the big protector, and expecting to be appreciated.

So I picked up the phone to call the landlord, because I was not going to stay there with the kids, and have it be her crash pad where she could get ready for her dates, and keep her clothes, and her cuckhold husband pay for it. WW jumped me and hit me with the phone, I pushed her away with my good arm, and let her go. She called the boys in a frightned voice who were waiting on the porch, and my oldest came in and started to fight with me. They had no idea what was going on at the time, all they knew was Dad was mad about something.

So when that was over, they went to the store, and I said to myself,"Ok this is out of your hands CP, your wife has slipped over the edge, and you know she hates the place she is in, and blames everybody else for it also, Covering her transgressions and taking responsibility for this for years, when you allways felt that was BS anyways, and was enablement, did not help her, in fact it made her worse. No matter what, she needs help now that she is addicted, and authority has to step in. Time to call the police, and explain this to them, maybe they can force her into a program"

It didn't work out that way, when the cops came, I was outside, and I told them I would wait till they talked to my W. When they came out, they took me away in cuffs. See the boys knew nothing except Dad was responsible for everything, and I didn't develge over the years whatever Mom had done, and protected them from that kind of crap. I figured one day Mom might offer them an explaination of why Dad worked to much, and why times were hard when they were young, from her own perspective, once she had changed it. It was more important that they be allowed to be kids, and believe they were safe and loved. Something my W and I were allways concerned with, and truthfully one of the reasons I was attracted to her, kids were everything. So they sided with Mom, and all I could do was go with them quietly, as I taught the children to respect the police, and i was not afraid because I knew the truth would be served.

By the time I talked to the female poice officer, who was undoubtedly on her own personal quest to stop the violence from men who lose it with their women, even she could see that I was not what I was sold as, but at that point, even though I told her my concern was for my wife getting into a program, and for her mental health, she had allready made her decision.

See many men use heroin to attract women, and to control them, because the dopemine high also makes them sexually agressive. The cops know that, and so don't the courts, so a man who had "lost control" over his addicted wife, can have different meanings. I had no idea of that at the time, as I had no knowledge of heroin, only that it was addictive. I figured out that she was an addict because of how she acted a month before, the cramps and sweats, and I called her on it. "Did you get involved with anything bad when you were hanging around with (ToxicGF)?"

So bringing in the law, like I did, or even bringing her to her church, to get help, did no good. The counsellors I had hoped she would see for help, in the beginning of our relationship,(which she refused), and when she became an addict again/still, (Fifteen years later} can't force someone to open up and be real.

If we are willing to carry the load for someone who is not being realistic, indefinatly, while they insist they have no control over thier actions, they will let us take the blame, and we can even assume the symptoms of thier problems. There is a good reason why we vow those things to God when we marry and bring someone else into our lives so closely.

I have not turned into an addict, and I never will be,(Besides MB and ciggarttes Lol), but I still suffer the depression that come with the connection to trying to save someone who was overwhelmed by fear and dealt with it by escape mechanisms that over years took her life. In my case I learned the hard way not to try and save those that don't want to be saved, and only those with, "A broken and contrite heart", are willing to work on themselves. A bad IC, or MC, can do much damage, and restoring your wife and you to open and honest communication is what they are supposed to do, then you can learn together. Isn't that the point?

Sorry you had to go through that, and hope this MC will help you guys more, but don't forget as long as you both are working on this there is hope, and the center for MB is allways an option.

I know for certain recovery does not happen overnight, and we are allways learning and growing, it the together part we gotta work on.

God Bless