Agree with markos! Or get a sitter so that you can at least go with him...

Agree with both of you.
And we had POJA'd this trip. With various kid's activities this weekend we didn't feel they should miss and my business, this was not a good weekend for either myself to leave and/or kids.

That's exactly what I was NOT talking about. I'm talking about rare and infrequent travel. I thought I made that very clear, but apparently I did not.


My point was:

A job that involves regular travel is a disaster for marriage.

A job that involves rare travel -- many white-collar jobs fall into this category -- can be managed with careful attention to extraordinary precautions and accountability.

EDIT: And yes, if the spouse can go with it's perfectly fine. My wife has never shown any interest in going to Austin, Texas with me on my once-per-year pilgrimage. Mainly has to do with making arrangements for the kids at this point, but I suspect as the kids get older she will show more interest in coming with me.

workit, it is possible for both spouses to be in enthusiastic agreement about something that is still a bad idea for the marriage. For example, both spouses could be enthusiastic about not being honest with each other, or not spending enough time with each other, etc. Or even both be enthusiastic about having an open marriage, or about one spouse being unfaithful.

So just because both of you have enthusiastically agreed to something does not mean it is going to work for recovering a marriage after infidelity.

I have heard Dr. Harley say that he and Joyce spent a few nights apart earlier in their marriage, but then decided that was a bad idea. I have never heard him say that a marriage could manage rare and infrequent travel in the way that Doormat_No_More is describing, although DoNoMo is an avid Dr. Harley listener and is likely to have heard some thing I have not.

In your case I think the point is moot since you are recovering from a recent affair. There should be no nights apart now under any circumstances!

Just because recovery from alcoholism takes priority over recovery from the affair, that does not mean that rules for recovering the marriage should be ignored. The two programs of recovery have to support one another.

I wasn't referring to frequent travel. I would consider a job that requires overnight travel even, say, two times a year a traveling job...and Dr Harley basically addresses ANY overnights apart in the traveling job link I provided, not "frequent" travel.

But I don't think you answered my other question, DNM, have you seen or heard Dr Harley say what you posted, that overnights apart is OK with "careful planning", FaceTime, etc?

Well this is interesting, I actually posted assuming you guys would bludgeon ME for my LB and DJ, and was ready & willing to take the heat. And by the way, I took the advice given by Markos. That suggestion was extremely helpful to me.

But instead I get discussion on the once a year (IF) trip, that I have explained that we both realized was not optimum, and took EP's to make me feel secure in that aspect.

And, correct me if I'm wrong, but Dr. Harley says "to AVOID any nights apart", if we want to break down his verbiage.

And yes Markos, I definitely see your point on POJA, however we are currently not doing any of those things you mentioned.

Our most pressing problems right now in recovery regard MY attitudes.

Don't get me wrong, I have no problem whatsover, pointing out my H's weaknesses, am striving thru a good Al-Anon program and the help here and a great MC & IC (both of which embrace the Harley principles) to stop this behavior.

Had a meeting and took a break before I posted this.

And to SusieQ, that is a stretch to call traveling 2 times a year, a "traveling" job.

When my STBX and I coached with Steve Harley, the very first step he takes, after confirming of course that the A is over, is he works closely with the WS to develop detailed Extraordinary Precautions. He emphatically stated to me that his experience in helping so many couples in recovery is to look closely at what precautions are being taken and that without proper precautions in place the BS's injury will not heal and the BS will have a hard time meeting ENs and avoiding lovebusters. He coached my sister and her FWH and the process was the same with them as well.

That is why I asked you what EPs your H has implemented. Spending ANY overnights apart is a red flag that perhaps EPs are not being taken seriously enough, and that that WOULD affect how you are feeling in recovery. Not to mention the disconnect that spending time apart creates.

If you are comfortable with the EPs being taken, workit, I am not going to argue with you! But I hope this helps you understand WHY posters would hone in on the EPs.

What anybody considers a traveling job is beside the point. Dr Harley addresses overnights apart in general in the traveling job link that was provided.

And it should be noted that he isn't even referring to a couple in recovery in those quotes and radio clips.

[and that that WOULD affect how you are feeling in recovery. Not to mention the disconnect that spending time apart creates.

If you are comfortable with the EPs being taken, workit, I am not going to argue with you! But I hope this helps you understand WHY posters would hone in on the EPs. [/quote]

Now, this makes sense to me Susie, thank u.
Although I did feel good about the EP's we had in place, maybe it's more the disconnect, especially during this time concerning my mom's passing, that caused the triggers etc.

Again , thank u, point well taken & truly received

Better to write in with the question about how Dr. Harley would recommend dealing with infrequent travel in a job than ask me to quote him at this point. Not interested in hunting down the radio shows regarding his current recommendations managing mandatory overnights apart.

Dr. Harley's gone into it many times in -- among other things -- the context of how one handles military marriages. You do the best you can, aiming to get out of the job that requires travel.

One trouble on the board is we tend to think about things in black-and-white based upon Dr. Harley's published writings & quotes from the radio show. We're quite legalistic about these things, and to a certain extent we're right.

But when facing an issue with nuance -- like how many overnights a year is too much -- those of us in the forum often fall over providing conflicting advice. I have a fantastic job that allows me to work from home most of the time and dramatically exceed our 15 hours per week UA time most weeks due to the lack of commute time and ability to quickly have time together on weekdays (more conversation, more SF, more affection, more recreation, etc.).

Now weigh that benefit 50+ weeks against 1-2 weeks away (on average) per year in which we take our extraordinary precautions very seriously and "live like a monk" when away from one another. Would it be better if I worked a 9-5 job with 2 hours of commute time and barely scraped by on 15 hours of UA time and no other business travel? Or is it better to have abundant UA time with rare trips?

All that said, if I were the one that strayed, and if my straying had involved affair activities under the pretense of business trips, I'd be singing an entirely different tune here. "Eliminate the conditions that made the affair possible" is the rule; in the case of my wife and I, business travel has always been carefully managed to A) keep it minimal, and B) if required, follow strict rules to make sure we feel closer together at the end of the week apart than we did when I left.

So my advice in a nutshell:
* If the affair was conducted under the pretense of business trips, then it's 100% certain that overnight business trips should never occur without both spouses present.
* If overnight business trips were not a factor in the previous affair, there may be some slight wiggle room along the narrow path, with "avoid overnights apart" as your guiding rule. If they cannot be avoided, they time apart can be managed and minimized.

I wasn't asking you to quote him, DNM. Was just asking if you had heard or read him state if overnights apart could be managed with tools like FaceTime, etc. Because I have heard him say the way to manage infrequent overnights apart would be for the other spouse to join the traveling spouse. Military marriages just seems like a very different issue to me??



But this is a BS who is not even one year into recovery, DNM. Extraordinary Precautions and UA time are so very important. I don't think this is a nuance that we are just taking too seriously in the context of this thread. I understand travel works for you in your M and R, but truly, your advice confused me and I think it could definitely be misleading to someone like the OP.