Okay, good points. I'm going to work on the other items on the list. I think I will be able to install spyware on his phone because he lets me look at it for long periods without watching me. I just hope I can do it without getting caught because if he's up to something, I don't want him to suspect anything.

I'm not even sure I can get past the A but I KNOW I can not get past it if it's still going on OR if it starts again. I want to be married to my H but I don't need to be married to him.


He's made it clear over and over again that he wants to save our M, and that he's grateful for me even considering trying to forgive him (I can't say I'm quite there yet, nor will I be anytime soon).

Our only setback has been the stupid google incident.

I did ask him about his email and he said it would be impossible to change when it's his name @ his company so he gave me the password instead. (I could always have all his emails forwarded to me as well). Besides, if he really wanted to email the skank, he could easily create another email account so I'm going to try to install a keylogger on his computer. I think that will make me feel safer about emails because that will cover any account that could be created.

Overall, WH been very patient and understanding. I've slipped and had more than a few AO's and he's responded by saying that he deserves my anger and that he hopes it will fade in time. I know I shouldn't be having AO's but the google incident sent me over the edge. I have been meeting his needs for SF and affection though. Even when I'm having a bad day and feeling the rage, I make myself treat him with love, even though I just want to scream at him and call him awful names.

Managed to get a VAR in H's car. Nothing to report. Same with his cell. Nothing suspicious on there either. I haven't done the GPS unit but he is with me 99% of the time as he decided to work from home for the last few weeks so that I feel safer. When he has gone out, it's only for a short time to do errands. However, he doesn't realize I've also been following him but he always goes where he says he's going and he's always been alone. I'm going to keep doing it for awhile though.

We've each identified our top EN's and we've both been doing a good job at meeting them. The hysterical bonding phase is still going strong 2 1/2 months later. 2-3 times per day some days.

There has been a bit of a backslid3 however...he offered to grab us coffee one morning and a friend of mine called. I knew he'd be gone at least 15 minutes so I thought I was alone. I admitted to her that although things were going well, that sometimes I still felt like leaving because I didn't feel the same way about H and that sometimes I looked at him and thought he was disgusting. Yes, all DJ's but I was venting and honestly sometimes I just want to wash my hand of the whole darn mess because I'm angry but I am trying. Well, what I didn't realize was that H forgot his wallet and I didn't hear him come in. He listened to the entire conversation.

He confronted me after and was really upset. He said he's noticed that I do look at him like he's disgusting sometimes and while he understands why, it's very painful. He started crying, saying that I deserved better and that he knew how this was going to end. That I would file for divorce in 6 months to a year anyway and I was probably only trying to recover for the sake of the kids. I got upset and told him that he shouldn't be feeling sorry for himself when he was the one who had the A and I said (or rather screamed) that I did deserve better. We started arguing and it was not pretty. It ended with him saying he would do me a favor and file for D next year so that I wouldn't have to be the bad guy. I asked if it's what he wanted and he said no but deep down he believed that it's what I wanted.

Later, he crawled into our bed and hugged me and said he loved me and he was so sorry for everything and then wanted to SF.

The next day, he apologized and admitted he had a bad reaction to overhearing my conversation but that he understands my feelings. He then added he knew it would take me a long time to stop feeling disgusted but he was willing to wait.

I don't know if I'm reacting to his flakiness or the flip flopping but I have been feeling distant for the last couple of days. He can't expect me to not have moments of doubt. After all he was the one who decided our M was over and decided to have an A. It's not like he fell into it. The man planned it. I understand my venting hurt him but threatening to D me because he fears I might D him in the end anyway is just plain ridiculous. I feel like he should be grateful that I'm trying and certainly don't need for him to make the D decision for me.

In so many ways, he's back to the loving, affectionate man he was before our marital problems started. I can definitely tell the difference between his behavior now and the way he was while in the A. It's so obvious, I feel like an idiot for not realizing something was up. Although, it's probably because he is right on some level -- I did stop caring about him and paying attention to him long before his A.

I guess this is the rollercoaster though because now I'm feeling blah again even though everything else seems to be on track.

Ellie, this conversation with your friend should never have occurred. If you feel this way you need to talk honestly with your husband about it, not outiders. Make this your own EP to keep your marriage safe. I never talk to anyone about anything that would be construed as a negative about my husband. My friends all doubtless think he's the perfect man. (Okay, maybe he is... ) I also discourage my friends from bashing their husbands to me. That kind of negative energy has a way of spreading like a cancer. Next thing you know, everyone's mad at their husband!

The moment you feel a negative vibe about your husband, go to your husband.

maritalbliss, I was concerned if I told my H that I thought of him as disgusting sometimes that it was a DJ? I'm cycling through some anger right now and I don't know why when he's being so sweet. I guess I thought venting to my friend was better than DJ'ing him but I understand your point. Duly noted.

Does he know you feel this way?
It sounds to me like you've been letting this build up. I'll bet you didn't go to sleep one night, loving him as usual, and then wake up the next morning feeling nothing but disgust for him. Somewhere in there you kept some negative emotions to yourself (probably because you didn't want the conflict of talking with him about it). You can see where that led.

I think you should really think about what you're feeling. Do you really feel disgust for him? It's not a DJ to share your honest feelings with your H. Just make sure you know what they are. And after you've identified that, be considerate of his feelings in your approach to dealing with the issue. I'd skip the "You disgust me" approach. Would you like it if he suddenly blindsided you with a statement like that?

I agree with the principle that you should not bash your spouse to your friends. This often leads to bad advice, and in a weakened emotional condition we're frequently likely to take it. Also it leads to positive reinforcement of negative emotions, which isn't where you usually want to go.

However, a sympathetic ear from a supportive friend is an incredibly valuable asset. It's very helpful to have friends who understand where you are and can help you. It's possible to discuss your emotions and situation without bashing your spouse; particularly while you're trying to recover, bouncing ideas off of friends about how to approach difficult issues can often provide the unbiased perspective you lack when you're emotionally invested in an issue.

An understanding friend or two can make all the difference in the world to your marriage! An unwise friend whom you trust who gives bad advice can also ruin an otherwise perfect recovery.

GREAT advice from both Door and MB!!!

I struggle with how to talk to my H about negative things too. It's something you just learn by doing. You use "I" statements, not "You" statements and talk about it in terms of what you need, not how bad "they" are. At the same time, you have to make sure to not talk around issues.

I've learned the value of discussing the issues directly in recent months. "When you ((do some thing)), I feel ((this way)); I'd love to brainstorm how to avoid situations that make me feel this way" is the kind of statement I tend to use. "I'd love it if you would not do X" is very useful when you're short on time to draw attention to your spouse's Love Busters, but somewhat less effective for us.

It's also very helpful for us to use the phrase "Let's brainstorm about this." It's a reminder to my wife that we want to find ideas we are both enthusiastic about, rather than tearing down the ideas we are not.

Yes, maritalbliss he knows that I'm going through an angry phase, as opposed to the sad phase I was going through after D-day. His response is that I should be angry and if the situation were reversed, that he would be angry too. (We're at 3 months right now so he thinks what I'm feeling is normal from what he's read).

Anyway, we talked again this weekend as per your suggestion. He didn't really have much to say aside from the fact that he understands. And I do feel disgust about his actions which I believe he understands as well. His response to these conversations is physical affection and then SF. He said he doesn't know exactly how to respond with words so he just responds by wanting to make me feel good and to be close.

During his A he was very cold to me and rarely showed me any physical affection so the difference is very noticeable. We also never had SF during his A because he was so mean and angry during that time and I had no interest in SF at all. I think my Love Bank was at zero too.

Doormat No More, the friend I was referring is supportive so I feel safe running things by her, but I will watch how I talk about my FWH in the future. Thanks for the great advice.

H and I talked about a poly again this morning and he's still all gung ho about doing it so I think I'm going to schedule one soon. I think I need it for my piece of mind. He also agreed to sign a post-nuptial agreement stating that if he were ever to have another A or speak or see OW again, that he will give up custody of the kids and I get the house, along with more than half of our assests. So I'm going to see a lawyer to have that drawn up. My mind can't stop harping on the "what ifs" even though everything seems to be going well so I think I need those EP's in place to feel safer.

I think it's time to ask my H to leave...

He gave me the "you deserve better" speech. He said I'll never trust him and that he wants a fresh start and that I deserve one too. I told him he was a coward.

There is no sign of contact with the skank.

He thinks he's doing this for me because I will come to this conclusion eventually. So he's saving me the time. Unbelievable.

And he claims he wants to live in our home and sleep in the same bed until our eldest D graduates in June. I told him he can leave immediately and he said that's not fair to our kids.

Oh, but him giving up on the family after what he did is apparently fair... I want to smack him right now.

I am not interested in plan A'ing him in the least after what he's put us all through. But he said he's not going to leave and that's he's not still cheating and will never cheat again. He just claims I deserve better and will leave him someday anyway.

I'm not sure what to do. Call my lawyer? Ignore him and look at this as another one of his tantrums. I'm so angry right now.

Ellie,

I'm not sure why you're in the recovery forum. I think SAA is probably a better place right now. You are still relatively fresh from Dday. I wouldn't recommend doing anything until the 6 month mark at least. You are still on the rollercoaster of emotions and honestly, he is too.

Do you two have a plan for recovery that you are following? If so, can you lay it out for us here?

You wrote a few posts back:

"He claims he's serious and that he knows it will take time for me to feel safe and he's prepared to go through that"

Is he still serious about this? Have you asked him about it?

CV

CV,

He claims he was serious about that comment at the time but now he's convinced that I will eventually call it quits so what's the point anymore.

He also claims I don't look at him in the same way which is probably true. But what does he expect from me? I'm still raw, angry and hurt. I still have bad days on the rollercoaster.

Today he found me crying in our closet and apparently it's all too much for HIM.


I still think he's selfish and foggy even if he's ended the A. He denies being foggy because he said he was the one who ended the A before I found out about it and he made the decision to recover our marriage before D-day so it was not a reaction to exposure. According to him these are the reasons he is NOT foggy but he still displays the same angry attitude he had at times during the A and recovery seems to be all about him. So I'm still seeing a selfish wayward.

As for our plan, we have been spending 15 hours a week UA time and have been working on meeting each others EN's. He claims I'm doing an excellent job but personally I think his efforts are lacking and from my reading, are probably the reason I feel disconnected and withdrawn at times. This all leads him to believe I will never be able to forgive him and get past the A and that I will always look at him like an untrustworthy snake.

I told him that he needs to try to make a more concentrated effort to meet my needs. His response tonight was "What's the point? I know where this is headed. You will eventually leave me!" He also claims that I deserve better (Yes!) and that I will find someone else who won't be so stupid as to cheat on me and will make me happier. It all comes across as fog babble to me at this point.

I can't believe he's actually telling me he's leaving in June and sees no problem with the hurt and pain it will cause our kids. Because according to him, we all need a fresh start. Is he really that immature as to believe that these kids need a fresh start without their own father? The stuff he is spewing is ridiculous. I admit I probably DJ'd him more than once tonight and there was definitely an AO. Ugh.

I guess the reason I am thinking of asking him to leave is because if he's going back to sleeping in the guest room and there is no more affection and meeting of EN's (because he says there's no point) then what's the point of having him hang around causing me more pain?

If we're not both committed to recovery then having him here is letting him cake eat even if his A is not active. I get to go through the pain of this betrayal and all that entails while watching him pretend all his well in his world.

One of our D's told me the other night that he goes along like nothings happened and everyone else is hurting. She said her old father is dead and she has no idea who this new one is...

It's not easy for us out here to to assist you, because it's very difficult to pin down exactly what it is you want as a resolution of your current situation, EB. That would be of no import, but it seems you are as much "at sea" as we are.

First it seems that you are vexed that your FWH seems to have given up on your marriage. That is a distinct (usually transient) reaction by a shamed FWS, when the enormity of their crime finally hits them.

Two posts later, you are apparently more angered by the fact that, though he has suggested leaving your home (to which you were seemingly opposed/dismayed?), he is relutant to leave on the accelerated schedule you would like!

Yes, recovery is supposed to have all the elements of a roller-coaster, EB, but that is meant in reference to the EMOTIONS of the period, not the overweaning PURPOSE!

DO YOU PLAN TO WORK TO RECOVER YOUR MARRIAGE? If so, then stop listening to his disjointed words, and instead ensure that he hears YOURS. When he says "I should leave for your benefit," your answer should be, "Let me worry about my welfare; you have work to do to repair our marriage, and I demand that you do THAT, instead of turning tail!"

(I'm sorry my post might seem harsh, EB, but you are the one I'm writing to; if FWH was here, he'd get BOTH barrels.)

NG,

Yes, I suppose I am all over the place. I'm angry because this is not the first time, he's pulled the whole "it's going to end eventually so what's the point anyway" card. Is it too much for him to stop relying on my feelings about all this and show some strength?

He's not reading this board or putting in much effort to educate himself anymore. Yes, he's read HNHN but he hasn't bothered with SAA. Then because I'm having a couple bad days (the holidays were triggering me like crazy)...he's ready for divorce. I guess I find his focus on his guilt and what everyone thinks of him as selfish at this point. He should be concentrating on helping us all heal. He should have asked our daughters for forgiveness for what he stole from them too. Not just an email apology about what he did to me or some texts. He hasn't even spoken to them in person about this yet. I guess I'm just feeling frustrated and questioning his commitment which leads me to question mine.

I never realized this was common. I just thought he was looking for an out so he could be free to do whatever he wants and not have to worry about all of us and our "pain".

So I should ignore this outburst? He claims he's 100% sure this is his FINAL decision. I've heard that before too but I'm getting tired of the threat.


Well, he claims there is no point in working on our M then in the next breath, he's going to stay for 6 more months. Isn't that cake eating? I'm wondering what's next, no more transparency and him contacting skankho or getting involved with someone else because it no longer matters. I don't want to live with him under those circumstances. It feels emotionally abusive and I'm already depressed.

The months when he was vacillating between wanting a divorce and working on our M were hard enough and that's before I even knew of the A. Since D-day, it's been all about NC letters and transparency and paranoia and I'm just emotionally exhausted by the last 8 months of upheaval he's thrust upon this family. 6 more months of living with him while he wants "out" and goes back to being distant seems like torture.






How can I work on in when he made it clear yesterday that it was OVER? I won't beg.

And I didn't say those exact words but I did tell him that he stole my choices during his A and he was not going to steal this choice from me. He said he's going to make the decision for me because he can see that I'm agonizing over it and I'm only trying to do the right thing for the kids. He said I always do the right thing and that I should go out and be happy. I said that's the attitude that got him in this mess in the first place. He keeps saying the kids will be fine eventually and I will thank him someday when I find a man that makes me happy. I told him that seeing my kids (especially my youngest) in more pain over the break-up of our family will not make me happier even if I find a wonderful man. He's adamant that divorce is the best thing for ME. I wonder if it's really all just about him because he keeps mentioning wanting a clean slate. As if he will ever really get a clean slate with 3 children and an ex-wife!


No worries. It didn't seem harsh at all and I can take it anyway. You gave me some things to think about...

I can't take much more of his drama. First the divorce threats in the spring and summer, then finding out about the A in the Fall and now it's back to D threats again. My Love Bank is overdrawn.

I need a man to lead this family not destroy it.

Ellie, I would ask him to participate in this program and if he won't do it, then you need to make plans to go into Plan B. There is no plan here so he has given up. You need to have a workable plan that makes sense to him.. There is no hope here because there is no reason to believe you will ever recover. I don't think he gets it.

You are sitting in the waiting room of the most effective recovery plan that I know of. It really does work. But you have to actually use it.

My suggestion to you would be to get marriage counseling with Steve Harley. Have SH assess your situation and give you a real plan of action. If your husband then refuses, you can go into Plan B and file for divorce.

Why do you think that is? Are you SURE he is not still in contact? Do you have all the truth?

You shouldn't live with him if he refuses to recover your marriage. REconciliation after an affair is coningent upon certain things and recovery is one of the main things. If he won't engage in recovery, there is no reason for him to be hanging around. ITs obvious to me that one of the main reasons this is going nowhere is due to his failure to meet your needs.

Melodylane, At this point, it seems pointless to ask him to participate in any program because he's done. Even our kids pain doesn't seem to phase him. Maybe he's just one of those men who doesn't value his family. I can't believe the man he's become because I never thought he'd say some of the things I hear coming from his mouth. He seems to think our kids being hurt is the price he has to pay for his A. No, it's the price they have to pay!