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I don't think it's the area. I live in a nice suburb. Most of my good friends live at least 2 hours away anyway.

My best friend, who I've known for 25 years, actually just got cheated on by her H. We are working through all of this together. I told her about the 3some and she was shocked and disappointed. She thinks it was because we were drunk, which is why we added no drinking at bars to our list of EPs. I don't know what I would do without her.


AKA: hurtagainbydavid, hurtingstill
Me: BW/WW 36
Him: WH 37 (2time2timer)
DD x 2: 8 and 5
H's 1st affair D-day: 10/2001
H's 2nd affair D-day: 1/16/11
My threesome w/H and OM: 7/21/11

Trying to fix the mess I helped make.
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Originally Posted by hbd
I don't think it's the area. I live in a nice suburb. Most of my good friends live at least 2 hours away anyway.

My best friend, who I've known for 25 years, actually just got cheated on by her H. We are working through all of this together. I told her about the 3some and she was shocked and disappointed. She thinks it was because we were drunk, which is why we added no drinking at bars to our list of EPs. I don't know what I would do without her.

If my H breaks NC and I have to go to plan B, I might move closer to her. She lives 3 hours away, near my parents.


AKA: hurtagainbydavid, hurtingstill
Me: BW/WW 36
Him: WH 37 (2time2timer)
DD x 2: 8 and 5
H's 1st affair D-day: 10/2001
H's 2nd affair D-day: 1/16/11
My threesome w/H and OM: 7/21/11

Trying to fix the mess I helped make.
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I think a woman could find out a whole lot about her man prior to marriage: Bat your eyelashes at him and ask him if he'd like to have a three-way with you and another woman. If he says yes, dump him and never look back.


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I heard back from Dr Harley. He didn't invite me to call the show (which is fine with me because I have stage fright about being on the radio). I've posted my email to him and his response below.

Here is the email I sent him:

"My husband and I have been together for 17 years, married almost 11. I'm 36 and he is 37. We have two beautiful daughters, age 5 and 8.

We have had a very turbulent relationship. I cheated on my husband with several one night stands before we were married and my husband had two affairs during our marriage (once before we had kids and then again last year). After the last affair, I found the Marriage Builders website and we read His Needs, Her needs together. I also read Surviving an Affair. After which, we put all of your suggestions in place.

We set up extraordinary precautions (no sharing personal information with opposite sex without partner by your side, no going out drinking w/o partner, etc.). We have undivided attention time 20 hours a week and family time 15 hrs week. We completed the needs questionnaire and work hard to meet each other's most important needs. We use the policy of joint agreement. Finally, and most importantly to us, we are very open and honest about everything (my #1 need).

It was through being COMPLETELY open and honest about sex that we both found that we like the same kind of ...ummm...kinky things. We also found that we both fantasized about a threesome with another man (I wanted to be with two men at once and he wanted that too). After several months of discussing this, we finally went ahead and did it.

I have felt some shame as a result of the threesome (it was adultery, after all), BUT at the same time, I feel closer with my husband because we shared it together. We enjoyed it together.

All of that being said, my questions are:

Could the fact that we weren't being open and honest about our interest in porn and kink be what caused us both to stray in the first place (our sf needs weren't being met the way we like them met)? You say that porn and thresomes are bad for marriage, but can it work if we are both enthusiastic, POJA, and do it together? If not, can you please tell us what we should do when porn and thresomes are the things that make SF enjoyable for both of us? Wouldn't we become bored and start looking elsewhere if we weren't meeting each other's SF needs the way we both enjoy having those needs met?"

Dr. Harley's response:

"I encourage sexual exclusivity in marriage for a whole host of reasons. In your case, I would avoid a threesome because so many of the couples I�ve counseled that did that became addicted to it, and it ruined their marriage. As it turns out, normal sex between a husband and wife doesn�t ever have to be boring unless there are alternatives outside of the marriage. So whenever you have sex, do it with each other and you�ll be fine. Don�t even self-stimulate unless you are doing it together.

Best wishes,
Willard F. Harley, Jr."




AKA: hurtagainbydavid, hurtingstill
Me: BW/WW 36
Him: WH 37 (2time2timer)
DD x 2: 8 and 5
H's 1st affair D-day: 10/2001
H's 2nd affair D-day: 1/16/11
My threesome w/H and OM: 7/21/11

Trying to fix the mess I helped make.
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Wow,

15 pages of beating up HBD, her husband, and their choices.

Tons of advice from putting in extraordinary precautions to going to plan B.

And the Good Doctor says simply "Don't do it".

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Originally Posted by schtoop
Wow,

15 pages of beating up HBD, her husband, and their choices.

Tons of advice from putting in extraordinary precautions to going to plan B.

And the Good Doctor says simply "Don't do it".

I know, right!!?


AKA: hurtagainbydavid, hurtingstill
Me: BW/WW 36
Him: WH 37 (2time2timer)
DD x 2: 8 and 5
H's 1st affair D-day: 10/2001
H's 2nd affair D-day: 1/16/11
My threesome w/H and OM: 7/21/11

Trying to fix the mess I helped make.
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 209
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hbd Offline OP
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He cc'd Joyce, maybe she will have more to say. IDK


AKA: hurtagainbydavid, hurtingstill
Me: BW/WW 36
Him: WH 37 (2time2timer)
DD x 2: 8 and 5
H's 1st affair D-day: 10/2001
H's 2nd affair D-day: 1/16/11
My threesome w/H and OM: 7/21/11

Trying to fix the mess I helped make.
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 11,650
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What I think he's saying there makes sense to me. Personally, if my h NEEDED an extra boost to be interested (be it someone else or props or porn) I would start to feel less connected to him. I know it would hurt his feelings if I told him that he alone wasnt going to be enough for forever.

I got the impression from your thread that the threesome was just 'for fun' but you are saying here that just the two of you, no porn, no games would get boring - really? Thats quite the put down you are giving each other.

My reading of Dr H is that sex only becomes boring when couples dont feel connected in other ways, so it spills into the bedroom

He has written an article about sex exclusivity and porn (here's the link http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5050a_qa.html)

Of course this article is different to your sitch because the porn use annoys the wife, however there are some pars I think relate to your situation

The longer he would avoid the pornographic videos and any other sexual material, and limit all of his sexual options to having sex with you, the more your sexual relationship would return to the way it was when you were first married.

But it won't be easy for him to give up his tapes or whatever else he uses for sexual release. Over the years, his methods of self-arousal have probably become very sophisticated and work extremely well -- much better, in fact, than his sex with you.

Sex should be exclusively reserved for the marital relationship for quite a few reasons. For one thing, sex is one of the easiest ways to deposit love units in marriage. To waste it's pleasure apart from each other is to miss an opportunity to build romantic love.


Even though the threesome was your fantasy too, you did feel jealous that HE wasnt more jealous. Thats because you want to be everything to him, and why shouldn't you be?

You have used the word 'desensitized' to describe your reaction to porn, DrH is saying to become resensitised, focus on each other.


What would you do if you were not afraid?

"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.

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Thanks, Indiegirl.

Yeah, I do get bored doing the same things over and over again with my H. I need to spice things up. It's just the way I am. It doesn't mean I'm not connected with my H. In fact, I feel it means that I'm more connected because some of the things I like are very embarrasing...these are things that I would only share with someone that I'm connected with.

I was disappointed that he wasn't more jealous, but we have talked that through and he says he was actually jealous. So, I'm feeling better about that now.

We will definitely focus more on each other and cool it on the other stuff.

Thanks for your comments. smile

Last edited by hbd; 08/01/11 03:27 PM.

AKA: hurtagainbydavid, hurtingstill
Me: BW/WW 36
Him: WH 37 (2time2timer)
DD x 2: 8 and 5
H's 1st affair D-day: 10/2001
H's 2nd affair D-day: 1/16/11
My threesome w/H and OM: 7/21/11

Trying to fix the mess I helped make.
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Posts: 3,093
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hbd,

One answer I can offer you is that jealousy stems from people wanting to be "number one" in the life of the person they love. An interesting concept, when you consider your idea that it is acceptable, even desirable, for three people to be in a triagulated relationship. What happens in the course of these types of relationships (not EVERY one, but most typically) is that one of the three people ultimately feels that he/she is second in line - and not "number one".

Let's face it - nobody wants to be the second one on the list when it comes to being loved. Or being pleasured. It is kind of natural for us to want to be first. Threesomes don't work long because of this feature of human beings.


When we look at marriages, we spend lots of time building that primary relationship. Then, when we bring a third into it, that threatens that "me first" position of the spouse. Of course! Because what else is the spouse to think? He/she is being replaced, or the potential is there. It just opens the door to the next step - which is affair behavior.


Your guilt is understandable. You did nothing to even the score. My analysis was correct, and your friend hit the nail on the head as well - which was to point out to you that you were (in her eyes) still "not even" with your husband in terms of sleeping around. You were still one affair short!

Gee. Now that we understand that this really does have some aspects of a revenge affair, we can look a little more closely at what it is.


Part kink. Part revenge. Part...what? I would say plain old wayward behavior, that is what I see.



I would say that your marriage is in trouble because there is a lack of honesty, period. There is a facade here that needs to come down before this marriage will ever reach any depth.

When you act a part for too long, there comes a time when you just want to be yourself. That's when the house of cards just falls.


SB


Lucky to be where I am, in a safe place to get marriage-related support.
Recovered.
Happy.
Most recent D-day Fall 2005
Our new marriage began that day. Not easily, but it did happen.
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Originally Posted by schoolbus
When you act a part for too long, there comes a time when you just want to be yourself. That's when the house of cards just falls.

Can you explain this a little more? You think I'm acting a part, or my H is?

Last edited by hbd; 08/01/11 04:49 PM.

AKA: hurtagainbydavid, hurtingstill
Me: BW/WW 36
Him: WH 37 (2time2timer)
DD x 2: 8 and 5
H's 1st affair D-day: 10/2001
H's 2nd affair D-day: 1/16/11
My threesome w/H and OM: 7/21/11

Trying to fix the mess I helped make.
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Posts: 3,093
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I think you are. And that your revenge affair speaks to this. You carried out what you "wanted" to be a fantasy.

Turns out this was the fantasy of the role you played, and the guilt is telling you this. The guilt is not for the "affair". It is for the self-betrayal.


SB


Lucky to be where I am, in a safe place to get marriage-related support.
Recovered.
Happy.
Most recent D-day Fall 2005
Our new marriage began that day. Not easily, but it did happen.
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Originally Posted by schoolbus
I think you are. And that your revenge affair speaks to this. You carried out what you "wanted" to be a fantasy.

Turns out this was the fantasy of the role you played, and the guilt is telling you this. The guilt is not for the "affair". It is for the self-betrayal.


SB

I thought about your comments all night. It's an interesting concept (that I'm playing a part), but it's not true in my case. I have never been more honest with myself, my H, or the people on this message board for that matter.

If I was "playing a part" at all, it was before I found out about the A. Before the A, I never told my H about what SF I liked because I thought it would make him feel like he wasn't enough (as Indiegirl said it would make her or her H feel). As a result, I pretended to enjoy basic SF, which in turn caused me not to be interested in sex and I rarely climaxed. We then grew apart because SF is his #1 need.

Now that we are being O&H, we are having sex daily and it is good because I am being honest with my H and myself about what I like.

Also, revenge was a very small part of why the threesome happened. The threesome happened because of the following:

1. I had a fantasy of being with two men at once (80% of the cause).
2. I felt entitled to do it because of my H's affairs (10% of cause).
3. I wanted my H to see how desirable I am to other men (5% of cause).
4. I was curious to see if my H would get jealous or be hurt (4% of cause).
5. I was drunk (1% of cause).

I did feel guilty after, but I truly feel that was because I felt bad about committing adultery (a sin in the eyes of God) and I was worried about how it would affect our marriage.

Thanks for your comments though SB, they really made me think and examine myself and my situation. I appreciate you taking the time to offer your comments and answer my questions.

I told my H about the email I sent to Dr Harley and I showed him Dr. Harley's response. My H was very accepting of Dr. Harley's advice. We are putting EPs in place to make sure a threesome doesn't happen again.


AKA: hurtagainbydavid, hurtingstill
Me: BW/WW 36
Him: WH 37 (2time2timer)
DD x 2: 8 and 5
H's 1st affair D-day: 10/2001
H's 2nd affair D-day: 1/16/11
My threesome w/H and OM: 7/21/11

Trying to fix the mess I helped make.
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 3,093
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Self-betrayal: when you commit an act which goes against that which you know is the right thing to do, despite that inner warning to the self that you are doing the wrong thing; including therein the betrayal of the conscience as well as the betrayal of the option to do the right thing for ANOTHER person


you in fact betrayed yourself



The role you played in this cannot be denied. You stepped into the role of a fantasy


acted it out

in spite of inner warnings that this might lead to poor outcomes



you ignored those inner warnings


you now pay the price


guilt being one of them.




It is the same with any act that goes against what we believe is "right" deep within ourselves. What I am talking about is NOT "right" in the sense of society, but "right" in our most inner, own self. Somewhere within you, there was a betrayal.


Read "Leadership and Self-Deception: Getting out of the box" by The Arbinger Institute.


It can lead you to understand when you betray yourself, which leads you to betray others around you.

It would also be good for hubby.


Can help with those EPs - and explains what I am talking about.


You need insight into those moments when you initially make decisions, to understand exactly how you are losing those chances. Why you are counting beans, looking for "being even" with your man, when you cannot be "even". Why there is not a need to be "even"...

And why you don't need to look for it.

SB


Lucky to be where I am, in a safe place to get marriage-related support.
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Every wayward plays a part, hbd.

The affair is 'friendship' 'fun' 'fantasy' or they just being someone's KISA - or spicing things up.

They play let's pretend I'm not damaging my marriage or selling out my values. They pretend it is not about betraying something priceless just to get a few needs met.

The negative act has a positive mask slapped on it, so the wayward can enjoy the moment without feeling guilty

The guilt comes later, because those masks don't hold up long.

You have owned your guilty feelings now but the radical honesty has to come before the act. To become a former wayward, you have to say to yourself 'at what point - and how - did I allow myself to lie to myself about the true meaning here?'

That will help you avoid doing it again.


What would you do if you were not afraid?

"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.

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Quote
Agreed. Almost all of my friends are either cheating, being cheated on, or are in the process of getting a divorce as the result of an affair.
Bad company corrupts good morals.


Markos' Wife
FWW - EA
8 kids ...
What to do with an Angry Husband

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Originally Posted by schoolbus
Read "Leadership and Self-Deception: Getting out of the box" by The Arbinger Institute.


It can lead you to understand when you betray yourself, which leads you to betray others around you. SB

Will do SB! Thanks!

Now onto other issues...

H has to go to a regional meeting for work in a few months for 4 days. I've asked him not to go, but he says it's expected of him. I can't go because we can't afford it and we don't have anyone to watch the kids. How should I handle situations like this that go against our EPs, but we don't have a choice?


AKA: hurtagainbydavid, hurtingstill
Me: BW/WW 36
Him: WH 37 (2time2timer)
DD x 2: 8 and 5
H's 1st affair D-day: 10/2001
H's 2nd affair D-day: 1/16/11
My threesome w/H and OM: 7/21/11

Trying to fix the mess I helped make.
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 3,093
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The lies to the self actually HELP you betray yourself


and helped you betray your husband.


You told yourself that it was okay to have this affair because your husband was a part of it (hmmmm, it wasn't okay, tho, because otherwise, why would there be guilt?).

You told yourself that it was okay to have this affair because your husband had an affair, so things would be somewhat more "even" (it turns out this isn't the case tho, because somehow things really are not even, they are worse inside your heart).

You told yourself, and still do, that your husband is truly okay with the 3-some, but somehow he has jealous feelings (so how can both of these be true......the two feelings are in direct conflict).


When we begin to "justify" a behavior, we must look at the behavior itself. Behavior that appears to require a justification often is NOT something we ought to be doing. If we find ourselves looking for reasons why it is "okay" to go ahead and do something

red flag it

because there is likely a form of self-betrayal going on.


Read the book......I swear.....life-changer.


SB


Lucky to be where I am, in a safe place to get marriage-related support.
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Our new marriage began that day. Not easily, but it did happen.
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Markos' Wife
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What to do with an Angry Husband

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Originally Posted by hbd
[quote=schoolbus]
H has to go to a regional meeting for work in a few months for 4 days. I've asked him not to go, but he says it's expected of him. I can't go because we can't afford it and we don't have anyone to watch the kids. How should I handle situations like this that go against our EPs, but we don't have a choice?


Has he told his boss in no uncertain terms that he cannot go because he had an affair and it would mean the end of his marriage?

What would be the consequences of his not going? Fired? Or just disappointed boss?

I think the vets on here will tell you the loss of a job is nothing compared to the loss of a marriage.

Do you even believe him? While it is possible he is still in an actively wayward mindset you should only trust what you can verify independently.


What would you do if you were not afraid?

"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.

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