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markos #2641796 07/03/12 12:16 PM
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Originally Posted by markos
Originally Posted by Penni4Thoughts
Originally Posted by Prisca
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If something ever happens, I'll know.
Texting is "something."


So far, she texts when she is trying to make plans with us for a double date so that doesn't sound like an EA to me but given his past EA, I don't want them to text at all. I really don't enjoy this couple much anyway, the guy and my H have some things in common but the girl and I have nothing in common.

Why would he arrange double dates with someone you don't even want to be with?

crazy

Who has time for double dates when you want to recover your marriage??? crazy


Because he likes them and thinks I should, too. Also, because he thinks we don't have enough friends so spending time with ones I don't care much for is better than not spending time with friends in his mind.

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Originally Posted by Penni4Thoughts
Originally Posted by Prisca
Markos tells me that he's heard Dr. Harley says if you want to have a romantic relationship with a woman, become somebody she texts with.


Yep, I agree, that's why I want it to stop now.

How are you going to draw the line?

Right now, he's going to do whatever he wants because he knows he can.


Markos' Wife
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What to do with an Angry Husband

SusieQ #2641798 07/03/12 12:17 PM
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Originally Posted by SusieQ
Originally Posted by Penni4Thoughts
Another example is that a 22 year old girlfriend of one of his friend's at work has been texting my H. I requested that when she texts, my H texts his friend instead. Recently she texted and told my H that she got tickets to a show for all of us and I asked my H to text her boyfriend (his friend) about it instead. He said that was a ridiculous request, she is his friend and he will do whatever he wants. So, I said, if you aren't going to consider my request then I will call her and tell her not to text you anymore. That made him really mad because it would be embarrassing for him (and admiration is his number 1 EN) and he AOed me out of it. I struggled with that because he wasn't following the POJA, so why should I?

We have had this conversation already. Your H is a wayward. EPs aren't negotiated or subject to POJA. You turn this into a discussion about POJA to make excuses for your H.

Your H has already engaged in EAs and here he is still acting inapprorpiately with other women while gaslighting you into believing you are the one with a problem.

This is very hard to watch!

Penni, please listen to Susie and to Prisca. Susie is right; this is hard to watch.

You should not be enthusiastic about even negotiating a modification to Extraordinary Precautions. Therefore, by the POJA, negotiation should not even occur on this subject.

And no baloney about how scared he is to POJA because of SDs and DJs. There don't need to be any DJs for him to STOP PUSHING THE BOUNDARIES and KNOCK OFF THIS CRAP THAT IS HURTFUL AND OFFENSIVE TO YOU.


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8.
Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010

If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
markos #2641799 07/03/12 12:19 PM
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Your marriage COULD be easily repaired, IF he were to put some work into it.

But he's not interested in that, is he Penni?


Markos' Wife
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What to do with an Angry Husband

markos #2641800 07/03/12 12:19 PM
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Any time someone posts in MB101 and tries to skirt over the fact that there was an A that was swept under the rug it concerns me that there is denial going on.

Talking on MB101 about your lovebusters & POJA for the last 1.5+ years when your WH won't even implement basic EPs?

Telling us that you wish we could hear your H's perspective on POJA etc when he is texting with other women and basically gaslights you when you ask him to stop?

Penni, you are in denial here!


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Originally Posted by Penni4Thoughts
Originally Posted by markos
Originally Posted by Penni4Thoughts
Originally Posted by Prisca
Texting is "something."


So far, she texts when she is trying to make plans with us for a double date so that doesn't sound like an EA to me but given his past EA, I don't want them to text at all. I really don't enjoy this couple much anyway, the guy and my H have some things in common but the girl and I have nothing in common.

Why would he arrange double dates with someone you don't even want to be with?

crazy

Who has time for double dates when you want to recover your marriage??? crazy


Because he likes them and thinks I should, too. Also, because he thinks we don't have enough friends so spending time with ones I don't care much for is better than not spending time with friends in his mind.

But you should not capitulate and do things you are not enthusiastic about.

Dr. Harley says you shouldn't have outside recreational activities until you are following the policy of undivided attention and are each other's favorite recreational companion. Neither of these is true yet, so you simply say "I'm not going on these double dates."

Then follow up with the "listen, buster" quote from Dr. Harley that Prisca posted. smile


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8.
Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010

If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
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Originally Posted by Penni4Thoughts
I wish my H would post on here because I am afraid that I paint a negative picture of him and that if you heard his perspective, you'd give us more balanced advice. My history of SDs and DJs make him afraid of POJA.

He is not afraid to POJA, and he does not need to post here for us to understand.

He is unwilling to follow the policy of joint agreement because he does not care about you and does not want to have to take your feelings into account. It's as simple as that.

The policy of joint agreement is not some arbitrary rule Dr. Harley made up. It's what caring husbands and wives do for each other. When Dr. Harley studied successful, caring marriages where romantic love was sustained, he found that this was the way they lived.

The Policy of Joint Agreement is simply a reminder or formula to help us be caring and thoughtful even when our instincts and emotions are prompting us to do otherwise. We can develop the habit of checking our actions against the POJA to find out if we are being thoughtful for not. "Caring" and "thoughtful" actions follow the POJA, and actions that do not meet the policy are thoughtless and uncaring.

No matter what he could say if he posted here, the fact remains that if he wants to care about you, this is how to do it: KNOCK IT OFF. He may wish things were different, he may wish it didn't require as much of him, but this is what "care" means.


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8.
Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010

If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
Prisca #2641805 07/03/12 12:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Prisca
Your marriage COULD be easily repaired, IF he were to put some work into it.

But he's not interested in that, is he Penni?


He wants things to improve but he seems to frame the problems as 100% my fault. Basically, if I could stop being upset about things he does, everything would be fine. When we talked to Steve Harley, Steve said to him, "The only way I can think of for that to happen is for your wife to love you less, is that what you want?" That really hit home with my H in the moment but since then I have tried to bring that up and he gas lights me.

Sometimes I think his difficulty in admitting he is part of the problem is linked to his extreme need for admiration (is that a DJ?). He really doesn't like to look bad or admit faults.

It's hard to try to convince your husband that he is at least half of the problem without DJing the heck out of him. If I could get him to do the online program or talk to Steve, it would be a lot easier.

As part of plan A, I am trying to lose some weight and get back in shape. I have gained about 10 pounds since we got married and he doesn't seem to be as attracted to me (but our sex life is still good). I think physical attractiveness is probably his 2nd highest EN.

Prisca #2641807 07/03/12 12:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Prisca
Originally Posted by Dr. Harley
I would look him right in the eye and say to him, "Listen Buster, do you love me? Do you care at all about how I feel? If you do, you sure have a funny way of showing it! I love you and want to spend the rest of my life with you. But it sure will be unpleasant for both of us if you keep treating me this way. You are not doing things that I admire, you're doing things that I find disgusting!"

If he says, "Fine, then lets just get a divorce and end it all."

To that I would say, "It's up to you. I married you for life, but if you want a divorce, it's your call. If you want to be in a love relationship with me, however, you're going to have to treat me much better than you have been treating me. From this moment on you will never again bring up my affair, and if you are upset with me, you will have to treat me with respect until we can solve the problem. I will agree to do the same with you. If you are upset with our sexual relationship, I want us to discuss it as adults and solve it with mutual respect. I refuse to be treated like this, even by the man I love."


This is good, thanks Prisca!

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Originally Posted by Penni4Thoughts
Originally Posted by Prisca
Your marriage COULD be easily repaired, IF he were to put some work into it.

But he's not interested in that, is he Penni?


He wants things to improve but he seems to frame the problems as 100% my fault. Basically, if I could stop being upset about things he does, everything would be fine.

Penni, this is extremely typical for husbands. Most husbands mistakenly think the problem is that their wife should just feel different.

The insight of Marriage Builders is that husbands and wives cause each other's feelings. If he wants you to feel different, he shouldn't just tell you to do so, he should change what he is doing.

He's not willing to do that, so you'll never feel any better.

Even after 2 1/2 years of marriage builders, I still frequently fall into thinking "My wife should feel different, the problem is she is seeing this wrong, etc."


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8.
Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010

If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
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Originally Posted by Penni4Thoughts
Originally Posted by Prisca
Your marriage COULD be easily repaired, IF he were to put some work into it.

But he's not interested in that, is he Penni?


He wants things to improve but he seems to frame the problems as 100% my fault.

Then he's not really interested in putting any effort into making your marriage work.


Markos' Wife
FWW - EA
8 kids ...
What to do with an Angry Husband

SusieQ #2641810 07/03/12 12:34 PM
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Originally Posted by SusieQ
Any time someone posts in MB101 and tries to skirt over the fact that there was an A that was swept under the rug it concerns me that there is denial going on.

Talking on MB101 about your lovebusters & POJA for the last 1.5+ years when your WH won't even implement basic EPs?

Telling us that you wish we could hear your H's perspective on POJA etc when he is texting with other women and basically gaslights you when you ask him to stop?

Penni, you are in denial here!


I'm not in denial, I see that there is a big problem but I also feel this heavy weight to exhaust myself trying to fix it before considering divorce.

Also, he meets my top ENs well so that makes it more difficult for me to throw my hands up and leave.

Prisca #2641811 07/03/12 12:36 PM
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Even after 2 1/2 years of marriage builders, I still frequently fall into thinking "My wife should feel different, the problem is she is seeing this wrong, etc."
The difference, Markos, is that you're willing to change your thinking. You're willing to protect your marriage.


Markos' Wife
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What to do with an Angry Husband

markos #2641812 07/03/12 12:37 PM
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Originally Posted by markos
Originally Posted by Penni4Thoughts
I wish my H would post on here because I am afraid that I paint a negative picture of him and that if you heard his perspective, you'd give us more balanced advice. My history of SDs and DJs make him afraid of POJA.

He is not afraid to POJA, and he does not need to post here for us to understand.

He is unwilling to follow the policy of joint agreement because he does not care about you and does not want to have to take your feelings into account. It's as simple as that.

The policy of joint agreement is not some arbitrary rule Dr. Harley made up. It's what caring husbands and wives do for each other. When Dr. Harley studied successful, caring marriages where romantic love was sustained, he found that this was the way they lived.

The Policy of Joint Agreement is simply a reminder or formula to help us be caring and thoughtful even when our instincts and emotions are prompting us to do otherwise. We can develop the habit of checking our actions against the POJA to find out if we are being thoughtful for not. "Caring" and "thoughtful" actions follow the POJA, and actions that do not meet the policy are thoughtless and uncaring.

No matter what he could say if he posted here, the fact remains that if he wants to care about you, this is how to do it: KNOCK IT OFF. He may wish things were different, he may wish it didn't require as much of him, but this is what "care" means.

No amount of practicing Marriage Builders principles on your end will win your husband over to practicing these principles. Dr. Harley encourages husbands to push and push for this but says that wives have little success doing so. They can't take a "Love Dare" style approach where they win their husbands over and the husbands suddenly miraculously become willing to follow the principles of care.

So he encourages wives to try for 3-4 weeks and then to separate for their own health and sanity, instead of being gaslit and abused for years. Women who stick around for that kind of thing suffer all kinds of problems including compromised immune systems and post traumatic stress disorder.


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8.
Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010

If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
Prisca #2641813 07/03/12 12:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Prisca
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Even after 2 1/2 years of marriage builders, I still frequently fall into thinking "My wife should feel different, the problem is she is seeing this wrong, etc."
The difference, Markos, is that you're willing to change your thinking. You're willing to protect your marriage.

And when I don't, my wife lays it on the line and says "Listen, Buster, if you love me and want me to love you, this behavior is not going to work."


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8.
Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010

If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
Prisca #2641814 07/03/12 12:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Prisca
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Even after 2 1/2 years of marriage builders, I still frequently fall into thinking "My wife should feel different, the problem is she is seeing this wrong, etc."
The difference, Markos, is that you're willing to change your thinking. You're willing to protect your marriage.


I think that's it - if I could just get him to see this, things would start getting better.

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Originally Posted by Penni4Thoughts
I'm not in denial, I see that there is a big problem but I also feel this heavy weight to exhaust myself trying to fix it before considering divorce.
It's been 1.5+ years. Dr. Harley advises 3-4 weeks.



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What to do with an Angry Husband

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From Page 1 of this thread (emphasis mine):

Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Penni, the POJA is for marriages in recovery. Yours is not. Besides, you just said your husband doesnt accept POJA. Telling this woman will not harm your marriage at all. It might make your husband mad but that is not harmful to your marriage. Her need to know far supersedes your husbands irritation. I would tell her since this is information about her life that she needs to know.

Originally Posted by Penni4Thoughts
Mel, can you explain what recovery looks like? He hasn't had contact with those women in a long time. He admitted that the contact he was having with his ex-girlfriend wasn't appropriate. And, I have full access to his email and phone records. You say we can't follow the POJA until we are in recovery, so what else is needed?

Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Penni, he would need to give up his independent lifestyle. For example, his going out with his friends is bad for your marriage. It is also bad for your marriage for YOU to do the same in response to him.

Has he agreed to give up his opposite sex friendships?
In order for a marriage to work, both partners have to be willing to adopt the POJA. Your marriage has been a renters relationship.

See how smart Mel is? She nailed this on Page 1. And interestingly enough, you tried to skim over the point and never answered the question and now we see why, because your H never agreed to give up opposite sex friendships and I think you know that he never will.

You keep making excuses for your H and muddying the waters by talking about your own lovebusters and why your H is reluctant to POJA.

A WS who will not implement basic EPs after having an affair is not going to follow the rest of the program. This is no accident, Penni.

We do you no favors by allowing you to continue in denial...


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Originally Posted by Penni4Thoughts
Originally Posted by Prisca
Your marriage COULD be easily repaired, IF he were to put some work into it.

But he's not interested in that, is he Penni?


He wants things to improve but he seems to frame the problems as 100% my fault.

It works, too. You are here posting that you have made him afraid to POJA by your own mistakes, instead of there following Dr. Harley's advice and telling him that you will not continue to tolerate this.


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8.
Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010

If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
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Originally Posted by Penni4Thoughts
Originally Posted by Prisca
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Even after 2 1/2 years of marriage builders, I still frequently fall into thinking "My wife should feel different, the problem is she is seeing this wrong, etc."
The difference, Markos, is that you're willing to change your thinking. You're willing to protect your marriage.


I think that's it - if I could just get him to see this, things would start getting better.

You're not going to be able to get him to see this, though. He's NOT WILLING to see it. He has no reason to.

It's been 1.5+ years. He's not going to see it without some drastic steps from you.


Markos' Wife
FWW - EA
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What to do with an Angry Husband

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