I'm the BS. H is the WS (or FWS). Although, he claims he's not your typical wayward but I have my doubts. More on that later...

Married 10 years. Living together for 18. I'm 40, he's 42. 3 children, D17, D15 and S8.

D-day 9/9/11

Backstory:

12 years ago we went through a difficult period. My H said he was no longer in love with me and moved out. A few weeks later, he moved back in but continued to blame all of our problems on me. He moved out again a month later and then came home a few weeks later. Finally on the third attempt to leave, I asked him to move out and wouldn't let him return until we sought counselling. The MC we saw said it was clear I was not to blame for all of our issues and that my H seemed to lack a commitment to a healthy R. He also added that while he was pro-marriage, I deserved better.

However, counseling improved our R and we planned our wedding, but 3 months prior, during an argument, H announced he did not love me enough to marry me. He changed his mind 3 days later but the damage was done. I was hesitant to go forward with the wedding but since we had children together, I decided that it was in everyone's best interest.

Our R started to go downhill again about 3-4 yrs ago. I didn't feel my H was meeting my needs, as he tended to be selfish about his activities and I felt he put very little effort into our relationship, except when he wanted SF. I tried many times to speak to him about my feelings but was ignored, or he would react with anger and insist that he did lot for me and therefore I should be happy. Eventually, after years of trying to speak to him, I withdrew. I even gave my H the "I love you but I'm not in love with you" speech. I think in my confusion and hurt, I had hoped he would finally pick up the slack and start trying, as I felt I had been the only one trying alone for too long. I stopped wanting to meet his SF needs, not out of anger, but because I no longer felt any emotional connection. SF was now once every 6 months.

My H said he got very angry about the lack of SF but never spoke to me about his anger or his needs and continued to pretend he was happy. Then, he met some skank at a hockey game in March 2010 and when she showed interest, he decided to look her up a couple weeks later. The PA began right away because she had no qualms about sleeping with a married man that she just met. (OW is also married and her H had an A which is why she started the A with mine.) He said OW was the first woman to hit on him in a way that made her intentions clear and that it could have been anyone. He said she didn't compare to me in anyway and that bothered him often, but that she was willing and that's all that mattered in the end.

Unbeknownst to me, the PA went on for approx. 6 months. During that time my H became hostile and disrespectful towards me, and treated our children with disrespect as well. Our oldest D came to me and said that her father was an angry, impatient man and she was upset with him for calling her immature when clearly he had his own issues of immaturity.

He ended the A in September/2010 because he wanted to work on our M, but now admits he didn't actually work on our M. In fact, he became so belligerent and mean, that I began to look into separation and divorce. Again, I tried to talk to him and he dismissed my concerns or issues. I felt trapped and unhappy but decided to hang in there for the sake of our children.

My H resumed the PA in mid-January/11 as he decided our M was done (but didn't bother to tell me). In Feb, OW told him she loved him. In March, he decided he was going to leave me because he said she made him feel wanted and stroked his ego.

In early May, he told me he wanted a divorce and would be moving out in June. The next day, he said he quickly realized that he didn't want a D and that's when he really began to panic.

I asked him repeatedly if there was someone else. He of course denied it. His father had an A on his mother, married his affair partner, then tried to cheat on her with my H's mother, who would have nothing to do with it. He left his second marriage by starting another A which he admitted to us and is currently still with that woman. My H always claimed his father made horrible choices and that he would never be like him. This is why I never suspected an affair. His self-righteousness regarding his father's mistakes had me fooled into believing he would never follow in his footsteps but that's exactly what he did...

Anyway, after realizing what a huge mistake he had made, my H immediately tried to break it off with OW, but this time she threatened to call me. My H believed that if I knew about the A, I would leave without a second thought, considering I was already unhappy with our M, and had often said in previous conversations that cheating was a dealbreaker for me. He figured the M was over either way so he might as well keep it up with OW. But then he would get depressed again because he didn't actually want a D but wasn't actually certain I still loved him. He said it was never a choice between us. He knew he wanted me but that he had ruined us.

It became obvious my H was falling apart. Drinking too much, sleeping a lot, crying often, acting depressed and distant, then affectionate and loving. He kept asking me repeatedly what I needed from him to be happy so it seemed to me he wanted the marriage but then he would act withdrawn again. He says now it was because he couldn't see a way out that wouldn't result in him losing me and that he was a mess over what he had done to us.

He tried again in June and July to end the A but OW kept threatening to call me. Then he began to make excuses as to why he couldn't see her as often hoping she would grow impatient and end it on her own. He said he only ever saw her 3 times a month but now it was down to 2. Instead, she began to get very angry and we started receiving hang-up calls at our home during the summer. (I feel foolish now because the thought never crossed my mind that it was an OW.)

During this time of confusion, my H picked up a copy of His Needs/Her Needs. He said it made him realize why he had an A and also that he had not been meeting my needs either. He said the book also confirmed why he never felt good about his R with OW because he knew a relationship that began as an A was one built on lies and deception. He said he also began to realize what a selfish unstable person OW was and that he had attracted her because he was acting very selfish at the time as well.

But he was afraid he had damaged our M beyond repair.

In Mid-August, he realized that OW would not go away without blowing the whole thing up. He said he had been going through the motions with her since telling me he wanted a D and just couldn't do it anymore as she was becoming more annoying, needy and pathetic. He sought counselling in an effort to figure out how to confess the A to me and to determine if our M had a chance of being saved. After he began the counselling sessions, (I found the receipts so I know he went to C) he stopped seeing OW completely but continued to promise via text he would see her again all the while knowing he never would. Her calls to the house continued (she used a blocked # so I thought it was a telemarketer).

In early September, after H hadn't seen her for 3 weeks, OW began to realize he had no intention of seeing her again and H finally got the courage to tell her it was done. She became hysterical and said it all wasn't fair to her and kept crying, begging and threatening. He said he knew he had to tell me before she did, but he was terrified.

Later that day, OW called our home and hung up but this time, didn't block her number. I wondered who it was and Googled her but after looking at her photo, I never suspected an A with such a plain woman.

The next day, I noticed the number was deleted and then I became suspicious. I asked H why he deleted the number and he confessed. Then broke down and sobbed. I asked if he was leaving for her and he said it was over and done and that it had been for awhile, but that she had been threatening him. I was stunned. Numb. It was like watching the horror movie of my life play out in front of me with me as the unfortunate star.

And that's our backstory. I'm not sure what I want anymore and that's why I'm here. I don't trust him. Obviously. But he claims he's different. That he wasn't always a horrible man who made selfish choices and that he got lost by his hurt and anger and that he deserves a second chance.

The initial pain, the shock and the numbness have subsided, and I find myself angry. Very angry. I don't know what to do with that. The anger is so strong. I was unhappy in my M and tried to tell him many many times so we could work on it or end it. He ignored my pleas for years until he was the one that was unhappy and then he tried to punish me. He admits the A was started to hurt me. He purposely set out to hurt me.

I don't know where to go from here but he wants me to try. He's asked me to try. He said it was never a choice between me and OW. That I am better in every way and once his anger subsided, that he knew he still loved me. That I am the love of his life.

He said he's not addicted. That he's not in a fog. That he never went through withdrawal with OW because his feelings for her were never that strong or real and that he wanted her gone a long time ago. I don't know what to believe...

I'm sorry this is all so long but I'm not very good at summarizing. I will try harder in that respect once I have all the details out...

I should also mention that the night of H's confession, our D15 overheard and told our other children. Our kids are extremely upset and our teenage D's are not really speaking to him even 2 months later. Our oldest thinks I should D him so this has affected them deeply.

And OW did not go away quietly and I'm concerned she has bunny boiler potential. I believe she was hoping I would kick him out immediately and he would come crawling back to her.

Anyway, she called our home 10 times in a row the day after D-day until he answered and screamed at her and told her she had no right to call our home and that it was done. She called again. More screaming.

Then she texted him with more begging and pleading. He again said not to call, text or email him ever again. She called his cell the following day and left a pathetic message about how he made promises to her and he wasn't being fair to her. He didn't call her back but texted her again to say to stop trying to contact him. She didn't listen and once again texted him so he sent a NC email from a temporary email he set up stating that he loved me and she was a huge mistake, and one he would regret forever. He gave me the password.

And I exposed to OWH's but I don't think he really cares about her or what she does so he's not interested in watching what she does...

Things were going well between us and we were spending a lot of time together talking and connecting. OW seemed to have disappeared... We both read His Needs/Her Needs, 5 LL's and SAA. H and I were also going through a very intense hysterical bonding phase (which I couldn't figure out until I read about it on the forum) and SF was 2-3 times a day. H was also being transparent, giving me his cell phone anytime I asked, email passwords, allowed me to look at cell phone records, search his computer, etc. He texted me often even if he was just going to drop off the kids and would send me photos from his location at all times.

Then 2 weeks ago, I was checking his phone and I noticed he had Googled OW. I was very upset. He said she had started texting him again about 10 days prior but he was afraid to tell me because things were going so well with us and he knew I was still ambivalent so he didn't want to add fuel to the fire. He said he deleted her texts which asked him to call. He kept deleting her texts and ignoring them but then finally realized she might eventually text while I was looking at his phone so he decided that he needed to respond and tell her to stop. Since he deleted her texts, he Googled her to get her cell #. The link did indicate that he was looking for her #. Obviously this was a huge set-back for me.

He claims it was a horrible error in judgment in not telling me about her texts but that it in no way was he trying to get back with her. He asked me to set up a poly if I don't believe him. He said he knows it looks bad depending on how you interpret it, but he is not addicted nor in a fog. That it was done to protect me from being triggered but that he realizes now it has set me back because now I am wondering what the texts said. He said all he said was there was nothing to talk about and he would not be calling her again. EVER. He said she begged but he was firm. She texted again a couple days later and again he was firm that it was done and he hasn't heard from her since. He said that he will never be in a relationship with that horrible woman again and even if I kick him out tomorrow, she will not be an option. That he would never again be the kind of man that would be with the kind of woman who would sink so low as to get involved with a married man and actually beg him to leave his family for her. He claims she's crazy and unstable and he doesn't want that in his life.

He says all the right things but I'm paranoid.

However unbeknownst to him, I changed the settings on his phone to save messages on the SIM card so I have been checking and there have been no texts from her since.

I think those are all the details and so I'm wondering if this recent incident a couple weeks ago is why I am feeling so angry and unsure about everything right now.

I don't want to go through a false recovery.

Others will be along soon to help. Your post is very long, and I recommend cutting it back to just a few paragraphs to make it easier to read.

This is a really good website with some very good down-to-earth no-nonsense posters. Listen to what they have to say. But in the meantime....

You are NOT paranoid. Your world has been shattered and you are trying to survive the horrible damage. Dr. H. has done extensive research on adultery and concluded that this is one of the most painful experiences people will undergo, to include rape and even death of a child. So of course you are reeling and hurting and extra-sensitive to any breaches of trust. You have completely lost any trust in your H. This is the normal fall-out from this form of betrayal.

Save the evidence you have collected in case it is needed later.

Don't let your H know about this website. Always log out completely and consider erasing the browser history as well.

Is the OW married? If so, her H needs to know immediately. It's good that your children know what is going in their home. They will put some pressure on their father for what's he done to the family.

You should also tell your family and friends. This is done for a couple of reasons. One is to get support for you. The other is for the purpose of accountability. People who care will pressure your H to completely end his infidelity.

The first thing your H should have done after sending the letter of No Contact is to make it impossible for the OW to ever reach him again. Change email, delete FB account, change telephone number. Until that's done, a gigantic hole exists in your recovery.

He must never contact the OW in any form for the rest of his life. This includes googling her. Many people have had to leave their jobs or even move away to avoid contact with the AP (Affair Partner.)

The next condition of recovery is that your H needs to be completely transparent with you. All passwords shared, cell phone switched whenever you want, all time and money accounted for.

You should create a list of Extraordinary Precautions for your H to adhere to. These precautions would include no female friends and no intimate conversations with women. You can get help with this. These are absolutely necessary to help prevent further infidelities.

The final condition is your H's commitment to rebuild the romantic love in your marriage. Just compensation for his adultery is that the marriage must be better than it was before. You both must learn to avoid Love Busters (LBs) and learn to meet each other's emotional needs (ENs.)

Raise your bar high for recovery. Your H must earn your forgiveness if he wants to keep his family intact.

We signed up for the online course, because of the accountability program, but if you can't afford that right now, at least get the books, Love Busters and HNHN, along with the workbook.

You should also get a copy of Surviving an Affair and read it thoroughly.

What you don't want to end up with is a crippled version of your pre-A marriage.

I think those are all the details and so I'm wondering if this recent incident a couple weeks ago is why I am feeling so angry and unsure about everything right now.

Well, it took long enough, but you finally got to your point, I think. YES, you are/should be concerned with the evidence of a freshening of your husband's affair. (More below)

I don't want to go through a false recovery.

You already have - several times if my math is correct!

Now to the point of my answer - Are you finally fed up enough with the selfish, immature and disrespectful crud that you're married to to do what has to be done? It seems to me you have not demonstrated any "backbone" to eforce what is rigorous with him in the entirety of your relationship. The "let's just get past this" mindset you have related in your own posting is NOT a good indicator that you are ready.

There will be great disruption in your life if you start to fight this fight now, after 18 years of acquiescence, so let's check the support factors -

• Are you gainfully employed?
• Do you have a family support structure to assist you?
• Will you LISTEN to the expert consellors here, even as some of their advice might seem at first counter-intuitive?

The MB affair-fighting plan is your best chance of saving your marriage, and the MB principles of creating a strong marriage can follow directly.

But it will not be easy, nor guaranteed. Are you willing to FIGHT?

....and oh, yes - this thread is mis-located. Click the "notify" button at the bottom of this note and ask to have the thread moved to "Surviving an Affair."

Welcome to Marriage Builders, Ellie,

Darn. Every time I read that a wayward think's he's 'not typical', I always bet that THIS time the wayward will be right. Lost again

Your WH is a garden variety wayward. It's great that he wants to recover and that you want that as well, but it looks like some tightening up of his avenues of contact is needed.

First, have you ordered Surviving an Affair? You can get the book on this website or at Amazon.

Have the two of you filled out the emotional needs questionnaire on this site? Check the links in the yellow box on your right.

It sounds like the two of you need to close off all the potential avenues of contact and you need to require a few things for your sense of safety. Some suggestions:
1. Change both of your cell phone numbers.
2. Change your home phone number.
3. Change all email addresses.
4. Equip all electronics that he owns with spyware (that he does not know about)See our Operation Investigate forum for ideas.
5. Make sure you have all of his passwords to every password-protected thing he owns.
6. GPS his car
7. VAR his car
8. Remove the internet from his phone. You can't google someone if you don't have Google.

**Ask him to sit for a polygraph so you know you have all your questions truthfully answered.**

Most of these things need to be done on the sly so that he is not aware of them. I wouldn't tell him about this website right now, either. You're still pretty early in recovery. If he relapses you don't want him to know about the spying tools we talk about here.

Your WH sounds like he truly wants to recover, but the google thing bothers me. Tighten all that up and have him sit for the poly.

I bumped *** this thread *** for you to read.

And .... What has this WF (wayward father) done to repair those father-child relationships? Nothing much, right?




You never know .... it's always good to expose to the other spouse.


OK


The part in red .... is bullcrap. WH is OK with hiding things he thinks you should not know. This is VERY bad.

Ask WH these questions:
"When is it OK to lie to your wife?"
"When is it OK to hide facts from your wife?"
"When is it OK to lie by omission to your wife?"




Refer back to the questions above.
Add this one:
"When is it OK to keep secrets between you and OW?"



Well, because he's not in an addictive fog, that makes him a CLEAR HEADED SNEAKY CREEP !!!

.... and that's bad


He does NOT say all the right things.
He's obfuscating and lying his butt off and he's NOT even foggy any more.

He's blaming his own adultery choice on OW's character.
OW is "that sort of woman" .... and he won't fall for "that" again.
WTH???

PLEASE DO NOT FALL FOR THAT !

You are not paranoid. You are (rightfully) suspicious. Your bullcrap meter is sounding.





Not from that phone, anyway.
Put a GPS on his vehicle too.



Your bullcrap meter is correct.

Bless you and your family.

EllieB -

About OW .....


This level of crazy means WH made "future together" promises to OW.
Lots of times.

Have you gotten the truth about these promises from WH?
This was NOT "crazy" OW's imagination.
He made promises.
Find out what they were.

I'm not sure how I've gone through a false recovery many times. I didn't know about the A in the summer so I never knew about the constant break-ups with OW. If I had known about the A in May when H dropped the D bomb, I would have asked H to leave our home. Trust me, I'm not the type to compete for a man. He would have been gone and I would have gone straight to my lawyer. There would have been no Plan A or Plan B for me.


Okay, clearly my posting is not indicating my true personality because that is not who I am at all. When we went through marital problems 12 years ago, I was hardly a doormat. My H moved out twice to live with his dad for 3 weeks each time. The third time he threatened to do this, I kicked him out of our home for 6 months until he committed to counselling. I was hardly a woman without a backbone. I packed up all his clothing and said if he wanted to live with his father so badly, go for it. He tried to convince me to let him stay and I said you moved out twice and threatened to end our R, so the third time you're out.

As for the A, the reason my H didn't want to tell me even though he knew he had to in order to remain in the M was because he knew I would end the M. The only reason I didn't kick him out when I finally found out was because I read HNHN and realized that I had not been meeting his needs either. (I read the book prior to finding out about the A).

If it wasn't for HNHN, I wouldn't even be considering forgiving him or remaining in this M. He would have been out and I would have put a retainer down on my lawyer, whom I saw immediately when he threatened me with D in May. No backbone? You've got the wrong lady. My H said he was terrified of me finding out because he would have bet money I wouldn't even consider giving him a second chance. I'm still not sure I want to but I'm at least considering it due to what I've read on this forum.

And when he threatened me with D, I didn't cry, beg or plead. I offered to pack up his clothing and to go through and divide the kitchen items to which he responded by breaking down and crying. I also suggested he buy a place instead of renting as it would be a better investment. He also responded to this suggestion with tears as well. Every time I suggested we tell the kids about the D, he always wanted to delay it. Doormat I am not. Nor do I beg, cry or plead with a man to remain in a R with me like OW.


Yes, to all of the above.

Yes, I have read SAA.


H and I have both done this...


I am working on the rest of the suggestions but I've been concerned about the charges showing up on our CC bill as we share all cards. He's read HNHN and knows I read message boards. I also found a link to this site bookmarked on his computer (from months ago) so I have to be careful as I don't want him to know that I can check up on him. I want him to believe he is safe so if he's still in an active A, I will catch him.


He told me to set this up so this is next on my list.




Yes, the google thing bothers me too.

I also wanted to you thank-you to you all for responding to my posts and for taking the time to help. I truly appreciate all the advice and suggestions.

1. Change both of your cell phone numbers. HIS IS A WORK CELL. SHE NEVER HAD MINE Change his number anyway. He can let his business contacts know that his number is changed.
2. Change your home phone number. BLOCKED OW'S # Change it anyway. She can call from another number.
3. Change all email addresses. SET UP FILTERS TO BLOCK HER Change it anyway. She can email from another email address.

I'd get the other items done, as well.

Does he have FaceBook?

Ellie, why does she still have his text number in the first place? Why has he not changed all his phone numbers (including your home phone #) and e-mail accounts? There is no excuse for not arranging this. After my affair, after a few weeks of frittering around, I even got my place of employment to change my number & delete it from the operators' directory. I repeat, there is no excuse whatsoever for his not arranging those changes.

Action talks, while bull**** walks. You tell your WH that it's time to put his money where his mouth is, by changing all his phone numbers & email addresses and giving you complete password access to all the new numbers & e-mails, and basically stop living a secret life in any respect. If he waffles or resists, then you tell him what my wife told me on the day I confessed my affair. (See below, 2nd quote in red text.)

Either he's serious about protecting you & his marriage -- in which case he'll bend over backward to help you feel emotionally safe -- or else he's not serious -- in which case you don't want a guy like him around anyhow. If he's sincere about wanting to build a better marriage with you, then why not give the two of you the best chance to do that with as little prospect of intrusion by OW as possible? If he's sincere, it's a no-brainer for him.

He's apologized in person as well as written the oldest two letters expressing remorse and explaining how wrong he was for the A. He also stated in the letters that he loves me very much and he loves our family very much and he will never again do anything so disgusting and immoral. And he texts them often to remind them that he loves them even though they don't respond.

As for the youngest, he talked to him and promised that he would never see OW again. He's also told him that a real man does not treat his W in that manner.

He said he will carry around for the rest of his life the guilt for what he has done to our children. He is worried our D's will never trust men and he is worried about our S because he has expressed fear that we will D.

He has told me that if I don't believe he would never see the skank again because he loves me and not her, then I should also know that he would never see her again because of his love for our kids. He said that they have already lost respect for him and he would rather kill himself than lose it completely.





I have asked him all the questions above and he said it's never OK. He claims he will tell me if she contacts him again. He says he has a fear of conflict which is what got him into this mess in the first place because he should have just had the guts to admit he was hurt and angry, instead of starting an A to punish me.



I did ask him this as well. I said that he was keeping me out of their secret circle. He said I now know everything so there are no longer a secret circle that I am not a part of. Yes, I need proof of this...



Yes, I wonder if I am living with a monster sometimes. A sneaky lying manipulative monster.




He doesn't blame her. Only that he NOW understands that any W who would want a MM isn't a W worth having, nor is the man who would be in an R with that kind of W, which is why he claims he will never be that kind of dishonorable stupid man again.

He's made it clear that she didn't force him or tempt him. He made the choice because I was not having sex with him and he didn't think I loved or cared about him or our M. But that was NOT an excuse because he was not meeting my needs either and I made the choice not to have an A even though I have had more opportunities than him.

He has said that he attracted a selfish loser because he was a selfish loser when he met her. He said her horrible character was a direct reflection of the man he was at the time. He attracted what he was putting out there - angry, petty, selfish and stupid.


I will.


Thank-you.

He told her he was leaving me and moving out of our home. He kept promising her he would move out. First it was June, then July, then August. By September she figured out he was lying to her which is why she apparently lost it.

He said he realized he had no intention of actually leaving after he told me that he was going to which is why he tried to break up with OW immediately.

He said the continued promises were in hopes she would grow impatient and go away without blowing the whole thing up. When that didn't happen, he sought counselling in an effort to figure out how to get out of it and still save our M.

He said there were no other promises aside from leaving me so they could see each other more often. He has given me her contact info and said I can ask her myself. That he doesn't fear me talking to her or her H because I now know everything but I don't want to speak to that lying skank.

I will ask him to change his work cell. He suggested changing the home # but I said I was fine with just blocking her number. She hasn't tried to call here again but I understand now why I should do this...

I will do the other items. I have been reading the Operation Investigate forum.

And no, he does not have Facebook. I do but I gave him access. He admits he is very worried I could have a revenge affair because he knows I get hit on a lot.

Good. I don't think it need be an occasion for argument between you & H. You're supposed to be on the same team here, fighting for your marriage. Put in those terms, changing those numbers is an easy thing for him to say "yes" to.

Thanks for chiming in, GloveOil. I've read a lot of your posts and find them very informative.

I have all passwords for his email, computer and cell phone. As for the email address, it is his name at his company so it can't be changed but I have the password so I have access.

He has said he has no interest in a second life ever again. The guilt was killing him and he started falling apart once he realized that he did not want our M to end. This was obvious to me but I had no clue it was because he was having an affair. I thought he was having a nervous breakdown because he looked terrible, got numerous eye infections, was gaining weight, slept a lot and often broke down and sobbed in my arms. He said his A was an exit affair and then he realized he still loved me and was just angry. That's when the whole mess came crashing down on his head.

Oh, I have said that if he EVER sees OW again even if it's just to chat, then he will be moving out the day I find out. And I mean that. I will not Plan A, nor will I Plan B. If it starts up again after he promised our CHILDREN that it would not, I will go straight to Plan D and he knows that without a doubt.

It was either a Recovery right away or nothing for me. I never had to give him that choice because he made it very clear that it had been over for weeks when I found out and that it would have been over sooner had she not been threatening.

Since I found out about her texting him, I have amended that boundary to include any form of contact (that I am not informed about) so he knows I'm not messing around.


He claims he's serious and that he knows it will take time for me to feel safe and he's prepared to go through that. He has said I can accompany him to any work related event.

He gives me his GPS location every time he leaves the house, even if it's to pick up the kids, and if he leaves his office to get a coffee, he texts me to let me know exactly when he leaves and when he returns. Then sends me photos of the coffee shop, what he's ordered, then another photo of him in the car.

But I will still put a VAR and a GPS in his car. I need to do that to feel truly safe. I realize that...

Okay, good points. I'm going to work on the other items on the list. I think I will be able to install spyware on his phone because he lets me look at it for long periods without watching me. I just hope I can do it without getting caught because if he's up to something, I don't want him to suspect anything.

I'm not even sure I can get past the A but I KNOW I can not get past it if it's still going on OR if it starts again. I want to be married to my H but I don't need to be married to him.


He's made it clear over and over again that he wants to save our M, and that he's grateful for me even considering trying to forgive him (I can't say I'm quite there yet, nor will I be anytime soon).

Our only setback has been the stupid google incident.

I did ask him about his email and he said it would be impossible to change when it's his name @ his company so he gave me the password instead. (I could always have all his emails forwarded to me as well). Besides, if he really wanted to email the skank, he could easily create another email account so I'm going to try to install a keylogger on his computer. I think that will make me feel safer about emails because that will cover any account that could be created.

Overall, WH been very patient and understanding. I've slipped and had more than a few AO's and he's responded by saying that he deserves my anger and that he hopes it will fade in time. I know I shouldn't be having AO's but the google incident sent me over the edge. I have been meeting his needs for SF and affection though. Even when I'm having a bad day and feeling the rage, I make myself treat him with love, even though I just want to scream at him and call him awful names.

Managed to get a VAR in H's car. Nothing to report. Same with his cell. Nothing suspicious on there either. I haven't done the GPS unit but he is with me 99% of the time as he decided to work from home for the last few weeks so that I feel safer. When he has gone out, it's only for a short time to do errands. However, he doesn't realize I've also been following him but he always goes where he says he's going and he's always been alone. I'm going to keep doing it for awhile though.

We've each identified our top EN's and we've both been doing a good job at meeting them. The hysterical bonding phase is still going strong 2 1/2 months later. 2-3 times per day some days.

There has been a bit of a backslid3 however...he offered to grab us coffee one morning and a friend of mine called. I knew he'd be gone at least 15 minutes so I thought I was alone. I admitted to her that although things were going well, that sometimes I still felt like leaving because I didn't feel the same way about H and that sometimes I looked at him and thought he was disgusting. Yes, all DJ's but I was venting and honestly sometimes I just want to wash my hand of the whole darn mess because I'm angry but I am trying. Well, what I didn't realize was that H forgot his wallet and I didn't hear him come in. He listened to the entire conversation.

He confronted me after and was really upset. He said he's noticed that I do look at him like he's disgusting sometimes and while he understands why, it's very painful. He started crying, saying that I deserved better and that he knew how this was going to end. That I would file for divorce in 6 months to a year anyway and I was probably only trying to recover for the sake of the kids. I got upset and told him that he shouldn't be feeling sorry for himself when he was the one who had the A and I said (or rather screamed) that I did deserve better. We started arguing and it was not pretty. It ended with him saying he would do me a favor and file for D next year so that I wouldn't have to be the bad guy. I asked if it's what he wanted and he said no but deep down he believed that it's what I wanted.

Later, he crawled into our bed and hugged me and said he loved me and he was so sorry for everything and then wanted to SF.

The next day, he apologized and admitted he had a bad reaction to overhearing my conversation but that he understands my feelings. He then added he knew it would take me a long time to stop feeling disgusted but he was willing to wait.

I don't know if I'm reacting to his flakiness or the flip flopping but I have been feeling distant for the last couple of days. He can't expect me to not have moments of doubt. After all he was the one who decided our M was over and decided to have an A. It's not like he fell into it. The man planned it. I understand my venting hurt him but threatening to D me because he fears I might D him in the end anyway is just plain ridiculous. I feel like he should be grateful that I'm trying and certainly don't need for him to make the D decision for me.

In so many ways, he's back to the loving, affectionate man he was before our marital problems started. I can definitely tell the difference between his behavior now and the way he was while in the A. It's so obvious, I feel like an idiot for not realizing something was up. Although, it's probably because he is right on some level -- I did stop caring about him and paying attention to him long before his A.

I guess this is the rollercoaster though because now I'm feeling blah again even though everything else seems to be on track.

Ellie, this conversation with your friend should never have occurred. If you feel this way you need to talk honestly with your husband about it, not outiders. Make this your own EP to keep your marriage safe. I never talk to anyone about anything that would be construed as a negative about my husband. My friends all doubtless think he's the perfect man. (Okay, maybe he is... ) I also discourage my friends from bashing their husbands to me. That kind of negative energy has a way of spreading like a cancer. Next thing you know, everyone's mad at their husband!

The moment you feel a negative vibe about your husband, go to your husband.

maritalbliss, I was concerned if I told my H that I thought of him as disgusting sometimes that it was a DJ? I'm cycling through some anger right now and I don't know why when he's being so sweet. I guess I thought venting to my friend was better than DJ'ing him but I understand your point. Duly noted.

Does he know you feel this way?
It sounds to me like you've been letting this build up. I'll bet you didn't go to sleep one night, loving him as usual, and then wake up the next morning feeling nothing but disgust for him. Somewhere in there you kept some negative emotions to yourself (probably because you didn't want the conflict of talking with him about it). You can see where that led.

I think you should really think about what you're feeling. Do you really feel disgust for him? It's not a DJ to share your honest feelings with your H. Just make sure you know what they are. And after you've identified that, be considerate of his feelings in your approach to dealing with the issue. I'd skip the "You disgust me" approach. Would you like it if he suddenly blindsided you with a statement like that?

I agree with the principle that you should not bash your spouse to your friends. This often leads to bad advice, and in a weakened emotional condition we're frequently likely to take it. Also it leads to positive reinforcement of negative emotions, which isn't where you usually want to go.

However, a sympathetic ear from a supportive friend is an incredibly valuable asset. It's very helpful to have friends who understand where you are and can help you. It's possible to discuss your emotions and situation without bashing your spouse; particularly while you're trying to recover, bouncing ideas off of friends about how to approach difficult issues can often provide the unbiased perspective you lack when you're emotionally invested in an issue.

An understanding friend or two can make all the difference in the world to your marriage! An unwise friend whom you trust who gives bad advice can also ruin an otherwise perfect recovery.

GREAT advice from both Door and MB!!!

I struggle with how to talk to my H about negative things too. It's something you just learn by doing. You use "I" statements, not "You" statements and talk about it in terms of what you need, not how bad "they" are. At the same time, you have to make sure to not talk around issues.

I've learned the value of discussing the issues directly in recent months. "When you ((do some thing)), I feel ((this way)); I'd love to brainstorm how to avoid situations that make me feel this way" is the kind of statement I tend to use. "I'd love it if you would not do X" is very useful when you're short on time to draw attention to your spouse's Love Busters, but somewhat less effective for us.

It's also very helpful for us to use the phrase "Let's brainstorm about this." It's a reminder to my wife that we want to find ideas we are both enthusiastic about, rather than tearing down the ideas we are not.

Yes, maritalbliss he knows that I'm going through an angry phase, as opposed to the sad phase I was going through after D-day. His response is that I should be angry and if the situation were reversed, that he would be angry too. (We're at 3 months right now so he thinks what I'm feeling is normal from what he's read).

Anyway, we talked again this weekend as per your suggestion. He didn't really have much to say aside from the fact that he understands. And I do feel disgust about his actions which I believe he understands as well. His response to these conversations is physical affection and then SF. He said he doesn't know exactly how to respond with words so he just responds by wanting to make me feel good and to be close.

During his A he was very cold to me and rarely showed me any physical affection so the difference is very noticeable. We also never had SF during his A because he was so mean and angry during that time and I had no interest in SF at all. I think my Love Bank was at zero too.

Doormat No More, the friend I was referring is supportive so I feel safe running things by her, but I will watch how I talk about my FWH in the future. Thanks for the great advice.

H and I talked about a poly again this morning and he's still all gung ho about doing it so I think I'm going to schedule one soon. I think I need it for my piece of mind. He also agreed to sign a post-nuptial agreement stating that if he were ever to have another A or speak or see OW again, that he will give up custody of the kids and I get the house, along with more than half of our assests. So I'm going to see a lawyer to have that drawn up. My mind can't stop harping on the "what ifs" even though everything seems to be going well so I think I need those EP's in place to feel safer.

I think it's time to ask my H to leave...

He gave me the "you deserve better" speech. He said I'll never trust him and that he wants a fresh start and that I deserve one too. I told him he was a coward.

There is no sign of contact with the skank.

He thinks he's doing this for me because I will come to this conclusion eventually. So he's saving me the time. Unbelievable.

And he claims he wants to live in our home and sleep in the same bed until our eldest D graduates in June. I told him he can leave immediately and he said that's not fair to our kids.

Oh, but him giving up on the family after what he did is apparently fair... I want to smack him right now.

I am not interested in plan A'ing him in the least after what he's put us all through. But he said he's not going to leave and that's he's not still cheating and will never cheat again. He just claims I deserve better and will leave him someday anyway.

I'm not sure what to do. Call my lawyer? Ignore him and look at this as another one of his tantrums. I'm so angry right now.

Ellie,

I'm not sure why you're in the recovery forum. I think SAA is probably a better place right now. You are still relatively fresh from Dday. I wouldn't recommend doing anything until the 6 month mark at least. You are still on the rollercoaster of emotions and honestly, he is too.

Do you two have a plan for recovery that you are following? If so, can you lay it out for us here?

You wrote a few posts back:

"He claims he's serious and that he knows it will take time for me to feel safe and he's prepared to go through that"

Is he still serious about this? Have you asked him about it?

CV

CV,

He claims he was serious about that comment at the time but now he's convinced that I will eventually call it quits so what's the point anymore.

He also claims I don't look at him in the same way which is probably true. But what does he expect from me? I'm still raw, angry and hurt. I still have bad days on the rollercoaster.

Today he found me crying in our closet and apparently it's all too much for HIM.


I still think he's selfish and foggy even if he's ended the A. He denies being foggy because he said he was the one who ended the A before I found out about it and he made the decision to recover our marriage before D-day so it was not a reaction to exposure. According to him these are the reasons he is NOT foggy but he still displays the same angry attitude he had at times during the A and recovery seems to be all about him. So I'm still seeing a selfish wayward.

As for our plan, we have been spending 15 hours a week UA time and have been working on meeting each others EN's. He claims I'm doing an excellent job but personally I think his efforts are lacking and from my reading, are probably the reason I feel disconnected and withdrawn at times. This all leads him to believe I will never be able to forgive him and get past the A and that I will always look at him like an untrustworthy snake.

I told him that he needs to try to make a more concentrated effort to meet my needs. His response tonight was "What's the point? I know where this is headed. You will eventually leave me!" He also claims that I deserve better (Yes!) and that I will find someone else who won't be so stupid as to cheat on me and will make me happier. It all comes across as fog babble to me at this point.

I can't believe he's actually telling me he's leaving in June and sees no problem with the hurt and pain it will cause our kids. Because according to him, we all need a fresh start. Is he really that immature as to believe that these kids need a fresh start without their own father? The stuff he is spewing is ridiculous. I admit I probably DJ'd him more than once tonight and there was definitely an AO. Ugh.

I guess the reason I am thinking of asking him to leave is because if he's going back to sleeping in the guest room and there is no more affection and meeting of EN's (because he says there's no point) then what's the point of having him hang around causing me more pain?

If we're not both committed to recovery then having him here is letting him cake eat even if his A is not active. I get to go through the pain of this betrayal and all that entails while watching him pretend all his well in his world.

One of our D's told me the other night that he goes along like nothings happened and everyone else is hurting. She said her old father is dead and she has no idea who this new one is...

It's not easy for us out here to to assist you, because it's very difficult to pin down exactly what it is you want as a resolution of your current situation, EB. That would be of no import, but it seems you are as much "at sea" as we are.

First it seems that you are vexed that your FWH seems to have given up on your marriage. That is a distinct (usually transient) reaction by a shamed FWS, when the enormity of their crime finally hits them.

Two posts later, you are apparently more angered by the fact that, though he has suggested leaving your home (to which you were seemingly opposed/dismayed?), he is relutant to leave on the accelerated schedule you would like!

Yes, recovery is supposed to have all the elements of a roller-coaster, EB, but that is meant in reference to the EMOTIONS of the period, not the overweaning PURPOSE!

DO YOU PLAN TO WORK TO RECOVER YOUR MARRIAGE? If so, then stop listening to his disjointed words, and instead ensure that he hears YOURS. When he says "I should leave for your benefit," your answer should be, "Let me worry about my welfare; you have work to do to repair our marriage, and I demand that you do THAT, instead of turning tail!"

(I'm sorry my post might seem harsh, EB, but you are the one I'm writing to; if FWH was here, he'd get BOTH barrels.)

NG,

Yes, I suppose I am all over the place. I'm angry because this is not the first time, he's pulled the whole "it's going to end eventually so what's the point anyway" card. Is it too much for him to stop relying on my feelings about all this and show some strength?

He's not reading this board or putting in much effort to educate himself anymore. Yes, he's read HNHN but he hasn't bothered with SAA. Then because I'm having a couple bad days (the holidays were triggering me like crazy)...he's ready for divorce. I guess I find his focus on his guilt and what everyone thinks of him as selfish at this point. He should be concentrating on helping us all heal. He should have asked our daughters for forgiveness for what he stole from them too. Not just an email apology about what he did to me or some texts. He hasn't even spoken to them in person about this yet. I guess I'm just feeling frustrated and questioning his commitment which leads me to question mine.

I never realized this was common. I just thought he was looking for an out so he could be free to do whatever he wants and not have to worry about all of us and our "pain".

So I should ignore this outburst? He claims he's 100% sure this is his FINAL decision. I've heard that before too but I'm getting tired of the threat.


Well, he claims there is no point in working on our M then in the next breath, he's going to stay for 6 more months. Isn't that cake eating? I'm wondering what's next, no more transparency and him contacting skankho or getting involved with someone else because it no longer matters. I don't want to live with him under those circumstances. It feels emotionally abusive and I'm already depressed.

The months when he was vacillating between wanting a divorce and working on our M were hard enough and that's before I even knew of the A. Since D-day, it's been all about NC letters and transparency and paranoia and I'm just emotionally exhausted by the last 8 months of upheaval he's thrust upon this family. 6 more months of living with him while he wants "out" and goes back to being distant seems like torture.






How can I work on in when he made it clear yesterday that it was OVER? I won't beg.

And I didn't say those exact words but I did tell him that he stole my choices during his A and he was not going to steal this choice from me. He said he's going to make the decision for me because he can see that I'm agonizing over it and I'm only trying to do the right thing for the kids. He said I always do the right thing and that I should go out and be happy. I said that's the attitude that got him in this mess in the first place. He keeps saying the kids will be fine eventually and I will thank him someday when I find a man that makes me happy. I told him that seeing my kids (especially my youngest) in more pain over the break-up of our family will not make me happier even if I find a wonderful man. He's adamant that divorce is the best thing for ME. I wonder if it's really all just about him because he keeps mentioning wanting a clean slate. As if he will ever really get a clean slate with 3 children and an ex-wife!


No worries. It didn't seem harsh at all and I can take it anyway. You gave me some things to think about...

I can't take much more of his drama. First the divorce threats in the spring and summer, then finding out about the A in the Fall and now it's back to D threats again. My Love Bank is overdrawn.

I need a man to lead this family not destroy it.

Ellie, I would ask him to participate in this program and if he won't do it, then you need to make plans to go into Plan B. There is no plan here so he has given up. You need to have a workable plan that makes sense to him.. There is no hope here because there is no reason to believe you will ever recover. I don't think he gets it.

You are sitting in the waiting room of the most effective recovery plan that I know of. It really does work. But you have to actually use it.

My suggestion to you would be to get marriage counseling with Steve Harley. Have SH assess your situation and give you a real plan of action. If your husband then refuses, you can go into Plan B and file for divorce.

Why do you think that is? Are you SURE he is not still in contact? Do you have all the truth?

You shouldn't live with him if he refuses to recover your marriage. REconciliation after an affair is coningent upon certain things and recovery is one of the main things. If he won't engage in recovery, there is no reason for him to be hanging around. ITs obvious to me that one of the main reasons this is going nowhere is due to his failure to meet your needs.

Melodylane, At this point, it seems pointless to ask him to participate in any program because he's done. Even our kids pain doesn't seem to phase him. Maybe he's just one of those men who doesn't value his family. I can't believe the man he's become because I never thought he'd say some of the things I hear coming from his mouth. He seems to think our kids being hurt is the price he has to pay for his A. No, it's the price they have to pay!

Ellie, I would NOT go for him living in the back bedroom either for 6 months. For him to stay there and hang around after refusing to work on the marriage would be a deal breaker for me. I would be packing his bags. Why wait around and volunteer for a death of a thousand cuts?

I have been spying but he did get a new phone a couple days ago and I haven't had the chance to get eblaster on it yet. I'm trying but now with this recent setback, I wonder if he will let me look at his phone because he will probably say "what's the point?"

As for ow, he sent her a Cease and Desist by registered mail a few weeks ago after she started harassing him again via email. She can access his email through his company website no matter how many times it gets changed. She said she was going to hurt his family and destroy us to get back at him. He thinks she's a horrible person given her behavior since being dumped so while he said he understands my concerns, she is not a threat to our M. He said he didn't leave for her when he had the chance and certainly wouldn't choose her over me ever. He claims he doesn't want to see, speak to her or hear from her in any way ever again which is why he sent the C and D.

I don't think this is about her at all. He said he's had doubts about my ability to forgive and move on from the beginning.

Truthfully, I have my doubts as well. He's caused so much damage to me and my kids and seems "lazy" about cleaning up his mess. This is making me lose respect for him rapidly.

This is what I told him. It's too painful for me to have him here if he's not working on our M. He insists he doesn't want to leave until our eldest graduates. I said he needs to leave immediately and he got angry and said he will get legal advice first then.

Then he's back to calling me honey and telling me it's all for the best for me that we divorce.

I haven't spoken to him today because he's still in bed. He claims he's depressed over all the pain he's caused and that's why he keeps sleeping so late after we have a difficult discussion.

I agree with this totally, 100%! Ever heard the phrase "without a vision, the people perish?" You guys need a solid plan to work towards. Goals. Something that makes solid sense for him.

I guess I keep expecting him to come up with a plan. I try to follow MB but I'm not always successful. I'm still reeling some days and it feels like he's waiting for me to fix it and I suppose I want him to fix it.

I think I have been meeting his need for SF and affection above and beyond. SF everyday for 2.5 months, sometimes more than once a day. A couple times 3. He said this was the biggest reason he used to justify the A. I wouldn't have SF for him for 6 months at a time sometimes or more (which is true) so he found someone who would. I wasn't attracted to him during that time period because he frequently DJ'ed me and cared only about his needs.


We were supposed to go out for dinner last night and I said I wasn't up to it and then he found me crying and suddenly we're getting a D because it's what I truly want and I just don't know it yet. I was honest with him about having doubts sometimes because I thought he wanted me to be O&H and now he's throwing it back in my face. Should I lie when he asks if I have doubts about recovery?

He also mentioned last night that I think he's disgusting again. He won't let that one go. And I did call him a sleazeb*g when he told me (weeks ago) that skanky ow met his need for admiration because she thought he was wonderful. I got angry and I reacted by saying "Oh so she thinks a cheating sleazebag is wonderful? What is wonderful about a man who would cheat on his W rather than deal with the problems in their M?!" SO these are the things he remembers and focuses on. Why doesn't he focus on my efforts rather than my mistakes? I mean after what he did to me and to our children, did he expect me to be calm and loving all the time during recovery. I'm doing my best. Sigh.

Last week, he said he loved me so much and I was the love of his life and he would be devastated without me. This week, he thinks it's best we divorce.

I am going to look into counselling with the Harleys next because I have no idea where to go from here. If he's not on board then I guess it's Plan D.

Ok, but your ability to forgive is entirely contingent upon HIM. Not you. What is his ability to EARN your forgiveness? See, you and your husband have this all backwards. "Forgiveness" is not a welfare entitlement for selfish waywards. They are not food stamps. Forgiveness is something to be earned, not an entitlement.

So when he says he "doubts your ability to forgive" him, he is just saying he doubts his ability to EARN it.


This makes me believe he is seeing her or speaking to her again. The fact that he says she is no "threat" tells me that he is trying to divert your attention.


Do you typicall ASK to see his phone? Did he know you had eblaster on the last one? And why did he get a new phone?

Frankly, your husband has all the signs of a fogged out wayward who is still in an affair. If not with this ho, perhaps a new one.

Does he not agree that he was a sleazebag when he was having his affair with the OW? Your H is VERY WAYWARD and there is something wrong here. See, when a WH is serious about recovery, he shows remorse. Your H is cocky. He indicts you for making truthful statements about his affair. That is WAYWARD THINKING.

If I told my H he was a sleazebag when he had an affair, he would agree. BECAUSE IT IS TRUE.

Your H wants you to "forgive" him even though he has not repented. He does not even admit he was a sleazebag. So how can you forgive? I think he is either in contact now or he has started a new affair. He is foggy and wayward for some reason.

How can I work on in when he made it clear yesterday that it was OVER? I won't beg.

You have children, EB. Were you NEVER forced to take from them a toy or other implement and then to endure their pouting and spite-filled performances?

Well, WH is going through the same withdrawal. He enjoyed playing with his alternate toy, while still maintaining the benefits of having "hearth and home" awaiting him at other times. So now he no longer gets to do the "horizontal hustle" with skanky, but he's pretty sure he screwed up his main support system as well. We see this A LOT here, but usually the genders are reversed - with the WW doing the "woe is me" act, and the BH asking "What the HELL do I do now?"

What we do in those cases is urge the BH to suck it up, and establish a serious Plan A. You'd not be "begging" him to get his head out from his rectum, but you'd be presenting him with an attractive home to come back to. Plan A's are not highly recommended to BWs such as yourself, because......it's frickin' HARD, and most BWs can't maintain it long enough to effect the change.

Think about it. If you don't think you can pull it off, (imagine 4 - 6 weeks), or truthfully do not care to make the huge effort, then pull the pin on the Plan B grenade as previously advised.

Has your husband resumed his affair again because he decided - once again - that your "marriage is over?" Apparently, having an affair is right there on his list of entitlements right under his "forgiveness" entitlement. He feels entitled to have an affair if he makes a personal decision that the marriage is over.

Has that thinking changed at all?

I completely agree and this is what I've told him. He thinks he has been meeting my needs for affection and O&H and we have been spending a lot of time together. He is very affectionate. Compliments me often and is acting loving until he thinks I'm withdrawing and then he's negative again.

Every time we have a nice time together (like dinner, shopping, walks, etc.) he tears up at some point in the day and apologizes again. He said he wishes he just would have had to courage to talk to me rather than make the worst mistake of his life. So some days he seems very in and very remorseful but I'm dealing with triggers still and if I'm down, he gets down. He should be helping me. Not waiting for me to make him feel safe.

What makes him feel this is hopeless? ARe you bringing up the affair over and over again?

I honestly don't think so. I have a VAR in his car and he's still working from home. We are together most of the time or he's with our kids.

It was me that brought up the skank as I asked him if she would ever be in his life, regardless if we were together and he said never. I asked if she was a threat to a marriage so that was my word and he said she was not.

He's made it clear ow was second best and I believe him because I withdrew from our M first. I was even contemplating divorce so when he says he was with her only because I didn't want him, I do believe him because I know how I was treating him and the state of our M prior to and during the A. He said he always only wanted me and she was the first women that showed him so attention. When she wanted him to chose, he picked her because I hadn't had SF with him in a year and he thought I had no romantic love left for him. Then when he asked for a D and I said maybe we should stay together. He was shocked that I wanted to save the M because he honestly thought I would agree to D. That's when he started trying to end the A and her threats started.

So I believe him when he says he prefers me over her. I'm a lot more physically attractive then skankho and he said that he always compared her to me and wished it was me that wanted him. Like I said, I know the state of our M before the A and I actually didn't care that he was no longer bothering me for SF so I truly didn't want him. It was the threat of D that shocked me into acknowledging our problems and working on my half of the marriage problems.

As for the phone, his kept shutting off randomly and was damaged so he needed a new one. No, he did know about eblaster and yes I ask to see his phone sometimes. I also blocked ow's cell on his phone (which I never told him) and every time I check it's still blocked.

Yes.

He just woke up so I will be back later.

I understand. This is an emotional nightmare. I remember it well, what it was like for me. Just you following the plan will help you heal yourself, but it won't heal your marriage unless you are both working it. Neither of you will fix it on your own, or just waiting for the other to do it. You need to have a good solid recovery plan that you are both working TOGETHER. Building a relationship takes 2 people and rebuilding still takes 2 people.... and a lot of work... You need a plan of action so you aren't hanging curtains before the walls are finished (if you know what I mean).


This is why the plan for recovery is so important. See, the reason he had an affair wasn't because there was no SF everyday, it was because he had poor boundaries and made poor choices. Part of working a good plan is good communication. You need to sit down and discuss your needs and his needs and work on how to meet those mutually without the other feeling used.



I have a feeling this is much the way you did things in the pre-A marriage? He knows (or thinks) that you don't want a D and throws it out there as a way of manipulating you. I think what you really need to decide is if you are going to work on your marriage and focus on that. As hard as this sounds, you are going to have to work through your emotions a good 6 months before you begin to see a turning point in recovery.


Use this as an opportunity to talk with him. The feelings of disgust can be overcome. You can't DJ him and expect him to not feel anything. That's realistic. You guys need to learn to talk about things in a civil manner without threats and without hurting each other. It is not recovering when you do this. If you guys are having trouble communicating about things, get a notebook and write them out. Let it sit for a bit and then go back to it and review it. Make sure there aren't any DJ's in there and then let the other person read it and respond back in the notebook until you can speak in a beneficial way to each other.



Counseling is a great idea. Call them ASAP.

CV

Ellie, if you are bringing up the affair over and over again, this is a big part of the problem. It keeps you triggered and makes him feel hopeless. Here is what Harley told another BW who kept bringing it up:

He admits he was a sleazeb*g during his A. His concern is that I still look at him like that and that a part of me always will...

Ellie, I would check into counseling with Steve Harley. AND...agree to stop bringing up the affair to your husband. Would that make him feel better? There is no good reason to toss out the marriage if you are both committed to recovery. I think he might just be extremely frustrated.

I have been trying to meet his EN's and looking back, I was plan A'ing for 4 months in essence before I even knew about the A. I'm assuming that's partly why he ended the A before d-day.

As for now, yes I haven't exactly been the poster girl for MB. I'm still obsessed about the A and probably bring it up too often but I still have questions. When do you have enough details about the A to let it go? I know who, where, when and how often. He's told me the reasons he used to justify it. He's admitted it was horribly wrong and that his reasons were not an excuse. He admitted to a sense of entitlement and making very poor choices which I didn't deserve regardless of the lack of SF. He admitted he buried his love for me and that the reality of D scared him which is why skanky got the boot. Is there anything else I need to know?

I know who, where, when and how often. He's told me the reasons he used to justify it. He's admitted it was horribly wrong and that his reasons were not an excuse. He admitted to a sense of entitlement and making very poor choices which I didn't deserve regardless of the lack of SF. He admitted he buried his love for me and that the reality of D scared him which is why skanky got the boot. Is there anything else I need to know?

Yes, you need to know why, knowing all that, you still bring up the affair to the detriment of your marriage's outlook!

EB, a few weeks ago I spent some time putting together a conceptual framework about why some BSs torture their WSs emotionally, when doing so is very much in opposition to their own best interests:

Forgiven? Not yet!

I didn't know at the time why I felt compelled tp do it, but I think it might be very important to you now. Read it, and let me know if it speaks to you.

Well I hope that thinking has changed. We have spoken about it and he said it was an immature, mean and a terrible thing to do, and that I didn't deserve to have my choices stolen. He told me his sense of entitlement was about his ego and how I wronged him but that he will never allow himself to be that angry or arrogant again, nor will he be alone with any women (aside from relatives) other than me. He does understand about boundaries but also says he only ever had poor boundaries with women during the time he met skankho. He was willing to take a poly to prove there has never been any other A's or any inappropriate R's with other women at any time during our M.

He said he did some reading on A's after he asked me for a D because he had doubts about skankyho the entire time. He said it never really felt right. After doing some reading, he said he understood that the feelings of "wrongness" were not only because he still loved me but because it was a fake relationship based on lies and deceit and that the excuses people used to justify A's were also horribly wrong.

He claims he thinks very differently now then he did when he was justifying his A but how do I really know? He has read about A's as I can tell by what he says. I know he's read HNHN and got some of his info from that book. BUT how do I really truly know he's changed other than what he says? Because he's certainly negative about recovery at times.

Ellie, I admit I am sooo confused with your situation. I think with these recent posts the problem might be that you are driving your husband crazy by continually bringing it up. You are keeping the affair front and center.

What is your question that has not been answered? Once he answers your questions and you have all the facts, it should never be brought up again. Has he answered all your questions?

Thanks, cv. I think this is where we or rather I am going wrong. I am DJ'ing him or he thinks I'm DJ'ing because he says I am looking at him differently. He says he can tell I am having negative thoughts about him because of the look on my face. I guess he is right. He did admit it hurt him that I might always think of him as disgusting, ugly or sleazy. I guess I am keeping his doubts alive. He did make it clear that what he really wants is for us to recover but he does not think I can recover so he said he's letting me go because he loves me. It sounded like fog babble to me but he did have tears in his eyes and said he truly did love me and that's why this was going to be so hard but that it was right... so maybe there is some truth in there.

I'm not sure where's he's at today. He got up, didn't give me my usual hug and kiss and acted distant (I was expecting this) but then asked me if I slept and sat with me in the living room and watched TV. Now he's cleaning toilets. He cleans to make me happy. He's told me that in the past so I'm not sure if I should bring anything up right now and just let him approach me.

I like your journal idea.

NG, thank-you. Yes, that post really resonated. You are describing me to a T. I do say I want to recover but my next thought is maybe I can never get over this...

I admit I do wonder at times if I can.

I am still so angry. I love my H but he's right, the way I look at him has changed. Our eldest DD said it's like her old father is dead. I guess in some ways I am wondering who this new man is...My H used to be the most honest, kind man and during his A, he became mean. I noticed but never connected the dots.

I'm scared it's changed him forever.

MelodyLane, yes I think you are right. I am bringing it up and even when I don't, he senses I am thinking about it. Or he brings it up by apologizing to me again over dinner and getting teary-eyed. He apologizes a lot. Almost daily.

I'm not sure if I have all the answers to my questions yet. Because I need details. For instance the other day, I wanted to know if he bought her anything for Valentines Day or if they celebrated together. Do I need to let details like this go if they just upset or trigger me? I feel obsessed with the details. Ugh.

Oh, and of course I told him last night that he was selfish for wanting to start over with a clean slate and abandon his children. He said if he was selfish then I didn't want him anyway. So these are the kinds of conversations that lead to DJ's too because I get angry at his foggy justifications for D and his self-centeredness when he says the kids will be just fine because we will co-parent together and help them. His double talk is aggravating. If I say his thinking is flawed then he responds that's why I shouldn't want to be with him.

This kind of talk is what makes me angry because it's come up more than once and then my doubts are intensified.

NG, thank-you. Yes, that post really resonated. You are describing me to a T.

I thought it might. And I'd like to present the following proposition:

If your marriage is not going to spiral down through the porcelain portal,
one of you is going to have to step up and (as we very often say to BHs)
"Be The Hero".

We'd really like it to be him, but he's not here. Why him? Because
1) he broke it; he should fix it, and
2) it's more effective if the WS is carrying the load.

But without one of you creating a discontinuity in your joint marital vector,
between your (expressed) resentment and his (suppressed) self-loathing,
the outlook is not good.

Yes, this all makes sense but as you said, it's more effective if the WS is carrying the load. I haven't been perfect but I have been trying and I feel like I've put more into recovery than him. He hasn't sought out info on how to help me get through this or how to help his daughters. It's like he's here and that should be enough.

He shot a big hole in me and our family and now he wants to wash his hands of us all because it's too hard on him?

That's what makes me doubt if he is worth it. I want him to want to do anything and everything to fix this family.

He should care that much about us because he certainly didn't during his A. He used to be that kind of man (or so I thought) but it seems like that man has been replaced by this weak, selfish, cowardly man who thinks that running away and D is about him getting a clean slate. It makes me feel sick when I think about who he has become. He is going to ruin his R's with his DD's over this if he chooses D. I know their feelings and if he doesn't step up, he will lose them for years.

If the thought of losing his children's respect and their pain doesn't motivate him, will anything really at this point? It's like the man I was speaking to last night had no soul.

Ellie, one of the first steps of recovery is giving you all the facts about the affair. That should be done in the first week. Will he agree to have one last session with you if you agree to never bring it up again? You have a right to know everything about the affair, but he should not be beaten up over and over again for it. Would he agree to answer all your questions if you agreed to do this?

And he needs to do much more than answer pointed, direct questions like a hostile witness. Rather, he needs to be a storyteller and paint you a complete picture.


When he senses you are thinking about it, that is time for him to reach out and comfort you.

This is why I think he would greatly benefit from counseling with Steve Harley. Steve will tell him to focus on giving aide and comfort to his victim and nursing you back to health. Your H seems somewhat childish, but I think Steve could influence him to man up here.

I think before yesterday night and his "we need to D for my benefit" speech, he would have been willing. Now he might just say "What's the point if we're D'ing anyway?" Actually, with his mindset right now, that's what I will get.

And I doubt he will be the "storyteller" because he claims he doesn't remember all the details from a year ago and that it was just friends with benefits and not a love affair affair at first. It became an EA for only 2 and a half months this year and that it wasn't all that passionate or romantic even then because he always had doubts about the skank. He has told me how it started, what they did when they saw each other, where they went, how often they spoke and texted. They rarely saw each other but we have gone through the calendar and he's given me as many meeting days and places as he can recall. He said in the past he will answer any question as long as I'm sure I want to know.

For instance, he said he actually intended to start the A as a sick need for revenge because I had rejected him and as horrible and evil as that sounds, that I had the right to know that he did it on purpose and didn't fall into it like so many people. That was hard to hear. I didn't DJ but I did cry so I don't feel he spared me any of the ugly truth as far as I can tell. He also told the skank that he didn't like me.

Not sure what else I need right now but a question might pop up in my mind later or tomorrow or next week. And I worry that because he lied to her and lied to me, that he's still lying so of course I ask the questions too often for his liking.

And yes, he does comfort me when I trigger but he seems numb to my pain. He actually said there's been so much pain lately, that he feels numb so I'm worried that now his need to run is getting stronger because avoiding conflict is an issue for him. He said the A was due in part to his need to avoid conflict and escape. I'm not really sure he's learned that much from this mess if he now wants to avoid pain and conflict by leaving.

And he's right if you don't start moving forward.

The more forward you move, the less triggered you will be and the less you will feel this way about him.

He really does need to man up and yes, I would describe him as childish. Although, he will just say that if he's childish then I will be better off without him. He seems to have no desire to be a better man right now because he said he's already the bad guy anyway so what's the point. He needs to grow-up. I feel like emailing his father (even though he's a two-time cheater) and telling him to tell him to man up. Because despite his past, I do think that he would not be impressed that his son is planning to leave his family. I have a feeling he would definitely be on the side of me and his grandchildren.

Anyway, it seems my H is feeling terribly sorry for himself right now. Skanky thought he was wonderful despite his cheating lying ways. Who knows? Maybe going back to that life is looking good right now. If that's who he really is then we ARE better off.

That said, I acknowledge that I have been LB'ing him by bringing up the affair too often. And he did overhear me speaking to a friend about him looking disgusting to me at times.

So I'm not sure if I go to Plan B immediately? Or if I give it a few days and see if he comes around if I stop bringing up the A and offer him some affection?

He's disappeared into the basement and has not spoken to me since this morning. I'm clearly being ignored which I think is incredibly cruel of him. So I'm not sure if it's going to be seen as pursuing or begging if I try to reach out....

Exactly. I have told him that recovery and healing takes time. Prior to last night, he said again he knew it would take time and he was willing to go through that with me. Now, he's back to claiming time won't matter as I will D him eventually (because apparently he has a job with the psychic network). This not the first time he's gone down this road and he admits it has been on his mind from the beginning so which statement is the truth? That he was willing to go through it? Or that it's going to end in D eventually so why bother anymore? Nice to know how worth it he seems to think me and his children are...

We are barely 3 months past d-day! What does he expect from me?! A promise written in blood that I will not D him ever??

Is there any way you can afford Steve Harley of Marriage Builders? He runs about $200 a session, but I think he could knock some sense into him. IF he could do that, we could help you guys with a plan for recovery.

You wouldn't need to get your husbands agreement now because you should counsel with Steve ALONE first. Steve would tell you what to say to get him on the phone with him.

Yes, I can afford it. I don't want to do it with the children home so I will wait until they're back in school or out for the day but yes, I think this is my best option before I make another decision. Not sure if I will bother asking H to get on board with this right now because I don't feel like being shot down yet again with his, "what's the point if he's made the decision to D?" excuse. Maybe Steve will have some advice for me on if I should ask him to participate at this point.

I'm angry right now and have been tempted to ask him to leave today if he's going to ignore me and truly wants a D but I'm trying to maintain control.

I'm worried that ignoring him is going to tempt him into contacting skanky.

My anxiety is getting worse. He's still in the basement ignoring the children and I. I wonder if he's texting her now...

It's driving me crazy that I didn't get eblaster on his new phone before all this went down. I really don't feel safe right now.

What a difference this is from the man who last week was saying he was 100% committed to this M.

I am even more confused. H wrote me a letter.

In it, he said I was beautiful, intelligent, thoughtful and sexy and the grace I had shown him was amazing. However, he said, he is not worthy of my forgiveness and I deserve someone who will not do what he did to me and hurt me so badly, and who values me more than he did. He said he was very sorry and that he loved me.

He's been affectionate again but he started crying while we were hugging and said he was sad.

Is this just another dip in the rollercoaster of recovery? I'm not sure if he's still saying he's done or if he's looking for me to tell him that he is worthy? Maybe the guilt and shame is kicking in big time. Or he's looking for an out...

I've decided to give him affection and UA time today, not mention the A and call for telephone counselling next week.

You need to decide to give him affection and UA time every day if you want your marriage to survive. The truth of the matter is, there is no promise of a better life with a new spouse. If anyone can have an affair if the conditions are right, then you are as much at risk with a new spouse as with a repentant old one.

Do you want a good marriage with him?

If so, tell him. Tell him that yes, you feel all these things, but you WANT to work to make it better with HIM. Tell him that you are really interested in recovery and not a half-baked version of it. Otherwise, you will not progress.

CV

You need to decide to give him affection and UA time every day if you want your marriage to survive.

THANK YOU, CV! It was getting awful lonesome espousing the "now's the time to fight for your marriage" tactic to EB!

EllieBlue, what CV is suggesting is the Plan A option I mentioned to you almost 27 hours ago. It is NOT easy. But, unless your WH is a master actor, and his "funk" is in reality a disguise to shield his ongoing affair with skanky, you have a good shot off pulling him back to your family.

Have you read the Plan A guidelines yet?

Sounds good! Don't talk about the affair anymore, Ellie. And get hooked up with Steve Harley or his sister, Dr Jennifer Chalmers. I don't understand what is going with your husband but I get the sense that he can't stand to have the affair rubbed in his face anymore. And I can't say I blame him.

Yes, you are are all right! I do need to do a better job of meeting his EN's and not withdrawing because when I do the results are obvious. The issue is that I get triggered horribly and withdraw. Then eventually H withdraws and we head into a downward spiral that ends with his becoming negative about Recovery.

Yesterday, I reached out to him after his letter and instead of getting into a long discussion, just hugged him, told him I loved him and asked if he wanted to go out with the kids and I. He was back to being affectionate and attentive within hours. We did some shopping for some new things for our home and grabbed dinner.

H was obviously down for most of the day and I could tell he was still feeling sad. I asked him if he was okay and he said he was feeling depressed. He then added that this all affected him too even if he didn't show it as much as I did but he explained that he was just as depressed about what he had done to our M.

Later, we snuggled in our bed and talked about songs that reminded us of each other. I didn't bring up the A but as we were watching a movie, H commented that the star of the film had always reminded him of me but that I had better lips. I said she has nice lips too and H responded, "Yes, she has nice lips too but yours are nicer and besides I've never kissed hers."

I was lying on his chest so he couldn't see my face but the comment triggered me and I felt like I was going to cry. I didn't say a word but H burst into tears before I did and said that he was so sorry, that he didn't mean it the way it sounded, that it came out wrong and that it was a stupid thing to say. He kept crying and saying he was so very sorry and I hugged him and said thank-you for apologizing. We cried together for a few minutes and then I said, let's forget about this and watch our movie. I didn't say a word more about the A or ask if he liked Skanky's lips even though it was tempting but I know mine are SO much nicer anyway.

H continued to be very affectionate for the rest of the night and gave me a massage. However, didn't initiate SF which made me a little uneasy since we have been having SF daily. I asked him if he was tired and he said that he's had a rough couple of days and sometimes was not in the mood for SF but that he'd like to kiss and cuddle so we did.

I woke up late this morning and noticed he moved to the guest room but I heard him get up about 8am so perhaps he just got up to use the bathroom and went back to bed and didn't want to wake me so I'm not going to read too much into it.

We have plans as a family again today.

Family time is good, but make sure you are spending time together with just the two of you. And no affair-talk.

I didn't bring up the A yesterday but H did. We had a nice time as a family and then H invited me to cuddle in bed and talk. He asked for a hug and I noticed his body tense up and I looked at him and he was crying. I asked him if he was okay and he started sobbing uncontrollably. He was wailing loudly and it looked like he was in incredibly pain. After he caught his breath, he started to say again how sorry he was for all the damage he had done to our family and that if he could back in time, the A would never have happened. He was gasping for breath and his heart was beating so fast, it was scary. He kept saying, "I'm so so sorry, Honey. I'm so sorry."

It took him a long time to calm down.

But when he did he explained that he had tried to talk to our eldest DD the other day and she told him to leave her alone. Then he started sobbing again and he said he's destroyed his relationship with his baby girl too. He said our family falling apart and it's all his fault. I'm hurt, his kids are hurt and everyone is walking around in pain.

It was mentioned that the guilt will hit him hard when and if he's truly repentant. I hope this is what is happening...

But after being lied to for so long, the paranoid side of me is thinking that he is only sorry because he got caught and now he can't handle it and maybe the skank and her unconditional admiration of him, despite the fact that he would lie and cheat is looking "oh so good" right now. This house is not exactly a fantasyland escape, considering his DD's are not exactly impressed with him and I'm obviously hurting.

Last year, he ended the A from September to mid January and then started it up again. (I never found out about the A until it was over.) So of course I'm thinking that in the New Year, the skank is going to look good again just like she did last year. Maybe I shouldn't have asked about her but I did. He said he wishes he never laid eyes on ow and that she is a horrible reminder of what he has lost. He said being with her again would add to his guilt not detract from it and that it was done a long time ago and will always be done.

So am I seeing a repentant wayward? Or is simply he displaying some world class acting skills to throw me off?