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Originally Posted by maritalbliss
flower, or a little card with a sweet note in it. My H still does that on occasion, and we're 2+ years into recovery. He'll put a little note under my pillow for me to find at bedtime, or will tape a note to the bathroom mirror for me to find after he leaves for work. Sometimes he puts a note in my car for me to find when I leave for work in the morning.

Very romantic, and deposits a lot into my LB. smile I do the same for him.


i am all over this, flowers once a week...i bring them home. i used to have it sent to work every monday...hugh mistake actually worked against me

notes in the car in the morning i do

meet for lunch during work

have her pick out clothes in a magazine and i get them for her

any other ideas?

good stuff.


me;wh 46
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chickadee1 husband
serial cheater with narsacistic/adrenaline junkie tendencies
s ow 26
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Originally Posted by SugarCane
One of the suggestions that Dr Harley has for why a spouse lies is that they are trying to protect the other spouse from unpleasant truths - or at least, that's what they think they are doing.

You have had multiple affairs. My H has had one affair in which contact has been maintained - and I have been deceived - for 8 years. There are similarities in the BS's experience with multiple affairs and with multiple false recoveries, and I think I know what chickadee feels about your need to be honest with her.

Chickadee has found out that, for a portion of your life, you thought nothing of hurting her to fulfil your desires. Also, she found out that you are capable of running a secret second life (and how!) and that she will not know when this is happening. There are WSs who are bad at the lying and covering up involved in an affair, and there are a few that confess when the BS puts them under pressure. You (and my H) are not one of those WSs. You and my H are really easy liars when it comes to selfish desires. You are good at it. You can separate your lives into the affair life, and adopt a mindset that goes with that, and the married life, and have a completely different mindset to go with that. You develop separate compartments in your minds for each of your lives and you are not troubled by running the two in tandem.

This is a horrifying thing for a BS to discover - and remember, I am saying that this is always discovered with multiple affairs and LTAs. You have made lying and a secret second life into a lifestyle choice. It is no longer an aberration, as an affair is for some WSs. It might even be a part of your basic character.

When you screw up in some way, and then lie to chickadee about the details - to try and protect her - you are not protecting her at all. No lying is really protective, but in your case it is also something else. It is a return to your being the same man who had multiple affairs against her and never batted an eyelid at hurting her.

The only way you can protect chickadee from hurt is to stop hurting her. Do not forget POJA when she is not with you; it still applies to decisions you make involving other areas of your life. More importantly, do not lie to her when you break POJA. If you break it then it is your responsibility to put it right - but you will never put it right by lying to chickadee.

Don't push your forgiving BW away by lying to her. Don't lie, ever again, JB.


this really hit me hard because it's so dead on. secret second life. lying. i understand everything you said and took it very seriously as these are things my wife told me also.

LYING TEARS APART MY WIFE'S REALITY.

harsh. true. ended.

no lying ever. share the details. second life is dead.

second life note:
dramatic lifestyle adjustment. the second life isnt just about an affair but RA. if my wife didnt want to do an activity i went and did it anyway. i was tired of no. run, swim, bike, sail, museums, competions, work on house, friends etc. this is something we have to work on. i have become suddenly sedintary.

but one thing at a time.



me;wh 46
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serial cheater with narsacistic/adrenaline junkie tendencies
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i used to have it sent to work every monday...hugh mistake actually worked against me
When we began recovery, my FWH told me that he was going to bring me flowers at least once a week. Don't get me wrong - I love flowers. But that wasn't what I was looking for. That wasn't...comprehensive enough for me. It would have been too easy and would have become almost impersonal after a short while. The novelty would wear off fairly quickly. Plus, the frugal side of me chafed at the thought of all that money going out of our budget for flowers. Dee may think like I do when it comes to flowers.

Good rule of thumb: don't start something you can't (or shouldn't) maintain. Flowers are nice...once in a while. After that, Dee may start fretting (like I did) about the cost.

Other stuff - let me think...he mailed a sweet card to me at work because he knew I had a tough week coming up. It was very surprising to get it - and very sweet.

He changed the sheets on the bed on Saturday (we always change them on Sunday)while I was in the jacuzzi because he wanted me to have clean sheets after my soak.

We were talking at lunchtime one day (both at our own offices)and I mentioned to him that I was craving tandoori chicken, which is chicken in an Indian paste. It's a paste that is hard to find in our area. I mentioned that we'd have to wait until we went to an ethnic shop to get the paste for the chicken. He went to a little Indian store that afternoon and brought the paste home. (We cook a lot together, so it was a huge hit for me!)

The common thread in all of these things is best summed up when you think this way: "What can I do for Dee today that would make her really happy? What can I do that will give her pleasure?" That's what will fill her love bank.


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More ideas for you to work with (I had to wait for Mr.Bliss to get out of the shower because I wanted to make sure there wasn't anything I was missing from our early days of recovery that might help smile )

He planned a whole day for us at our nearest big city. Shopping at this really cool huge market of their local grocers (remember, we love to cook together)then we were off to this neat local micro-brewery to taste-test their daily brew, then on to a little ethnic restaurant for appetizers, back to the house to prepare dinner from the goodies we bought earlier. And then to bed. I'll stop my story there-but UA time continued, if I may be so bold. blush My love bank was pretty full.

He bought tickets for us to see our professional ball team (same big town). I'm not a big fan of baseball, but with dinner, and my interest in being open to new experiences for us, it was a fun night out.

He beat me home from work and started dinner. I walked in to place settings already laid, water glasses placed, and take-out being skillfully placed on our plates (the poor fella is lost when it comes to home-cooking without me, LOL).

Then you've got your everyday stuff, like rubbing feet, etc.

Contrary to popular belief, women DON'T like planning all their outings! They don't want to have to run the show. They LIKE having their husband plan everything out, from soup to nuts.I love having great outings with my husband, where I didn't have to plan a thing.



Last edited by maritalbliss; 10/24/11 11:01 PM.

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Originally Posted by jerkyboy
Originally Posted by HerPapaBear
I'm also curious how long ago your affairs began and how many there have been.


i assumed you would be asking the tough questions. its tough to answer, because it reminds me of the person i became, and the pain i caused my wife.


the affairs started 12yrs ago
there have been quite a few

(i was going to end it at that, but then what is the point of posting. i'm not just looking to talk but get advice and move forward in a positive direction with my wife.)

i wrote them all out and gave them to my wife
afairs ranged from flrting in a bar to sex in the most recent cases.

most afairs consisted of flirting in a bar or one or two dates (not sexual)and spaced out over long periods of time.

love was never a consideration

in the beginning I ended anything if it hinted at emotional or physical. however, they mostly started for the need for attention and affecton. sex was never a goal.

make any sense?

I appreciate that you went on to answer this.

I don't want to harp on it too much but the items I highlighted lead to a couple more questions.

You said, "In the beginning", so does that mean the first one or two affairs, or ??

And your first post doesn't exactly line up with the idea that sex wasn't the goal.

See if you can pick up on what I'm seeing here;

Originally Posted by Jerkboy
what came first, the chicken or the egg? I stopped conversation and affection, or she stopped sex and recreational activities. answer: it doesnt matter.

sex is like air, you dont think about it until its gone. and when its gone, its all you think about.

i go to sleep next to the person i want every night, i cant have, and doesnt want me. insane torment

i love my wife, but no sex. we talk about it. it doesnt go anywhere. so i look for affection elsewhere, i flirt etc and then i cross the line. problem is, i crossed the line when i flirted. i was already digging the hole.

I'm not trying to trip you up by comparing posts, so please don't read that into my post. I would just like you to elaborate on it some more. I honestly think you just need to complete your thoughts more.

I'm sure you have a concern about triggering your wife when you put your thoughts/old behaviors into something she can read, but from my experience, not answering completely will actually be the real cause of her pain. My wife just wanted to see if I understood how to be open and honest.... And she intuitively knew when I wasn't, and it was the REAL cause of her pain...


Last edited by HerPapaBear; 10/25/11 04:31 PM. Reason: added a red highlight for clarity.




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Originally Posted by jerkyboy
never got to the RC worksheet

Recreational Companionshiop Inventory Worksheets Link

I'm going to challenge both you and your wife to put a great deal of honesty and effort into filling this out ASAP!

Follow the instructions! wink

Last edited by HerPapaBear; 10/25/11 04:43 AM.




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Originally Posted by maritalbliss
Contrary to popular belief, women DON'T like planning all their outings! They don't want to have to run the show. They LIKE having their husband plan everything out, from soup to nuts.I love having great outings with my husband, where I didn't have to plan a thing.


good advice, i will start some planning of my own. I stopped because she would usually start with "why dont we do this instead". kind of defeats the purpose and left me feeling why plan? i will take baby steps with this.

however i will start to think "what can i do to make her happy today"
i will keep you posted.



me;wh 46
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serial cheater with narsacistic/adrenaline junkie tendencies
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Originally Posted by jerkyboy
Originally Posted by HerPapaBear
Originally Posted by jerkyboy
UA this is pretty easy

Can you tell me more?

How many hours each week, how do you decide what to do, and what types of activities are you both choosing...

Are you scheduling the UA time or just winging it?

Are you scheduling time for SF or just allowing it to occur naturally?

Due to your coaching, I'm assuming you've both done the RC Worksheet, please correct me if that's not the case..

I know, I'm a man with many questions! smile





UA we are empty nesting so spending time together is easy, 40+hrs

UA activities: cooking, going out to dinner, diagnostic, talk,

UA we used to schedule it but now wing it

SF no scheduling / avg monthly

never got to the RC worksheet

I'm going to challenge you to stick with scheduling your UA time.... And YOU need to take the lead on this.

You will fall into your old habits over time if you don't, and your wife will slide into the abyss as a result.


I'm also going to ask you to really evaluate your UA time.... Is the 40+ really UN-INTERRUPTED time? Are you giving each other you UN-DIVIDED ATTENTION?

Just because you are both in the same room or the same golf course, is the time really undivided attention?

I can't give anything 40+ hours of undivided attention, except maybe sleep.... and I even pause to question that.... smile


I'm sure Jennifer covered this in your coaching, but UA time is the time you spend meeting each others top EN's... You schedule the UA time in order to make certain that you've allowed for an emphasis of the number one and two EN's.

And please remember, these are questions, OK? Come back and answer them for me, but only after you've given them some thought.

Enjoy Your Day!








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Originally Posted by jerkyboy
good advice, i will start some planning of my own. I stopped because she would usually start with "why dont we do this instead". kind of defeats the purpose and left me feeling why plan?

Look at this more! You stopped because your wife didn't give you the admiration you felt you deserved for planning time out, and instead of being honest with yourself, you turned it into something more than what it was.....

How do I know this?

Admiration is my number one EN.... I'm betting it's way up there for you too!

It can cause me great pain when my wife dissed my ideas, thoughts, plans, etc.... I will shut down, act detached, pout, etc. And my wife usually has absolutely NO idea why I've shut down.

IT'S BECAUSE, I'm not honest with her....

Do you see a pattern in your own life with the lack of honesty causing the problems (like the "why plan" scenario you mentioned)?

Think about it; How can your wife meet these EN's of YOUR'S, like admiration, if you won't safely share when she has missed the target?


Dishonesty is bad habit that can lead to independent behavior that causes our spouse to become angry with us, accusing us of being selfish and we both become disrespectful with each other as a result.... Which one of the LB's did I miss?

Last edited by HerPapaBear; 10/25/11 05:18 AM. Reason: added a thought




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Just a quick thought;

Write your plans in pencil and keep an eraser handy...

It allows for some spontinaity to occur.....

Rigidity can be an enemy to romantic love!







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good advice, i will start some planning of my own. I stopped because she would usually start with "why dont we do this instead". kind of defeats the purpose and left me feeling why plan? i will take baby steps with this.
Don't let that stop you. Women don't like making all the plans, but it is in their nature to bring order from chaos. (We tamed our husbands, didn't we? laugh I suspect I'm going to get in trouble from some of our gentleman posters for that comment, but I'm going to leave it grin )

Make the plans for a fun day (keeping in mind what her interests are). Don't even tell her what the two of you will be doing - tell her you're taking her on an adventure and leave it at that.

Mental note to maritalbliss: remind Dee to let her H plan a fun day for the two of them and enjoy it without trying to control it.


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Hey JB-

I've been following your wife's thread since she started and it looks like you've come a long way. Good job!

As someone else suggested, any time you feel like *not* telling her something, you should definitely tell her. It seems to be recurring theme as honesty looks like a big issue. There was a post about a week ago involving your son coming to your house and him calling his mother to pick him up. You tried to avert that and the situation resolved itself.

But you didn't tell your wife and she found out about it by other means. Why didn't you tell her to begin with?

I suspect that your motives were good (sparing your wife the pain/burden) but the implementation was poor.



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Originally Posted by HerPapaBear
And please remember, these are questions, OK? Come back and answer them for me, but only after you've given them some thought.

Enjoy Your Day!


toe tap toe tap Both of me are waiting!!

Last edited by HerPapaBear; 10/27/11 09:18 AM.




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lol, HPB you might want to post those questions again. I had to use the find funtion on my computer to find that statement...

Or you making him work for it ? rotflmao


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Originally Posted by maritalbliss
Don't let that stop you. Women don't like making all the plans, but it is in their nature to bring order from chaos. (We tamed our husbands, didn't we? laugh I suspect I'm going to get in trouble from some of our gentleman posters for that comment, but I'm going to leave it grin )

[/quote]

AHEM!!!

Some of us have done the taming too!

But your idea is a good one. I like it!


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Originally Posted by HerPapaBear
Originally Posted by jerkyboy
Originally Posted by HerPapaBear
I'm also curious how long ago your affairs began and how many there have been.


i assumed you would be asking the tough questions. its tough to answer, because it reminds me of the person i became, and the pain i caused my wife.


the affairs started 12yrs ago
there have been quite a few

(i was going to end it at that, but then what is the point of posting. i'm not just looking to talk but get advice and move forward in a positive direction with my wife.)

i wrote them all out and gave them to my wife
afairs ranged from flrting in a bar to sex in the most recent cases.

most afairs consisted of flirting in a bar or one or two dates (not sexual)and spaced out over long periods of time.

love was never a consideration

in the beginning I ended anything if it hinted at emotional or physical. however, they mostly started for the need for attention and affecton. sex was never a goal.

make any sense?

I appreciate that you went on to answer this.

I don't want to harp on it too much but the items I highlighted lead to a couple more questions.

You said, "In the beginning", so does that mean the first one or two affairs, or ??

And your first post doesn't exactly line up with the idea that sex wasn't the goal.

See if you can pick up on what I'm seeing here;

Originally Posted by Jerkboy
what came first, the chicken or the egg? I stopped conversation and affection, or she stopped sex and recreational activities. answer: it doesnt matter.

sex is like air, you dont think about it until its gone. and when its gone, its all you think about.

i go to sleep next to the person i want every night, i cant have, and doesnt want me. insane torment

i love my wife, but no sex. we talk about it. it doesnt go anywhere. so i look for affection elsewhere, i flirt etc and then i cross the line. problem is, i crossed the line when i flirted. i was already digging the hole.

I'm not trying to trip you up by comparing posts, so please don't read that into my post. I would just like you to elaborate on it some more. I honestly think you just need to complete your thoughts more.

I'm sure you have a concern about triggering your wife when you put your thoughts/old behaviors into something she can read, but from my experience, not answering completely will actually be the real cause of her pain. My wife just wanted to see if I understood how to be open and honest.... And she intuitively knew when I wasn't, and it was the REAL cause of her pain...


ok i thought about it before i posted. it takes me a ridiculous amount of time to answer. expressing my feelings is not something i do. i type and delete alot...too much. so i'm giving everything i got.

LOVE WAS NEVER A CONSIDERATION
i never intended or would allow myself to be emotionally attached to the women i met. ever. if i felt that the other person was moving in that direction i walked away. falling in love with someone else was never a consideration, or option.

this can also be interpreted as i didnt consider the love i had for my wife. i always loved her. this is not what i meant when i said this. i was frustrated, and angry, but i loved her. if i didnt love her i would have left. i didnt need to fall in love with someone else to leave.

YOU SAID "IN THE BEGINNING", SO DOES THAT MEAN THE FIRST ONE OR TWO AFFAIRS??
my wife is reading my thread, so it is hard to throw it all out there. But i am actually ok with it (although difficult) because SHE wants to know everything, and if she didnt read this, it would just be another "secret".

The first affair was approximately 12yrs ago. it basically happened when is was working away from home and just coming home on the weekends. I had actually worked away from home in the past for extended periods of time and there wasn't any thought about crossing the line.

when the affair started my thought process was pretty simple...
if we dont have sex this month i have had enough, and im leaving
if we dont have sex in the next 6 month, i have had enough and im leaving
if we dont have sex this year i have had enough and im leaving
I couldn't leave, but i wasnt happy

then i left for a project where i came home on the weekends.

at first i thought, well i won't be upset that we dont have sex, and i didnt have to ask for sex and be rejected all the time. this plan was awesome. stupid and an incredibly caveman thought process but at the time i thought i invented the wheel. (there was never intercourse, - guilt, my line, i dont know)

the OW started to become emotionally involved and i walked away.

the guilt was ridiculous after that and nothing happened for a long time.

But sex or any attention was rare at home and i begane to flirt in the bars again, and a hand on the shoulder got me through. this was spotty for years. weeks, months or even a year apart.

I stopped asking my wife for sex because, what was worse than no sex was no sex and rejection.

then the ex was in the picture, again flirting and then physical (no intercourse)this was spotty again, we didnt see each other for months at a time.

i didnt really loose my mind until about approximately two and half years ago. i felt my life slipping away. i learned to swim, did some triathalons, learn to sail, golf, took on too much on at work, worked on the house a ridiculous amount. the flirting became more often and i even went on dates. ultimately i had sex with three women in the time frame before DDay. i defiately spun out of control moving 100 miles an hour everyday all day.

"AND YOUR FIRST POST DOESNT EXACTLY LINE UP WITH TH IDEA THAT SEX WASNT YOUR GOAL"

so in the end i guess it was about the sex. even though i always told myself it wasnt. it sounds juvinille to say it. and i feel ashamed that it was not something i could figure out myself. almost like a weakness. or a huge fault. the fatal flaw.

But when i flirted in the bars during the past years it didnt seem to be about the sex. i was there because sex was missing, but it was offered more easily than i expected, and it was always easy to walk away (narcisitic or just not goal?)

so i am afraid to trigger my wife. it is still new and the pain is still great.

i spoke about what was important in my mind and what i was thinking in my head. im sure my wife remembers things differently but this is my perseption at this time.

there is a tendency to speak in generalities, but my wife has the details and im comfortable with that.

RC
i will make sure that we do the RC worksheet this weekend

UA
i get your point, less than 40+. we are just spending the time together. i will start to track UA this week and really see what it is.

i get the honesty point you are talking about. i dont tell her that by her shutting down my plans it discourages me to plan in the future. and then i am not happy doing what she wants. all bad and... snowballing into stupid.

being honest with my wife has been pretty easy. being honest about my feelings seems to be the challenge that i am working on every day.

wow that was a lot. it actually physically wears me out. running a couple of miles is easier.








me;wh 46
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chickadee1 husband
serial cheater with narsacistic/adrenaline junkie tendencies
s ow 26
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Originally Posted by Northwood8900
Hey JB-

I've been following your wife's thread since she started and it looks like you've come a long way. Good job!

As someone else suggested, any time you feel like *not* telling her something, you should definitely tell her. It seems to be recurring theme as honesty looks like a big issue. There was a post about a week ago involving your son coming to your house and him calling his mother to pick him up. You tried to avert that and the situation resolved itself.

But you didn't tell your wife and she found out about it by other means. Why didn't you tell her to begin with?

I suspect that your motives were good (sparing your wife the pain/burden) but the implementation was poor.


honesty honesty honesty honesty

if i just told her what happened, how i felt about it, and what i did, things would have been fine. in fact i probably would have banked some LU, instead i lost them.

i learned the most with this incident. it was so simple and i made it so difficult for no reason. and i hurt my wife more than i could imagine.

you cant be a team if you are playing with different rules.






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serial cheater with narsacistic/adrenaline junkie tendencies
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Originally Posted by maritalbliss
More ideas for you to work with (I had to wait for Mr.Bliss to get out of the shower because I wanted to make sure there wasn't anything I was missing from our early days of recovery that might help smile )

He planned a whole day for us at our nearest big city. Shopping at this really cool huge market of their local grocers (remember, we love to cook together)then we were off to this neat local micro-brewery to taste-test their daily brew, then on to a little ethnic restaurant for appetizers, back to the house to prepare dinner from the goodies we bought earlier. And then to bed. I'll stop my story there-but UA time continued, if I may be so bold. blush My love bank was pretty full.

He bought tickets for us to see our professional ball team (same big town). I'm not a big fan of baseball, but with dinner, and my interest in being open to new experiences for us, it was a fun night out.

He beat me home from work and started dinner. I walked in to place settings already laid, water glasses placed, and take-out being skillfully placed on our plates (the poor fella is lost when it comes to home-cooking without me, LOL).

Then you've got your everyday stuff, like rubbing feet, etc.

Contrary to popular belief, women DON'T like planning all their outings! They don't want to have to run the show. They LIKE having their husband plan everything out, from soup to nuts.I love having great outings with my husband, where I didn't have to plan a thing.


this is a tough one for us. i really gave up on this a long time ago. she is the planner, i am more spontaneous. she is NOT happy with spontaneous. smile and she plans better than me.

however i will begin my planning and i will report back. i will be creative and will think about what will make my wife happy today.



me;wh 46
bs;42
chickadee1 husband
serial cheater with narsacistic/adrenaline junkie tendencies
s ow 26
poly 5/18 passed
mb program in progress
did the trickle truth thing
d day 2/2011 and april, and may
i love my wife
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I'm an extreme planner but would love it if my H would plan something romantic for me. I'm sure your W would feel the same way and would deposits tons in her LB$.

And read the review sheet and fulfill her needs EVERYDAY!

I'm glad your posting here JB.


Me: BS/FWW - 38
BH/FWH - 36
Married 13 years, together 17 years
Two boys: 9 & 12
OW#1 DDay: PA Nov 26, 2009 (July 2008-July 2009)
OW#2 DDay: PA Nov 29, 2009 (May 2009-Sept 2009)

Me: EA/PA (RA?) June 2010-Sept 2010
His DDay: Oct 2010
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Quote
this is a tough one for us. i really gave up on this a long time ago. she is the planner, i am more spontaneous. she is NOT happy with spontaneous. and she plans better than me.
This is going to have to evolve, then. The two of you need to work on this together.

One thing: until you get the hang of planning (and Dee gets the hang of letting you plan) write down your plan. Then show it to her for her input. I'm not saying she would rework the day, I'm saying she needs the opportunity to review it for any potential triggers she'll want to avoid. (Obviously you should plan it with avoiding triggers in mind, as well.)


D-Day 2-10-2009
Fully Recovered and Better Than Ever!
Thank you Marriage Builders!

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