But, yes...
On topic (as long as I have dabbled here at all)

Yes, Jill - I believe so.
(To answer your very first post)

I hope you are well

bp..Sure, I see the negative impacts of religion. I think everyone can. I don't see the positive, I believe they are a false belief.

sufdb...What are the negative and positives of gravity?

I think the difficulty you have bp is thinking of religion as a choice, or something you decide to do. It is not, it is no different than observing and understanding gravity, or the electromagnetic spectrum, or nuclear forces etc. What you (or I) believe is irrelevant to the truth, we expereince the consequences of getting the truths of our existence right.....or wrong.

You know, people use to think the world was flat, and they lived their lives accordingly, and resisted those who said otherwise, even killing them perhaps....but none of that changed the truth, or the consequences visited on those who got it right, or wrong....and so it goes bp, until we know everything. The physical facts we can observe of our universe are compelling, the greatest proof of living in a created universe is physics itself, that is all you need to "prove" God exists.

btw bp, all this "philosophy" (as you say, to me it is just observational science...but whatever) aside, how does bp order his life, how do you make decisions?

re·li·gion n.
1.
a. Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.
b. A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.
2. The life or condition of a person in a religious order.
3. A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader.
A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.


Exactly how is that NOT a choice?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by MyBestFriend'sWife:
<strong> re·li·gion n.
1.
a. Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.
b. A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.
2. The life or condition of a person in a religious order.
3. A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader.
A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.


Exactly how is that NOT a choice? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Semantics can play havoc in such discussions. I suppose we can say "religion" itself is a kind of choice (given the smorgasboard of choices). I am guilty of interchangeing words like religion, creation, God in my discussions, so let me clarify.

IMO there are but 2 issues relevant to decideing how one orders their life.

1. Is our universe a created one by design, or a chance permutation of unknown (but of undirected...not purposeful) origen.

2. Given the answer to #1, what do we do next. If we decide "science" says we are created, than the next question is what is the nature of the creator and what does that mean to us.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Issachar:
<strong>And I haven't even mentioned the modern archaeological research that has upheld the Gospel accounts on formerly contested points. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The thing about archeological evidence is there is always interpretation. Say for example, I created a story of a Jesus figure who died in the plane crash in Lockerbie.

2000 years from now, if there is some interuption to the continuity of written history, say an archaeologist discovers evidence of the crash. People who believe in my religion would say that this proves their faith.

What has archaeology proven about the Bible? We know that most, if not all of the cities are actual places. So what? What else do we know?

Wow, some good responses to my question. Next time someone spouts off that this is a christian site they can be sent to this thread. I am honestly really surprised at the amount of posters who question religion as I do. I do not believe that I am a athiest I am more a agnostic. I believe in a higher power, I just do not believe in organized religion. I want to thank everyone for their responses. This was a very interesting discussion.


Anna- I'm doing great! Got married last fall and couldn't be happier. Kids are doing well. I'm enjoying be a young Grandma. Funny how life can change in 4 years.

Jill

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Next time someone spouts off that this is a christian site they can be sent to this thread.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have never seen a single person "spout off" that this is a Christian site. Either you have seen this or it's just a sort of "thorn" to you (I'm guessing the second is correct). You kinda make it sound like you've heard it soooo much that you are just exasperated. I know there are Christians here who share their beliefs, but I've never seen one say "this is a Christian site."

However, maybe it'd be important for the nonChristian population here to keep in mind that Dr. Harley is a professed Christian whose books are sold in Christian bookstores; thus, there are Christians who come here thinking this is a Christian site. With enough time and interaction with others, they will quickly see this is the case. Some leave and some chose to stay and since Dr. Harley allows it, they talk about their faith (to the frustration of many nonbelievers).

This site has always clearly been dominated by nonbelievers in my opinion... it is clear to see it both in the advice they give and the philosophies they hold... a disbelief in God and Jesus as Christ. However, I see alot more Chrisitians on the other areas of the MB board and a whole slew of them in the "Prayer Request" forum (thanks to Dr. Harley for making a prayer request area... I suppose this is a reflection of his own faith in Christ). Like I mentioned before, I think it's due to brokeness. Often when people are broken, they turn to Christ as they realize that alone, they mess up their lives! They see their need for God. Obviously, just a hypotheses that I've come up with as I've noticed the differences between the areas of the board.

My guess is that this site will always contain a Christian population, esp. if Christian bookstores continue to carry Dr. Harley's books. And some might even think it's a Christian site since they know that Harley is also a Christian. Why berate them for thinking such a thing? Trust me, spend enough time here and they will soon see it's not a Christian site. It is not hard at all to see it.

<small>[ March 24, 2004, 07:50 PM: Message edited by: LoveMyEx ]</small>

You're right, LoveMyEx, it's not a Christian site or an Atheist site or an Agnostic site. It's a Marriage Builders Website !
So, now that we've established that all are welcome here, can we please get back to the original intent of this site????

LMX- You are totally wrong. I have seen it stated numerous times that this is a christian site, quite recently in fact. I will say that when I see alot of preaching going on it makes me question if this is the right place to be anymore and I have posted here since 1999. It just really turns me off when posters start quoting scripture. I think points can be made without bringing the bible into it.

As a definite ex-christian...Let me be the first to say, and probably I speak for most others here, christian and not, Harley's books are great!

I think perhaps they should be required reading before marriage...LOL. Maybe in high school.

How do I make my decisions? I've been told that I analyze everything...LOL.

I think I judge what is best, best for my kids, best for others, best for me. I put my kids first, and I do what I think is best for them. That is why it was so difficult for me to divorce, becuase it is unclear if it was best. But it appears like perhaps it is...but it wasn't my choice.

Not sure what you mean sufbd. I don't understand exactly what you are asking. I think you are saying, if god doesn't exist, why do we live? What is our purpose?

Yeah, I think you basically mentioned it, life is a byproduct of nature. I don't see any reason "to be" so to speak. I don't think we are entertainment for the almighty, or companions.

Is that what you are asking?

I think the parables of the bible, and most other good "moral" parables, have great litle stories to teach. I don't question the need for people to have a sense of morality, society would be purely a disaster without some sense of rules.

But surely there is no need to "believe" we were created for a purpose, or by a creator, in order to live life, be happy, and enjoy it.

I personally enjoy teaching others. I get a great reward when I see those moments of understanding. It's a great rush for me.

I don't feel like I am "inspired" by a creator to teach...I do it becuase I enjoy it. Does it benefit me? Nope, notreally. I'd probably "gain" more if I plundered, murdered, and stole. But that doesn't interest me, nor would I enjoy that.

So, is that what you are asking? What "guides" me through life?

My curiosity is really what guides me...I have a great job...I get to do what interests me...and learn about which I want to. It's a blast.

I like the thought that someday I will find someone that I can also share these things with. Together perhaps we can learn, explore, and experience things in life that we both enjoy.

Do you think you live for a purpose of pleasing the creator? If so, why have you not dropped all your life to follow jesus, like mother theresa? If you truely believe you live for jesus, to spend eternity with him someday, why haven't you done it totally? Completely? And without any reserve?

Maybe you have...I don't know. LOL A pedaled power PC from the banks of the Amazon...were you work with the natives, to save their souls. (Sorry, couldn't resist)

Is that what you are asking?

Another question for you sufdb...for clarification. You said physics is the proof of god, I think. That is what you meant, right?

May I ask how so? May I ask why you think god is in any way proved, displayed, shown, represented, authenticated, etc through physics?

Physics stands alone...it describes how the world works. It allows things to be understood, predicted, etc.

Why do you think there's any "need" for jesus in physics? How much have you studied physics, so that you really understand, and see how it all stands on itself, consistent, and descriptive of the world around us?

Ah, you did answer my question, BP.

You know I believe in a Creator of some sort. But, for the life of me, I have no idea why he/she/it bothered to create us! LOL.

How can an all powerful, etc. God, such as the Judeo-Christian Bible presumes, be lonely? Lonely enough to create humans?

And how many angel can dance on the head of a pin?

Oh, boy. I need to go to sleep now. NOW. I'm getting sloppy in my thought process. Even by a liberal arts standard.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Slapnuts:
<strong>The stories of Jesus were not written by people who had first hand knowledge of him. It is commonly known that Matthew, Mark, Luke and John were not written for something like 70 years after Jesus life.

So while he may or may not have been a historical figure, accounts of his life are historically unreliable because all accounts of him are from secondary sources. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Slapnuts, I'm not sure if you just made a mistake here or if you've gotten carried away with your argument, but Matthew and John were not secondary sources. Both were eyewitnesses and firsthand sources.

Beyond that, society routinely accepts secondary sources as reliable accounts of many things. Many biographies and certainly unauthorized biographies are written by interviewing people who knew the subject. My local newspaper is filled with stories from the AP. And how many of our history books are written by people who were present at the events chronicled?

Applying your standard for accepting written accounts, I can't believe half of what's in my newspaper or any of my kids' history books, BUT I should believe the New Testament books of Matthew and John!

Quote by jillybean:
You are totally wrong. I have seen it stated numerous times that this is a christian site, quite recently in fact. I will say that when I see alot of preaching going on it makes me question if this is the right place to be anymore and I have posted here since 1999. It just really turns me off when posters start quoting scripture. I think points can be made without bringing the bible into it.


Now my take:
So jillybean am I to understand that, as a christian, I should keep that and the book I believer in to myself? Yet you and others, who are atheist, agnostic or whatever, are allowed to tell me or anyone else that the bible is a bunch of crap (my personal interpretation of what others have said)?

You have witnessed many people get berated by christians? Well, I can say that I have witnessed many christians be berated by non-christians. I agree that both happen on occasion, but do you think that maybe we "see" things the way we do because you tend to notice more when people you have a lot in common with are put down and don't notice when it's the other way around? Just food for thought. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

In conclusion, I think everyone has the right to say what they want on this board as long as they are respectful. And before you say anything, I think taht lack of respect has gone both ways at times by different people. It doesn't take long for anyone here to figure out who is and isn't a christian, atheist, agnostic, humanist, or whatever. If those people bother you or me then we can very effectively avoid them or ask them not to address us. And we don't have to address them. And we shouldn't address them, even by inference, if we have asked them not to address us.

I'm precious

<small>[ March 24, 2004, 09:32 PM: Message edited by: i'm precious ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by LoveMyEx:
<strong> I have never seen a single person "spout off" that this is a Christian site. Either you have seen this or it's just a sort of "thorn" to you (I'm guessing the second is correct). You kinda make it sound like you've heard it soooo much that you are just exasperated. I've never seen one say "this is a Christian site."
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have seen it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Dilbert:
<strong>Applying your standard for accepting written accounts, I can't believe half of what's in my newspaper or any of my kids' history books, BUT I should believe the New Testament books of Matthew and John! </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You should question what people write in newspapers or history books. Especially newspapers.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Dilbert:
<strong>Matthew and John were not secondary sources. Both were eyewitnesses and firsthand sources.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I stand corrected. Matthew and John were Jesus disciples.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Slapnuts:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by LoveMyEx:
<strong> I have never seen a single person "spout off" that this is a Christian site. Either you have seen this or it's just a sort of "thorn" to you (I'm guessing the second is correct). You kinda make it sound like you've heard it soooo much that you are just exasperated. I've never seen one say "this is a Christian site."
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have seen it. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I've seen it too. It's an easy assumption. Dr. Harley is a Christian. His books are carried by Christian bookstores. And that logo at the top of every page... I've heard the Christian marital relationship described as a triangle in which the husband and wife become closer to each other as they become closer to God, so the two arrows (H & W) pointing toward the apex (God) is like an ichthus to any Christian who's heard the analogy.

Even if it were an explicitly Christian web site, this forum, as stated in the much quoted but frequently overlooked terms of service, is "open to all." Christians who accept the terms should be prepared to practice as much or more tolerance in this forum as they do in real life.

<small>[ March 24, 2004, 10:11 PM: Message edited by: Dilbert ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Dilbert:
<strong> And that logo at the top of every page... I've heard the Christian marital relationship described as a triangle in which the husband and wife become closer to each other as they become closer to God, so the two arrows (H & W) pointing toward the apex (God) is like an ichthus to any Christian who's heard the analogy.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I could see that, but I've never thought of it that way. I've thought of that logo meaning moving forward together, not upwards, so to speak.