This is not Plan A... you need to learn how to deflect her fog. WW is feeling excluded from the family, hence her putting a dig in about taking OM to visit your sister. Use this to your advantage. Next time or in a similar opportunity, invite her to go with you and your DD. She might say no, she might not. If she says no, say "ok, sorry you can't make it, it will be a great day". Let her know you and DD will have a good day without her, but she is WELCOME to participate. Not with OM though!

DD should not be a messenger between the two of you. And in your WW's foggy world, you were being mean as you didn't wish to speak with her. This is lovebusting SW. Every time you lovebust you reinforce with WW her foggy justifications for the A. I know Plan A is HARD, your taker is SCREAMING. But you need to fine tune this to be a better person yourself. You can do it. And when that taker screams, vent here.

Exactly, no hanging up on her. I'm guilty of this in Plan A, hung up on WH on DDay, so I do understand the feelings that are driving you. But right now you need to be the one who is in control, the James Bond of WW's world, the master Plan A'er.. .

I wouldn't avoid doing things with her brothers though. I think it is more her feelings of exclusion from the family because of her A that is the problem here. Not that she will see it. Can you invite her to these outings?

What about physical affection SW? Hugs, hand on shoulder, etc?

Brilliant! She may not have shown much emotion at the time, but you don't know what is going on under the surface, then or at a later date.

Like I said, you know your WW, we don't. Is this over the top for you? Or something that was normal. I think it is good to compliment her, but don't overdo it or it might come across as insincere. Your the best judge of that. I find it promising that she replied to your text... she could have ignored it. I'm inclined to think you are meeting an EN here... those with more experience might chime in if I'm wrong.

Will OM be getting her something? You can bet he will! Definately acknowledge Valentine's Day. But remember that POSOM will likely be getting her something, so you want to get her something that shows how well you know her, what she likes, the history you have, pointing out how you are so much better suited for her. I don't think you should go extravagant... simple but sincere. Any ideas?

Why would she move on? She has the best of both worlds.

Caracal - thank you so much for your replies. It's information like this that I need to help me make informed decisions.

DD was upset that she was the go between on that incident.

I guess I incorrectly assumed that since WW moved out, that I needed to be in Plan B since we were no longer under the same roof; I did not see how Plan A could work. I thank both Melody and yourself for pointing out that I should be in Plan A. This helps IMMENSELY!

OTH - I too always thought she was still getting the best of both worlds, but it wasn't like she still lived at home. I assumed that OM was now satisfying all her ENs, and I was just someone maintaining a household for our kids.

I must admit that I've convinced myself that SHE (not me) feels OM is the love of her life, I need to keep telling myself this is just fog babble. I assume she's still just fogging me? I've actually allowed myself to believe that maybe she isn't fogging me? I need to remember that this has also put me into a fog.

Is there any other information that I need to provide everyone (based on everyone's experience here), that would allow more ideas to be generated? Things I'm doing right, doing wrong?

The information I've gathered so far from all of you is priceless. Thank you!

SW,

From the age of the OM I would guess that his kids are both old enough to have facebook pages and old enough to be exposed to. Also think workplace exposure.

God Bless
Gamma

Gamma - From what I understand, OM has a 12 year old (not sure if S or D) and a 20 year old son. They both live at home with him, don't know if the 12 year old switches between parents. Also, from what I've heard of the 20 year old's character, he wouldn't care less what his dad is doing. The 20 year old has a FB page, I don't believe the 12 year does.

I may be able to get access to OM's FB page through another mutual friend. About a week or so back, my WW defriended me on FB. I asked her why and she said she was cleaning up and removed me. But she said that there's no reason we couldn't be friends on FB and that she was sorry for doing that. But yet she didn't send me a FB friend request yet, and I so far have refused to stoop to the level of asking to be her friend. Should I ask her?

OM also is a co-owner of a business along with his brother. It's a very, very small business. I believe the OM's brother's wife is the office manager. According to postings I've seen on FB, these three all hang out with my wife at bars, etc. So workplace exposure wouldn't gain me any advantage that I can see.

The OM is 46. From the story I have heard, his W cheated on him. So I assume that was the cause of their divorce. My friends and family all agree that there is more to the OM's story than that. If he couldn't keep his marriage together because of his wife's A, then he would be devastated, and the last person you would seek out after the D is another man's wife.

Unless, like Melody stated, he's a weasel. Which he'd have to be to stoop to that level.

You don't do anything to avoid her discomfort over her affair. It is not up to you to protect her from hard feelings about her brothers. That is just a consequence of her affair. Do your best to make her very uncomfortable about the affair. And don't hang up on her!

And one of the reasons I want you to redecorate is because women are very territorial. I predict this will incite those feelings but she won't be able to object because she has LEFT.

I'm going to just post some miscellaneous questions and observations about my situation. Maybe some of this will give you some better insight into my WW's mind.

1. Should I go over to her apartment? Since the time she moved out, I have not been to her apartment. She hasn�t specifically asked me over, but there have been a couple occasions when she asked if I could drop off DD or pick her up (all for WW�s convenience). I�ve declined each time because I do not care to go over there and �validate� what she�s doing. Each of those situations, she easily could have done the DD pick up or drop off. I get the feeling that WW wanted me to come over and see her place. I sensed some disappointment in her voice when I declined.

She did make a comment several weeks before moving out that �once I get my own place, I�ll have you over for some wine and play Yahtzee� (we did that outside on our deck all summer). I took that as her justifying in her mind that what she was doing is just fine and everyone will just accept it and be happy for her.

Our son refuses to go over to her place. I know this bothers her immensely. DD doesn�t even go over there as much as WW would like.

2. It bothers WW that our kids do not visit her apartment (DS refuses to go over there, and DD sleeps over one night a week max), that they do not respond back in a timely fashion to her texts (sometimes they don�t respond at all), I feel like they don�t have as much respect for her anymore, rightfully so.

As an interesting note, a week ago this past Sunday, WW stopped by the house unannounced. Knocked, walked in and sat down on the couch. Chatted with DD about what they were going to do the next day (both she and the kids had off the next day). Then DD got a call from her best friend and went in her bedroom, shut the door and talked. I made some idle conversation with WW. Then WW called back to DS�s bedroom for him to come out and visit. He came out chatted for about a minute, and went back into bedroom.

I then got up and asked WW if she was warm enough, I�d turn up the heat. She said �never mind, I�m leaving, the kids are ignoring me�. I asked why she came over and she said �to visit with the kids�. I asked her to stick around and visit and she said in sad voice, �I�ll be fine� and walked out the door. Now bare in mind, she had all the next day to visit with the kids. Plus, the weather was lousy (she even admitted it was bad driving over), so why make a special trip to see the kids, when she was going to see them the next day?

On DD�s birthday this past week, after she finished opening her presents, she gave me a hug. My WW said �hey, there�s two people on this couch that didn�t get a hug (her and MIL)�. DD said she gave her a hug earlier, to which WW said �no you didn�t�. Then DD wanted to give her a hug and WW said �no, I don�t want one now�. DD walked off and sat down by her presents, basically not letting it affect her. I looked over at WW and I could see the pain in her eyes. I felt sad, but what could I do? Then WW looked at me and the look in her eyes was hard to decipher. Kind of a mad at me, look how I get treated by the kids look.

3. Should I text WW now and then with things that are going on at home, or just to say "Hi! Hope your day is going well". I don't want to appear needy at all. I want to appear in control.

Need to read up on Plan A today.

stillwaiting, focus mostly on meeting her need for CONVERSATION. That is how you will reel her in. She won't allow you meet her need for affection because she is so detached from you, but conversation is a nice, safe way to meet her needs. And once you are meeting the need, the others are soon to follow.

Look for every opportunity to talk to her without being annoying and make sure your conversations are PLEASANT, PLEASANT, PLEASANT.

No, don't go to an affair lair.


Perfect. You have good kids! I wouldn't want to visit that filthy adultery hole either. Decent people don't visit affair lairs.


So sorry there are consequences for adultery!


Sounds good! Just don't be annoying. Focus on looking good and being as attractive as possible.

"I'm so sorry, but your affair has had a devastating effect on the kids. I hope you can repair your relationship some day." <-----offer her sympathy but don't protect her from the consequences.

I'm still having a bit of a problem understanding how I should implement Plan A while separated, and with her 'just move on' attitude. At least that's the attitude she gives me. Whether she actually feels this way, or it's just fog babble to keep her cake eating going, I do not know.

From Dr. Harley's Plan A/Plan B article:
Remember, plan A is negotiating (without anger, disrespect or demands) to eliminate the annoying behavior or improve the meeting of emotional needs. A blanket agreement between spouses to follow the Policy of Joint Agreement goes a long way toward eliminating these thoughtless acts, and can also help couples learn to meet each other's needs with enthusiasm. But without that policy, couples often find that they cannot get anywhere with each other through negotiation, and sometimes separation can eventually lead to mutual recognition that they need the Policy of Joint Agreement to help them resolve conflicts.

My concern is, any official negotiation with her regarding policies or other steps towards getting back together discussions, will just fall on deaf ears and she'll throw back the "you just don't get it" comments.

All I can think is just to just follow Plan A methods, without any 'official' discussion or negotiations with her. So follow Melody's suggestion to meet her needs for conversation in hopes of gradually meeting other ENs to reel her in. Then more official Plan A steps can be more effectively approached. Am I correct in this?

I have two ideas off the top of my head:
1. My WW has saved all (or at least most) of the roses I have ever bought her. They're in bowls in the curio cabinet. Perhaps I can take some of these dried roses and design some type of Valetines Day card? Or use them to design something that would hold additional fresh roses or another small gift. I'm sure DD would love to help.

I did give WW a dozen roses back on our 22nd anniversary this past October, whith a little funny remark on the card. She loved the flowers and card, called and thanked me. But she didn't want to go out to dinner. This was about 2.5 months post D-Day.

2. Have some cupcakes made up that contain a letter on top of each. These cupcakes together would spell out a message. A place in town makes gourmet cupcakes. I had thought about doing this at some point if we ever reached a point closer to reconciliation.

I thought of something like "I <heart> U <her name in cupcakes>" then "<heart> <my name in cupcakes>". But I don't know if I should be saying I love you at this point? I want to and I know she knows I feel that way towards her. But will it be too much and distance her further?

All you can do right now is meet her needs where there is an opportunity and focus on attracting her back.

I wouldn't go overboard with this. SEnd her something nice for Valentines Day that will hopefully outshine the OM. Hopefully, she will use it as a baseball bat when he doesn't send a nice enough gift.

Work on conversation. I think that is the way to attract her back. And be sure and look your best when she comes over. How is your appearance?

I try and look my best. I've never been a sloppy dresser, but then again I don't deck out in nice clothes around the house. I try and wear sweaters or button shirts when I know she's coming over, as opposed to say a sweatshirt. I keep my hair cut nice, and will most always be clean shaven over the week, but will sometimes skip shaving over the weekend. However, WW always said she liked it when I wore a mustache/goatee, so for probably the past 7+ years, I always had that. But since she's moved out, I shaved that off to give me more of a changed look, back like I was years ago when we first met and were married. She did question me at one point that I had shaved it off.

I do like dressing very nice, but usually just to go out on the town.

Always keep clean, have always showered everyday. Wear cologne almost everyday (DD likes the stuff I wear - I like the new stuff, no old school cologne). I almost always try and smile and appear upbeat when she's over. She's always been a bubbly person, but there are times when she's over that I can tell she's preoccupied and not as cheery as she usually is. I will try to never appear negative.

Appearing negative brings up something I want to point out. WW says that I was a negative person. I've never been a negative person and one thing I point out is would she have dated me years ago, let alone married me if I was a negative person? Plus, I have asked family and friends and they say I'm the last person they know that is negative.

However, I can understand now how WW may have thought I was negative over the past year or so, but she never bothered to ask why I appeared that way. Upon reflection, I was not negative, rather I was depressed, bummed out, frustrated, and pretty much given up on our management of money. This made me appear negative I believe.

We had a difficult time managing our money. Therefore, there was never much money to do major home projects, trips, recreational vehicles, you know big ticket items that require planning together to achieve (unless one wants additional debt). So as I became more frustrated that we couldn't work together on this, I became more bummed out. And her not working together to help achieve goals, (appearing to just rely on me to provide her happiness?) only worsened the problem.

Then it became a blame game. She would say "You never do this or that", "You're just like my father, he never took us anywhere or did anything for my mom, and she was miserable". So I would get even more bummed with the fact that I couldn't do major things for my family, yet if we had the extra money, I would have done everything in a heartbeat.

I'm not a lazy person by any means and like getting projects done, taking trips, love anything big city (ethnic foods, entertainment, etc.), but if you don't have the money, what can you do? And to add to the frustration was the fact that we made plenty of money, it just wasn't managed well!

Wow, that turned into a vent!

Ok, I re-read my posting and I need to point out something. I'm NOT trying to blame my WW exclusively for problems we had in our M. The problems in the M were 50/50 and I firmly believe that if we had a higher quality of communication, we may not be where we are today. Money, communication, and being comfortable were our major problems.

So please don't think I'm bashing my WW. Even though I may hate the fact that what she's doing is severely impacting, even devastating our family, I cannot bring myself to hate my WW. Is that messed up or what?

To this day I would still take a bullet for her. Not just for the kid's sake, but because I love her that much! And I'm not saying that because of the emotional state I'm in.

I realize now the day I will no longer give my life for her, is the day I've fallen out of love with her. So far that hasn't happened.

I guarantee the OM wouldn't take a bullet for her!!!

We understand completely. My WW moved into her 1BR apt on Nov as well. I'm in the same boat as you. I'm pretty sure the A is over, but she is being stubborn at this point. Have you read this? Never Trust the word of a wayward


It should help you.

GJM - unable to follow that link, it appears dead. Is this listed under notable threads, or is there another way to get to it?

At one point earlier this month, my BILs and I were questioning whether my WW was having relationship problems with the OM. She was really quick to get agitated and would swear alot at me during texting for just normal topics - nothing I did to provoke it.

She seemed to be spending more time with her mother on the weekends. Especially two Sundays ago during the NFL playoffs. My WW blew me and the family off for every game day this past season to go watch the game with 'friends'. Then on the most important game day of the season, she texts our DS and asks "would you like to come over to my place and watch the game with me and grandma?" He of course declined, and I have fairly good proof that she indeed was with her mom that day. Unless her mom & OM were with her watching the game, but then why invite DS over? So the question was why wasn't she with OM watching the game at a bar where all the parties were?

I didn't look at the latest cell phone bill, but my father had looked at it (he's under our plan) and he said there was still texting and phone activity between her and the OM since at least 1/20/12. Alot of the phone calls were just one minute, so there was no pickup of the phone on his end for those calls. But that alone is no indication of the 'health' of their relationship.

GJM - Is the link you provided the one posted by indiegirl? If so, I already had it bookmarked and will read it again.

Thanks!