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Originally Posted by ME !!!
Your character has been formed internally.

What is the good news here?

Originally Posted by ME again !
Your character is not born of some recent external force, such as your job.

What is the good news here?

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Pep's point is the same as mine.

You are using your job as an excuse. It "works" right now (pardon the pun), because you think you can point to it as the "reason" for your behavior.

It doesn't explain why you lied when you were 14, does it?

Or when you were 18, 21, 23,,,,,,,,,,etc.


You said yourself, you have lied all of your life.

Lying is a way of life for you.

Because

the truth is something you do not see as a full and complete entity unto itself.


The truth.

It exists in, and of, itself.


You. Cannot. Change. It.


No matter what you say. No matter what you do. It is.

What you CAN change - is your approach to life.


Oh, and by the way, the simple fact is that you would probably succeed and make lots more money, be more productive, and be much more valuable to your employer

if you were honest, trustworthy, and had integrity.


And your clients would FLOCK to your door.


It's too bad you fail to see this.



SB


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I have re-read SB's posts, and I am really thankful for the advice. I have not only read Dr. Harley's radical honesty stuff but also the book "Radical Honesty" (by Blanton). This has always been very important to my husband, and I've often paid it lip service but never when it would really affect me.

Tomorrow night I might see old friends whom I haven't seen in ages, and whom I generally get into the "go with the flow" mode. I am going to be honest with them, both about why I haven't seen them in ages (because of relationship issues with my husband, as well as conflicting commitments) and about my opinions about things.

I feel like I will be a lot calmer telling the truth - yes, there will be moments when things are more filled with conflict, but over all, more calm. And calm is really important to me.

Even today though I found myself thinking of ways to scheme! I thought I might have lost something of my husband's and was thinking of ways to replace it without him noticing. NOT a good idea, and I didn't do it, but it says a lot for how much I need to change that I even thought of it.

We went to see our marriage counselor today who agreed very much that I need to change, and that I need to want to change. She suggested not inpatient work but intensive outpatient therapy, group therapy, and possibly personal development seminars (my husband is skeptical on the last one, so we will see since he's in charge of the finances).

I feel like if I am honest it doesn't change that I screwed up something, but we get past it faster. I am going to have a LOT of hard work to do here, but it's time to get started. Tomorrow I have an appointment for an assessment at a psych facility, so I will have to see how that goes.

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What you are doing is trying to fit yours into every situation. Life doesn't work that way. You cannot possibly make it so that everyone will like you. It will never happen. Because they figure out your lie. They end up not liking you because they never got to know "you". What you showed them instead was a moving target - something pliable, something fake. You gave them

What I will do with these old friends is try - quite possibly for the first time - to be a person and not a persona. I usually find myself just babbling with them because I feel such a need to get the "persona" out there. It will be liberating to just be myself (even if we wind up in a political argument!)

And I actually like the idea of *not* being unique - of just being one of many people. It's relaxing somehow - less pressure? Maybe that's just me deluding myself.


Thanks for everything and keep the tough love coming. We should get the books in a few days and I am looking forward to reading them.


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Pepper - I am not my own God. The whole reason I am here is because I realize that, and am changing my ways. I *know* that honesty is important. I am here to change and to live my life with complete honesty.

And you are right, there is no way for you to know what I do for a living. However, it is literally one where there is very often one side that wins, and another side that loses.

SB, to get back to something, for many years I have covered up things thinking that my husband owed me for all kinds of petty things. He didn't then, because marriage isn't really about that, and he surely owes me less than nothing right now considering how I have treated him and how I continue to.

One thing I tend to have trouble with in general is that when people ask me a reason for doing something, I will give it, and then get told "that's an excuse." To me, an excuse means that I don't think I should be held responsible for it, but a reason explains why I did something. I know that the only person responsible for my lies is me - they are coming out of my mouth, after all. There's not a *good* reason for doing what I have done and still do. There's no justification.

Thanks for all the feedback - I need to hear the things that I don't want to hear!

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HTC,SB,Pep,SW, and others,

This is absolutly an astounding thread, my brain hurts..

HTC, be yourself, that is what is missing.

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CP - well, certainly didn't mean to make your brain hurt.

Today I went for an assessment for an intensive outpatient psych program. I don't fit the criteria for inpatient treatment (which I am honestly happy about) but I do for the IOP. DH is upset that I haven't gotten more done on this - I only made the one appointment. He's right - I can do a lot more and I didn't want to because a) I was hoping he would change his mind and b) this is really awkward and c) I am really scared that I will lose my job because of the time commitment for this. Hopefully I'm being honest here. We met with our counselor last night who suggested group therapy, which this would be (9-12 hours/week).

I could feel myself trying to manipulate the assessor! One of my big worries with doing this program is that I think it would be really easy to manipulate it - but, then again, I won't do that if I really want to change. I will take it seriously and do the work.

As it turns out I'm not going to be able to see the old friends tonight - so I won't have that opportunity to work on this, but I am going out with DH and very good friends. Again - another place to be honest.

CP - I am trying to be myself but I feel like I have spent so much time lying that I don't really know who that is anymore! I am going to find that out through this process.

I still feel like it would just be so much easier to stop doing this, but it's not BETTER. I am realizing that for so much of my life I have just done what I "wanted" not what I needed to do or even what I should be. I think I've been lucky that what I've "wanted" most of the time hasn't been things that created major problems - but now it has, which I guess is just a matter of time. If you're constantly putting yourself first, then eventually things will go wrong (probably sooner rather than later).

Ugh, just found out that this would cost $2,500.00+ to do because of my insurance. I think that it's time to ask for Christmas gifts from Mom & the rest of the family ahead of time... Well, I think it needs to be done. The next scary thing is going to be telling work.

Question: what about keeping things private? In other words, if I'm going to be totally honest and myself, does that mean that I *have* to tell people about things if I'm not asked?

That's a dumb question, but probably shows how little I'm used to being honest with people.

Now I need to be honest and tell DH how much this is going to cost, and how I will pay for it.

Just for today I didn't lie about anything (yet). And that won't change.

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I told DH how much it would cost, and his words were "we'll talk about it." Previously he had said "you'd better figure out how to pay for this on your own." I hope he appreciated the honesty - to be honest, I hope he does. It wasn't easy to tell him that (how sad is that? honesty really is hard for me to get used to.).

So that is where we are for today. Thanks for all your words.

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Well, that would probably have been one of my shorter posts on this site, so you wouldn't have been talking about me anyways..

See how I manipulated you into wanting to explain and comfort me with that statement?

Sometimes, it is better to think about what you are saying, or going to say, and how it will effect everyone around you, and the person you are saying it too.

Sometimes, silence speaks volumes also.

Just an Idea, but maybe you can work on keeping your opinions and outlooks to yourself, instead of being a people pleaser, and wanting to be all things to all people?

I am reminded of Abe Lincolns statement..

"You can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you can never fool all of the people all of the time"

Also some wisdom from Samuel Clemens, "If you don't lie you never have to remember anything.."

What I meant by being yourself, is not being afraid to be wrong, out of touch, the fool, before others, and that thier opinion of you, is short sighted in the big scheme of things. Whatever judgements they can lay on you, are an extension of thier own insecurites, and thier own foggy perceptions, that they have developed.

And no you are not smarter than them, don't deserve more, as a matter of fact, getting things through manipulation, is not a gift at all, and can become that house of cards, that falls down, when the truth is revealed.

don't be afraid to be human, weak, and not know the answers, and study to be quiet, with your ears and eyes open, and your mouth shut sometimes, and make you words be few, and mean what you say.

Do you feel compelled to have all the answers? To have an opinion on every subject? To control the outcome of every conversation? Or situation that you find yourself in?

This is a by-product of fear, that you will lose control and become a victim, and you probably over compensate. The book about self-deception Sb suggested probably addresses that in a healthy way. (I want to read it myself).

Yes I can understand why you don't know who you are, so you find it hard to be yourself. But I can tell you that if you have been telling lies, and changing camps of thoughts to appease others, your problem is with fear of rejection, and the feeling that you are all alone, so lieing to protect yourself, and stealing money, is not far behind.

You are making your own self-fufilling prophecy, and the compulsion to lie and control will make you alone.

Praying for the best for you, and I hope that this therapy, allthough it will probably be painful and scary, will bring you to the other side. That we are all in this life together, and we do better with the truth.

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Originally Posted by hopestochange
Pepper - I am not my own God. The whole reason I am here is because I realize that, and am changing my ways. I *know* that honesty is important. I am here to change and to live my life with complete honesty.

Since you are not your own God, do you believe in some 'higher source' of wisdom or righteousness? From what source do you draw your values? For example, if you are a Christian, you might respond: "From the Bible", or "From the 10 Commandments".

Things I am coaxing you to think about:

1. Do you think the concept of RIGHT and WRONG are relative to each situation?
Are you a "there is no black and white, only shades of grey" kind of woman when it comes to right and wrong?

2. I am assuming you would like to think of yourself as a good woman/person. Not an immoral person who fails to adhere to moral standards. Right?
If you want to think of yourself as a moral woman, have you ever defined (for yourself) what those standards are? (see 'higher source' comment above)

3. You said that you "know honesty is important", what you did not say is that you know honesty is a moral value that will help you determine right from wrong. Do you ever think that your habitual lying,deceit, dishonesty are morally wrong?
If you do, WHY are those behaviors morally wrong?

4. Do you know the difference between what is true (factual accuracy) and what is honest (free of deceit) ? Can you walk away peacefully after being deliberately factually inaccurate with someone? Can you walk away peacefully when you deliberately deceive someone? I think the answer is "yes", you can, and you have.
The way you do this is to totally deny the humanity of others. You have buried your empathy (if empathy was ever in you) so effectively that your conscious has been entombed.

5. People in your life are not pawns on your chessboard. Especially those with whom you are the most intimate. When you use your intimate friends, family, husband as pawns to 'win' some game, you lose intimacy. You are choosing to self isolate and segregate yourself. No one really knows who you are. Because you let no one in.

You lose. At life. At relationships.
You think you are "winning" (Charlie Sheen comes to mind) but you are suffering from thousands of self inflicted wounds.
You are not a winner after all.
You need to break down and cry.
You need to be humble.
You need to grieve for what you have voluntarily sacrificed in this sick game you have been playing.



Quote
And you are right, there is no way for you to know what I do for a living. However, it is literally one where there is very often one side that wins, and another side that loses.

Are you an attorney? A trial lawyer?
Let the jokes loose now. grin

Maybe you're a professional poker player? LOL

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I am impressed with the quality of advice appearing on this thread.

But, and there is not always a but � just this one at this moment in time � something important is being overlooked here.

What are you doing about this?

�I have pushed my marriage of 12 years to the brink by hiding the massive ($100k+) credit card and tax debts that I ran up over two years...�

After all, there are tangibles and then there are TANGIBLES.


�I am really scared that I will lose my job because of the time commitment for this..�

You ought to be scared you are going to lose your house.

Liar or no, this much debt makes you vulnerable to, well, blackmail in the kind of job you imply you have. If you worked where I work you would be let go immediately for having this much unsecured debt. You would lose all your clearances and be escorted off the property. You would not even be allowed to clean out your office.

What does your H think about being responsible for this much debt? It could affect his job too. Does he have to lie with you to hide this much debt?

eta: I don�t know which came first for you, but there is a strong connection between profligacy of any type and habitual lying. And the profligacy tends to come first in most cases.

Last edited by Aphelion; 10/12/11 01:22 PM.

"Never forget that your pain means nothing to a WS." ~Mulan

"An ethical man knows it is wrong to cheat on his wife. A moral man will not actually do it." ~ Ducky

WS: They are who they are.

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Quick answers before I go pick DH up from the train: The debt, thanks to him, is under control. It's down to a manageable level and we can meet our monthly expenses. We actually are in better shape now than we have ever been because DH is in control of it. And the taxes are taken care of as well. So we got lucky on that. We didn't even miss a payment.

Pepper - I need more time than the 10 minutes I have to really answer your question.

Quote
Do you feel compelled to have all the answers? To have an opinion on every subject? To control the outcome of every conversation? Or situation that you find yourself in?

This is a by-product of fear, that you will lose control and become a victim, and you probably over compensate. The book about self-deception Sb suggested probably addresses that in a healthy way. (I want to read it myself).

CV - spot on! Not an excuse for how I've acted but I think that's at the root of it. I think that if I talk LESS I will be much better off. The less I open my mouth, the fewer lies I will tell.

Quote
You need to break down and cry.
I do this often - not everyday, but quite often. I absolutely do think that this is morally wrong. If I didn't, I would probably have kept it up and wondered what the big deal was. As for walking away peacefully - I have never walked away peacefully as much as I've walked away relieved that they didn't figure out what was really going on, feeling like I'd dodged a bullet, and immediately rationalizing to myself why what I had said was either technicallly accurate (self-delusion) or justifiable (ego).

More later - thanks again for all the great thoughts. This is a really great community.

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HTC,

We are talking about some very deep concepts here. These are ideas that I discuss with colleagues, and we use them in our work. I want to tell you that Pep has hit on some very important ideas as well, which you need to include in your musings, because they are also definitely in the mix when we are talking about the entirety of your issue.

The book I recommended regarding self-deception will hit home for you. It has a follow-up, called "The Anatomy of Peace". You may find that book a simpler read, but it will describe some ideas of categories of issues that sort of define behaviors. You might see where you fit, which "box" you are inside of.

Pep's point about looking inside of yourself and understanding where your moral base resides should not be overlooked, or glossed over. This links directly to my point regarding your concept of "what is truth?". These ideas are quite important because they form the underlying foundation of how you view the most critical aspects of your own place in the world with regard to responsibility toward others.

If you have a foundation and understand of your own moral base, if you have a definition of what is "right" and what is "wrong", and where these spring from, and you can state what your understanding of what the truth is, then you can go forward from there.

You can state what YOU expect from others, because you should be able to see what YOU owe as a human responsibility TO others.

Which brings me to a point: In your "Liar's World", your approach would be that your own personal needs exceed those of anyone else. You have NO responsibility to any other human; other humans have to place their needs BELOW your needs, and in all hierarchies, your needs are listed FIRST. All means are acceptable to meet your needs, including lying and deceiving - regardless of the true nature of the need, no matter how large or small.

In the REAL world, every person has needs, and those needs would be considered equal. In some circumstances, there are critical needs (for example, emergency medical needs, starvation, caring for an infant) which would be considered by those present as immediate and recognized as "higher in importance" by anyone present; any human would bow to those needs and drop their own without hesitation. But for day to day negotiation purposes, we consider that we all have needs, we share those needs with one another, and we work in honest give-and-take communications to meet the needs of each other in mutually positive ways!

We do this because it is much easier NOT to run the red light, run over each other in the grocery store, wait our turn at the restaurant, or help each other on the job.

In our marriages, we do this because - it pleases us, our spouses, our families, and IT WORKS.

Recognizing the human needs of one another, of perfect strangers, is a natural part of everyday life.

Except that when people place their own needs ABOVE those of everyone else, bad things happen. These people are, for lack of a better word

criminals.

They are the liars, the scammers, the thieves, the adulterers, the car jackers, the shoplifters, etc.


They do not believe that their needs are equal. THEIR NEEDS are more important.


I want you to consider this. Are your needs more important than mine?

I vote...No.

Your husband votes....No.


This is the "justification" thing - you justify (excuse) why you can run over others' needs.

Why you are "technically" correct.

And why it is okay to do it.

While the whole time, you know it is NOT.


Inside, you have a moral issue with it, yet you cannot figure out what line you crossed.

I hope this helps.


SB


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Originally Posted by Pepperband
Quote
And you are right, there is no way for you to know what I do for a living. However, it is literally one where there is very often one side that wins, and another side that loses.

Are you an attorney? A trial lawyer?
Let the jokes loose now. grin

Maybe you're a professional poker player? LOL

There is a very sick and twisted world out there in the intelligence community as well. The key is they hire only the most ethical, trustyworthy (full lifestyle polygraph), and moral only to move through life as

liars
cheaters
deceivers
bait/switchers!

Are you a spy?

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I put myself first tonight over a stupid lie. DH wrung me out for it, calmly and thoroughly. I thought that I knew what was important; my typical egotistical behavior. I thought it wasn't that important of an issue (why I had bought a certain brand of bacon). It's amazing how deep my self-deception runs.

Right now I feel like I could tell my boss this and just let the chips fall where they may. I feel that disgusted with myself - or perhaps I'm just upset that I got caught. I'm really good at that second feeling.

SB - I just finished the first few pages of the Self-Deception book and I see myself in it. Tonight I plan to finish it, re-read this thread and really think about it, and clean up the house so that it is perfect for DH's best friend who is coming over tomorrow. I would RATHER just curl up in a ball, read Harry Potter, and go to sleep. That's what I *want*.

I also wanted to be crystal clear about something here: I got found out about the money two years ago, but for the past two years - even AFTER I got caught - I continued to lie to my husband about things. I lied about what I was feeling. I told him one thing and wrote others in a journal to my then-therapist. I lied about how much I wanted to change. I said what he wanted to hear, or what I thought he wanted to hear, about our relationship instead of what I was really feeling. That set us back and may have permanently destroyed us, depending on what happens now.

The pathetic thing is that DH told me this morning, for the first time in 1.5 years, that he loved me. ANd you know what, I just said deep down "well, then you ARE SPECIAL!"

I used to think that I was humble at one point in my life - but looking back I realize that what I was was self-pitying. I wanted attention because I was just so stressed, so alone, so much low self-esteem. I thought that made me special. Nope, that just made me ordinary, even common.

Keep the tough love coming. I am clearly not getting the message yet.

And to answer the question, spy no, trial lawyer yes.

To be honest when reading about putting yourself first in SB's thread my first gut reaction was "doesn't everyone put themselves first?" Which clearly shows just how wrapped up in myself I really am.

Back to work, then to reading.

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Originally Posted by itistoughlove
Are you a spy?

rotflmao

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That�s good then about the debt resolution.

But I am left with curiosity as to what else is going on here.

What does the big run-up in debt have to do with anything? Acquisitiveness? Hoarding stuff? Is it OCD?


Spy vs Spy


"Never forget that your pain means nothing to a WS." ~Mulan

"An ethical man knows it is wrong to cheat on his wife. A moral man will not actually do it." ~ Ducky

WS: They are who they are.

When an eel lunges out
And it bites off your snout
Thats a moray ~DS
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The run-up in debt has to do with acquisition of things to fill a need of some sort:

The belief that "things" show:

power
control
superiority over others (I have more things, better things, lots of things)
financial ability (I have financial ability, therefore I can have what I want)

Acquisition of things can mean many different things. It can be an outward show to others that a person "has" something. It can also be an attempt to gain attention via "having" - for example, "I have a new ______; isn't this cool?" This gets people to look, admire, and attend to the acquirer. Admiration need is met.

Another possible reason to acquire goods is to fill a sense of emptiness. Some people acquire things due to a sense of emptiness or loss, or because they are not connected to people - so they try to feel a connectedness, finding that through connection with objects/acquisitions. This lasts temporarily, though, only about as long as the purchase, getting it home, and when the "new" wears off. Once the admiring of it is over, they are seeking something else.

I have seen people buy things that don't even make any sense whatsoever, like a diabetic buying baked goods from television shopping channels. They cannot even eat them!



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HTC,

Glad you are reading the book. I knew it would hit home for you.

I think attorneys have difficulty with lies because they purposely avoid the truth all day long. They avoid it because they are in the business of making the truth go away - because they want the truth to be

whatever works for their client.


Yet you know that the truth exists, don't you?



The bacon lie - it was not needed. Yet you lied, because you have allowed the truth to become a phantom.

You have decided that you are now the supreme controller of all things

even the truth

and you will decide for everyone.


What stress this must cause for you.


I wonder, how far will you fall, when you face a situation where you cannot control anything?

Where lies cannot help you? Where lies cannot save you? And where the truth is so cold and hard, no manipulation could possibly change it?

What would you do?


This will come to you, and you will not be able to face it. It will be as hard as a granite slab, and very cold against your heart.

To be unable to deal with even the slightest truth - the bacon truth - how will you face the biggest truth?

You are near that point in your life, today.

Today, you are at a crossroads. Somehow, you have been led to face this within yourself. For me, I believe that these things happen for a reason.

Perhaps you are being offered this opportunity to understand and change because you are to face the mountain soon.

This may be the small climb, HTC.


SB


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Holy Moly !

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Perhaps you are being offered this opportunity to understand and change because you are to face the mountain soon.

This may be the small climb, HTC.

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Maybe. Could also be gambling,

When a hole in one�s psyche is the real problem the lies are just a tool. And they can become like a power tool out of control.

My wife became Liar during her VLTA. She became so good at it she started lying about everything. Nothing was believable. She lied as a normal matter of course. Big things. Little things. Inconsequential things. Anythings. She lied when the truth would serve her better.

She did it for so long she became what she was doing.

Both her adultery and her covering the adultery turned her.

So, look around you. What do you see?

If what you were doing and what you were covering up has turned you this may indeed be your one chance to turn back.


"Never forget that your pain means nothing to a WS." ~Mulan

"An ethical man knows it is wrong to cheat on his wife. A moral man will not actually do it." ~ Ducky

WS: They are who they are.

When an eel lunges out
And it bites off your snout
Thats a moray ~DS
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