H and and I were meeting for lunch the other day and OW showed up at the same resturant. I got there first and had already ordered and sat down. OW was in line waiting to order, but I didn't know that was her. H comes flying in and lookss like he is going to be sick and says let's just go to the park and eat. H seemed to be on edge the whole time we were having lunch. I thought about during the rest of the day. When I got home I asked him what was wrong. He told me OW was there and he wanted that time to be spent focusing on me.

I must say this was the best possible thing that could have happened for me. I have wondered for so long what she looked like. Now that I know I can't believe "that" was what all the fuss was about. My self image and self esteem was not at its highest after our daughter was born because it was taking me longer than I thought to get back to normal. I feel so silly that I let myself be intimidated by someone that is that unattractive.

I am worried that H is not feeling the same high that I am. We have been doing great with UA time and really talking a lot. I think he is feeling fresh shame and guilt again.

Has anyone else went through anything like this?

My husbands OW was much older than me and very unattractive, but its wasnt about looks...she listened to him. It was a huge blow to my ego and I am still extremely embarassed. (I was a playboy playmate and bikinI model, I still look the same!) Unfortunately my husbands greatest needs are not SF or physical attraction. Such a tough pill to swallow...especially in our small town. I' m sure everyone thinks something is seriously wrong with me if even my man strayed! Honestly, I wish OW in our case was better looking...less embarrasment!

I know the feeling. My FWH's OW was heavy, short, wears lots of makeup and hair products, and smokes......all of which my husband had always said he hated that was why he loved me. I'm just about normal size wise (could lose about 10) dont wear makeup or hairspray and never smoked.

There doesn't seem to be any good reasons why they would be with someone else when they were married to us............I think the ws's are in a weakened state and they seek out the same type of women, they don't have to be better looking or thinner they just have to be available and willing.
Did they leave us for those women? No, because they know we are better .......
My husband didn't chose his OW and she is 10 years younger, long blonde hair and just as good looking as I am.....I am thinner but I was also sick and not looking the greatest, my hair had fallen out, I was thin.......so looks aren't any part of what it really is.......it is just because someone else was there and they let them be there......
They are selfish and entitled and none of it makes any sense........
None of us should feel badly about what someone else chose to do.......
I think our WS's didn't have to be as good with the OW as they did with us, they could be lower class and be careless with their lives, it simply is less work for them, they didn't have to try to be considerate, compassionate or respectful..........It is easy when they have a cheerleader to make them feel they are right and justified........
It is easy to not live morally when you have the same thinking type of person you are spending your time with...........
and we were taking care of their families.............
You should be proud of being better than taking on the role of a skank like she did ........you act with grace and forgiveness that is the real difference between BW/BH's and OW/OM............

Hah!

�There doesn't seem to be any good reasons why they would be with someone else when they were married to us�

Ladies, count your blessings.

My wife�s 10 year OM was a tall, muscular, handsome fighter pilot (scarf streaming out behind him even when standing in a closed room) � smart, witty, lady�s man extraordinaire and according to wife was by far the best lover this side of the Mississippi.

Maybe he was one of your husbands?

I don�t even try any more.

The love of my life is a short, balding redhead. I fantasize about him during the day when we are apart. I can't wait to get home to him. I'd rip his clothes off at the door if our kids weren't there

He's a short fella. He's got red hair (that I've never been attracted to before). He's got fat feet. He makes weird noises in his sleep. I think he's a hottie.

Dang, do I love that man.

Mind your business, NG! You're gonna take a cartload of horse-dung for this!
Be brave, NG! Maybe the comment will be received well.
Dammit, NG! I hate when you get all honorable!

TS, I think this is the second time that I recall you've brought up your past playmate and bikini-model past. I'm not knocking any of that, but let me make the following point:

In college I was the lightweight stroke of my school's successful crew team. We certainly have folks (mostly men) who have fought in combat in their earlier adulthoods. I've never before brought up my past, and those heroes haven't said a word about theirs, because we know to focus on our more recent lives to understand what happened to us, and try to recover from it. My participation in winning a specific rowing championship could NEVER be a realistic cause to expect fidelity from my bride. ("You cheated on me with HIM? But I've got more medals...")

Our histories help create who we are, but they cannot continue to be who we are. It's that "who we are" that is the focus of what we're trying to learn here, and one of the major tenets is that AS is but ONE of the ENs the sourcing of which binds us as couples.
Feel better, NG? Now get the H3LL off this thread and don't come back!

Struggling, that happened to me, too!

H's OW is strikingly homely, older than both of us, wears a lot of make-up (something he said he's never liked), and weighs almost twice as much as me.

He often said that no one ever treated OW as well as he had, and that was why she wouldn't let go. H felt needed by her. No one else would ever want OW, and plently of guys would want me if I was single.

After 3 D-days and finally NC, H and I went to a restaurant where our son was playing the guitar. Many of H's present and former cowokers had come that evening. OW was there. She had driven 40 miles. One of her "Friends" had invited OW, and she sure put on a show.

We were ignoring her, we were affectionate together as we usually are out for a night on the town, and OW went ballistic. OW followed H into the men's room to tell him off for being with me. I went in after her. OW seemed to have been under the impression that H was going to miss her and pine away for her forever after he told her NC. H wouldn't even give OW the satisfaction of turning around or looking at her.

OW was deluded and thought she was very, very important and commanded my H's respect. He'd never said an unkind word to her. OW had met my H's needs of admiration and conversation.

OW came to our table and got in my face and yelled at me. I told her she was gross and had bad breath. OW then told me, in front of everyone, to come out to the parking lot. I told OW to go home and stay there. She left w/o my H speaking to her or even loooking at her.

Like you did, I felt triumphant and victorious. I was struck by her up-close unattractiveness. H was a bit revolted, but said that it was something that needed to happen (an almost bar fight with OW throwing a tantrum, and H giving me all his attention with OW right there watching H in love w/ me) for OW to get it that the A was over.

H always said I was way prettier and smarter than OW, but it just blew me away to see that he'd been so in love with someone so disgusting.

You're a bad boy, NG. But you DO have a good point.

TS, the OW in my sitch was thinner than me (I could have stood to lose about 10 pounds at the time of the A, as well.) I would consider her prettier than me, but not by much. (I'm not a bombshell, but I'm nothing the cat dragged in, either )

Naturally, my ego was terribly beaten and bruised after D-Day. I asked my H if she was prettier than me, and he always answered the same way: "It wasn't about the looks. It was about the hits." She could have looked like Rin Tin Tin and he still would have been attracted to the emotional hits she was giving him by flirting and need-meeting. She was constantly admiring him (gee, guess what one of his most important ENs is ) He hit the slippery slope the second he responded in kind.

I think we get distracted by noting the obvious (physical appearance) and missing the less-obvious needs (admiration, SF, conversation). Comparing looks is easier than sharpening up your conversational skills and making the effort to admire the things about your partner that are cause for admiration.

I think physical appearance is important, but isn't necessarily the Be All, as you have discovered.

You have been given a gift: You now know that, while you are no doubt an attractive woman, your H has other needs that appear to rank higher in importance than physical appearance. Understand what those needs are and perfect the art of meeting them.

I would say the skank is the complete opposite of myself. I have morales, value, and character, something the skank lacks. I even said that to the skank, along with the fact she is a sponge who lives off the scum of society. The skank probably had to look all those words up.

Physically completely different as well, last time I saw the skank I threw up....it is just repulsive.

Thanks for sharing everyone.

While an AS is in H's top 3 EN, admiration is #1. When A started I know I was not meeting this EN. I was engrossed in trying to be the best mother I could to our daughter and was still nursing. That and work pretty much summed up my existence. I know OW was meeting this need. H has also made the comment that she was not as complicated.

I am glad that thanks to MB I know what H's EN are. Now I have to put what I have learned to use and meet them.

I know, I know NG, most people dont even know this about my past and my accomplishments at home, in sports, school, church and LIFE are way more important, but this thread was about how generally folks affair "down" I could make a laundry list of qualities that I have better than the OW, I'm just pointing out the obvious and its sucks and its embarrassing to me. She met needs I never did. It doesnt really matter how "awesome" you are, you have to meet the needs of your spouse.

Struggling, my focus had always been on being a good mom too. Which EN is AS?

NG, I think it's a helpful perspective. We women learn from an early age to place more importance than men do on being pretty/looking attractive. It is really engrained in some of us, and feelings of inadequacy can be particularly acute in this area. (Not that every BS doesn't feel inadequacy)

Why are you hating?

The oar's men carried your butt. Just like being on a NFL team for whole season and rode the bench and go around wearing a championship ring.

Championship by association.

I won the 8th grade spelling bee.

quote=NeverGuessed] Mind your business, NG! You're gonna take a cartload of horse-dung for this!
Be brave, NG! Maybe the comment will be received well.
Dammit, NG! I hate when you get all honorable!

TS, I think this is the second time that I recall you've brought up your past playmate and bikini-model past. I'm not knocking any of that, but let me make the following point:

In college I was the lightweight stroke of my school's successful crew team. We certainly have folks (mostly men) who have fought in combat in their earlier adulthoods. I've never before brought up my past, and those heroes haven't said a word about theirs, because we know to focus on our more recent lives to understand what happened to us, and try to recover from it. My participation in winning a specific rowing championship could NEVER be a realistic cause to expect fidelity from my bride. ("You cheated on me with HIM? But I've got more medals...")

Our histories help create who we are, but they cannot continue to be who we are. It's that "who we are" that is the focus of what we're trying to learn here, and one of the major tenets is that AS is but ONE of the ENs the sourcing of which binds us as couples.
Feel better, NG? Now get the H3LL off this thread and don't come back![/quote]

I think by AS (attractive spouse?)you mean the emotional need Physical Attractiveness? Dr. Harley gets a TON of flak for having this as a top 10 Emotional Need (according to the Online Seminar) "Shouldn't it be what's on the inside that counts?" say the critics. The fact remains that PA is a need many men have in their top 5 (but not my husband!) My husband's #1 need is Admiration, a bit difficult to meet after the affair as I felt thrown under the bus. Working on it! And while I think sporting accomplishments are AMAZING, (well done!!!) they arent an EN, dang!

Kind of a t/j... I don't know why he should get flak for stating what other needs have proven to be. It's not like he made them up, he just listed his research out.

CV

*** Self-Protective T/J ***

Hey TR, your ignorance is showing! Again! (Still?)

The STROKE of a rowing crew is an oarsman, the one who sits directly in front of (and facing) the COXSWAIN (whose "butt" we carried, in your construct), usually the biggest, baddest, strongest, most enduring oar-handler.

And "lightweight" is a term that limits the average weight of the oarsmen in such a boat to 170(?) pounds.

Championship(s) by ACCOMPLISHMENT, dude!

*** End of T/J ***

If I am super honest- the OW look like she could be related to me.

She has the same coloring, the same type of eyes, and the same frame/body type. She is like a younger, less attractive me. I'm pretty cute. **paranoid**

However- she doesn't look as feminine as I do. When we didn't know she was the OW, and my spouse was taking my children to meet her on the downlow- my daughter- without knowing who she was- reported that Daddy's friend was almost pretty, but too much like a man to really be pretty.

Thank you.
Always happy to learn.

And the "stroker" should learn to not go hating.

I see a valid need to feel good about herself. When a H gets into another womans bed most times a W will need to find a way to validate her attractiveness.

That's all I see her statement at.

My XH didn't 'affair down' in the looks department. Of course every affair is by its nature 'affairing down', but XHs OW is 21 years younger than him. And pretty. XH likes pretty and young.

I've always been secure in my physical looks. Except with how my XH viewed me...as I got into my 30s I began to see the shift in how he viewed me. It annoyed me more than hurt me. I felt like saying, 'look around, most 35 year olds look WORSE than me!' I realized then and even more now that it was not in my control...it was a fatal character flaw of his that he cared to the EXTREME about youth and attractiveness.

He is obsessed with his own looks too...I think it all stems from him feeling 'less than' his entire life and getting the pretty girl(first me then OW) to make him feel better.

My dh is gorgeous. And he adores me. With make up, without make up, in jeans or dressed up. When we are deep in conversaton about some important subject he will get teary eyed and say how did he get so lucky to get me.

I did learn a lesson from my failed marriage. I underestimated the importance of admiration. I offer it often and freely to my dh. I did not do that with my first husband, and by the time I understood he needed that there was so much resentment toward him for the many painful events through out our long marriage that I felt like I would choke if I tried to compliment him on anything.

I had always thought the OW was a bit mannish, too! I just couldn't believe it, after D-day that THAT was the person my H was in love with. :horrific gasp:

I, too, thought accomplishments, achievements, and success were attractive and desirable qualities in a mate. I suppose they don't meet any emotional needs though, or make a person more enjoyable to spend time with.

OW always had time for my H, always listened to him, appreciated him, asked for his advice. She was less intelligent than H, and he was flattered by that.

The main similarity she had to me was her life situation at the time he met her - hardworking single mother, recently separated from an abusive husband. (I had been there at age 21, though. OW was 46 at the time, and she's not changing or digging herself out; she'll still be like that 10 years from now)

Smiling Woman, Since so many men have admiration as top 5, or #1!, any tips on how best to meet that need. (Most bang for your words!) Thanks.

IAin'tReady-

Our situation is similar- except the OW was much younger than us ( 13 years younger). She was a dumsel in distress. Less intelligent than my husband, and needed guidance and caretaking in a way I have never. He was a knight in shining armor to her. And he ate up the praise she poured on him for it.

I have always been a highly competent person- and can manage my life easily. She was a hot mess. He spent a lot of time rescuing her. She spent a lot of time praising him.

But I will disagree with you. I think being a whole and complete person is a person you want to spend your life with- and that is far more enjoyable than praise from a smaller person. Saving a person from themselves every day for the rest of their lives is a big job, and a tiring one.

I'd much rather be with someone who can save themselves.

It's funny, isn't it. They always seem to be so... lame in comparison.

My WW's OP was an unattractive, balding 26 year old army wannabe. Couldn't get into the real army, so he worked as a coffee-getter in the front office on base. Owned fatigues, helmet and everything, but couldn't actually get in. No real passion in life, no drive, and couldn't talk about anything intelligently. Had never left his home town. His pride and joy was his stereo system... and an american flag toilet seat. No joke.

My wife is a cultured, intelligent, well travelled person. We've lived in 3 countries, we speak 4 languages each, love art, architecture, and music. We've lived our life following our passion. In comparison, this guy was a lump. Not worth 2% of my wife, or me for that matter.

Not to mention the moral differences between him and I . I consider that whole comparison a part of the insanity of the fog. We have to remember, as BSs, that the fog actually divides your WS against him/herself. It makes the WS actively destroy her life and the people who love her, all the while thinking it's OK. The most outrageous rationalizations are required to make this possible. And if the fog can convince your WS that destroying her life is a good thing, it's cake to convince her that Joe Schmuck is a knight in shining armor.

I think the beginning point is that there has to be something admirable in one's spouse. I think my dh is awesome and so I make sure I tell him that often. It took some practice...I am not that comfortable handing out praise....I think it....I just don't want to sound cheesy or fakey...but apparently I don't because my dh loves it.

I compliment him on his looks often. I admire him across the room and he likes that. But I also make sure I compliment him on how he handles the boys or any specific situation. For instance recently a friend of his called my dh asking for him (dh) to speak to her 20ish year old son who was about to get himself into some moral trouble. Dh called him up and took him to dinner and had a frank talk with how easily it could all go very bad. I told dh I was VERY proud of him having the character to put himself out there that way and counsel that young man.

But you know, I am still a newly wed...married just over a year...and we are very much in love....so it has been easy to implement MB principles which tie so nicely in with Christian principles--which we also practice. When things have gone bad though...and years of neglect have turned things ugly...it is HARD to turn around those feelings and have a loving marriage again. When I was divorcing XH he turned my stomach. And the thought of having to say something complimentary about him/to just made me ill.

I told dh I was VERY proud of him having the character to put himself out there that way and counsel that young man.
VERY cool, SW!

SW you are right, there does have to be something admirable in ones own spouse. My husband has many great qualities. I thought I did compliment alot before, but it wasn't what he wanted to be praised for. H takes a lot of pride in working hard and being a good provider. He would always put in any amount of time it took to get the job done. I would often critize the long hours he put in at his job. I wanted him to be home with me and the kids. He would say "there are a lot of men out there that don't work at all." I think we are both on the same page where this subject is concerned now.

That is ironic because the ONE thing I admired about my XH was his work ethic. He worked hard and made a good living. So I would praise him for that. Then he would accuse me of viewing him as my 'meal ticket'.

My H would never accuse me of using him as a meal ticket. We both have put a little to much time into our careers over the years, but his was more of a constant. I do and always have appreciated how driven he is. After the birth of our duaghter I was really looking for us to both slow down a bit. I think the added responsibility drove him even deeper into his work. He has now cut back on his hours and it is great. We are cooking together, going to the gym and planning for the future.

After the birth of our daughter...I think the added responsibility drove him even deeper into his work.

OUCH! That sounds distressingly familiar. Good for the two of you that you're now jointly managing that pressure better. If you ever see him drifting the wrong way again, print out part of my story and give it to him.

Most of the posts in this thread are about the OW being unattractive, etc. But, in my situation, the OW is quite attractive with the knock-out body, esp. a few years ago when DH met her. She is less so now (saw her on Facebook). She looks beat in some of her pics, which I am secretly grateful for!

Luckily I am in the best shape I have ever been in, and my H tells me almost daily how hot and sexy I am. I am still a little jealous of her, though, I just can't help it! Anyone else in this situation, and how do you deal with it?

My husband's OW has long blonde hair is good looking and does have a better body, curvy........and oh yeah she is 10 years younger........
It is hard for me to deal with this when I let it, I am ill as well, so I am thin and I have lost my hair and have to wear wigs, which are great and make me look so much better, I am very small chested but I have a runner type body so look great in my clothes a size 2-4, the OW is probably a 10-12.
I'm in the same place as you when I allow myself to compare it makes me feel inedequate but the trick is not allowing yourself, if the OW were so great why are they still with us..........My hair never came back and I think my husband doesnt' even notice anymore........he loves to rub my head......so looks mean nothing it was just because the OW was available and she had no morals that she was in his life at all.......
Don't let yourself go there, be proud of yourself, you are in great shape and sexy so I have heard(your husband)
You know what she is probably so jealous of you and probably feels that there is something wrong with her since he didn't end up with her..........
I am sure my husband's OW does, it must be a shock when they realize they aren't the choice......I love it.........keep your focus on that thought

lol and jt it's not about rack size or hair length.

Just eat healthy, exercise to be toned and fit. Your beauty will radiate from the inside out. Many a woman has had work done and to me it is never money well spent. Nor does it improve one's health.

AND.....

Nothing beats a great smile.

I do agree with you. Being a competent person with many good qualities, assets, and accomplishments IS very important and IS desirable in a mate and life partner.

A lower quality person is just enticing for someone to spend time sneaking around with, but doesn't much compare to a great spouse. Once they come out of the fog, they can see that clearly.

"A dumsel in distress" - I just now caught that!

I admire the way my H chops wood. I admire the shape of his face in profile. I admire that he can always think of something new to surprise me and make me feel special, even after 23 years together.
I admire that he can get breakfast and lunch ready and the kids dressed, packed, and at school on time, all in 30 minutes flat. I admire the way he can fix just about anything he sets his heart and mind to.
I admire my H's looks - a lot.

AS is a big EN for me (obviously). Admiration is one of his top EN's.

Honey is that you??

Sorry, my wife has always said this to me, and I never figured out why. I consider myself "normal" or average in every way, yet she persists in sitting and staring at me when I work outside! LOL.

I think what you wrote is awesome and healthy and well... Just good.

CV

I have noticed lately that one great way to meet the Admiration need is by doing so indirectly. My H seems to really like it when I comment to him about things, but I've seen his eyes light up when he overhears me saying something good about him to someone else. Whether I'm on the phone with someone or heck, even talking to the dogs or kids, if I say something positive about H and he hears, he seems to perk up a bit.

The other day I was talking to our German Shepherds and telling them they were almost as handsome as their daddy and Mr. Sunny was sitting nearby. I saw him smiling!

And for the record - yes, watching our men do physical work is usually a pleasant experience, CV! It doesn't have to be about looks...I don't know... it's something about the competency of it all, at least for me! I used to love going to watch when H was on his work softball team!

Yes, there is something about men chopping wood...... I always thought that was sexy. I used to love that too.

I have found that one compliment breeds another. It is just getting the first few started. I noticed that the more I compliment H the more he compliments me.

There is something very attractive about men doing physical labor.

LOL.
There is something primal about this I think. The smell of woodsmoke in his hair, the sawdust on his clothes, watching him chop wood for a fire to keep us warm together makes me feel very safe and cared for.

H would say he is a fairly ordinary-looking man, but I don't see him that way at all.