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H has to go to a regional meeting for work in a few months for 4 days. I've asked him not to go, but he says it's expected of him. I can't go because we can't afford it and we don't have anyone to watch the kids. How should I handle situations like this that go against our EPs, but we don't have a choice?

I've highlighted the problem in red. He says. It's not that he doesn't have a choice, but he will not stand up and say "No, I will not go without my wife."

He's not on board with this program.


Markos' Wife
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It's just expected for his position. People in his position don't just not go. This would be a first, so I don't know what the outcome would be.

I just lost my job though. We would be totally screwed if he lost his.

He has not told his boss about the A. I think he should though...or maybe I should?

Yes, I believe him. He forwarded the invite and itinerary. I would also ask for copies of tickets, receipts, etc. He already knows that.

The last time he had a business meeting was just after we started Marriage Builders. It went fine until he didn't answer his phone one evening. Then I freaked. It was the worst night since d-day.

Just the thought of him going to this thing triggers me and makes me feel bad. I'm trying to get him to find a way to let me go along. He said he would try. If I can't go along, do I tell his boss about the A or give my H an ultimatum? What do you think?

Last edited by hbd; 08/02/11 03:43 PM.

AKA: hurtagainbydavid, hurtingstill
Me: BW/WW 36
Him: WH 37 (2time2timer)
DD x 2: 8 and 5
H's 1st affair D-day: 10/2001
H's 2nd affair D-day: 1/16/11
My threesome w/H and OM: 7/21/11

Trying to fix the mess I helped make.
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Great work with getting the invite and itinerary etc...

His side of why he must go/you cant sounds very weak to be honest

'Im expected to' - or what?

'I'll try' - TRY????!!!

Tell him you expect to either go along or for him to refuse to go. Even if it means losing his job. Reiterate that his going will be a very bad trigger for you and it is unacceptable. That your recovery will be damaged.

Your h is supposed to be a repentant former wayward who would do anything to avoid triggering you or hurting your feelings again.

If he gets wishy washy and refuses to be pinned, I would see that as a big redflag
In that circumstance I would let him go but would secretly put a GPS in the car and get a PI to check him out while he's away too.


What would you do if you were not afraid?

"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.

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Originally Posted by Prisca
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H has to go to a regional meeting for work in a few months for 4 days. I've asked him not to go, but he says it's expected of him. I can't go because we can't afford it and we don't have anyone to watch the kids. How should I handle situations like this that go against our EPs, but we don't have a choice?

I've highlighted the problem in red. He says. It's not that he doesn't have a choice, but he will not stand up and say "No, I will not go without my wife."

He's not on board with this program.

I just got this email from my H: "Technically I don�t think you can go with, but maybe that�s what we�ll have to do."

What do you think? Is he on board? If not, what do I do now?


AKA: hurtagainbydavid, hurtingstill
Me: BW/WW 36
Him: WH 37 (2time2timer)
DD x 2: 8 and 5
H's 1st affair D-day: 10/2001
H's 2nd affair D-day: 1/16/11
My threesome w/H and OM: 7/21/11

Trying to fix the mess I helped make.
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Please keep in mind that the recent threesome has helped him erase quite a bit of guilt. (If SHE can do it etc..) The guilt helps keep him on track. I would not be ok with this trip at all.


What would you do if you were not afraid?

"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.

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I just lost my job though. We would be totally screwed if he lost his.
You'll be even more screwed if he won't protect your marriage.
He can get another job. He can't get another you.

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Just the thought of him going to this thing triggers me and makes me feel bad. I'm trying to get him to find a way to let me go along. He said he would try.

He'd better do more than try. He'd better DO.
This is non-negotiable.
You don't negotiate EPs.

I've traveled with my husband on business trips. You share a hotel room. You split meals. It doesn't cost that much more than him going alone.

You either both go, or both stay. If he insists on going alone, then he's not willing to protect your marriage and he's gone.


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Originally Posted by hbd
Originally Posted by Prisca
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H has to go to a regional meeting for work in a few months for 4 days. I've asked him not to go, but he says it's expected of him. I can't go because we can't afford it and we don't have anyone to watch the kids. How should I handle situations like this that go against our EPs, but we don't have a choice?

I've highlighted the problem in red. He says. It's not that he doesn't have a choice, but he will not stand up and say "No, I will not go without my wife."

He's not on board with this program.

I just got this email from my H: "Technically I don’t think you can go with, but maybe that’s what we’ll have to do."

What do you think? Is he on board? If not, what do I do now?


Maybe isnt good enough. He needs to declare hes going with you or not at all - to you and his boss.


What would you do if you were not afraid?

"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.

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Originally Posted by indiegirl
His side of why he must go/you cant sounds very weak to be honest

'Im expected to' - or what?

It's expected for his position. All managers go to the regional managers meeting. I work (or worked) at the same company, so I know how what's expected. People don't just "not go" unless there is a very good reason. My H would have to tell his boss and his boss's boss why he can't go and they would have to decide if the reason is good enough. That's why I'm thinking if they don't let him bring me along, he's going to have to tell them about his A.


AKA: hurtagainbydavid, hurtingstill
Me: BW/WW 36
Him: WH 37 (2time2timer)
DD x 2: 8 and 5
H's 1st affair D-day: 10/2001
H's 2nd affair D-day: 1/16/11
My threesome w/H and OM: 7/21/11

Trying to fix the mess I helped make.
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Originally Posted by Prisca
You either both go, or both stay. If he insists on going alone, then he's not willing to protect your marriage and he's gone.

Gulp. Ok, got it. I'll send him this via email and let you know. Fingers crossed.


AKA: hurtagainbydavid, hurtingstill
Me: BW/WW 36
Him: WH 37 (2time2timer)
DD x 2: 8 and 5
H's 1st affair D-day: 10/2001
H's 2nd affair D-day: 1/16/11
My threesome w/H and OM: 7/21/11

Trying to fix the mess I helped make.
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Be brave. You wont compromise your standards or your marriage.


What would you do if you were not afraid?

"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.

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Porn. Must. Go.

You are both exhibiting symptoms of extended and elevated use of hyper-stimulating erotica;


Quote
How can porn cause sexual performance trouble?

The cause appears to be physiological, not psychological, given that such diverse men change only one variable (porn use), yet report a similar recovery pattern. For these men, anxiety is secondary.

Recent behavioral addiction research suggests that the loss of libido and performance occur because heavy users are numbing their brain's normal response to pleasure. Years of overriding the natural limits of libido with intense stimulation desensitize the user's response to a neurochemical called dopamine.

Dopamine is behind motivation, "wanting" and all addictions. It drives the search for rewards. We get little spurts of it every time we bump into anything potentially rewarding, novel, surprising, or even anxiety-producing.

Animal models have established that both sexual desire and erections arise from dopamine signals. Normally, dopamine-producing nerve cells in the reward circuitry activate the sexual (libido) centers of the hypothalamus, which in turn activate the erection centers in the spinal cord, which send nerve impulses to the genitalia. A steady stream of nerve impulses, which release nitric oxide into the penis and its blood vessels, maintain an erection.

Nitric oxide in turn stimulates the blood vessel dilator cGMP, the on/off switch for engorgement and erection. The more cGMP is available the more durable the erection. So, the pathway from the brain to an erection is:


Don't let the focus on erection fool you, the physiology is not that different;

Quote
The relevance of recent addiction brain science

In the last decade or so, addiction researchers have discovered that too much dopamine stimulation has a paradoxical effect. The brain decreases its ability to respond to dopamine signals (desensitization). This occurs with all addictions, both chemical and natural. In some porn users, the response to dopamine is dropping so low that they can't achieve an erection without constant hits of dopamine via the Internet.

Erotic words, pictures and videos have been around a long while, but the Internet makes possible a never-ending stream of dopamine spikes. Today's users can force its release by watching porn in multiple windows, searching endlessly, fast-forwarding to the bits they find hottest, switching to live sex chat, viewing constant novelty, firing up their mirror neurons with video action and cam-2-cam, or escalating to extreme genres and anxiety-producing material. It's all free, easy to access, available within seconds, 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. Overstimulation of the reward circuitry in the brain is a very real possibility today.

Many men don't realize their brain's sensitivity is declining toward normal sex because Internet erotica delivers endless dopamine hits�making erection and climax possible where normal encounters would not. When they try to have actual intercourse and cannot, they understandably panic.

The brain changes causing porn-induced erectile dysfunction arise from actual physical addiction processes (among them, numbing of the pleasure response of the brain). Quitting can therefore be quite challenging. In addition to an alarming temporary drop in libido, some men experience withdrawal symptoms: insomnia, irritability, panic, despair, concentration problems, and even flu-like symptoms. Finding a good counselor who understands addiction, and why today's porn has different effects from viewing a Playboy magazine, can be very helpful.

The brain needs a chance to "reboot," that is, return to normal dopamine sensitivity. This can take a couple of months. For a science teacher's explanation of the science behind porn-related erectile dysfunction, see this video presentation: Erectile Dysfunction and Porn.

Most men are astonished to learn that pornography use can be a source of sexual performance problems. Instead, many are becoming convinced that ED at twenty-something is normal. They are amazed that heavy porn use can affect them adversely, that no one told them it could affect them, and that humans have actually masturbated without porn. There is almost total ignorance about the significance for porn users of the recent discoveries of addiction science.


I would quit side-stepping and dancing around the fact that you have both formed a habit that has become destructive to one of only 4 intimate emotional needs. A need that, when met, creates romantic love.



"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Niels Bohr

"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer

"Fair speech may hide a foul heart." - Samwise Gamgee LOTR
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I agree HHH, I think it desensitises women too, makes them unable to climax as easily if theyre used to being bombarded with fantasies/images and it become an excessive habit.

Its easy enough to go back to enjoying the simple things though! Which are really the best. In just the same way that a little black dress is better than head to toe whistles, bells ribons and colors.

Hbd has already agreed to cool it though and give each other more one on one focus...


What would you do if you were not afraid?

"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.

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Ok, here is the email I sent my H:

You remember watching that video about affairs on the computer? Dr. Harley said that in order for our marriage to recover, you needed to give me "just compensation." Part of "just compensation" was ending the affair and all contact with your affair partner. But, I was also supposed to establish "Extraordinary Precautions" that you would need to meet in order to compensate me for the pain caused and to make me feel safe staying with you. Although we discussed those precautions, I don't think I ever gave them to you in writing and you need a reminder, so here they are:

1. Protect me and my feelings above all else.
2. Absolutely no contact with your affair partner.
3. Make all phone, email, and texting information available to me.
4. No sharing personal information with females unless I am by your side.
5. No one-on-one meetings with anyone of the opposite sex.
6. No going out drinking with friends if females will be present.
7. No overnight stays away from me.
8. Use the policy of joint agreement (POJA) as a basis for all decisions.
9. Be open and honest with me at all times.
10. Commit to at least 15 hours of undivided attention with me to meet each other�s emotional needs every week
11. Anytime you think, �I don�t want you to know about��.�, call me immediately and tell me.
12. Continually work on our relationship with discussions and relationship books.
13. Avoid porn and self stimulation

These precautions are not negotiable as they are supposed to be compensation for the pain that has been caused by your affairs and to protect me from more pain.

As you can see, overnight stays without me would go against the precautions, so you cannot go on the trip without me. Either we both go, or both stay. In my opinion, if you go alone, then you are not willing to protect me. The "just compensation" needed to fix the damage of the affair would not be fulfilled and our marriage will not survive.

So are you on board with our marriage recovery program or not?

If so, you will need to do whatever is necessary to comply with the extraordinary precautions, including telling your boss about your affairs.

I love you. I hope you choose me and our marriage. Please print this and bring it home, so you have the list whenever you need it.

Last edited by hbd; 08/02/11 04:35 PM.

AKA: hurtagainbydavid, hurtingstill
Me: BW/WW 36
Him: WH 37 (2time2timer)
DD x 2: 8 and 5
H's 1st affair D-day: 10/2001
H's 2nd affair D-day: 1/16/11
My threesome w/H and OM: 7/21/11

Trying to fix the mess I helped make.
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Yes, we are going to cool it on the porn. Thanks for the info HHH.


AKA: hurtagainbydavid, hurtingstill
Me: BW/WW 36
Him: WH 37 (2time2timer)
DD x 2: 8 and 5
H's 1st affair D-day: 10/2001
H's 2nd affair D-day: 1/16/11
My threesome w/H and OM: 7/21/11

Trying to fix the mess I helped make.
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Good letter to hubby.


The book recommendation I made will help you see when the justifications begin, and point you in the right direction for shining a light on the behaviors of self-betrayals.


When I read this book, it really helped me understand a great deal about human behavior

mostly my own smile


Seriously, it is written so that you can really capture that moment when you begin down that wrong path. It stops you dead in your tracks - you actually SEE that snap-moment when that bad decision actually begins to be made.

And you can actually STOP yourself before you start.


I have been able to lose over 50 pounds using this book, and nothing more. It is NOT a weight-loss book.

I have been able to stop worrying. It is not a stop-worry book.


I have been able to improve my driving. It has nothing to do with driving whatsoever.


I still need to stop cussing......sheesh.


I have actually nearly stopped all DJs. I stopped blurting out what I "felt" I just "had to say".


Talk about an improvement in self-control. Because I can SEE that moment.

Now, if only I could get OTHER PEOPLE to see their own moments. smile



SB


Lucky to be where I am, in a safe place to get marriage-related support.
Recovered.
Happy.
Most recent D-day Fall 2005
Our new marriage began that day. Not easily, but it did happen.
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H still hasn't responded to my email. I called him at work to ask why and he says he's too busy right now. I said, "you can't take three minutes to read the email and commit either way?" He said, "well, I wanted to read it and think things through." I said "either you are in or out." He said "whatever."


AKA: hurtagainbydavid, hurtingstill
Me: BW/WW 36
Him: WH 37 (2time2timer)
DD x 2: 8 and 5
H's 1st affair D-day: 10/2001
H's 2nd affair D-day: 1/16/11
My threesome w/H and OM: 7/21/11

Trying to fix the mess I helped make.
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 209
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Now what?


AKA: hurtagainbydavid, hurtingstill
Me: BW/WW 36
Him: WH 37 (2time2timer)
DD x 2: 8 and 5
H's 1st affair D-day: 10/2001
H's 2nd affair D-day: 1/16/11
My threesome w/H and OM: 7/21/11

Trying to fix the mess I helped make.
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 209
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So H called me last night on his way home all pissed off that I was making demands and yelling at him while he was at work. He says they are so busy and everyone is working overtime and his wife is emailing and calling and making all kinds of demands. He says it was inconsiderate of me to try and discuss our relationship stuff while he was at work. He was a total ahole.

Then when he got home, he saw that I was crying and he immediately changed his tone. We talked all night about what we were going to do. He says he can see things from my perspective and he wants to comply with my EPs. He says he is going to talk to his boss today. He is going to tell him about the A and that he cannot go on the trip.

I asked him why he was so mad before and he said, "Let's say you are walking across the street concentrating on your phone or something and someone runs up to you and pushes you to the ground. At first, you get angry and yell at the person for pushing you. But, then you notice that there was a bus coming down the street that would have hit you if the person hadn't pushed you to the ground. So, you become grateful and thank them instead."

Anyway, I'm really nervous about what is going to happen today. My H could lose his job for having an affair in the workplace and for not being able to complete the duties his job requires.

By the end of the day, we could both be jobless and broke with two kids to support.





AKA: hurtagainbydavid, hurtingstill
Me: BW/WW 36
Him: WH 37 (2time2timer)
DD x 2: 8 and 5
H's 1st affair D-day: 10/2001
H's 2nd affair D-day: 1/16/11
My threesome w/H and OM: 7/21/11

Trying to fix the mess I helped make.
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Even if he "has" to go on this trip, there is no reason why you can't go, too. You are an adult woman and can go anywhere you want to go. The idea that the company says wives can't go is wrong; all it means is that the company won't PAY for a spouse to go.

Yes, you'll have to pay for your expenses, but since he will be in a hotel room, it shouldn't cost anything extra for you to stay in the same room. If he's driving, it shouldn't cost anything extra for you to ride with him. If he's flying, yes, you will have to pay for your ticket. Yes, you will have to pay for your meals. Yes, you will have to arrange care for your children. However, that will all be much cheaper than a divorce!

Since this event appears to be coming up in a few months, cut back on your expenses and start putting aside money for your share of the trip.

Since you're short on funds, you can amuse yourself while he's in business meetings. You can go sightseeing, take books with you to read, take knitting/crochet work with you, etc.

You and your H can enjoy each other during his down-time. If a company doesn't care if a man spends time with skanks during his down-time, then it darned sure shouldn't care if a man spends his downtime with his wife!


"Your actions are so loud that I can't hear a word you're saying!"

BW M 44 yrs to still-foggy but now-faithful WH. What/how I post=my biz. Report any perceived violations to the Mods.
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Originally Posted by hbd
Anyway, I'm really nervous about what is going to happen today. My H could lose his job for having an affair in the workplace and for not being able to complete the duties his job requires.

hbd, you probably addressed this earlier, but he doesn't still work with the OW, does he?


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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