I know this is very long but I can't ask you to give honest advice if you don't have the whole story.
I'm 44 married 18years. Daughter moved out in college for 5yrs and 12yr old son at home.
About 5-6 months into our relationship I knew he had a bad mouth and icky temper and was severly addicted to pot but ignored it all. My "caretaker" side took over to try to change him. Within a year I was trying hard to make him happy. I spent 15 years of my marriage wishing i'd not married him. He was very abusive. Name calling (you stupid f'ing bitc#, what the f were you thinking, your so f'ing stupid, you worthless piece of shi$, etc etc. He treated my daughter the same. She was approx 4 or so when we met.
As I got older I was so so tired and drained of walking on the infamous eggshells. I had tried nearly every "tactic" there was in the book. Begging him to go to counseling He somehow managed to end every single disagreement with me walking away feeling I had done something wrong.
About 3 years ago, I was done. I wasn't mad anymore, wasn't sad or anything. I didn't care and had become numb to him. I'd spent so much time wishing he would die. I told him I wanted out. He cried and sobbed and begged and pleaded. He said he'd go to anger management, would quit smoking pot and go to marriage counseling. I was thinking "great, now i can't leave cause this time he says he's willing to get help". I stayed.He did the counseling and quit smoking pot. And he did change so much.

The next 4-6 months were pretty good. He didn't curse me out anymore, no name calling and had started helping around the house a little. (taking the garbage out or mowing etc) I got caught up in this. Like a dry sponge soaking up water I soaked up this hope of being treated decent. It slowly started fading away. He's never gotten back to how he use to be but still snapping about things, getting upset easily and being mean to me and our son. And he blames us for making him angry.

I'm in therapy and have been for about 2 months. I'm also attending weekly CoDA meetings (codependents anonymous). I've been very codependent my whole life. I'm doing VERY well. I've learned to quit changing others and staying out of their business. learning to set boundaries and all. He knows I'm going he knows about the codependency and I've told him a hundred times I'm setting boundaries and I don't like the way he treats us. He will say I"m too sensitive or blame us such as if we hadn't of done something wrong he wouldn't get mad.

About 5 days ago I told him I was done again. I come right out and told him I've wanted out of this marriage my whole life. I don't think I've ever loved him. I don't love him now, don't like him and don't even like being around him. He was so upset. Saying I can't believe your going to tear up our family and break our son's heart because your so f'ing selfish! Well, the next day he's mr perfect again. Helping in the house, being nice and hasn't raised his voice once. When I asked him about why he was doing this he says he realizes he's mean and will stop. I think he needs therapy but he thinks he's aware of it and he can just stop.

I've already emotionally distanced myself. I don't think I could ever ever trust to open up to him emotionally. I'm much too damaged by him.
He changes upon the threat of loosing me than as soon as he feels comfortable in the relationship again he slowely transitions back to his old self again.

Do I stay knowing he'll eventually go back to the way he was then can tell him i'm out and leave without feeling so guilty? Do I leave and be the bad guy for leaving him after he changed and hurting our son telling him great you changed but it's too late? Do I stay and tell him I'm here but I'll never love you so don't ask me to? I don't know how many chances he thought he could have.

Leann, welcome to MArriage Builders. Just a friendly suggestion. If you want people to read your story, cut it back to about 3 to 4 paragraphs and cut out everything about your childhoods. It is not necessary to read this much information to get your story and most people don't have the time to read through so much information to get it. It really only takes 3 to 4 paragraphs to get the story across.

And lastly, if you are trying to save your marriage, I would post it in MB101 so folks can help you do that.

tried to shorten thanks alot. I don't want advise to save my marriage. I think i wanna know if others have been through this or get some 2 cents from outsiders.

thx again!

Thanks so much, Leann!! That is much better and I GET it.

The reason your H did not change and stay changed in the past is because there was no plan. So it was doomed to failure. You could fall back in love with him and replace those feelings with the loathing you currently have. It can be done. We have had couples who hated each other transform their marriages. And it doesn't take a long time either. It just takes adherence to this plan.

There are some really good videos at this link where Dr Harley talks about creating romantic love in marriage: here

Leann, I am a RVAC, and the things your husband does are text book signs of a verbal abuser and controller. **edit** I will be praying for you....

Please keep us posted.

will do (had to go look to see what your abbreviations stood for lol)


And also, one of the biggest things now is that I've totally checked out again mentally and don't thik i could ever open up to him emotionally.

He continuously year after year drove me away with verbal assaults then blame my emotional distance for his behavior which was basically kicking me when I was already down.

I have not felt "love" for him during our entire marriage. Only with him 8 months before marrying I was totally infactuated with a man paying me such attention that liked me I soaked it up like a dry sponge and jumped right in. And within months wanted out. People talk about getting your love back or rekindling your marriage and etc. What if you have never had to get back?

How are you to work on something you want nothing to do with?

thx for the responses :-)

Leann, you are right to move on unless your husband makes dramatic changes. People can and do change and love can be restored, but it would take a 180 degree radical turn on the part of your husband.

And a wife who doesn't give up on her vows if she sees him doing it.

How many times have we seen a guy or gal who gets it, only to be abandoned by a spouse who is unwilling to accept that they now get it?

It takes both, not just one to make it work.

It would be a shame for her to miss out, if (and that's a big if) he now gets it and the changes are indeed real.

A controlled separation with mentors or someone to hold each of you accountable to the ultimate goal of restoring romantic love, would be better than just throwing in the towel.

But folks are often unable to see the future because they keep looking at the past...

I can agree but disagree in my situation.

I wonder how many chances he felt he should get? And what about the constant discussions and pleads from me to him asking him to stop. Trying to get him to see how he was hurting us. Please quit calling us names, don't call your son stupid, don't call me the b word. Please don't get angry for an accident. Asked him to consider a therapist but no...i was the problem. Bought reading material - wouldn't read it because I was the problem. I'm too sensitive and a selfish B. Week after week, month after month and year after year. Only to be snapped at each time saying I'm selfish, too sensitive or just being a bi$ch.

DOES THAT NOT DEMONSTRATE COMMITMENT ON MY PART?

Hundreds of times over the years he's pushed me away by being mean and hateful towards us, then turns around and blames my lack of emotions towards him on his behavior. That's kicking me when I'm already down. No one is to blame for his behavior when he gets upset other than himself.

There is so much damage done at this point I'll never feel emotionally safe with him again. And I also have no way of knowing if this is yet another one of his hundreds of "honeymoon" stages in this cycle. I'm changed/changing when threatened with the possibility of loosing you then as soon as I feel comfortable in the relationship again start treating you badly. And lets not forget there has NEVER been any romantic love, closeness or sense of my best friend in this marriage. He's come out and said affection and all that romance crap is for guys that are whimps. Our sex life has never been anything but porn type. No "love making". He's never held me, nor have we ever had a romantic kiss. He says he doesn't like getting someone else's spit in his mouth.

He also gauges his progress solely by my appreciation of him. I don't think that demonstrates "real" change. It's not like I'm going to turn to him and say "your so wonderful for not being mean to me".

I think you can attempt to fix something that's broken. But much much harder to try to fix something that never worked to begin with.

As far as it "being a shame to miss out" He has nothing to offer that I want. I know that sounds harse but I don't feel guilty.

Only you can answer that.
Actually no. It demonstrates you stood there and took it. Maybe it was commitment. Maybe it was you didn't know better. All it demonstrates is that you stayed so far. It says nothing about your motivations or commitment.
No argument from me on this
This is your choice. If he does make the changes, and you accept them, you could feel safe with him.

You BOTH have choices. He can choose to make changes or not. You can choose to accept them or reject them.

But as long as you've already rejected them, it becomes a self-fulfilling prophesy.
A very real possibility. Like I said, the choice is entirely yours. It's not an easy decision to make. Perhaps having someone who is trained and not emotionally invested in the outcome would oversee the situation.

A professional could probably look at his behavior and progress and see if he's on the cycle you've described, or if he really gets it.

If he's willing to be coached or mentored by such a professional, then perhaps it's real. Otherwise, I'd probably discount current events as well.
So why did you marry him? If you wanted these things, and there was NEVER any romantic love, then you sent him a very mixed message. You married him knowing there was NEVER any romantic love. Did you expect he would just start providing it because you were now married?

That's the emotional equivalent of the guy marrying the grossly overweight woman and being disappointed when she's not a Victoria's Secret model 25 years later. Both are unrealistic expectations.

So if what you are saying is true and there really has NEVER been any romance, that's the man you vowed to love, honor, cherish etc, and it's really about as fair to complain about that as it is for the disappointed husband to complain his wife never became the VS fashion model.
But it sure tells him if he's on the right track or not. You do realize that men, on average, have a higher need for admiration. So if he's making changes and you are not cheering him on, he's unlikely to continue on the path. Not because he doesn't love you. It's because he doesn't BELIEVE you.

If you say something is important to you, and he does it, if you don't cheer, then you are sending the message that it really wasn't important. So he listened, acted, then watched for your action. If your actions don't match your words, he'll adjust his response based on actions.

Men are action oriented. So if you don't cheer (an action) then either you didn't mean the words he heard you say, or he doesn't understand what you really mean.

So as long as you don't cheer the behaviors you want to see, it's unlikely you'll continue to see those behaviors.

Again, this is a self-defeating strategy. If you don't cheer him on, but act suspicious, you pretty much guarantee he will not continue. Because you are telling him with your actions you don't want him to continue.
Why not. Sounds like a pretty good thing to say. Why not say, "I really appreciate the efforts you are making to avoid being mean to me."

Sounds like you have a great opportunity to meet some of his needs and send the clear message that he's engaged in the sorts of behaviors you want from a husband.

How is NOT cheering him on going? The cycle, right. So why not break the cycle and cheer him on. You don't have to trust him to cheer him.
If you are talking about your husband, that's pretty disrespectful. It's down right mean. So do you have two standards? It's OK for you to say mean things about him, but it's wrong for him to say mean things about you?

I really don't see how that sort of thinking does you, your husband or your marriage any good. It's mean, destructive and disrespectful.

Given the last couple of paragraphs, it's likely he won't be missing out either. Apparently you are just as able to display the very characteristics you complained about in your husband. Again, another mixed message. You say it's wrong to be mean, to belittle, etc, but then your actions tell a different story.

Now you can't say he made you say mean things about him. Why not? Because that gives him the same cover you just used. If you suggest it's his fault you say mean things about him, then you have to accept what you said was unacceptable, which is him blaming you for how he feels.

So which standard will you apply? You have to apply the same standard to both yourself and your husband. I suggest you apply the standard you wish to hold him to, the one where it's unacceptable for him to blame you for how he feels, and say it's unacceptable for you to blame him for how you feel.

The choice is yours. From what I've read here, you each have work to do. You'll have the same work to do on yourself if it's with this husband, or another man down the road. Since you each own your behavior, you can't blame your current behavior on him. You'll just take it to the next relationship.

So why not use this relationship, the one you don't currently value, to work on your side of the street. If you mess up, what do you have to lose? A husband you don't really value? What if you get it right? Well you'll make a great wife for him or if he doesn't step up his game, you'll be a great catch for the next relationship.

But you've not arrived. You are as much a work in progress as is the husband about whom you complain.

When someone is abusive they usually don't change. It's part of their character. No amount of "meeting needs" or "admiration" will change them. Only an abuser admitting to being abusive and wanting to actually change their personality and that is extremely rare. Almost nil. That would mean taking responsibility for their actions and abusers do not take accountability for their own actions; everything is someone else's fault, they do not feel empathy or remorse and their "changes" are just an act to get what they want then they change back to their true selves. Enlightened, read up on abusers. The advice and comments you provided might be applied to certain types of dysfunctional or bad marriages, but not abusive ones. There is never a reason to stay with an abuser or make anyone feel guilty for not meeting the abuser's needs. It just makes everything worse.

That being said, you should divorce this jerk. I seriously doubt if the changes are real. Abusers are masters of manipulation and pretty good actors/actresses. You should have left the minute the abuse appeared. Now here you are years later and you've subjected your daughter to a childhood of this as well. So she has seen that this is the way men treat women and how she should expect men to treat her. That was a bad decision. And it doesn't matter how much you've explained it to her that this is not how men treat women; this is what she SAW! Everyday. Read the book "Men Who Hate Women and The Women Who Love Them." It will be an eye-opener for you and just maybe you will learn to choose better and not repeat the same mistake when you meet someone else.

Raquel

I'll say this:
If you had a close friend or even a family member that treated you like crap all the time. How long would you take it before you finally left the relationship? How many times would you ask them to get counseling. To stop hurting you? I disowned my family when i was younger because I felt they were not healthy for me. (drugs, abuse, etc).

Just because we have a piece of paper that ties us together does not mean I'm not fair in saying "no more". It's not even about how many chances I give him to change. He's hurt me so many times I have noting left in me to even want to try. Saying I'm in the wrong for not giving us a chance and us both changing is horse pooh pooh. I've bent over backwards year after year crying and pleading for him to start being nice to us. Each time for him to blow me away with nasty words like how I'm lucky he doesn't screw around or I'm too sensitive and F'ing selfish.

Is it not possible that he's done so much damage that I can't and don't wanna love him?

Your dog wants to please you. Each time it comes around you your hitting it for something it's doing. It licked you so you smacked it. It knocked something over so you kicked it. Each time you call it it still comes, maybe with it's head ducked but still comes. After all, he's a loyal dog. But...one day that dog ain't gonna keep coming. One day it will finally learn that being around you means being hurt. It's trusted you too many times.

I'm just saying that if anyone else in your life did this to you you'd probably cut off the relationship. After all, who lets friends or family memeber curse at them and treat them badly just because you have a relationship. Just because we're married doesn't mean I'm suppose to keep this cycle up forever. I've jumped off the merry go round and I'll be damned if I get back on it again.

You've heard the phrase burn me once shame on you, burn me twice shame on me. He's burned me well over a hundred times, and I'm in the wrong for not allowing # 101?

Leann, Dr Harley always recommends SEPARATING from an abusive spouse. I agree with his advice. People can change, but that doesn't mean you have to make yourself available to be abused. Check this out: When to Call it Quits, Part 2

MelodyLane: I read the article and liked 100% of it. The patterns Dr. Harley describes in abusive relationship fits it to a T. And so have books I've read **edit**.

I don't know if you'll understand this, but, that "seperation" is why I'm still here. I've mentioned it quite a few times to him in the past and it's just not gonna fly. He becomes very very upset. Both anger and hurt. When asked why he wouldn't consider a temp seperation he flat right out said "because i know if i let you go you'll never come back". He gets in a state of mind where it's like he's lost control of himself. Yelling, cursing, crying telling me I can't believe your going to just rip our family apart and hurt your son like that. Your own selfishness is more important to you than your family. This "guilt" he plants in me that I accept keeps me here.

I'm still in therapy and going to my weekly CoDA meetings. (codependentcy anonymous) I'm learning how to be more selfish to be honest. I'm learning how to set boundaries and feel confident enough to enforce those boundaries. In case anyone isn't real familiar with this it's very hard to overcome. Your always putting others wants and needs ahead of your own.

But either way, something happened about an hr ago. I'd just gotten out of the shower and I heard my son ask him "are we going to work on my track today?" (they're making a track in the yard for his remote car (one of them $500 cars that hauls butt). My husband says (very angrily: "Dude! Ask me that shi# again and we won't be doing anything!" I said "whoah, whats that about, can we just say either to quit asking or consider giving him an answer without allowing it to upset us?"

He shook his head, sighed, and got up while saying "jesus christ! you just can't f'ing win around here". As he was getting up our dog licked his hand. (she's a very affectionate dog and he HATES dogs and their spit lol) He says "god dam&it Sadie! stomps his foot at her and then says "you stupid piece of shi#!".
I said "hey hey, come on, she's a dog she was just kissing you in her mind. It will wash off easily please don't get that upset over something so petty"
He says: "your just not happy unless you have something to bitc# about are you!?"
I said: "my problem is that our son was just 10ft away from you and learning how to act when we get upset about something. I don't know why I'm even wasting my time addressing this. It's obviously never gonna stop"

That was the end of it. About 30min later he acts happy and like nothing every happened. We've done this at LEAST 4 times a week. I just don't think it's going to be a permanent change. It's like he's trying until he feels justified in being upset. He can't see it as it's ok to be upset but not okay to react that way.

anyhow, it's the actual "leaving" part that I guess I'm avoiding. Whether it's permanent or not it won't be a very pretty sight. And I don't know that I have the strength yet mentally to handle it.

Leann, this is where the problem is. You don't need his permission to separate. You just separate. Figure it out, make plans and then just do it. It is up TO YOU to separate, not him. You can't use his resistance as an excuse to not do what is right. You need to make a decision to do it and just do it. Feelings FOLLOW actions, so you can't wait for a feeling to attack you against your will that will magically propel you to separate, you have to DECIDE and then take appropriate action.

After a while you become a volunteer, not a victim of his abusive behavior, and you have long passed that point.

So separate and tell him to get professional help. Sounds like he might need it.

Sticking around is not going to make your marriage, him or you any better.

Frankly, I'd tell him that it's not your leaving that's going to "make" him lose you, it's behavior like he displayed today. Then leave until he is indeed better, as specified by a professional you trust, or he divorces you.

No one is saying to just put up with bad behavior. But I am saying don't become what you hate about him. If you do the same things you have to stop it too. You cannot blame your responses on his behavior. If you treat him with meanness, then knock it off.

To justify any like responses gives him cover for his behavior.

You are not a dog, you are a human. So you can decide how you want to respond when you are kicked. Just as he can decide how he responds to things that annoy him, you too are responsible for how you respond.

So how are you going to respond?

Well, I can honestly say that I've rarely ever raised my voice in our home. I'm not a yeller. I have but rarely. I've never called him names, never cursed him out. I remember pulling over on the side of the road once and telling him to get out. I was yelling at that time. He'd just told me that if i left him he'd tell his parents and everyone else we knew what I'd done in the past. How he's changed and I still just kicked him to the curb. I said something like "WHAT makes you feel you have the RIGHT to treat me like cra#?!! Who in the he11 do you think you are!!??" I was really upset and acted totally out of line but like i said it's not often. He knows his parents are like my own. They are the only family I have and have been mom and dad to me for 18yrs. His mom would understand as she use to be married to an alcoholic but his dad would disown me. he's a grouchy old fart lol.

What I've been doing wrong is this codependent self. Trying to fix him. Trying to get him to see how he is and change. Year after year. I get involved in everyone else's problems also. As if I'm responsible for how everyone else feels. I've gotten much better since I've been in therapy. I really like this gal. She's the first one that I've been to that's helped me progress rather than spending all our sessions talking about my past and why this why that.


Now, am i perfect? Heck no! I can be an airhead sometimes have a horrible short term memory. I clutter. My home isn't nasty but it's always cluttered - like my brain :-)

I think what I'm hoping to accomplish is the self esteem I need to move on by staying in therapy and my CoDA meetings. I'm learning to accept compliments that I've always dismissed and argued with. I'm getting to where I no longer hate my body (I'm 44 and only weigh about 104lbs so have been too skinny all my life) Now I look at me and say...ya know how many women in their mid 40's WISH they could eat whatever they want. It's all stuff I'm working on. I think that once I get stronger emotionally that it will be easier to walk out not letting him change my mind with guilt which is what always happens.

Untill this morning I was 95% sure he won't change and can't without going to get help. I wouldn't have been able to recognize and work on me without a therapist or some kind of help. But there was 5% of me that said "what if". "what if he REALLY does this time. I could get comfortable with being around him and then eventually start caring and liking him and then even fall in love. I'ts POSSIBLE" (course this is always what keeps me here - that 5%). Then when he acted up at my son and about the dog that 5% hope went down to 0.

He's gone right now. Took our son to get stuff for the track he'd asked about. He does this mean stuff then does a 180 and act like nothing has happened. Maybe I AM too sensitive. He says that all married couples fight like this. I've never been in a relationship any different so I don't know. I know you can't trust what you see on tv. But I have friends at work and some of my son's friends parents and I see them acting like they're friends. I see the man get upset and just say he's upset or mentions it. I don't see them yelling, cursing etc. He says it's because no one does that with people around but behind closed doors it's the way it is. If that's the case I guess I'd rather just be alone.

I think his view of women come fromhis mom subscribing to penthouse for him at age 13! She says she figured he may as well learn what it's all about. I bout died when I heard that! And when you look at how his dad talks to his mom it's just way out of line. BUT, his mother is a very passive woman. When he yells at her she'll excuse it and say "he's just upset because xxx. He loves me". She says she's learned to just let it roll off her shoulders. I'm not her. I can't do that. Dad barks at the world. We were at walmart and the person in front was saying something to the cashier and he got very impatient and yells "It's a dam# good thing I don't have ice cream!!" I was sooooo imbarressed. But either way those two act just alike except his father doen'st curse with the really bad words like the f word or b word.

Sorry for rambling. I think i have my answer as far as the "what if" this time around. I'm convinced he can't fix that alone and he has no intention on "airing my dirty laundry out with a stranger". So I just need to work on any of my faults, be open to any faults and gain the self esteem, courage, and strength to leave.

And I really appreciate your opinions. Hearing different point of views is helpful sometimes. You don't have to always agree with all views and opinions, sometimes you can pick out what applies to you and disregard what isn't applicable but always nice to hear different opinions and try to listn with an open mind.

Well, I've found an apartment up close to my work that I want to move to. Nice yet affordable. Will be a big change from living in a spacious nice home on a few acres but still excited. I've decided to wait until after a beach trip we have planned for our son within a month. I don't want to mess that up for my son.

I've also decided to do this while he's at work. I know it's probably very wrong but only I know him well enough to know it will be a very very nasty scene to tell him and begin acting on it. He will at no point "let me go". And whether I do it behind his back or in front of him I know that he will point the finger at me to family and everyone we know and basically say �I want to save our marriage but SHE doesn�t!� Because I�ve checked out emotionally and have no desire to put myself back in it. But I didn't check out to hurt him, I checked out to keep myself from getting hurt anymore. Years ago I put up a wall. I said, "This man (who is supposed to love and protect me) isn't going to hurt me anymore".....and here I am years later still here wanting out. It's like the bullet left the gun a long time ago but my finger is still on the trigger afraid to pull it.

This bears repeating:

Really sucks that they gotta wait till our heart and mind are totally checked out of the marriage. I didn't start making arrangements to leave after he suddenly "saw the light". I started preparing myself quite some time ago. It's not like he "got it" THEN I said i'm outta here. Guess the old saying "you don't know what you got till it's gone" is true in this scenerio.

He pushed me out year after year while I stayed committed to trying. Then when I have no strength left to fight it I cave and mentally check out. Not to hurt him but to protect myself. Then he says "wait, i won't treat you like crap anymore". I hardly call that abandoning him. Unless you've lived with someone for many years who calls you an F'ing B nearly every day of the week there's no way anyone would expect you to "get it" either.

And your absolutely right. It takes BOTH. You can't wait till your garden is dried up and dead to decide your going to give it water it needs and work on it. Each day you saw it wilting was an opportunity to save it. And that doesn't make me a bad person. Even god won't wait. After the rapture you won't be able to say "ok ok I get it now!" then accuse god of abandoning you cause you "get it". Things don't work that way.