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I have a question for the group.
My H has a friend who has been dating a woman for 5 years. Currently, they live in different cities. My H recently visited this friend and learned he is living and sleeping with a different woman, while maintaining his 5 year relationship. Neither woman knows about the other.
The five year relationship woman is wonderful. She has a great job, she is very kind, and she funds many trips they take together. The other woman is a piece of crap.
The man is one of my H's best friends. My H is very disappointed in him and told him he disapproves, and left it at that.
I think we should tell the 5 year relationship woman. H thinks we shouldn't because they are not married and he believes it will come to the surface eventually. He said he might be okay with me making a fake email address and emailing her about it, but he is still feeling extreme guilt about it. He thinks we should keep or noses out of other people's business.
What do you think? If they aren't married, should you still expose?
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Yes, I would still expose. She might end up marrying this loser. I would quietly send her an email giving her all the information she needs. Maybe not even mention it to your husband. Nice friends your husband has... 
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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Does the 5-year girl not know where he lives? Maybe she knows about this and their relationship is casual. I would be more concerned that BOTH women know about each other and that he maintains relationships with both of them, concurrently.
Just to make sure that everyone is on the same page. If someone is being deceived, that of course should be exposed. But if everyone is okay with the arrangement, then yes, it is none of your business, except to distance yourselves from people of such low morals.
I would write to her and say that you found it odd that he was living with this women in a romantic relationship, and you wanted make sure she was aware of it. I would also let live-in woman know. Look at it this way...if you had a long-term relationship OR a live-in relationship with someone who was deceiving you, wouldn't you want to know???
Marriage is the triumph of imagination over intelligence. Second marriage is the triumph of hope over experience.
(Oscar Wilde)
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Tell your husband that when he lies down with dogs, he is bound to get fleas. Your husband has very poor judgement in friends apparently. Does he hold the same moral values?
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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Mel, I despise this friend, which is one of the reasons I brought this question to the forum. I was wondering if I was letting my disdain for this man cloud my judgement.
CMWI, I KNOW that they don't know about each other. The 5-year girl knows that the friend has some commitment issues but in her mind they are in a committed relationship and will not be intimate with other people. She thinks if she waits it out a while he will eventually outgrow his commitment phobia and they will get married, which is also bad judgement on her part.
Mel, most of his friends are good people. This friend was from college when neither of them had girlfriends and their friendship remains because they share hobbies that they are both intense about. If it were up to me, this guy would be out of our lives for good. Of course, my H is not into POJA.
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Mel, I despise this friend, which is one of the reasons I brought this question to the forum. I was wondering if I was letting my disdain for this man cloud my judgement.
CMWI, I KNOW that they don't know about each other. The 5-year girl knows that the friend has some commitment issues but in her mind they are in a committed relationship and will not be intimate with other people. She thinks if she waits it out a while he will eventually outgrow his commitment phobia and they will get married, which is also bad judgement on her part.
Mel, most of his friends are good people. This friend was from college when neither of them had girlfriends and their friendship remains because they share hobbies that they are both intense about. If it were up to me, this guy would be out of our lives for good. Of course, my H is not into POJA. Interesting... Last guy I ever heard of like that was shagging my wife.
"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Niels Bohr
"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer
"Fair speech may hide a foul heart." - Samwise Gamgee LOTR
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Of course, my H is not into POJA. Right. Because he doesn't care about your feelings.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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This nice (your words) woman has spent 5 years of her life, waiting for this man, who she thinks loves her and who she thinks is committed to her. Five years long, she has refused dates from nice men, who want to date her. Five years long, she has grown older and passed up opportunities to be happy. Heck, she could have been married by now and having children! Her biological clock is ticking away. The first men who asked her for a date are off the market already!
Well, if you tell her with an anonymous e-mail-adress he will probably find out it was you anyway. Or tell her and swear her to secrecy. Or tell her mother. But TELL. What if is were you?
Do the right thing. Handle it with integrity. You asked the question, because deep in your heart, you know what you should do.
Good luck and stay on the good side,
Happyheart
me, DH
all the children
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This nice (your words) woman has spent 5 years of her life, waiting for this man, who she thinks loves her and who she thinks is committed to her. Five years long, she has refused dates from nice men, who want to date her. Five years long, she has grown older and passed up opportunities to be happy. Heck, she could have been married by now and having children! Her biological clock is ticking away. The first men who asked her for a date are off the market already!
Well, if you tell her with an anonymous e-mail-adress he will probably find out it was you anyway. Or tell her and swear her to secrecy. Or tell her mother. But TELL. What if is were you?
Do the right thing. Handle it with integrity. You asked the question, because deep in your heart, you know what you should do.
Good luck and stay on the good side,
Happyheart Yes, I do think telling her is the right thing to do. The issue is that they are not married and have been long distance for two years, so I guess I just wondered if MB folks would consider this worthy of exposure. Also, I agree that they will probably link it back to me and I am conflicted between causing harm in my marriage and helping another woman. I know, that sounds selfish, but the POJA would say do nothing unless you both enthusiastically agree, right? I am also afraid that it will cause my H to stop telling me stuff like this. In addition, if the friend finds out it was me, I predict (that's a DJ, isn't it) that H will feel guilty and go out of his way to mend the friend, which will include spending more time with this friend and without me. Things are definitely better when I am included in their hang outs. I know, still sounding selfish right now ....
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Penni, the POJA is for marriages in recovery. Yours is not. Besides, you just said your husband doesnt accept POJA. Telling this woman will not harm your marriage at all. It might make your husband mad but that is not harmful to your marriage. Her need to know far supersedes your husbands irritation. I would tell her since this is information about her life that she needs to know.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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Mel, can you explain what recovery looks like? He hasn't had contact with those women in a long time. He admitted that the contact he was having with his ex-girlfriend wasn't appropriate. And, I have full access to his email and phone records. You say we can't follow the POJA until we are in recovery, so what else is needed?
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Penni, he would need to give up his independent lifestyle. For example, his going out with his friends is bad for your marriage. It is also bad for your marriage for YOU to do the same in response to him.
Has he agreed to give up his opposite sex friendships?
In order for a marriage to work, both partners have to be willing to adopt the POJA. Your marriage has been a renters relationship.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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You ever think that this might alienate your husband from his other friends..?? Once they find out you have told on this guys activities.. which they will.. no one will want to confide in your husband for anything again because they know his wife will tell all on them.. just my thoughts...
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You ever think that this might alienate your husband from his other friends..?? Once they find out you have told on this guys activities.. which they will.. no one will want to confide in your husband for anything again because they know his wife will tell all on them.. just my thoughts... o traveler, alienating a loser who cheats on his fiance would be a good thing, not a bad thing. A "friend" does not help "friends" harm people behind their backs. You are confusing "friend" with a partner in crime. Penni should do the right thing and not sacrifice her principles so her husband does not alienate losers. This woman's right and need to know she is being harmed behind her back supercedes Penni's husbands desire to associate with moral retards.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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Traveler, I actually thought it might be a good thing if this would result in the couple of destructive friends leaving his life. However, at this stage what I think it will result in is H not telling me stuff like this anymore.
Okay Mel, so basically at this point I just need to get him to admit that his independent lifestyle won't work, and then we will be on our way?
Yesterday, one of my/our friends called. My H always viewed this particular woman as being a really confident and pulled together wife for her husband, because she let him do whatever he wanted. However, through this, she ended up letting her husband's wild and crazy single friend move in with them and then didn't complain about it at all for a year. Now, their relationship is exploding. My H admitted that her allowing or even encouraging an independent lifestyle from her H was a big problem and he then half admitted that he understands that I try to prevent those types of situations from arising and that is a good thing. A baby step, maybe.
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By the way, I sent the anonymous email but haven't heard anything in response.
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Okay Mel, so basically at this point I just need to get him to admit that his independent lifestyle won't work, and then we will be on our way? That is one thing that stands out. I don't know what the other issues are. I seem to remember your H has inappropriate friendships with members of the opposite sex and has had emotional affairs. Didn't Dr Harley tell you to separate?
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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By the way, I sent the anonymous email but haven't heard anything in response. You are a good guy, Penni. 
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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Okay Mel, so basically at this point I just need to get him to admit that his independent lifestyle won't work, and then we will be on our way? That is one thing that stands out. I don't know what the other issues are. I seem to remember your H has inappropriate friendships with members of the opposite sex and has had emotional affairs. Didn't Dr Harley tell you to separate? That's the primary issue, yes. This prompted me to re-listen to the show. I wrote way too long of a question, lol. He basically said that I have done the best I can so far and eventually our marriage will be ruined. He said to keep complaining and not to have children until this is resolved. He thinks that I am not at the point of separation yet, but will get there if things doing change. I just sent in another question, shorter this time, about IB.
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Just my 2cents, but I think you need to stick to one thread.
It saves people time to be able to look back at your thread and get the big picture...rather than getting bits of information or hearing a current problem and then having to ask Qs to get to the bottom of the root problem, KWIM?
For example, I agree with ML's comment regarding the renters relationship and I was going to post the renter's buyer's thread for you but now I am remembering I already posted that to you before.
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I'm sorry Suze, should I switch back to the other one?
My question was responded to on the radio today. They suggested I have my H listen to Charlie, I have thought about having him listen to the radio show many times. He seems to get mad when I suggest anything MB related but maybe I could get him to endure a 10 minute radio show.
Also, Dr. H recommended that my H write in and explain his position so that they can respond to it. I LOVE that idea, but again, I am not sure if he will do it. Maybe I can get him to say it and I can write it down.
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You are a good guy, Penni. Sorry to Hijack this thread, but I came here looking for advice and this post from Melody Lane lifted my spirits. I am in a similar situation. I found out that a family member of mine was cheating. I told their spouse and now it seems most of the family is mad at me, because in their words, I "tattled". I'm really feeling down even though I know I did the right thing. When I read "you are a good guy", it brought a smile to my face knowing that there are still some people in this world that have morals.
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((((((((((((((ozarka))))))))))) Good for you for doing the right thing. Sometimes it is hard to have the courage of our convictions. None of those people who are criticizing you have to live with your conscience, you do. You did good and I am proud to know you.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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Good job Ozarka!!
Update: I was right, my H wouldn't call in or email, but he was willing to list complaints while I wrote them down in an email and is willing to listen to the radio show if/when they respond to it.
Just to be clear, I did have to resist having my head spin around while breathing fire as I listened to these complaints, but I made it without one DJ.
Last edited by Penni4Thoughts; 10/26/11 06:49 PM.
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I'd like some input from the group, if possible.
Recently, because of a lot of work and family obligations, my husband and I have spent very little alone time together. I am feeling like my love bank, in terms of affection and conversation, is low.
My H and I finally have plans for dinner alone tonight - the entire upcoming weekend will be filled with non-stop family time. So, I wanted to make sure we got the most out of tonight and wanted to express that my love bank is feeling a little low. Sometimes when we go to dinner at this place which has lots of TVs, my H spends the whole night glued to the tube.
So, I told him that I am feeling a bit needy and hope we can be affectionate and talk a lot tonight and suggested that we consider someplace else where we can focus on each other. He found this highly offensive as if I was saying that he is not doing a good enough job. I tried to tell him that what he does when we have enough time together is great, it's just that we haven't had enough time together and I wanted to make sure we would get the most out of tonight.
He told me that he finds me being "needy" incredibly annoying and that I should just wait it out, rather than saying something, since everything will go back to normal after the holidays. He sounds like he is considering canceling our plans for tonight.
I want to be sensitive to the fact that it seems to hurt his ego when I tell him I am feeling needy and I am wondering if there is a better way for me to tell him when I feel like I need more affection. Thoughts?
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You did the right thing. If you don't tell your husband when you feel ignored he won't know. And if he doesn't know, he won't have a chance to make you feel better. But since he doesn't care, he views your feelings as an annoyance and reacts with insults and punishment.
Complaints are an opportunity to improve in a good marriage; an annoyance in a bad marriage.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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He told me that he finds me being "needy" incredibly annoying and that I should just wait it out, Which is a disrespectful judgement that shows a complete lack of caring. He sounds like he is considering canceling our plans for tonight. To punish you for expressing your feelings.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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Mel, I think my H is off the charts high on his need for admiration and the flip side of that is he is highly sensitive to DJs. He seemed really convinced that I was saying he is inadequate and not good enough. He just kept saying that over and over again, no matter what I said.
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[quote=Penni4Thoughts] He sounds like he is considering canceling our plans for tonight. To punish you for expressing your feelings. Yes, I said that I felt like he was saying that to punish me for being honest and he said that me saying that I am needy is a turnoff and makes him not want to be around me.
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Mel, I think my H is off the charts high on his need for admiration and the flip side of that is he is highly sensitive to DJs. He seemed really convinced that I was saying he is inadequate and not good enough. He just kept saying that over and over again, no matter what I said. That would make sense if you had criticized him or called him a name. You did neither. If your H told you he missed you and wanted to spend time with you, would you call him "needy" and put him down? Would you punish him? No, you wouldn't. Your complaint is the equivalent of the bank sending your H an overdraft notice. He might not like getting it, but not getting it is even worse because the bank will be overdrawn if he doesn't do something about it. Your H has to know when he is making lovebank withdrawals or soon the bank will be empty. I was saying he is inadequate and not good enough [ His efforts are not good enough, though. How will he know if you don't tell him? I think he uses outrage as a way to manipulate you into submission. You should not allow him to get away with that. When you do, you REWARD him and encourage him to gaslight you.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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[quote=Penni4Thoughts] He sounds like he is considering canceling our plans for tonight. To punish you for expressing your feelings. Yes, I said that I felt like he was saying that to punish me for being honest and he said that me saying that I am needy is a turnoff and makes him not want to be around me. Your husband is a turd. Sorry. 
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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The solution to a needy spouse is to do a better job of meeting her needs. Your husband's solution, though, is to gaslight you into silence.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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You're right, Mel, he is gaslighting. How would Dr. H respond to this:
When I tell him I am needing affection he responds by saying it's not a need, it's a want.
When I say I would like us to spend some time together being affectionate and that is helpful for our marriage, he says that he wants me to not be needy and that is helpful for our marriage and then asks why what I want is more important than what he wants. I know this is gaslighting, but I have a hard time explaining why. Can you put it into words for me?
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Pennni, the problem is not that your husband doesn't understand or that you are just not explaining it well enough, but that he doesn't care. Explaining it better will not make him care for you. He is refusing to meet your needs. That is what it comes down to.
As far as need versus want, you NEED affection from him in order to be in love with him. Ignoring that need erodes the love you feel for him. He "wants" to ignore you, but what does that do for the love in your marriage? I would tell him that.
I would seriously consider Dr Harley's advice to you to separate.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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Okay, well does him not caring suggest that I need to do a better job of meeting his needs and avoiding LBs? Or, could it just be that he is really a hopeless turd.
It just feels like it isn't bad enough to separate ... but I know that this same crap happening over and over again would suck over a lifetime.
Do you Plan A before separating in cases like this?
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Okay, well does him not caring suggest that I need to do a better job of meeting his needs and avoiding LBs? Or, could it just be that he is really a hopeless turd.
It just feels like it isn't bad enough to separate ... but I know that this same crap happening over and over again would suck over a lifetime.
Do you Plan A before separating in cases like this? Another way to put it is that if he doesn't "want" you to be needy, then he should satisfy your needs so you are not needy. Isn't that logical? If it doesn't bother you, then there is no reason to separate.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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Yes, I have tried that and he then goes back to - I shouldn't feel needy because I should be happy with what I have.
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It does bother me, I guess it just hasn't pushed me to the point of separation.
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Yes, I have tried that and he then goes back to - I shouldn't feel needy because I should be happy with what I have. But, you are not.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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It does bother me, I guess it just hasn't pushed me to the point of separation. The biggest problem I see is not that you have failed to meet his needs, but that you allow him to gaslight you. You can't control that, but you can control your reaction. Don't let him be successful when he does that.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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Okay, well does him not caring suggest that I need to do a better job of meeting his needs and avoiding LBs? Or, could it just be that he is really a hopeless turd.
It just feels like it isn't bad enough to separate ... but I know that this same crap happening over and over again would suck over a lifetime. Penni, I had that kind of thing for 25 years. It sucked. And his bad behavior escalated. He never actually hit me, but he hit the kids a couple of times. And then my husband had the affair. If Dr. Harley suggested that you separate, I think you need to consider following his advice. You are still in the "honeymoon" phase of your marriage. It will only get worse. Twenty-five years from now, you don't want to be like me-divorced with a bunch of kids who never see their father because he never bothered to have a relationship with them.
Me: BS 51
Himself: WH 53, EA/PA w/ RunnerSlut his "running buddy."
Buncha' kids. The two youngest are still minors.
Separated: 08/13/09 after 25 years of marriage
Plan D: Filed 11/13/09 Final 3/30/11
MC told me that he probably has a personality disorder
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You're right, Mel, he is gaslighting. How would Dr. H respond to this:
When I tell him I am needing affection he responds by saying it's not a need, it's a want.
When I say I would like us to spend some time together being affectionate and that is helpful for our marriage, he says that he wants me to not be needy and that is helpful for our marriage and then asks why what I want is more important than what he wants. I know this is gaslighting, but I have a hard time explaining why. Can you put it into words for me? Penni, is your H familiar with MB concepts? He sounds like a bully, and I say that because my H used to be a bully. He didn't like conflict - he wanted everything to flow smoothly (his way) so that everyone was happy and there was no hassle. If conflict appeared inevitable, he would resort to bullying tactics to get the outcome he desired. That is unrealistic and will create massive resentment for you. We had to work on his bullying to get 'his' way in our marriage, and that involved a lot of work with the POJA. It sounds like your H is similar. How are you doing with the POJA?
D-Day 2-10-2009
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Thank you Marriage Builders!
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MB, that sounds very familiar. He has a really hard time dealing with conflict and he likes to shut it down as quickly as possible. POJA is very difficult with him if it is around something he has strong feelings about. He moves to being defensive instantly and once he has decided on a course of action (even if I don't agree with it), finds it very difficult to deviate.
He is somewhat familiar with MB concepts. I have gotten him to read the basic concepts and he even filled out the questionnaires a long time ago. I even got him to speak to Steve once more recently, and he said that Steve said a lot of things that made sense, but refused to talk to him again because he thinks therapy is for people with serious problems (and i am the one with the problem). In general, he thinks that MB is too "cookie cutter" to work and that it requires him to give up part of himself.
MB, what got your husband to see the problem in his approach and change?
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Oh. Good. Grief.
Penni, I went back and read a lot of your old posts. Since you got married, your husband has engaged in EAs. He lies and puts his friends and his hobby before his marriage. He hid his spending from you. He told you he wanted a divorce and started moving into the basement until you gave in to his demands. He categorically refuses to attempt POJA and calls you "controlling" when you ask him to end his IBs. Now he's gaslighting??
Me: BS 51
Himself: WH 53, EA/PA w/ RunnerSlut his "running buddy."
Buncha' kids. The two youngest are still minors.
Separated: 08/13/09 after 25 years of marriage
Plan D: Filed 11/13/09 Final 3/30/11
MC told me that he probably has a personality disorder
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MB, what got your husband to see the problem in his approach and change? Penni, the issue is not that your husband doesn't "see" but that he doesn't CARE. He doesn't have a problem with his approach, YOU DO. He doesn't care. You have already told him.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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Since you are here posting tonight, I take it he didn't take you out to punish you?
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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MB, what got your husband to see the problem in his approach and change? I went over the POJA with him. He didn't like the idea. Many don't, initially. There are a lot of people who don't like the idea of losing some perceived 'control' over things. It wasn't easy to get the POJA going, I'm not going to lie to you. But I remained consistent that the POJA was another tool to protect our marriage. I like to control things. My H does, too. Two controlling individuals creates an interesting dynamic for a married couple. Approach it as a team. I think one of the hardest things for my H to learn was that I wasn't the Marriage Police - I had the utmost protection of our marriage in mind. And he had to learn that he wasn't going to be 'penalized' if he 'got it wrong'. Determine your rules of engagement. What is the best way you can initially address something? If something bothers you and you are starting to butt heads, you may want to consider backing off and emailing your concerns to each other or writing them down for the other spouse to read. That can help to take some of the moment's emotion out of play. That works really well for us when we're at an impasse. It gives us a chance to back off and look at all sides of the issue. Now? We still have times when we say "Let's wait on discussing this." So much of it depends on both parties committing to having their marriage foremost in their mind. Both parties have to let go of their control first.
Last edited by maritalbliss; 12/15/11 08:36 PM.
D-Day 2-10-2009
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Thank you Marriage Builders!
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He is working late, the plan was for a late dinner, I will know in about 20 minutes if he is still into going. Look, I married him for a reason, he is funny and charming and can be really sweet and thoughtful, and he is really into family. He does his share around the house, he works hard, he's attractive, and SF is great. There are many things worth saving here. I don't feel like I am in an awful situation (it probably sounds like it because this is not a place where people post how great everything there hubby did that day was), I just want to make my current situation better.
MB, thanks for your post. Yes, I think my previous behavior of nonstop DJs and SDs has made my H scared of trying POJA. I have changed a lot, but I am not sure he trusts it yet. He always used to say that I acted like I knew everything and I knew exactly what we needed - I did do that. I am/was controlling. I think it is hard for him to imagine a situation where we could negotiate in a way that makes us both happy. Maybe i am just being impatient.
I have done really good at backing off before things get emotional now (we used to have awful fights) but we don't always get to a resolution. The conversation we had today would have previously ended in some nasty words - this time no harsh words were said, no voices were raised, we just didn't agree. It may not sound like a good situation to outsiders, but for me, it's progress.
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It may not sound like a good situation to outsiders, but for me, it's progress. That is very scary. Have you considered that maybe outsiders are immensely more objective than you are? Why do you believe that one of the top marriage experts in the US, Dr Bill Harley, told you to separate? Why do you think many of the posters on this board have told you the same thing? It is because all of those good things you cite do not compensate for your husband's extremely uncaring, mean, thoughtless behavior. He not only routinely gaslights you, but he refuses to meet your needs. There is nothing sweet about that. That is mean. But you are telling us that this is "progress."  Do you understand how you sound to outsiders? When I read your post to my husband about your H's reaction to your request for attention, his mouth dropped. I did not tell him anything beforehand. He had never heard of you. But he was even shocked at how callous and cruel your husband is. For you to call this "progress" makes me think you have stockholm syndrome.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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Yes, I think my previous behavior of nonstop DJs and SDs has made my H scared of trying POJA. Your H doesn't use POJA because he is a renter and he is basically wayward. From what I can remember you have been workin on Plan A (eliminating lovebusters and meeting his needs better with little expectation for him to meet your needs) for a LONG time and he is still not onboard. How long do you plan to Plan A him for?
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So, I told him that I am feeling a bit needy and hope we can be affectionate and talk a lot tonight and suggested that we consider someplace else where we can focus on each other. He found this highly offensive as if I was saying that he is not doing a good enough job. I tried to tell him that what he does when we have enough time together is great, it's just that we haven't had enough time together and I wanted to make sure we would get the most out of tonight.
He told me that he finds me being "needy" incredibly annoying and that I should just wait it out, rather than saying something, since everything will go back to normal after the holidays. He sounds like he is considering canceling our plans for tonight.
I want to be sensitive to the fact that it seems to hurt his ego when I tell him I am feeling needy and I am wondering if there is a better way for me to tell him when I feel like I need more affection. Thoughts? Wow. Just wow. We're having an extremely busy holiday season, too. A few days ago, I told Markos in tears "I'm feeling very emotional and needy right now." He responded by showering me with affection and attention. He let me know that he adored my emotions, and my needing him. Agreeing with Melody and her husband -- your husband doesn't care about you at all. Dr. Harley advised you to separate? Why are you still with this man, then?
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since everything will go back to normal after the holidays. I waited 15 years for our lives to become "normal" so that we could increase our intimacy. There was ALWAYS something going on. Always some crisis. Finishing college, busy season at work, too hot, too cold, too pregnant, just had a baby, someone's sick, too tired/anemia, etc. Some people are better at coming up with excuses to NOT do something than to do it, regardless of the energy it would take (or the rewards) to change their behavior. Objectively, looking back, I'm embarrassed of what I tolerated. But I didn't gain that objectivity until after the relationship ended. I wish someone would have helped me see what I was missing - she never had any plans to try and meet my needs. opt
Me: 43 y.o. BFWH, D-day 11/11/09 (NC since 9/01) Divorce from WW final 9/16/10. Current Status: MB-based Marriage to Nature Girl 12/8/12 (first date on 12/11/10) Mine: S(16), D(11) NatureGirls: S(23), D(21) Another EA Story
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Opt - The difference is you realized the mistake and worked hard with your xWW to fix the problems. That makes you a great man.
You tried all you could to save that marriage. I think that is admirable in a man.
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since everything will go back to normal after the holidays. I waited 15 years for our lives to become "normal" so that we could increase our intimacy. There was ALWAYS something going on. Always some crisis. Finishing college, busy season at work, too hot, too cold, too pregnant, just had a baby, someone's sick, too tired/anemia, etc. Some people are better at coming up with excuses to NOT do something than to do it, regardless of the energy it would take (or the rewards) to change their behavior. Objectively, looking back, I'm embarrassed of what I tolerated. But I didn't gain that objectivity until after the relationship ended. I wish someone would have helped me see what I was missing - she never had any plans to try and meet my needs. opt Dh and I were just discussing this earlier this week. How much we tolerated from our previous spouses and how it makes us shake our heads in disbelief now. We both agreed it was a pretty good refining work....making us see needs and the marriage clearly and making us want to be the best mate we can be.
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Hey thanks Tough and SW! I need a little encouragement right now. My tenant is moving out and with the D, my financial margins are bleeding edge thin. Very nervous, but hopeful.
Penni, I hope you consider all the good guidance you're getting here. Of course take your time, but know ultimately the decision is yours to remove yourself from a situation in which you are not able to thrive. The alternatives are many and varied even if it doesn't seem like it. From working hard on the program to getting out and "going alone."
opt
Me: 43 y.o. BFWH, D-day 11/11/09 (NC since 9/01) Divorce from WW final 9/16/10. Current Status: MB-based Marriage to Nature Girl 12/8/12 (first date on 12/11/10) Mine: S(16), D(11) NatureGirls: S(23), D(21) Another EA Story
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"When a spouse refuses to meet the other spouse's important emotional needs, whether it's affection, financial support, or any of the others, from my perspective they have violated the terms of their marital agreement. A marital relationship is not unconditional. There are many conditions that must be kept to keep spouses feeling love toward each other, and to be safe and healthy. When those conditions are violated, the spouses suffer. Affairs are the worst way to compensate for a spouse's failure to meet an emotional need. And trying to force a spouse to meet those needs is also very unethical. But separation, and even divorce, is a logical and ethical way for for spouse to communicate the fact that unmet emotional needs will not be tolerated.
I know that your care for your wife is unconditional. And that's part of your problem. As long as you provide care for her without care being given in return, you will continue to be disappointed. My recommendation for a separation would make it clear that you expect her to do her part in this marriage. She would have a choice. The alternative is to feel the way you do today, which is not good for either of you. I'll ask Kim if she can help mediate, but a separation might be a necessary first step."
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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Hi All, thanks for the tough love. I think after a while, you forget what's normal. Prisca's example is exactly what I wish would happen.
We still went to dinner and he initiated the conversation about this topic. He said, "Could you just say, 'I'm really looking forward to spending time with you' and I will take that as code meaning that you are feeling needy. I just hate that word, needy."
The rest of the evening was very good.
It seems weird to get wrapped up in semantics.
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He also admitted that as soon as he starts feeling a little emotional about something, he loses the ability to be flexible and understanding - he immediately moves to defending himself. He said he wants to work on it, but doesn't know how.
Maybe MB's suggestion about writing stuff down will help.
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Dr. Harley didn't tell me to separate, he said to keep complaining and that eventually he would either change or I would want to separate.
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Penni,
I'm a linguist, and I'm usually the first to say that semantics are important because it's how we communicate.
However, in this case, I don't care WHAT words you choose to use, it's his reaction to your needing attention that is alarming.
So he doesn't care for the word "needy." Doesn't excuse him telling you that you're incredibly annoying for wanting attention and that you "should just wait it out, rather than saying something, since everything will go back to normal after the holidays."
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He said, "Could you just say, 'I'm really looking forward to spending time with you' and I will take that as code meaning that you are feeling needy. I just hate that word, needy." But isn't he the one that labels YOU as needy? That's what he called you in his letter to the radio show....along with calling you paranoid and jealous. Has he stopped calling you these things? He also admitted that as soon as he starts feeling a little emotional about something, he loses the ability to be flexible and understanding - he immediately moves to defending himself. He said he wants to work on it, but doesn't know how. How can it be blamed on when he feels "emotional" if he flat-out disagrees with POJA and refuses to give up IB? Dr. Harley didn't tell me to separate, he said to keep complaining and that eventually he would either change or I would want to separate. Dr Harley also told you to not have children until this is resolved and if your H doesn't change, it is eventually going to destroy your M. http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=2624#I don't mean to hammer you, Penny, but I do feel there is some degree of denial on your part of how bad this situation is. In the radio clip, you wrote that your H didn't want you looking at his cell phone. And you didn't even tell Dr Harley that he has had budding EAs with women before. Does he still get upset when you expect him to be transparent?
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Penni, I'm going to throw you a bone here, as someone who has been married to, and is still married to, someone who said such stupid crap as your H. What Susie quoted above about what your H requested you to say, well, it works. I was thinking all along that you should have simply chosen a restaurant that meets both your needs (assuming his is good food and yours is intimacy) and simply suggested it. "Hey, I thought we could go to [tv-free restaurant] tonight, I heard their [his favorite food] is awesome." Simple, easy. No fuss. If he insists on tv restaurant, say, "I don't really like the televisions." There is NO dissing on him in any of that. He may just be what the others have said, but you can stop the outright complaining and DJs. It's a creative effort. My H doesn't necessarily like me looking at his cell phone, but he doesn't mind at all when he doesn't know I've done it. It's not locked, it sits on the counter, but he will get a little riled if he catches me looking without asking first. If I ask, though, he's fine with it. He doesn't like catching me snooping, because it makes him feel untrusted. Oh well, comes with the territory of lying. So indignation does not last for long.
Marriage is the triumph of imagination over intelligence. Second marriage is the triumph of hope over experience.
(Oscar Wilde)
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Dr. Harley didn't tell me to separate, he said to keep complaining and that eventually he would either change or I would want to separate. And he refuses to change. He refuses to meet your needs. So yes, Dr Harley did tell you to separate.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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He said, "Could you just say, 'I'm really looking forward to spending time with you' and I will take that as code meaning that you are feeling needy. I just hate that word, needy." But isn't he the one that labels YOU as needy? That's what he called you in his letter to the radio show....along with calling you paranoid and jealous. Has he stopped calling you these things? He also admitted that as soon as he starts feeling a little emotional about something, he loses the ability to be flexible and understanding - he immediately moves to defending himself. He said he wants to work on it, but doesn't know how. How can it be blamed on when he feels "emotional" if he flat-out disagrees with POJA and refuses to give up IB? Dr. Harley didn't tell me to separate, he said to keep complaining and that eventually he would either change or I would want to separate. Dr Harley also told you to not have children until this is resolved and if your H doesn't change, it is eventually going to destroy your M. http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=2624#I don't mean to hammer you, Penny, but I do feel there is some degree of denial on your part of how bad this situation is. In the radio clip, you wrote that your H didn't want you looking at his cell phone. And you didn't even tell Dr Harley that he has had budding EAs with women before. Does he still get upset when you expect him to be transparent? Hi Suze, yes, my H really wants to have kids and I have already told him it's not happening until we can get better at POJA. I think I understand that this situation is bad but I also believe in trying your hardest to have a good marriage and avoiding divorce, if possible. So, I am hear learning and trying. I think the other thing is most of the time, situations where he is not considering my feelings do not come up and he does a good job of meeting my needs most of the time - so most of the time things are good. To me, the primary reason we need to resolve this now is because if we ever have kids, there will be a lot more situations that will require POJA and it will be much more frustrating to me than it is now.
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Penni, I'm going to throw you a bone here, as someone who has been married to, and is still married to, someone who said such stupid crap as your H. What Susie quoted above about what your H requested you to say, well, it works. I was thinking all along that you should have simply chosen a restaurant that meets both your needs (assuming his is good food and yours is intimacy) and simply suggested it. "Hey, I thought we could go to [tv-free restaurant] tonight, I heard their [his favorite food] is awesome." Simple, easy. No fuss. If he insists on tv restaurant, say, "I don't really like the televisions." There is NO dissing on him in any of that. He may just be what the others have said, but you can stop the outright complaining and DJs. It's a creative effort. My H doesn't necessarily like me looking at his cell phone, but he doesn't mind at all when he doesn't know I've done it. It's not locked, it sits on the counter, but he will get a little riled if he catches me looking without asking first. If I ask, though, he's fine with it. He doesn't like catching me snooping, because it makes him feel untrusted. Oh well, comes with the territory of lying. So indignation does not last for long. Good point, CWMI, I could leave out the feelings part and just make the request. He considers me saying that I am feeling needy a DJ, like I don't think he is doing good enough, even if I try to preface it with us being busy. My H is the same as yours now about the cell phone. If I ask, he doesn't mind if I look but he really doesn't want me to be sneaky about it because he thinks it conveys that I don't trust him or I am trying to catch him.
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[ To me, the primary reason we need to resolve this now is because if we ever have kids, there will be a lot more situations that will require POJA and it will be much more frustrating to me than it is now. So has he agreed to start using the POJA?
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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So has he agreed to start using the POJA? Again, we get lost in semantics. He refuses to use the term POJA and says he will not use any specific technique, but he does in some situations without acknowledging it. Over time, we seem to be using POJA for more things, I think this is a result of me getting better at it. However, there are some things that he thinks are his "right" to make a decision on without my input. For example, he is refusing to negotiate about Christmas presents for his family (he negotiated amount to spend but that's it) and when he hasn't seen his friends for a while, he will refuse to negotiate the parameters of their hang out time (but this is slowly getting better). Often times, we can talk about one of these situations he refused to negotiate about a few months later and he will be able to see how he should have considered my opinion. It seems like he is better at it once the emotion and urgency is removed. Often times, if we reexamine something a few months later and he sees my point, he will then do things differently the next time a very similar situation comes up, but it doesn't generalize to new situations. I feel like I am chipping away and a mammoth stone! It's soo much work!
Last edited by Penni4Thoughts; 12/18/11 10:38 AM.
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In other words, he refuses to use the Policy of Joint Agreement unless he doesn't KNOW he might be using it.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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He considers me saying that I am feeling needy a DJ, Well, it's not. You stating your feelings is not a judgement of him. Please do not have children with this man. He is not father material.
Me: BS 51
Himself: WH 53, EA/PA w/ RunnerSlut his "running buddy."
Buncha' kids. The two youngest are still minors.
Separated: 08/13/09 after 25 years of marriage
Plan D: Filed 11/13/09 Final 3/30/11
MC told me that he probably has a personality disorder
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So has he agreed to start using the POJA? Again, we get lost in semantics. He refuses to use the term POJA and says he will not use any specific technique, but he does in some situations without acknowledging it. So, the answer is "no." Over time, we seem to be using POJA for more things, I think this is a result of me getting better at it. However, there are some things that he thinks are his "right" to make a decision on without my input. For example, he is refusing to negotiate about Christmas presents for his family (he negotiated amount to spend but that's it) and when he hasn't seen his friends for a while, he will refuse to negotiate the parameters of their hang out time (but this is slowly getting better). Basically, there are many, many things that are more important to him than you and your marriage. Yes. Crappy marriages are A LOT of work. Especially when one spouse flat out refuses to do anything about it.
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Look guys, I appreciate you giving me the harsh reality of what I am facing and affirming that my concerns are warranted. However, the truth is that I am not currently in a place where I feel like my marriage is so horrible that I must separate. I think I might have been there a year or so ago, but it has improved and so I remain hopeful. Sometimes I wonder if I am just not communicating what is happening very well and so you aren't getting the full picture.
My husband is making positive changes, it's just that it requires a lot of work on my part before it happens, and that sucks. It would be easier if he just bought into marriage builders and figured stuff out on his own.
At this point, I am still in a place where I think there is value in continuing to try. This is my decision to make, and mine alone. What I am really looking for here is some confirmation that I am heading in the right direction, especially when I am being gaslighted. Also, I know I can continue to improve - I was awful with DJs and SDs and I am better but still working on it. In addition, figuring out new ways to explain things with him is helpful.
In another post, someone mentioned the electric fence personality and so I searched for it on the site and read about it. I think my H might have that. I am not sure what that would mean in terms of what we should do differently, though.
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At this point, I am still in a place where I think there is value in continuing to try. This is my decision to make, and mine alone. What I am really looking for here is some confirmation that I am heading in the right direction, especially when I am being gaslighted The posters, almost to a person, do not believe you are heading in the right direction, though. It is your decision to make, but you aren't going to get validation from many people for a bad decision. [some people will validate anything though] What you are asking us to do is help you push a car up the hill with the parking brake on because you are unwilling to do anything about the parking brake.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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What I am really looking for here is some confirmation that I am heading in the right direction, especially when I am being gaslighted Would you like us to lie?
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So has he agreed to start using the POJA? Often times, we can talk about one of these situations he refused to negotiate about a few months later and he will be able to see how he should have considered my opinion. It seems like he is better at it once the emotion and urgency is removed. Often times, if we reexamine something a few months later and he sees my point, he will then do things differently the next time a very similar situation comes up, but it doesn't generalize to new situations. I feel like I am chipping away and a mammoth stone! It's soo much work! He is just pacifying you so he can basically keep doing whatever he wants whenever he wants with no regard to your feelings. I'm with Kirby. Don't have children with him.
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If I ask, he doesn't mind if I look but he really doesn't want me to be sneaky about it because he thinks it conveys that I don't trust him or I am trying to catch him. Do you have access to the phone records? This is a big RED FLAG. I don't know if CWMI's H has had budding EAs, when your spouse has a history of crossing the line with women before and of having a Secret Second Life, you are flatout being gaslit when they accuse you of *not trusting* them. Also when they accuse you of being paranoid and jealous. Ask me how I know. SSL + IB (or refusal to POJA) = he is at an extremely high risk for having another affair. I know you don't want debbie downer-type posts, but I can see the writing on the wall and I just figured I would try to warn you one last time...
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If I ask, he doesn't mind if I look but he really doesn't want me to be sneaky about it because he thinks it conveys that I don't trust him or I am trying to catch him. Penni, that is the point. You don't trust him and you should be trying to catch him. You need to be sneaky about snooping if it is to be effective. Obviously, snooping cannot be effective if he knows you are doing it. He should never know about your methods. NEVER. And in your marriage, I would be snooping like a bloodhound. I would have spyware with a built in GPS on his phone, a VAR in his car, a keylogger on his computer, everything. You might even want to hire a PI. If he has nothing to hide, he wouldn't mind anyway.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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If I ask, he doesn't mind if I look but he really doesn't want me to be sneaky about it because he thinks it conveys that I don't trust him or I am trying to catch him. Do you have access to the phone records? This is a big RED FLAG. I don't know if CWMI's H has had budding EAs, when your spouse has a history of crossing the line with women before and of having a Secret Second Life, you are flatout being gaslit when they accuse you of *not trusting* them. Also when they accuse you of being paranoid and jealous. Ask me how I know. SSL + IB (or refusal to POJA) = he is at an extremely high risk for having another affair. I know you don't want debbie downer-type posts, but I can see the writing on the wall and I just figured I would try to warn you one last time... Thanks all, having a downturn. You are all right. I do have access to phone records but he suddenly changed all of his passwords to all of his accounts and his computer. I asked him about one that I needed while paying a bill this morning and he openly gave it to me. I then proceeded to check everything else and realized they had new passwords. So, I am going to ask him about them tonight and see how he responds. I am 90% sure he will say, you don't need all of these just so you can check up on me. Also, he told me he had to work through lunch today and couldn't do our usual call but I saw credit card activity during his lunchtime indicating that he was online shopping. It was small stuff for his hobby, so not anything I would be upset about him purchasing, just weird that he would tell me he was busy. This sucks.
Last edited by Penni4Thoughts; 12/21/11 06:05 PM.
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He also got out of work 45 minutes late yesterday and didn't call or text to tell me he would be late. When he did call on his way home, I asked him what held him up and he instantly went on the defense and got mad at me for asking him about it and he called me way too needy again (it is very rare for him to work late). Then he said, remember, I almost moved out because of your neediness. Not good.
Last edited by Penni4Thoughts; 12/21/11 06:09 PM.
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Sorry PenniFour,
At the very least arriving home 45 minutes late without an explanation or letting you know asap is independent behavior, inconsiderate of your feelings, and suspicious. That he got defensive is a BRF (Big Red Flag). That he called you needy is a Disrespectful Judgement. He threatened your relationship -- that's... I don't even know...
He's removing love units by the bushelfull and doesn't seem to be a bit concerned about it.
I can say, thinking back to my wayward days that I would have acted the same way as your husband is right now during any of my episodes of adultery. Same with the passwords -- I had everything secret from my wife; it was a mind-set, and a very unhealthy one.
I say the above with much conviction as I am now involved with someone who I would literally share anything with (email, passwords, web history, locations, timing/schedules). I would be highly concerned if she expressed uneasiness about anything I was doing - in fact this has come up with both of us and it was addressed by immediately discontinuing the activity; no questions asked. We don't want to make each other uncomfortable regardless of how "unreasonable" it might sound to an outsider -- we know what our relationship means to us.
Opt
Me: 43 y.o. BFWH, D-day 11/11/09 (NC since 9/01) Divorce from WW final 9/16/10. Current Status: MB-based Marriage to Nature Girl 12/8/12 (first date on 12/11/10) Mine: S(16), D(11) NatureGirls: S(23), D(21) Another EA Story
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Penny, sorry you are going through this. I agree with everything opt said.
Wanted to add quickly (gotta run)...
The tactic of hoping he will slowly come around and adopt these principles into his lifestyle when he hasn't given you any indication he wants/needs to change is not a good one. Especially with someone who has a history of a SSL or trouble being open (as you phrased it on that radio show)
This is the exact topic that I spoke to Dr Harley about the first time I was on the radio show. That is a hard habit to break that will take LOTSA WORK on your H's part, forgetting the question of whether he even believes radical honesty is necessary to marriage or if he even admits he has trouble with honesty & openness (Dr Harley said he would want to see both of these to be optimistic my STBX would change).
So what I am saying is he needs to CARE enough to even try to break these bad habits...which he doesn't. Clearly.
Have you read "When to Call It Quits"?
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He also got out of work 45 minutes late yesterday and didn't call or text to tell me he would be late. When he did call on his way home, I asked him what held him up and he instantly went on the defense and got mad at me for asking him about it and he called me way too needy again (it is very rare for him to work late). Then he said, remember, I almost moved out because of your neediness. Not good. Do you have a keylogger on your home computer? I didn't understand the other post, did he give you access to his cell records?
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Hi Opt and SuzieQ,
Yes, this all makes sense. He isn't willing to try right now and he is not going to wake up tomorrow and suddenly change. It's going to take something drastic to change it.
I have read When to Call It Quits several times, I have just been in denial about having to go that route!
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He also got out of work 45 minutes late yesterday and didn't call or text to tell me he would be late. When he did call on his way home, I asked him what held him up and he instantly went on the defense and got mad at me for asking him about it and he called me way too needy again (it is very rare for him to work late). Then he said, remember, I almost moved out because of your neediness. Not good. Do you have a keylogger on your home computer? I didn't understand the other post, did he give you access to his cell records? We are on a joint cell phone plan and I have the password and can access all of the records and he knows that. I also still have access to his passwords for his credit cards. It's just his emails and his computer that I no longer have access to.
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Do you have a keylogger on your home computer/s? If not, I would put on on there...like, yesterday...
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We each have our own computer and right now I can't even log onto his computer because of the password change. I think he has more than one user account on his computer, too. Do I need to install it on each user account?
He is also very computer savvy so I am a little nervous I will get caught. In addition, he is in the habit of wiping his hard drive every few months and then re-intalling his programs to "keep it fresh" so it might not last for long.
If I can get the password to get on, I will install a keylogger.
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Also, he uses something called "activity monitor" to monitor all power draws on his Mac .. so I wonder if that would pick up a keylogger.
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He is also very computer savvy so I am a little nervous I will get caught. In addition, he is in the habit of wiping his hard drive every few months and then re-intalling his programs to "keep it fresh" so it might not last for long. My ex had her own computer and I had trouble installing softwear (I'm not knowledgable about computers). The best I could do was check history which was somewhat revealing. There is a whole board about recon -- I would go there for some answers. That wasn't around when I was going through this part of it. I would say that if he is starting to come home late, and not tell you were he is at lunch, he's probably getting sloppy and will do something obvious sooner or later -- IF he's seeing someone. (he COULD have been out buying you Christmas presents, but there are ways to let you know this without spoiling any surprises; there is no reason to be defensive about it like he was). If he's NOT having an affair, and you're not satisfied with how things are, then you are doing right to voice your concerns and see what his reaction is. opt
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Have you asked him why he feels he needs to have a secret password for his emails?
opt
Me: 43 y.o. BFWH, D-day 11/11/09 (NC since 9/01) Divorce from WW final 9/16/10. Current Status: MB-based Marriage to Nature Girl 12/8/12 (first date on 12/11/10) Mine: S(16), D(11) NatureGirls: S(23), D(21) Another EA Story
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I do have access to phone records but he suddenly changed all of his passwords to all of his accounts and his computer. You know what this means. Deep in your guy, you know what this means. Penni, he is not committed to faithfulness, the basic requirement of a marriage. I am 90% sure he will say, you don't need all of these just so you can check up on me. He could spout any kind of insanity, and it wouldn't make any difference, would it? You are the expert on what you need, not him. His opinion does not trump yours.
If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app! Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8. Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010 If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
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Have you asked him why he feels he needs to have a secret password for his emails?
opt I did this morning. He said it is not a secret, it's just that you should change your passwords occasionally for security purposes. I asked for them and he said he has nothing to hide but doesn't understand why I need them. He sort of vaguely left me with the impression that he would give them to me if I pressed him but begrudgingly. I will request them tonight - it is going to be hard to do without making it sound like an SD. I think what I will do is write all of my passwords down in one place for him and then request that he do the same. He also created a new email address. He has 5 now!! He barely uses email - I'm not sure why he needs so many but it seems suspicious. I think at this point he is not protecting a specific relationship but more his independence. In the past, old me would read an email and catch him in a white lie and then SD and DJ him to death. He was already doing IBs, but I made it worse.
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. He sort of vaguely left me with the impression that he would give them to me if I pressed him but begrudgingly. I will request them tonight - it is going to be hard to do without making it sound like an SD. Transparency is not a selfish demand. It is a basic requirement of an open, honest marriage. Frankly, I would just slap a keylogger on his computer and his phone and find out who he is doing. It is obvious that he is having an affair or at the very least trolling for one.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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His opinion does not trump yours. I can't tell you how many times I have said this to him. It seems like common sense and decency but he seems to think that his opinion is right and mine is crazy/stupid/distorted. Two days ago he told me, "You are distorted" during an argument and I said, "Do not speak to me like that, it is disrespectful. I think what you might mean to say is that you are having a hard time seeing my perspective and I am having a hard time seeing yours." He just got quiet. I wonder if what I said was a DJ - it was sort of me educating him and I know he gets mad when I talk like I am smarter/know more.
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His opinion does not trump yours. I can't tell you how many times I have said this to him. It seems like common sense and decency but he seems to think that his opinion is right and mine is crazy/stupid/distorted. This is a serious problem, and you need a plan to overcome it.
If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app! Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8. Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010 If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
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Two days ago he told me, "You are distorted" during an argument and I said, "Do not speak to me like that, it is disrespectful. I think what you might mean to say is that you are having a hard time seeing my perspective and I am having a hard time seeing yours." He just got quiet. I wonder if what I said was a DJ - it was sort of me educating him and I know he gets mad when I talk like I am smarter/know more. Well, telling him what he might mean could be a DJ but telling him not to speak to you like that is not. That's called having boundaries and self-respect. I would be incredibly suspicious. There's no reason why he shouldn't be willing to give you the passwords to his email addresses on the spot. And 5?! Good Lord.
Husband (me) 39
Wife 36
Daughter 21
Daughter 19
Son 14
Daughter 10
Son 8 (autistic)
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I can't tell you how many times I have said this to him. It seems like common sense and decency but he seems to think that his opinion is right and mine is crazy/stupid/distorted. I wish I had understood this concept better when my marriage was breaking under the strain of adultery. The jist of it is: "I need to feel safe in this relationship and by you doing ___XYZ___ I am not feeling safe" -- (for me it was WW going to tanning salon/grocery shopping/daily smoking breaks with neighbor, after full blown EA with other neighbor). and "if you are not willing to help me feel safe in the relationship then I will be forced to reevaluate my place with you". There's a language that goes along with the philosophy here and it takes a while for it all to gel. opt
Me: 43 y.o. BFWH, D-day 11/11/09 (NC since 9/01) Divorce from WW final 9/16/10. Current Status: MB-based Marriage to Nature Girl 12/8/12 (first date on 12/11/10) Mine: S(16), D(11) NatureGirls: S(23), D(21) Another EA Story
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I am glad to see you started that thread over in Operation Investigation and I hope you get that keylogger installed successfully.
Just wanted to add that the fact that he regularly wipes his computer and changes passwords and has five emails along with all of the other things you have told us about him, I just want you to brace yourself for the possibility (and I hope that I am wrong here) that there may be a lot more to his SSL than just a current (budding?) affair.
{{{Penni}}}}
Last edited by SusieQ; 12/22/11 01:21 PM.
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Well, here's an update. After much discussion my H decided that he would open everything up to me and gave me all of his passwords. I snooped and snooped and found nothing. Things between us started to improve and he even agreed the POJA was a decent idea and we were practicing it. Things were going great.
Fast forward to March when my boss tells me that he and his wife are having issues and I need to do all of his travel that he had planned for the month. So, I have basically been out of town most of March.
Today, when I got home and my H was in the shower, I looked at the internet history on his phone and found that he was viewing porn. I wasn't sure if I should confront him or not but as I was looking at it he walked in and saw me so I told him what I found. This made him really mad and he has now locked everything back down, changed his emails passwords, etc.
I'm so frustrated, it seems like we just keep taking a step forward and then a step back. Maybe I shouldn't have confronted him about the porn.
I don't want him looking at porn but he insisted that he never did during our marriage until this month when I had to travel a bunch. It looks like I am going to have to do more traveling now. I know the answer is to find a new job - the thing is, I make significantly more than my husband and although he wouldn't admit it, I think financial support is high on his EN list. I think it will be difficult for me to find a job at similar pay without travel.
I'm frustrated and tired and I am looking for advice on what to address first.
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You haven't taken any steps forward, Penni. When he gave you the passwords, etc he obviously wasnt doing it to be transparent as evidenced by his anger at your catching him veiwing porn. And of course you should have confronted him. just because he threw a fit does not mean that was the wrong thing. What was wrong was his girly reaction. He is angry because he wants to hide things from you and you won't let him. It looks like I am going to have to do more traveling now. I know the answer is to find a new job - the thing is, I make significantly more than my husband and although he wouldn't admit it, I think financial support is high on his EN list. I think it will be difficult for me to find a job at similar pay without travel Do you think it would make any difference? If he is not going to cooperate in your marriage what would be the point? As long as he insists on keeping secrets from you, you will always be in danger. Your spouse had an affair and REFUSES to do the things necessary to recover your marriage. That is when Plan B is warranted.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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Can any posters tell me if there is a benefit to phone counseling or the online program if your spouse absolutely will not participate? I really ruined it for him a long time ago by DJing him in the name of MBs when I was first learning it.
At one point when we almost separated, he did do a few calls with Steve and liked him but quit after Steve had to reschedule us for the next day and was then a few hours late in calling. My H found it disrespectful and used it as an excuse to never talk to Steve again.
He did say he'd do in-person counseling but I have no idea how to find a local counselor that is good with MB but that won't overuse the terms with my H.
When my H feels like I have disrespected him even a little, he punishes me back 10 fold. He has actually told me that his strategy is to respond to things I do that he doesn't like with a huge negative reaction (e.g., silent treatment, spending the evening getting drunk by himself at the bar, etc.) so that I will never do it again. He is "teaching me a lesson."
I kind of feel like he might be the electric fence personality that Dr. Harley talks about.
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FWW/BW (me)
WH
2nd M for both
Blended Family with 7 kids between us
Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.
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Thanks Brain, I read it a long time ago but it seems like helpful information has been added.
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Do you always dismiss his complaints? It is pretty disrespectful to get put off a day and then not get called on-time. Your husband may be using this as an excuse. Or he may genuinely be put off by what happened. Don't DJ him by suggesting you know your husband's motives. After all, do you want your husband to assume he knows your motives? Probably not. I'd approach this another way. Take what your husband says at face value. Ask him what would make him enthusiastic about working with Steve again. Would he consider Jennifer instead of Steve? If the call was rescheduled and then was late by two hours, I think your husband has a serious complaint that Steve needs to work to address to their mutual satisfaction. I wouldn't discount what your husband is saying. As you said, your husband seemed to enjoy his work with Steve at first. I would be seriously put off if someone did that to me, FWIW. Can any posters tell me if there is a benefit to phone counseling or the online program if your spouse absolutely will not participate? I really ruined it for him a long time ago by DJing him in the name of MBs when I was first learning it.
At one point when we almost separated, he did do a few calls with Steve and liked him but quit after Steve had to reschedule us for the next day and was then a few hours late in calling. My H found it disrespectful and used it as an excuse to never talk to Steve again.
He did say he'd do in-person counseling but I have no idea how to find a local counselor that is good with MB but that won't overuse the terms with my H.
When my H feels like I have disrespected him even a little, he punishes me back 10 fold. He has actually told me that his strategy is to respond to things I do that he doesn't like with a huge negative reaction (e.g., silent treatment, spending the evening getting drunk by himself at the bar, etc.) so that I will never do it again. He is "teaching me a lesson."
I kind of feel like he might be the electric fence personality that Dr. Harley talks about.
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Good comments, thanks EE. Thanks for the observation that I was dismissing him, I need to be called out on that stuff, I do it without noticing.
I agree, it was frustrating and a valid complaint. My frustration is that I would really like to do MB style counseling but after that experience my H has written off everything MB. I have asked him what is needed to make him enthusiastic about it and he won't negotiate, he just says it's not happening but that he would go to a non-MB counselor face-to-face.
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I have asked him what is needed to make him enthusiastic about it and he won't negotiate, he just says it's not happening but that he would go to a non-MB counselor face-to-face. Are you enthusiastic about that?
FWW/BW (me)
WH
2nd M for both
Blended Family with 7 kids between us
Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.
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No, and that's where we are stuck. He wants anything but MB and I want MB. I have not figured out a way to get us past that.
Honestly, I think if I found a face-to-face person who uses MB but didn't ask my husband to read a book or POJA right away, he'd be okay with it. But, it feels a little weird to start calling counselors and saying, "Do you use MB? Are you good at it?"
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Weird? If it helps save your marriage isn't worth it? Begin by calling one clinic at a time, asking the receptionist to speak to the counselor you are considering by telephone. There should be no charge for this preliminary interview. You should ask the counselor some of the following questions:
* How many years have you been a counselor?
* What are your credentials (e.g. academic degree)?
* Do you help your clients avoid some of the emotional hazards of marital adjustment?
* Do you help motivate your clients to complete the program successfully?
* Do you suggest strategies to solve your clients' marital problems?
FWW/BW (me)
WH
2nd M for both
Blended Family with 7 kids between us
Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.
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Also this. You may wish to add other relevant questions. You may also try to let the counselor know what type of marital problem you have. After going through this site, you'll probably have more insight regarding your problem than counselors are accustomed to hearing. Use that insight to discover if the counselor has the background and skill to help you with your particular problem.
I would highly recommend that you ask if the counselor is presently using my books,His Needs, Her Need, and Love Busters. If they are not using these books,ask if they'd be willing to use them when counseling with you. While this may seem like a marketing ploy on my part, the reason I would like you to take my materials with you is that I'd like you to stick to the program I've recommended. There are many ineffective marriage counseling methods being used these days and I think you'd be more comfortable with a counselor who uses my direct method of dealing with the problem. Counselors that only sit and listen to couples complain should be avoided at all costs!
FWW/BW (me)
WH
2nd M for both
Blended Family with 7 kids between us
Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.
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I really ruined it for him a long time ago by DJing him in the name of MBs when I was first learning it. Your H has a long history of engaging in behaviors that are destructive to M, to the point that Dr Harley has told you not to have children with this man unless these problems are resolved. You didn't ruin this by DJing him about MB. He has maitained a SSL as long as you have posted here and has flat-out rejected POJA (through his words & actions). This is the type of person who is not going to want to implement MB. We see this on the boards over and over and over again with waywards who do not want to change... I know that you posted back in March that he "agreed POJA was a good idea" but in that same post you said that he was viewing porn and that he changed all of his passwords when you confronted him about it. This is a good example of ignoring what a person says and looking at their actions. His actions do not back up his words that he thinks "POJA is a good idea". I don't think this is as complicated as you DJ'ing your H to do some of these things or that he has electric fence personality, etc. It is pretty simple, he is a manipulator, a deceiver and a gaslighter (ex, telling you that you are needy when you tell him you need your ENs met or calling you paranoid or jealous etc). Counseling with this type of person is going to be a complete disaster so I wouldn't go down that route unless the counselor is 100% on board with MB principals but my guess is if they are, that he will find a reason to reject that counselor anyway. Sorry to be harsh but you have been posting here for quite a while without any improvement and your posts are full of red flags of someone who has been gaslighted.
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You should listen to what Susie has been telling you consistently in this thread about your H's SSL, and you should dismiss the post about his "valid complaint" about Steve being late with the call. If he thought that what Steve said was that good, he would not use the lateness of a call as an excuse never again to have anything more to do with MB. He is using Steve's lateness as an excuse not to do MB, not to use POJA and not to change his behaviour and consider your feelings. He is hoping that you can find a non-MB counsellor who will validate his feelings and help you to communicate your desires to each other as a couple, right to the point where you learn to accept that you are the one with the problem and that you need to be respectful of your H's destructive behaviour. Remember that you also wrote about his consulting Steve: MB, that sounds very familiar. He has a really hard time dealing with conflict and he likes to shut it down as quickly as possible. POJA is very difficult with him if it is around something he has strong feelings about. He moves to being defensive instantly and once he has decided on a course of action (even if I don't agree with it), finds it very difficult to deviate.
He is somewhat familiar with MB concepts. I have gotten him to read the basic concepts and he even filled out the questionnaires a long time ago. I even got him to speak to Steve once more recently, and he said that Steve said a lot of things that made sense, but refused to talk to him again because he thinks therapy is for people with serious problems (and i am the one with the problem). In general, he thinks that MB is too "cookie cutter" to work and that it requires him to give up part of himself. The part of himself that he does not want to give up is his SSL. Susie is right; he is gaslighting you, big time.
BW
Married 1989
His PA 2003-2006
2 kids.
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Okay, so is it gas lighting if he seems to sort of flip back and forth between wanting his SSL and wanting to fix our marriage? It feels like I get glimmers of hope and then they fade away, is that all part of gas lighting?
I had a break down this morning. A million things have piled up over the past two weeks and this was the straw that broke the camel's back. I was doing bills before he left for work and saw that in the past 5 days he has spent $160 on lunches and asked him about it. He said it was because the lunch area is being renovated so he has had to eat out, which is fine, but I there are plenty of places near his work that wouldn't cost that much for lunch. Instead he chooses the nicest restaurant in the area and has a beer with lunch (I have the receipts so he isn't buying other people lunch). We aren't broke but we aren't rolling in the dough either.
I said, "is there a way that you could spend less on lunches while this is happening? Can I get you things you could eat at your desk, could you take a cooler, could you go to Subway, or some other option?"
He went into this sarcastic tangent saying, "Oh we're sooo broke we can't afford for me to spend $30 on lunch for two weeks or else the world will end."
Tears started running down my face because I am at the end of my fuse and I said, "I am so tired of having to argue with you to get you to even consider another option. I am not trying to ruin your life. Why can't we just have a discussion? I'm so over this." Something flipped in him and he immediately felt bad and started saying, "I'm sorry, I know I have a lot to work on, I know you are the most important thing in my life and I need to treat you like that, I'm sorry." I said, "I don't want to have to cry to get you to change your approach." He was like, "I know, I know, I really need to change this."
If only I could turn that into him giving MB another shot.
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I feel for you Penni - your desire to have him want to be a better man is palpable...and tragic.
You can't place too much store by these isolated incidents, though, and they do not counteract the prevailing narrative presented on your thread.
He says he needs to change things, but is unwilling to actually commit to a plan to help him do so.
You cannot force him to be a better husband to you, or bring it about by sheer will.
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Him apologizing immediately is his way to continue to gaslig This article might help you make a decision: When to Call It Quits - Part 1 In addition to this excellent article here are some excellent radio clips on this. Please listen to these radio clips on what are the reasons for divorce. Radio clip at 5:45 When to call it quits Segment #2
FWW/BW (me)
WH
2nd M for both
Blended Family with 7 kids between us
Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.
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Brain, yes, people have posted the when to call it quits article to me a lot. Steve Harley told me that he thought if my H continued down his same path, I'd eventually want a divorce, but I am not there yet. Although there are many issues, our UA time is often great. When we go away together or have a day of fun planned, it's pure bliss. It's the day to day life decisions that are really frustrating. I think I am blessed/cursed with the ability to not hold a grudge so even if Monday was terrible, I can enjoy Tuesday with my hubby. Sometimes I wish I could stay mad for long enough to really get his attention. It's just not in my nature.
Early on, I used to threaten to end things but I could never follow through. At some point, I vowed to not threaten it until I was really, really sure I was done. I'm not done at this point.
Kerala, thanks for your post. You know, in all other areas of my life my perseverance suits me well, my career is really good because of it. But, you have triggered a thought for me. Maybe I can just point out the fact that he says he wants to change but he isn't taking any steps to change. It seems obvious but we haven't verbalized it.
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If you've threatened to end things and never did he doesn't take you seriously and still doesn't.
When someone has no consequences to their actions they don't learn and don't change.
He has no reason to believe you're serious.
Do you not believe you deserve to have a fantastic marriage?
FWW/BW (me)
WH
2nd M for both
Blended Family with 7 kids between us
Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.
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You should listen to this radio clip the BW is pregnant and her WH's OW is pregnant. The BW and WH do not live together. Dr. Harley says if both spouses are on board with MB in 35+ years it has always worked. If both aren't on board it will not work. Radio clip
FWW/BW (me)
WH
2nd M for both
Blended Family with 7 kids between us
Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.
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Yes, I believe I deserve a fantastic marriage but I also believe in avoiding divorce. If I do what is suggested in the when to call it quits article, it means there is a possibility of divorce, I'd have to follow through if he didn't agree to my terms. He is so averse to feeling pushed into something or threatened that I am 95% certain that if I did it, he would divorce me. He'd regret it later, but he would do it. I am not ready to follow through on divorce right now, but I am getting closer.
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You should listen to this radio clip the BW is pregnant and her WH's OW is pregnant. The BW and WH do not live together. Dr. Harley says if both spouses are on board with MB in 35+ years it has always worked. If both aren't on board it will not work. Radio clipThanks Brain. My H really wants us to start trying to have a child and I can't do it until we have fixed this stuff. Maybe that is my point of leverage.
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Yes, I believe I deserve a fantastic marriage but I also believe in avoiding divorce. If I do what is suggested in the when to call it quits article, it means there is a possibility of divorce, I'd have to follow through if he didn't agree to my terms. He is so averse to feeling pushed into something or threatened that I am 95% certain that if I did it, he would divorce me. He'd regret it later, but he would do it. I am not ready to follow through on divorce right now, but I am getting closer. So how long are you willing to put up with this? Do you have a date set? Are you on BC to avoid getting pregnant? Especially after what Dr. H told you?
FWW/BW (me)
WH
2nd M for both
Blended Family with 7 kids between us
Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.
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I am on BC.
I really want to have kids too but am not willing under these conditions. That should be my motivation for figuring this out, I am in my early 30's, I am no spring chicken.
So, here is my plan. He has to get on board by the end of the summer and he has to be really making changes by January 1 or I am going to need to end it. That would still allow be enough time to meet someone else and have a child in my late 30s.
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To not T/J the other thread. Here's another clip on IB. Radio clip on IB
FWW/BW (me)
WH
2nd M for both
Blended Family with 7 kids between us
Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.
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FWW/BW (me)
WH
2nd M for both
Blended Family with 7 kids between us
Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.
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Thanks, Brain.
To be clear, I probably do some SDs and DJs when the AOs begin. I have been trying really hard to follow Dr. Harley's advice for the right way to complain. It can be difficult when I feel like the IB is really dangerous.
For example, during the last issue we had, my H was meeting a friend at a bar 25 miles away and I didn't want him to drink and drive home (he has a history of drinking a lot with this friend). I was trying to negotiate and suggested going with him, shopping at a nearby mall so that I could drive, or getting us a hotel room next door. He just wanted to drive by himself and I felt like I couldn't morally accept that so I started to make SDs which resulted in an AO on his part. I did end up driving him and picking him up, but it was followed with two days of him being mad at me. I forced him into it, but how could I not? What if I didn't and he got into an accident and hurt himself or someone else?
Another example is that a 22 year old girlfriend of one of his friend's at work has been texting my H. I requested that when she texts, my H texts his friend instead. Recently she texted and told my H that she got tickets to a show for all of us and I asked my H to text her boyfriend (his friend) about it instead. He said that was a ridiculous request, she is his friend and he will do whatever he wants. So, I said, if you aren't going to consider my request then I will call her and tell her not to text you anymore. That made him really mad because it would be embarrassing for him (and admiration is his number 1 EN) and he AOed me out of it. I struggled with that because he wasn't following the POJA, so why should I?
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I wish my H would post on here because I am afraid that I paint a negative picture of him and that if you heard his perspective, you'd give us more balanced advice. My history of SDs and DJs make him afraid of POJA. He thinks that if we agreed to POJA, he would never do anything that he enjoys ever again.
As I was listening to the clips Brain posted one of the things I realized is that my H does meet my ENs, he just also engages in LBs. So, I am in love with him which is why it makes it difficult for me to do plan B.
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Penni, your husband is not on board with POJA, so he is not going to take your feelings into account. What SHOULD have happened is he should have done nothing until a solution was found that would make you both happy. But he has shown over and over and over again that he is not interested in doing that. All you can do is tell him you're not enthusiastic. You cannot force him to take your feelings into account, or to negotiate. He's not interested. He said that was a ridiculous request, she is his friend and he will do whatever he wants.  I would seriously suspect an affair. If it's not an affair, he's primed for one.
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I wish my H would post on here because I am afraid that I paint a negative picture of him and that if you heard his perspective, you'd give us more balanced advice. My history of SDs and DJs make him afraid of POJA. He thinks that if we agreed to POJA, he would never do anything that he enjoys ever again. What he's afraid of is giving up control and being forced to be considerate. For the record, POJA doesn't apply in situations where health or life is at stake. It also doesn't apply when it comes to EPs, which your husband is breaking.
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Another example is that a 22 year old girlfriend of one of his friend's at work has been texting my H. I requested that when she texts, my H texts his friend instead. Recently she texted and told my H that she got tickets to a show for all of us and I asked my H to text her boyfriend (his friend) about it instead. He said that was a ridiculous request, she is his friend and he will do whatever he wants. So, I said, if you aren't going to consider my request then I will call her and tell her not to text you anymore. That made him really mad because it would be embarrassing for him (and admiration is his number 1 EN) and he AOed me out of it. I struggled with that because he wasn't following the POJA, so why should I? We have had this conversation already. Your H is a wayward. EPs aren't negotiated or subject to POJA. You turn this into a discussion about POJA to make excuses for your H. Your H has already engaged in EAs and here he is still acting inapprorpiately with other women while gaslighting you into believing you are the one with a problem. This is very hard to watch!
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I would seriously suspect an affair. If it's not an affair, he's primed for one. You said you were going to put a keylogger on your H's laptop and cell a few months back. Did you ever do this?
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Prisca, yes, I think it's possible that he could have one given his IB and difficulty with POJA. I snoop like crazy, though, I have a key logger, spyware on his phone, and can track his location from his phone and he has no idea. If something ever happens, I'll know.
It's funny, he always tells me he wishes I wouldn't check his email or look at his phone, but the way he could stop me from doing that is by being more open. It's like a Chinese finger trap, the more he closes things off because he thinks I should trust him, the less I trust him.
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He said that was a ridiculous request, she is his friend and he will do whatever he wants. This is a deal breaker.
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If something ever happens, I'll know. Texting is "something."
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If something ever happens, I'll know. Texting is "something." So far, she texts when she is trying to make plans with us for a double date so that doesn't sound like an EA to me but given his past EA, I don't want them to text at all. I really don't enjoy this couple much anyway, the guy and my H have some things in common but the girl and I have nothing in common.
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Markos tells me that he's heard Dr. Harley says if you want to have a romantic relationship with a woman, become somebody she texts with.
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If something ever happens, I'll know. Texting is "something." So far, she texts when she is trying to make plans with us for a double date so that doesn't sound like an EA to me but given his past EA, I don't want them to text at all. I really don't enjoy this couple much anyway, the guy and my H have some things in common but the girl and I have nothing in common. Given his past EA AND his reaction when you told him you didn't want him to text her makes this a deal breaker.
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My history of SDs and DJs make him afraid of POJA. Please, Penni, don't take responsibility for his bad behavior. His angry outbursts are ABUSE. He is the cause of them, not you. He is not "afraid to POJA." He just doesn't care about you and doesn't want to have what he wants interfered with by your desires. He just doesn't want to live like a married man. All he needs to do is NOT do things that you are unenthusiastic about. How can he be "scared" to do that? If you are disrespectful and demanding he might be scared to talk to you or something, but you don't have to talk to NOT do something that is offensive to your spouse. You just DON'T DO IT. There are no negative consequences from your spouse for STOPPING offensive behavior. Nobody ever love busted their spouse for NOT doing things that are offensive.
If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app! Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8. Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010 If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
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Markos tells me that he's heard Dr. Harley says if you want to have a romantic relationship with a woman, become somebody she texts with. Yep, I agree, that's why I want it to stop now. My H thinks it's his "right" to be friends with whomever he chooses and when I say he shouldn't because it upsets me, he says that I need to learn to not be upset by things that are "normal". He says that unless he has a physical affair with someone, I have no "right" to restrict his friendships. I am much pickier about friends and don't like some of his friends that encourage IBs, so he seems me as a hermit.
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He said that was a ridiculous request, she is his friend and he will do whatever he wants. "He will do whatever he wants" = he does not care about you. "He will do whatever he wants" = he does not want to be married. "He will do whatever he wants" = this is not a marriage.
If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app! Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8. Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010 If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
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I would look him right in the eye and say to him, "Listen Buster, do you love me? Do you care at all about how I feel? If you do, you sure have a funny way of showing it! I love you and want to spend the rest of my life with you. But it sure will be unpleasant for both of us if you keep treating me this way. You are not doing things that I admire, you're doing things that I find disgusting!"
If he says, "Fine, then lets just get a divorce and end it all."
To that I would say, "It's up to you. I married you for life, but if you want a divorce, it's your call. If you want to be in a love relationship with me, however, you're going to have to treat me much better than you have been treating me. From this moment on you will never again bring up my affair, and if you are upset with me, you will have to treat me with respect until we can solve the problem. I will agree to do the same with you. If you are upset with our sexual relationship, I want us to discuss it as adults and solve it with mutual respect. I refuse to be treated like this, even by the man I love."
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My history of SDs and DJs make him afraid of POJA. Please, Penni, don't take responsibility for his bad behavior. His angry outbursts are ABUSE. He is the cause of them, not you. He is not "afraid to POJA." He just doesn't care about you and doesn't want to have what he wants interfered with by your desires. He just doesn't want to live like a married man. All he needs to do is NOT do things that you are unenthusiastic about. How can he be "scared" to do that? If you are disrespectful and demanding he might be scared to talk to you or something, but you don't have to talk to NOT do something that is offensive to your spouse. You just DON'T DO IT. There are no negative consequences from your spouse for STOPPING offensive behavior. Nobody ever love busted their spouse for NOT doing things that are offensive. Really well put, Marcos, thanks. This has definitely given me a different perspective.
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My H thinks it's his "right" to be friends with whomever he chooses and when I say he shouldn't because it upsets me, he says that I need to learn to not be upset by things that are "normal". It is YOUR right for your husband to not live like a single man. Single men can do whatever they want. Married people have to actually be different from single people in some way. They cannot have everything they want or believe is their "right."
If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app! Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8. Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010 If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
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If something ever happens, I'll know. Texting is "something." So far, she texts when she is trying to make plans with us for a double date so that doesn't sound like an EA to me but given his past EA, I don't want them to text at all. I really don't enjoy this couple much anyway, the guy and my H have some things in common but the girl and I have nothing in common. Why would he arrange double dates with someone you don't even want to be with? Who has time for double dates when you want to recover your marriage???
If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app! Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8. Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010 If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
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If something ever happens, I'll know. Texting is "something." So far, she texts when she is trying to make plans with us for a double date so that doesn't sound like an EA to me but given his past EA, I don't want them to text at all. I really don't enjoy this couple much anyway, the guy and my H have some things in common but the girl and I have nothing in common. Why would he arrange double dates with someone you don't even want to be with? Who has time for double dates when you want to recover your marriage??? Because he likes them and thinks I should, too. Also, because he thinks we don't have enough friends so spending time with ones I don't care much for is better than not spending time with friends in his mind.
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Markos tells me that he's heard Dr. Harley says if you want to have a romantic relationship with a woman, become somebody she texts with. Yep, I agree, that's why I want it to stop now. How are you going to draw the line? Right now, he's going to do whatever he wants because he knows he can.
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Another example is that a 22 year old girlfriend of one of his friend's at work has been texting my H. I requested that when she texts, my H texts his friend instead. Recently she texted and told my H that she got tickets to a show for all of us and I asked my H to text her boyfriend (his friend) about it instead. He said that was a ridiculous request, she is his friend and he will do whatever he wants. So, I said, if you aren't going to consider my request then I will call her and tell her not to text you anymore. That made him really mad because it would be embarrassing for him (and admiration is his number 1 EN) and he AOed me out of it. I struggled with that because he wasn't following the POJA, so why should I? We have had this conversation already. Your H is a wayward. EPs aren't negotiated or subject to POJA. You turn this into a discussion about POJA to make excuses for your H. Your H has already engaged in EAs and here he is still acting inapprorpiately with other women while gaslighting you into believing you are the one with a problem. This is very hard to watch! Penni, please listen to Susie and to Prisca. Susie is right; this is hard to watch. You should not be enthusiastic about even negotiating a modification to Extraordinary Precautions. Therefore, by the POJA, negotiation should not even occur on this subject. And no baloney about how scared he is to POJA because of SDs and DJs. There don't need to be any DJs for him to STOP PUSHING THE BOUNDARIES and KNOCK OFF THIS CRAP THAT IS HURTFUL AND OFFENSIVE TO YOU.
If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app! Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8. Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010 If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
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Your marriage COULD be easily repaired, IF he were to put some work into it.
But he's not interested in that, is he Penni?
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Any time someone posts in MB101 and tries to skirt over the fact that there was an A that was swept under the rug it concerns me that there is denial going on.
Talking on MB101 about your lovebusters & POJA for the last 1.5+ years when your WH won't even implement basic EPs?
Telling us that you wish we could hear your H's perspective on POJA etc when he is texting with other women and basically gaslights you when you ask him to stop?
Penni, you are in denial here!
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So far, she texts when she is trying to make plans with us for a double date so that doesn't sound like an EA to me but given his past EA, I don't want them to text at all. I really don't enjoy this couple much anyway, the guy and my H have some things in common but the girl and I have nothing in common. Why would he arrange double dates with someone you don't even want to be with? Who has time for double dates when you want to recover your marriage??? Because he likes them and thinks I should, too. Also, because he thinks we don't have enough friends so spending time with ones I don't care much for is better than not spending time with friends in his mind. But you should not capitulate and do things you are not enthusiastic about. Dr. Harley says you shouldn't have outside recreational activities until you are following the policy of undivided attention and are each other's favorite recreational companion. Neither of these is true yet, so you simply say "I'm not going on these double dates." Then follow up with the "listen, buster" quote from Dr. Harley that Prisca posted.
If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app! Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8. Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010 If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
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I wish my H would post on here because I am afraid that I paint a negative picture of him and that if you heard his perspective, you'd give us more balanced advice. My history of SDs and DJs make him afraid of POJA. He is not afraid to POJA, and he does not need to post here for us to understand. He is unwilling to follow the policy of joint agreement because he does not care about you and does not want to have to take your feelings into account. It's as simple as that. The policy of joint agreement is not some arbitrary rule Dr. Harley made up. It's what caring husbands and wives do for each other. When Dr. Harley studied successful, caring marriages where romantic love was sustained, he found that this was the way they lived. The Policy of Joint Agreement is simply a reminder or formula to help us be caring and thoughtful even when our instincts and emotions are prompting us to do otherwise. We can develop the habit of checking our actions against the POJA to find out if we are being thoughtful for not. "Caring" and "thoughtful" actions follow the POJA, and actions that do not meet the policy are thoughtless and uncaring. No matter what he could say if he posted here, the fact remains that if he wants to care about you, this is how to do it: KNOCK IT OFF. He may wish things were different, he may wish it didn't require as much of him, but this is what "care" means.
If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app! Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8. Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010 If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
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Your marriage COULD be easily repaired, IF he were to put some work into it.
But he's not interested in that, is he Penni? He wants things to improve but he seems to frame the problems as 100% my fault. Basically, if I could stop being upset about things he does, everything would be fine. When we talked to Steve Harley, Steve said to him, "The only way I can think of for that to happen is for your wife to love you less, is that what you want?" That really hit home with my H in the moment but since then I have tried to bring that up and he gas lights me. Sometimes I think his difficulty in admitting he is part of the problem is linked to his extreme need for admiration (is that a DJ?). He really doesn't like to look bad or admit faults. It's hard to try to convince your husband that he is at least half of the problem without DJing the heck out of him. If I could get him to do the online program or talk to Steve, it would be a lot easier. As part of plan A, I am trying to lose some weight and get back in shape. I have gained about 10 pounds since we got married and he doesn't seem to be as attracted to me (but our sex life is still good). I think physical attractiveness is probably his 2nd highest EN.
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I would look him right in the eye and say to him, "Listen Buster, do you love me? Do you care at all about how I feel? If you do, you sure have a funny way of showing it! I love you and want to spend the rest of my life with you. But it sure will be unpleasant for both of us if you keep treating me this way. You are not doing things that I admire, you're doing things that I find disgusting!"
If he says, "Fine, then lets just get a divorce and end it all."
To that I would say, "It's up to you. I married you for life, but if you want a divorce, it's your call. If you want to be in a love relationship with me, however, you're going to have to treat me much better than you have been treating me. From this moment on you will never again bring up my affair, and if you are upset with me, you will have to treat me with respect until we can solve the problem. I will agree to do the same with you. If you are upset with our sexual relationship, I want us to discuss it as adults and solve it with mutual respect. I refuse to be treated like this, even by the man I love." This is good, thanks Prisca!
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Your marriage COULD be easily repaired, IF he were to put some work into it.
But he's not interested in that, is he Penni? He wants things to improve but he seems to frame the problems as 100% my fault. Basically, if I could stop being upset about things he does, everything would be fine. Penni, this is extremely typical for husbands. Most husbands mistakenly think the problem is that their wife should just feel different. The insight of Marriage Builders is that husbands and wives cause each other's feelings. If he wants you to feel different, he shouldn't just tell you to do so, he should change what he is doing. He's not willing to do that, so you'll never feel any better. Even after 2 1/2 years of marriage builders, I still frequently fall into thinking "My wife should feel different, the problem is she is seeing this wrong, etc."
If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app! Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8. Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010 If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
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Your marriage COULD be easily repaired, IF he were to put some work into it.
But he's not interested in that, is he Penni? He wants things to improve but he seems to frame the problems as 100% my fault. Then he's not really interested in putting any effort into making your marriage work.
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Any time someone posts in MB101 and tries to skirt over the fact that there was an A that was swept under the rug it concerns me that there is denial going on.
Talking on MB101 about your lovebusters & POJA for the last 1.5+ years when your WH won't even implement basic EPs?
Telling us that you wish we could hear your H's perspective on POJA etc when he is texting with other women and basically gaslights you when you ask him to stop?
Penni, you are in denial here! I'm not in denial, I see that there is a big problem but I also feel this heavy weight to exhaust myself trying to fix it before considering divorce. Also, he meets my top ENs well so that makes it more difficult for me to throw my hands up and leave.
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Even after 2 1/2 years of marriage builders, I still frequently fall into thinking "My wife should feel different, the problem is she is seeing this wrong, etc." The difference, Markos, is that you're willing to change your thinking. You're willing to protect your marriage.
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I wish my H would post on here because I am afraid that I paint a negative picture of him and that if you heard his perspective, you'd give us more balanced advice. My history of SDs and DJs make him afraid of POJA. He is not afraid to POJA, and he does not need to post here for us to understand. He is unwilling to follow the policy of joint agreement because he does not care about you and does not want to have to take your feelings into account. It's as simple as that. The policy of joint agreement is not some arbitrary rule Dr. Harley made up. It's what caring husbands and wives do for each other. When Dr. Harley studied successful, caring marriages where romantic love was sustained, he found that this was the way they lived. The Policy of Joint Agreement is simply a reminder or formula to help us be caring and thoughtful even when our instincts and emotions are prompting us to do otherwise. We can develop the habit of checking our actions against the POJA to find out if we are being thoughtful for not. "Caring" and "thoughtful" actions follow the POJA, and actions that do not meet the policy are thoughtless and uncaring. No matter what he could say if he posted here, the fact remains that if he wants to care about you, this is how to do it: KNOCK IT OFF. He may wish things were different, he may wish it didn't require as much of him, but this is what "care" means. No amount of practicing Marriage Builders principles on your end will win your husband over to practicing these principles. Dr. Harley encourages husbands to push and push for this but says that wives have little success doing so. They can't take a "Love Dare" style approach where they win their husbands over and the husbands suddenly miraculously become willing to follow the principles of care. So he encourages wives to try for 3-4 weeks and then to separate for their own health and sanity, instead of being gaslit and abused for years. Women who stick around for that kind of thing suffer all kinds of problems including compromised immune systems and post traumatic stress disorder.
If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app! Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8. Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010 If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
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Even after 2 1/2 years of marriage builders, I still frequently fall into thinking "My wife should feel different, the problem is she is seeing this wrong, etc." The difference, Markos, is that you're willing to change your thinking. You're willing to protect your marriage. And when I don't, my wife lays it on the line and says "Listen, Buster, if you love me and want me to love you, this behavior is not going to work."
If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app! Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8. Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010 If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
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Even after 2 1/2 years of marriage builders, I still frequently fall into thinking "My wife should feel different, the problem is she is seeing this wrong, etc." The difference, Markos, is that you're willing to change your thinking. You're willing to protect your marriage. I think that's it - if I could just get him to see this, things would start getting better.
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I'm not in denial, I see that there is a big problem but I also feel this heavy weight to exhaust myself trying to fix it before considering divorce. It's been 1.5+ years. Dr. Harley advises 3-4 weeks.
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From Page 1 of this thread (emphasis mine): Penni, the POJA is for marriages in recovery. Yours is not. Besides, you just said your husband doesnt accept POJA. Telling this woman will not harm your marriage at all. It might make your husband mad but that is not harmful to your marriage. Her need to know far supersedes your husbands irritation. I would tell her since this is information about her life that she needs to know. Mel, can you explain what recovery looks like? He hasn't had contact with those women in a long time. He admitted that the contact he was having with his ex-girlfriend wasn't appropriate. And, I have full access to his email and phone records. You say we can't follow the POJA until we are in recovery, so what else is needed? Penni, he would need to give up his independent lifestyle. For example, his going out with his friends is bad for your marriage. It is also bad for your marriage for YOU to do the same in response to him.
Has he agreed to give up his opposite sex friendships?
In order for a marriage to work, both partners have to be willing to adopt the POJA. Your marriage has been a renters relationship. See how smart Mel is? She nailed this on Page 1. And interestingly enough, you tried to skim over the point and never answered the question and now we see why, because your H never agreed to give up opposite sex friendships and I think you know that he never will. You keep making excuses for your H and muddying the waters by talking about your own lovebusters and why your H is reluctant to POJA. A WS who will not implement basic EPs after having an affair is not going to follow the rest of the program. This is no accident, Penni. We do you no favors by allowing you to continue in denial...
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Your marriage COULD be easily repaired, IF he were to put some work into it.
But he's not interested in that, is he Penni? He wants things to improve but he seems to frame the problems as 100% my fault. It works, too. You are here posting that you have made him afraid to POJA by your own mistakes, instead of there following Dr. Harley's advice and telling him that you will not continue to tolerate this.
If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app! Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8. Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010 If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
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Even after 2 1/2 years of marriage builders, I still frequently fall into thinking "My wife should feel different, the problem is she is seeing this wrong, etc." The difference, Markos, is that you're willing to change your thinking. You're willing to protect your marriage. I think that's it - if I could just get him to see this, things would start getting better. You're not going to be able to get him to see this, though. He's NOT WILLING to see it. He has no reason to. It's been 1.5+ years. He's not going to see it without some drastic steps from you.
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Even after 2 1/2 years of marriage builders, I still frequently fall into thinking "My wife should feel different, the problem is she is seeing this wrong, etc." The difference, Markos, is that you're willing to change your thinking. You're willing to protect your marriage. I think that's it - if I could just get him to see this, things would start getting better. You can't get him to see this. The problem is that you are trying to work the program for him, you are trying to teach him, you are trying to educate him, you are trying to carry his end as well as yours. In complete contradiction to what Dr. Harley would advise. And it doesn't work. It simply cannot work. No matter how much longer you stick at it, it doesn't work.
If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app! Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8. Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010 If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
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I'm not in denial, I see that there is a big problem but I also feel this heavy weight to exhaust myself trying to fix it before considering divorce. It's been 1.5+ years. Dr. Harley advises 3-4 weeks.I know. It seems like it comes in waves, it's not bad all of the time. We go through phases when we are super happy and don't fight at all but when a threat is introduced like the 22 year old girl, everything goes downhill.
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A WS who will not implement basic EPs after having an affair is not going to follow the rest of the program. This is no accident, Penni. QFT!
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I'm not in denial, I see that there is a big problem but I also feel this heavy weight to exhaust myself trying to fix it before considering divorce. It's been 1.5+ years. Dr. Harley advises 3-4 weeks.I know. It seems like it comes in waves, it's not bad all of the time. We go through phases when we are super happy and don't fight at all but when a threat is introduced like the 22 year old girl, everything goes downhill. Because he WILL NOT adopt basic EPs. He WILL NOT follow the program. It's time to stop trying to fix it, Penni. The ONLY thing that has any possibility of getting through to him is for you to finally stand up for yourself and kick his butt to the curb.
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Okay, the next step in my plan will be to really stick to making thoughtful requests and never using SDs and DJs. About half of the time I SD him out of doing something I don't want him to do. This will mean he will do more stuff that will kill my love for him which will make it easier for us to separate.
When we were talking to Steve and then my H stopped, I had a call with Steve saying I wanted to plan A/plan B but didn't feel strong enough. Steve advised me to stop spending UA time with my husband and start doing more things away from my him so that my attachment to him could wear down enough that I could do it.
We didn't have another appointment again after that and I never did it. It's probably time.
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I would expect someone in your situation with your WH, after finding this website to have posted in SAA explaining that my WH had XXX relationships with XXX women and these are the parts of the plan of recovery that he had not followed...ie, to give up opposite sex friendships or he had not agreed to be 100% transparent, etc. Sweeping the As and the lack of EPs under the rug to talk about SDs, DJs and lack of POJA is most definitely a form of denial.
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I would expect someone in your situation with your WH, after finding this website to have posted in SAA explaining that my WH had XXX relationships with XXX women and these are the parts of the plan of recovery that he had not followed...ie, to give up opposite sex friendships or he had not agreed to be 100% transparent, etc. Sweeping the As and the lack of EPs under the rug to talk about SDs, DJs and lack of POJA is most definitely a form of denial. Okay, I guess because the EAs were mostly the other women pursuing him I didn't view it as something that was alarming enough to post in SAA. I do agree that he needs to put EPs in place, though. But, if I even hint at calling them EAs his admiration alarm goes off and an AO ensues. I once asked him what he thought was appropriate for EPs. He said, if a woman tries to kiss him he should stop her. He also thinks that regular lunches alone with another women, talking on the phone with another women regularly while I am not around, or having drinks alone with another woman more than once is unacceptable. He also thinks sexual comments are unacceptable. He thought that giving each other back rubs at work was fine but after a lot of talking he agreed to not do that. That was about as far as we got.
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Start preparing for Plan B now. Plan A is to give your husband "unconditional love" for a brief period of time, usually a month. I know. I've just written two columns that warn against unconditional love. But I've never been opposed to its use if it's intended to prime the pump. One spouse can't save a marriage, but one spouse can often set an example that the other spouse will sometimes follow. Plan A is to avoid all Love Busters, and to meet the other spouse's emotional needs without expecting anything in return immediately. But it also involves communicating the importance of reciprocity. Along with being an angel, you also explain that you expect your needs to eventually be met, too.
But before you begin plan A, prepare for plan B, which is to completely separate from your husband. You can't simply move out of the bedroom. You must move from the house, or have him move. If you live in a state that supports legal separation, go to the trouble to see an attorney so that all financial and legal arrangements are made in advance. Be sure that you can support yourself for an extended period of time, such as a year.
Last edited by Prisca; 07/03/12 01:22 PM. Reason: added link
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Start preparing for Plan B now. This is not something you can put off.
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I would expect someone in your situation with your WH, after finding this website to have posted in SAA explaining that my WH had XXX relationships with XXX women and these are the parts of the plan of recovery that he had not followed...ie, to give up opposite sex friendships or he had not agreed to be 100% transparent, etc. Sweeping the As and the lack of EPs under the rug to talk about SDs, DJs and lack of POJA is most definitely a form of denial. Okay, I guess because the EAs were mostly the other women pursuing him I didn't view it as something that was alarming enough to post in SAA. I do agree that he needs to put EPs in place, though. But, if I even hint at calling them EAs his admiration alarm goes off and an AO ensues. The Policy of Joint Agreement gives you all that the two of you need to build a relationship with EPs. The POJA says it's enough that if you don't want him doing something, he can't do it. He won't follow that, because he does not care about you and your feelings. Even without reference to past EAs, the POJA still says he should not do things you are not enthusiastic about (like text female friends). If he is having angry outbursts, then you need to insist that he successfully complete anger management. I once asked him what he thought was appropriate for EPs. Why ask him? He knows nothing about keeping you safe. He needs to ask you what you are enthusiastic about, and not do anything you are not enthusiastic about.
If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app! Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8. Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010 If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
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I would expect someone in your situation with your WH, after finding this website to have posted in SAA explaining that my WH had XXX relationships with XXX women and these are the parts of the plan of recovery that he had not followed...ie, to give up opposite sex friendships or he had not agreed to be 100% transparent, etc. Sweeping the As and the lack of EPs under the rug to talk about SDs, DJs and lack of POJA is most definitely a form of denial. Okay, I guess because the EAs were mostly the other women pursuing him I didn't view it as something that was alarming enough to post in SAA. Penni, it makes no difference. Every wayward wants to claim that it was the other person pursuing them, and every betrayed spouse wants to think the best of their wayward husband or wife and think that the affair happened because of those nasty other women / men who pursued the innocent wayward husband or wife and wouldn't leave him or her alone. Almost every story posting in SAA is like this. The affairs happened because of his lack of boundaries with women, not because of the women. If it hadn't been those women, it would have been others. Please get your thread moved over to SAA and compare notes with the people there.
If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app! Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8. Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010 If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
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And interestingly enough, you tried to skim over the point and never answered the question and now we see why, because your H never agreed to give up opposite sex friendships and I think you know that he never will. Penni, you are doing it again. Instead of answering the question AGAIN, you give us a long winded answer about what your H thinks EPs mean. And he hasn't agreed to end opposite sex friendships and he won't, right?
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And interestingly enough, you tried to skim over the point and never answered the question and now we see why, because your H never agreed to give up opposite sex friendships and I think you know that he never will. Penni, you are doing it again. Instead of answering the question AGAIN, you give us a long winded answer about what your H thinks EPs mean. And he hasn't agreed to end opposite sex friendships and he won't, right? Right, he won't end opposite sex friendships altogether but he doesn't spend time with other women without me outside of work.
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There is no need to further discuss EPs if a WS refuses to end opposite sex friendships.
That would be like trying to discuss how to safely play chicken.
Last edited by SusieQ; 07/03/12 01:54 PM.
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It's hard for us to help you when you won't even acknowledge what the real problem is.
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Steve Harley knew about those EAs and he didn't start there, he started with POJA.
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Did you tell him that you never recovered after the EAs? Did he know that your H was still leading a SSL and that he was still maintaining opposite sex friendships? I bet he didn't...
He was adamant with me that he starts with EPs because without those the M is crippled and he sees it over and over and over again. I wrote about this in the EP thread.
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Why are you willing to put up with a WS who refuses to implement EPs and will instead gaslight you about it?
Your H knows d@amn well where this behavior (friendships with women) leads to, as he has been down that road before...he knows that it hurts you and he does it anyway. He has basically told you he refuses to change this unless you catch him doing something inappropriate.
Why are you willing to put up with such uncaring selfish behavior?
If he is unwilling to do something as simple as give up texting with some 22 year old girl that he should care nothing about, why would you expect him to make other more serious changes for your M?
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Steve Harley knew about those EAs and he didn't start there, he started with POJA. The only thing I can think is SH took some direction on you from this because my understanding from what he told me is that he would not start with POJA when the M is limping along after EAs and there are serious lovebusters (IB, dishonesty) being committed. I have done about 3-4 sessions with Steve and one with Jennifer at a different time, and we worked on EPs, then we were working on lovebusters & ENs, I don't even think we discussed POJA once. I think that *you* think if you could just get your WH to buy into the idea of POJA that the M would improve and you can just sweep these other issues under the rug.
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Markos tells me that he's heard Dr. Harley says if you want to have a romantic relationship with a woman, become somebody she texts with. Yes and here it is. Radio clip on texting your spouse
FWW/BW (me)
WH
2nd M for both
Blended Family with 7 kids between us
Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.
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Also please listen yo these clips where Dr. Harley tells the BW she's in denial. Radio clip on denial Segment #2 Segment #3
FWW/BW (me)
WH
2nd M for both
Blended Family with 7 kids between us
Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.
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Steve Harley knew about those EAs and he didn't start there, he started with POJA. Your husband has made it very clear that he is not interested in POJA.
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Penni, Okay, I guess because the EAs were mostly the other women pursuing him I didn't view it as something that was alarming enough to post in SAA. The only person that has promised to keep his vows to you is your husband. The only person that has broken his vows to you is your husband. No other woman has promised you anything. Him breaking his vows to you is alarming and you making it sound OK is also very alarming. I would understand your position to keep this crippled status quo IF you had no understanding of MB concepts, if you just didn't know any better. Most non-MB marriages are like that where one person is like your H, gaslighter and abuser, but let's say "normal" in conventional sense. But this normal is not MB normal, it is eating you alive. He will continue to be like he is as long as you let him to. You have to draw the line and let him know what is ok and what is not and make it happen, not just find other ways to deal with it. I hope you find your decisiveness and strength.
Me, FWW: 43
Mr_Recon6mo, FWH: 44
DD20 and DS23
3 cats
Married 23 years, together 24
Divorcing
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Markos tells me that he's heard Dr. Harley says if you want to have a romantic relationship with a woman, become somebody she texts with. Yes and here it is. Radio clip on texting your spouseHere's another. Radio clip
FWW/BW (me)
WH
2nd M for both
Blended Family with 7 kids between us
Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.
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Steve Harley knew about those EAs and he didn't start there, he started with POJA. But your husband is not following the POJA. He is not following Steve's recommendation. Following the POJA would include all the things that need to be stopped in order to protect your marriage from a repeat affair. Following the POJA would cover all of the concerns here. But he is not doing it, and you cannot do it alone, you cannot do it for him, and you cannot win him over to do it. Did Steve tell you to do something to try to motivate your husband to follow the POJA. Is there any chance you can talk with Steve again, or send an email to Dr. Harley on his radio show?
If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app! Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8. Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010 If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
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Steve Harley knew about those EAs and he didn't start there, he started with POJA. But your husband is not following the POJA. He is not following Steve's recommendation. Following the POJA would include all the things that need to be stopped in order to protect your marriage from a repeat affair. Following the POJA would cover all of the concerns here. But he is not doing it, and you cannot do it alone, you cannot do it for him, and you cannot win him over to do it. Did Steve tell you to do something to try to motivate your husband to follow the POJA. Is there any chance you can talk with Steve again, or send an email to Dr. Harley on his radio show? Your husband is not following the assignments, and it is taking a terrible toll on you. When Dr. Harley has a husband not follow the assignments, he does not tell the wife to go into overdrive trying to get him involved by being spectacular on her end. That rarely works. Instead, he talks with the husband about his failure to carry through on the assignments: When I coach a couple, I let them know from the beginning that I expect them to follow my assignments. If they fail to follow them, I focus on their failure rather than on the marital problems themselves, until they comply. Your husband has failed to follow Steve's assignments (POJA), and he has broken the feedback loop by dropping out of the program. Unless someone can talk to him (Steve, Dr. Harley, us, someone you know?) and get him to agree to follow the policy of joint agreement, I don't see a lot of hope here, and it's only going to continue to take a devastating emotional toll on you. Penni, there is little hope for a wife to be able to just "hang in there" until her husband gets on board. That is not what Dr. Harley tells wives to do.
If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app! Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8. Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010 If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
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I can't get him to post on the board. I have told him I posted on the board and he was never interested enough to look and see what I was posting.
He says he is open to in-person counseling, so I need to find someone who does MB counseling in our area. I fear that he will not stick with that either, but it's worth a shot.
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I have sent several emails to the radio show and have had responses.
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I have sent several emails to the radio show and have had responses. What did they say to you? Also if you're not going to do MB coaching at least follow this. How to find a good Marriage Counselor
FWW/BW (me)
WH
2nd M for both
Blended Family with 7 kids between us
Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.
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I was on May 7th, 2012, October 27th, 2011, June 8, 2011, and March 7th, 2011.
I mostly asked about specific issues and on May 7th my H stated his case and Dr. Harley responded to it. I can't access them now to listen again, though.
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I do remember Dr. Harley telling me to continue complaining and to avoid DJs.
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I was on May 7th, 2012, October 27th, 2011, June 8, 2011, and March 7th, 2011.
I mostly asked about specific issues and on May 7th my H stated his case and Dr. Harley responded to it. I can't access them now to listen again, though. Here are the links to your radio show discussions: May 7: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=3826October 27: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=3335June 22: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=3007February 17: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=2624
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FWW/BW (me)
WH
2nd M for both
Blended Family with 7 kids between us
Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.
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HDW has them. October 27th was in response to a note from my husband to the Harleys.
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Penni,
Please go back and listen to your calls. Dr. Harley pointed out the things that need to be eliminated.
Your H's anger needs to be addressed. What is he doing for this?
Your H's IB
Your H not following POJA
FWW/BW (me)
WH
2nd M for both
Blended Family with 7 kids between us
Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.
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Penni,
Please go back and listen to your calls. Dr. Harley pointed out the things that need to be eliminated.
Your H's anger needs to be addressed. What is he doing for this?
Your H's IB
Your H not following POJA You're right, Brain, those are the things that need to be addressed. He isn't doing much for them now but has said he'd like to work on anger management. I have suggested the MB clips on anger to him but as far as I know he hasn't listened to them. I thought about buying a biofeedback machine like Dr. Harley has talked about on his show, my husband might like that.
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Have you tried recording an AO of his and then playing it back? Dr. Harley talks about a woman doing that and it was eye opening for the H.
You do this without his knowledge of course.
FWW/BW (me)
WH
2nd M for both
Blended Family with 7 kids between us
Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.
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Yes, I have done that. He was shocked at what he said during the AO and surprised that I wasn't egging him on like he thought I was in the moment. I have done it three times and each time he said that it wasn't typical, that it's not how he usually acts when he is mad. I would say that each example was exactly typical.
He always deletes them right away so he knows how bad they are. The last time I saved it in a hidden folder on my computer before he could delete it, though.
I will keep trying to record them and maybe eventually he will start to realize that they are typical.
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Can someone please link me to the last segment from yesterday? I can't figure out how to listen to it. Thanks!
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Here you go. Your letter was read in this segmen, correct? Radio clip
FWW/BW (me)
WH
2nd M for both
Blended Family with 7 kids between us
Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.
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