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Originally Posted by EllieBlue
[
As for now, yes I haven't exactly been the poster girl for MB. I'm still obsessed about the A and probably bring it up too often but I still have questions. When do you have enough details about the A to let it go? I know who, where, when and how often.

Ellie, I admit I am sooo confused with your situation. I think with these recent posts the problem might be that you are driving your husband crazy by continually bringing it up. You are keeping the affair front and center.

What is your question that has not been answered? Once he answers your questions and you have all the facts, it should never be brought up again. Has he answered all your questions?


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Originally Posted by celticvoyager
Use this as an opportunity to talk with him. The feelings of disgust can be overcome. You can't DJ him and expect him to not feel anything. That's realistic. You guys need to learn to talk about things in a civil manner without threats and without hurting each other. It is not recovering when you do this. If you guys are having trouble communicating about things, get a notebook and write them out. Let it sit for a bit and then go back to it and review it. Make sure there aren't any DJ's in there and then let the other person read it and respond back in the notebook until you can speak in a beneficial way to each other.

Thanks, cv. I think this is where we or rather I am going wrong. I am DJ'ing him or he thinks I'm DJ'ing because he says I am looking at him differently. He says he can tell I am having negative thoughts about him because of the look on my face. I guess he is right. He did admit it hurt him that I might always think of him as disgusting, ugly or sleazy. I guess I am keeping his doubts alive. He did make it clear that what he really wants is for us to recover but he does not think I can recover so he said he's letting me go because he loves me. It sounded like fog babble to me but he did have tears in his eyes and said he truly did love me and that's why this was going to be so hard but that it was right... so maybe there is some truth in there.

I'm not sure where's he's at today. He got up, didn't give me my usual hug and kiss and acted distant (I was expecting this) but then asked me if I slept and sat with me in the living room and watched TV. Now he's cleaning toilets. He cleans to make me happy. He's told me that in the past so I'm not sure if I should bring anything up right now and just let him approach me.

I like your journal idea.

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Originally Posted by NeverGuessed
EB, a few weeks ago I spent some time putting together a conceptual framework about why some BSs torture their WSs emotionally, when doing so is very much in opposition to their own best interests:

Forgiven? Not yet!

I didn't know at the time why I felt compelled tp do it, but I think it might be very important to you now. Read it, and let me know if it speaks to you.

NG, thank-you. Yes, that post really resonated. You are describing me to a T. I do say I want to recover but my next thought is maybe I can never get over this...

I admit I do wonder at times if I can.

I am still so angry. I love my H but he's right, the way I look at him has changed. Our eldest DD said it's like her old father is dead. I guess in some ways I am wondering who this new man is...My H used to be the most honest, kind man and during his A, he became mean. I noticed but never connected the dots.

I'm scared it's changed him forever.

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Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Ellie, I admit I am sooo confused with your situation. I think with these recent posts the problem might be that you are driving your husband crazy by continually bringing it up. You are keeping the affair front and center.

What is your question that has not been answered? Once he answers your questions and you have all the facts, it should never be brought up again. Has he answered all your questions?

MelodyLane, yes I think you are right. I am bringing it up and even when I don't, he senses I am thinking about it. Or he brings it up by apologizing to me again over dinner and getting teary-eyed. He apologizes a lot. Almost daily.

I'm not sure if I have all the answers to my questions yet. Because I need details. For instance the other day, I wanted to know if he bought her anything for Valentines Day or if they celebrated together. Do I need to let details like this go if they just upset or trigger me? I feel obsessed with the details. Ugh.

Oh, and of course I told him last night that he was selfish for wanting to start over with a clean slate and abandon his children. He said if he was selfish then I didn't want him anyway. So these are the kinds of conversations that lead to DJ's too because I get angry at his foggy justifications for D and his self-centeredness when he says the kids will be just fine because we will co-parent together and help them. His double talk is aggravating. If I say his thinking is flawed then he responds that's why I shouldn't want to be with him.

This kind of talk is what makes me angry because it's come up more than once and then my doubts are intensified.

Last edited by EllieBlue; 12/28/11 08:30 PM.
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NG, thank-you. Yes, that post really resonated. You are describing me to a T.

I thought it might. And I'd like to present the following proposition:

If your marriage is not going to spiral down through the porcelain portal,
one of you is going to have to step up and (as we very often say to BHs)
"Be The Hero".

We'd really like it to be him, but he's not here. Why him? Because
1) he broke it; he should fix it, and
2) it's more effective if the WS is carrying the load.

But without one of you creating a discontinuity in your joint marital vector,
between your (expressed) resentment and his (suppressed) self-loathing,
the outlook is not good.

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Originally Posted by NeverGuessed
If your marriage is not going to spiral down through the porcelain portal,
one of you is going to have to step up and (as we very often say to BHs)
"Be The Hero".

We'd really like it to be him, but he's not here. Why him? Because
1) he broke it; he should fix it, and
2) it's more effective if the WS is carrying the load.

But without one of you creating a discontinuity in your joint marital vector,
between your (expressed) resentment and his (suppressed) self-loathing,
the outlook is not good.

Yes, this all makes sense but as you said, it's more effective if the WS is carrying the load. I haven't been perfect but I have been trying and I feel like I've put more into recovery than him. He hasn't sought out info on how to help me get through this or how to help his daughters. It's like he's here and that should be enough.

He shot a big hole in me and our family and now he wants to wash his hands of us all because it's too hard on him?

That's what makes me doubt if he is worth it. I want him to want to do anything and everything to fix this family.

He should care that much about us because he certainly didn't during his A. He used to be that kind of man (or so I thought) but it seems like that man has been replaced by this weak, selfish, cowardly man who thinks that running away and D is about him getting a clean slate. It makes me feel sick when I think about who he has become. He is going to ruin his R's with his DD's over this if he chooses D. I know their feelings and if he doesn't step up, he will lose them for years.

If the thought of losing his children's respect and their pain doesn't motivate him, will anything really at this point? It's like the man I was speaking to last night had no soul.

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Originally Posted by EllieBlue
[
I'm not sure if I have all the answers to my questions yet. Because I need details. For instance the other day, I wanted to know if he bought her anything for Valentines Day or if they celebrated together. Do I need to let details like this go if they just upset or trigger me? I feel obsessed with the details. Ugh.

Ellie, one of the first steps of recovery is giving you all the facts about the affair. That should be done in the first week. Will he agree to have one last session with you if you agree to never bring it up again? You have a right to know everything about the affair, but he should not be beaten up over and over again for it. Would he agree to answer all your questions if you agreed to do this?

And he needs to do much more than answer pointed, direct questions like a hostile witness. Rather, he needs to be a storyteller and paint you a complete picture.

Quote
I am bringing it up and even when I don't, he senses I am thinking about it.

When he senses you are thinking about it, that is time for him to reach out and comfort you.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Originally Posted by EllieBlue
[
He shot a big hole in me and our family and now he wants to wash his hands of us all because it's too hard on him?

That's what makes me doubt if he is worth it. I want him to want to do anything and everything to fix this family.

This is why I think he would greatly benefit from counseling with Steve Harley. Steve will tell him to focus on giving aide and comfort to his victim and nursing you back to health. Your H seems somewhat childish, but I think Steve could influence him to man up here.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Ellie, one of the first steps of recovery is giving you all the facts about the affair. That should be done in the first week. Will he agree to have one last session with you if you agree to never bring it up again? You have a right to know everything about the affair, but he should not be beaten up over and over again for it. Would he agree to answer all your questions if you agreed to do this?

And he needs to do much more than answer pointed, direct questions like a hostile witness. Rather, he needs to be a storyteller and paint you a complete picture.

When he senses you are thinking about it, that is time for him to reach out and comfort you.

I think before yesterday night and his "we need to D for my benefit" speech, he would have been willing. Now he might just say "What's the point if we're D'ing anyway?" Actually, with his mindset right now, that's what I will get.

And I doubt he will be the "storyteller" because he claims he doesn't remember all the details from a year ago and that it was just friends with benefits and not a love affair affair at first. It became an EA for only 2 and a half months this year and that it wasn't all that passionate or romantic even then because he always had doubts about the skank. He has told me how it started, what they did when they saw each other, where they went, how often they spoke and texted. They rarely saw each other but we have gone through the calendar and he's given me as many meeting days and places as he can recall. He said in the past he will answer any question as long as I'm sure I want to know.

For instance, he said he actually intended to start the A as a sick need for revenge because I had rejected him and as horrible and evil as that sounds, that I had the right to know that he did it on purpose and didn't fall into it like so many people. That was hard to hear. I didn't DJ but I did cry so I don't feel he spared me any of the ugly truth as far as I can tell. He also told the skank that he didn't like me.

Not sure what else I need right now but a question might pop up in my mind later or tomorrow or next week. And I worry that because he lied to her and lied to me, that he's still lying so of course I ask the questions too often for his liking.

And yes, he does comfort me when I trigger but he seems numb to my pain. He actually said there's been so much pain lately, that he feels numb so I'm worried that now his need to run is getting stronger because avoiding conflict is an issue for him. He said the A was due in part to his need to avoid conflict and escape. I'm not really sure he's learned that much from this mess if he now wants to avoid pain and conflict by leaving.

Last edited by EllieBlue; 12/28/11 09:05 PM.
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Originally Posted by EllieBlue
He admits he was a sleazeb*g during his A. His concern is that I still look at him like that and that a part of me always will...

And he's right if you don't start moving forward.

The more forward you move, the less triggered you will be and the less you will feel this way about him.


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Originally Posted by MelodyLane
This is why I think he would greatly benefit from counseling with Steve Harley. Steve will tell him to focus on giving aide and comfort to his victim and nursing you back to health. Your H seems somewhat childish, but I think Steve could influence him to man up here.

He really does need to man up and yes, I would describe him as childish. Although, he will just say that if he's childish then I will be better off without him. He seems to have no desire to be a better man right now because he said he's already the bad guy anyway so what's the point. He needs to grow-up. I feel like emailing his father (even though he's a two-time cheater) and telling him to tell him to man up. Because despite his past, I do think that he would not be impressed that his son is planning to leave his family. I have a feeling he would definitely be on the side of me and his grandchildren.

Anyway, it seems my H is feeling terribly sorry for himself right now. Skanky thought he was wonderful despite his cheating lying ways. Who knows? Maybe going back to that life is looking good right now. If that's who he really is then we ARE better off.

That said, I acknowledge that I have been LB'ing him by bringing up the affair too often. And he did overhear me speaking to a friend about him looking disgusting to me at times.

So I'm not sure if I go to Plan B immediately? Or if I give it a few days and see if he comes around if I stop bringing up the A and offer him some affection?

He's disappeared into the basement and has not spoken to me since this morning. I'm clearly being ignored which I think is incredibly cruel of him. So I'm not sure if it's going to be seen as pursuing or begging if I try to reach out....

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Originally Posted by celticvoyager
Originally Posted by EllieBlue
He admits he was a sleazeb*g during his A. His concern is that I still look at him like that and that a part of me always will...

And he's right if you don't start moving forward.

The more forward you move, the less triggered you will be and the less you will feel this way about him.

Exactly. I have told him that recovery and healing takes time. Prior to last night, he said again he knew it would take time and he was willing to go through that with me. Now, he's back to claiming time won't matter as I will D him eventually (because apparently he has a job with the psychic network). This not the first time he's gone down this road and he admits it has been on his mind from the beginning so which statement is the truth? That he was willing to go through it? Or that it's going to end in D eventually so why bother anymore? Nice to know how worth it he seems to think me and his children are...

We are barely 3 months past d-day! What does he expect from me?! A promise written in blood that I will not D him ever??

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Is there any way you can afford Steve Harley of Marriage Builders? He runs about $200 a session, but I think he could knock some sense into him. IF he could do that, we could help you guys with a plan for recovery.

You wouldn't need to get your husbands agreement now because you should counsel with Steve ALONE first. Steve would tell you what to say to get him on the phone with him.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Is there any way you can afford Steve Harley of Marriage Builders? He runs about $200 a session, but I think he could knock some sense into him. IF he could do that, we could help you guys with a plan for recovery.

You wouldn't need to get your husbands agreement now because you should counsel with Steve ALONE first. Steve would tell you what to say to get him on the phone with him.

Yes, I can afford it. I don't want to do it with the children home so I will wait until they're back in school or out for the day but yes, I think this is my best option before I make another decision. Not sure if I will bother asking H to get on board with this right now because I don't feel like being shot down yet again with his, "what's the point if he's made the decision to D?" excuse. Maybe Steve will have some advice for me on if I should ask him to participate at this point.

I'm angry right now and have been tempted to ask him to leave today if he's going to ignore me and truly wants a D but I'm trying to maintain control.

I'm worried that ignoring him is going to tempt him into contacting skanky. puke

Last edited by EllieBlue; 12/28/11 09:56 PM.
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My anxiety is getting worse. He's still in the basement ignoring the children and I. I wonder if he's texting her now...

It's driving me crazy that I didn't get eblaster on his new phone before all this went down. I really don't feel safe right now.

What a difference this is from the man who last week was saying he was 100% committed to this M.

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I am even more confused. H wrote me a letter.

In it, he said I was beautiful, intelligent, thoughtful and sexy and the grace I had shown him was amazing. However, he said, he is not worthy of my forgiveness and I deserve someone who will not do what he did to me and hurt me so badly, and who values me more than he did. He said he was very sorry and that he loved me.

He's been affectionate again but he started crying while we were hugging and said he was sad.

Is this just another dip in the rollercoaster of recovery? I'm not sure if he's still saying he's done or if he's looking for me to tell him that he is worthy? Maybe the guilt and shame is kicking in big time. Or he's looking for an out...

I've decided to give him affection and UA time today, not mention the A and call for telephone counselling next week.



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Originally Posted by EllieBlue
I am even more confused. H wrote me a letter.

In it, he said I was beautiful, intelligent, thoughtful and sexy and the grace I had shown him was amazing. However, he said, he is not worthy of my forgiveness and I deserve someone who will not do what he did to me and hurt me so badly, and who values me more than he did. He said he was very sorry and that he loved me.

He's been affectionate again but he started crying while we were hugging and said he was sad.

Is this just another dip in the rollercoaster of recovery? I'm not sure if he's still saying he's done or if he's looking for me to tell him that he is worthy? Maybe the guilt and shame is kicking in big time. Or he's looking for an out...

I've decided to give him affection and UA time today, not mention the A and call for telephone counselling next week.

You need to decide to give him affection and UA time every day if you want your marriage to survive. The truth of the matter is, there is no promise of a better life with a new spouse. If anyone can have an affair if the conditions are right, then you are as much at risk with a new spouse as with a repentant old one.

Do you want a good marriage with him?

If so, tell him. Tell him that yes, you feel all these things, but you WANT to work to make it better with HIM. Tell him that you are really interested in recovery and not a half-baked version of it. Otherwise, you will not progress.

CV


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You need to decide to give him affection and UA time every day if you want your marriage to survive.

THANK YOU, CV! It was getting awful lonesome espousing the "now's the time to fight for your marriage" tactic to EB!

EllieBlue, what CV is suggesting is the Plan A option I mentioned to you almost 27 hours ago. It is NOT easy. But, unless your WH is a master actor, and his "funk" is in reality a disguise to shield his ongoing affair with skanky, you have a good shot off pulling him back to your family.

Have you read the Plan A guidelines yet?

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Originally Posted by EllieBlue
I've decided to give him affection and UA time today, not mention the A and call for telephone counselling next week.

Sounds good! Don't talk about the affair anymore, Ellie. And get hooked up with Steve Harley or his sister, Dr Jennifer Chalmers. I don't understand what is going with your husband but I get the sense that he can't stand to have the affair rubbed in his face anymore. And I can't say I blame him.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Yes, you are are all right! I do need to do a better job of meeting his EN's and not withdrawing because when I do the results are obvious. The issue is that I get triggered horribly and withdraw. Then eventually H withdraws and we head into a downward spiral that ends with his becoming negative about Recovery.

Yesterday, I reached out to him after his letter and instead of getting into a long discussion, just hugged him, told him I loved him and asked if he wanted to go out with the kids and I. He was back to being affectionate and attentive within hours. We did some shopping for some new things for our home and grabbed dinner.

H was obviously down for most of the day and I could tell he was still feeling sad. I asked him if he was okay and he said he was feeling depressed. He then added that this all affected him too even if he didn't show it as much as I did but he explained that he was just as depressed about what he had done to our M.

Later, we snuggled in our bed and talked about songs that reminded us of each other. I didn't bring up the A but as we were watching a movie, H commented that the star of the film had always reminded him of me but that I had better lips. I said she has nice lips too and H responded, "Yes, she has nice lips too but yours are nicer and besides I've never kissed hers."

I was lying on his chest so he couldn't see my face but the comment triggered me and I felt like I was going to cry. I didn't say a word but H burst into tears before I did and said that he was so sorry, that he didn't mean it the way it sounded, that it came out wrong and that it was a stupid thing to say. He kept crying and saying he was so very sorry and I hugged him and said thank-you for apologizing. We cried together for a few minutes and then I said, let's forget about this and watch our movie. I didn't say a word more about the A or ask if he liked Skanky's lips even though it was tempting but I know mine are SO much nicer anyway.

H continued to be very affectionate for the rest of the night and gave me a massage. However, didn't initiate SF which made me a little uneasy since we have been having SF daily. I asked him if he was tired and he said that he's had a rough couple of days and sometimes was not in the mood for SF but that he'd like to kiss and cuddle so we did.

I woke up late this morning and noticed he moved to the guest room but I heard him get up about 8am so perhaps he just got up to use the bathroom and went back to bed and didn't want to wake me so I'm not going to read too much into it.

We have plans as a family again today.


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