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Originally Posted by optimism
Sbt. I'm trying to understand your situation. Granted I haven't gone through your old thread. I'm sure there is a lot to it.

Meanwhile. I hope you get the custody thing decided and in place ahead of an actual divorce. Once that is in place, maybe you could go into Plan B for your own protection. Not having a sense of what is "normal" is, I believe, unhealthy. It sounds like you're losing perspective of your own ideals.

I can relate. Once the ww moved out I began a personal journey back to who I feel I really am. The madness of lack of boundaries and gray-area living got in my rear-view mirror. Then I found myself centering and becoming more of the parent and person I wanted to be.

As long as something is in place in writing, to show the courts you're not separating in order to be a bad parent, Plan B would be less scary. Perhaps you could finally convince her to move out if she knew it wouldn't be used against her.

opt

We won't get custody figured out before divorce. Thats why I have been unable to plan b. if I ever do get to plan b it will be only after D is final. She refuses to accept anything less than full custody. I have tried to propose different splits and I only get "how dare you try to rip the kids away from their mother. They need me.". So, I won't leave for obvious reasons (especially if you read the end of my SAA thread) and she won't leave unless she can take the kids with her.

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We won't get custody figured out before divorce. Thats why I have been unable to plan b. if I ever do get to plan b it will be only after D is final. She refuses to accept anything less than full custody. I have tried to propose different splits and I only get "how dare you try to rip the kids away from their mother. They need me.". So, I won't leave for obvious reasons (especially if you read the end of my SAA thread) and she won't leave unless she can take the kids with her.

As Scotland would say: Waywards Suck Azz.

I'm sorry you're going through this.

opt

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Stb,

I'm sure it has all been said and the fact that your still in the house tells me it is so.....
DO NOT LEAVE THE HOUSE
DO NOT LEAVE YOUR KIDS
YOU MUST DO WHAT IT TAKES OT FIGHT FOR THEM!!!!

I would be keeping a detailed journal, and would use a DVR to record your interactions with the WW. Her next move could be to claim abuse and slap a restraining order on you.

The obvious response to her saying "how dare you try to rip the kids away from their mother" is

HOW DARE YOU TRY TO RIP THE CHILDREN FROM THEIR FAITHFUL FATHER !!!!!!!

I hope you have the meanest lawyer in town.... if not go find Him /her !!!!

You are in the fight of your life, and you can't show up for a gun fight with a knife !!!!!!! Go get the biggest gun you can find.

Last edited by stillcommitted; 02/05/12 09:10 AM.

Me BS 54
XWW 51 Divorce final 1/9/12
DS26 DS24 Twin DD's22 Married 29years
D-dates No1 01/2007, No2 08/2008(ongoing)
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Yes.

Im not leaving the house
Im not leaving the kids

I have used a DVR. She has already accused me of verbal and emotional abuse and intimidation. She found it and took it once. Gave it to her atty. now is attempting to use the fact that I recorded everything against me also. The interactions with her arre fine. But because I forgot to turn it off at times it also includes my conversations with counselor, friends, and atty. She has refused to return it.

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Wouldn't worry to much about it. GET another DVR and continue to record........ but don't let her find it this time.

I would tread every conversation that you have with her as if it is being recorded, she could bate you and get a response that could hurt you so be on your best behavior

You are at war !!!!! Never forget that !!!!! BE SMART !!!!!


Me BS 54
XWW 51 Divorce final 1/9/12
DS26 DS24 Twin DD's22 Married 29years
D-dates No1 01/2007, No2 08/2008(ongoing)
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My atty is good but Im sure is very aggressive.

I've asked her why it seems to be ok to take the kids from their father. Her response so far has been that i "can still have complete access to them".

Btw, I have asked for 50/50

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Originally Posted by Sbt
My atty is good but Im sure is very aggressive.

I've asked her why it seems to be ok to take the kids from their father. Her response so far has been that i "can still have complete access to them".

Btw, I have asked for 50/50
Sbt, I think a lot of stbx's, especially waywards, want the full custody because it relates to CS payments. They promise full access because, as long as it's in writing and you're making the full payment, then they can "dump" the kids on you all the time, and still get your money. It burns me up just to say it. This approach is so devious and harmful; it makes a mockery of the court system and I wish there was a way to prosecute mothers who pull these kinds of dishonest, selfish, ugly tactics.

I don't know what state you're in but typically the courts favor a 50/50 kind of thing. There are also some people who try to get 51/49 so that they have the final say -- seems like that might be better for you as I question the ww's true intent or where her real interests lie - with the kids or with herSELF.

I wonder if HTLD (a frequent poster around here) has ever posted to you. He is very good with this kind of thing. You might look for him (Helpthelostdads) if he's not already familiar with your situation.

My attorney was aggressive, but not in my interest, in my KIDS. I was second on the list. I wish you could get her.
_______________________
So, her fantasy divorce picture in her head is alive and well. It's all going to be so nice for everyone...especially her. good grief.
faint

opt

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Yes, her fantasy D is still in tact. I've tried to chip away at it but I don't think there has been any real progress.

In addition to all we have already discussed I am almost 100% certain my wife has BPD. I can't diagnose her but I can say that I have seen all of the symptoms in the linked articles and the one on relationships I could have written myself.

http://bpdfamily.com/bpdresources/nk_a102.htm

http://bpdfamily.com/bpdresources/nk_a101.htm

http://bpdfamily.com/bpdresources/nk_a108.htm

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Originally Posted by Sbt
Yes, her fantasy D is still in tact. I've tried to chip away at it but I don't think there has been any real progress.

In addition to all we have already discussed I am almost 100% certain my wife has BPD. I can't diagnose her but I can say that I have seen all of the symptoms in the linked articles and the one on relationships I could have written myself.

http://bpdfamily.com/bpdresources/nk_a102.htm

http://bpdfamily.com/bpdresources/nk_a101.htm

http://bpdfamily.com/bpdresources/nk_a108.htm

My WH has been dx with BPD and that is a very good website for you if you want support.

The problem with BPD it has to be dx by a psychiatrist and then to be treated successfully the pwBPD needs to seek and stay in therapy to get better.

If you and your WW decide the stay together you might want to see a doctor to see if she does have BPD.

Make sure the doctor knows how to treat BPD because it will do no good if they don't.

BPD is a very stressful mental illness and can take a toll on the pwBPD's family and loved ones.

Good luck to you.

Last edited by BrainHurts; 02/06/12 01:26 PM.

FWW/BW (me)
WH
2nd M for both
Blended Family with 7 kids between us
Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.



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I haven't been able to find a way to bring this up without triggering her anger and retaliation - especially in the context of the D. I have found some materials for trading BPD that she had gotten from her therapist but she is very guarded about what she is being treated for.

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Originally Posted by Sbt
I haven't been able to find a way to bring this up without triggering her anger and retaliation - especially in the context of the D. I have found some materials for trading BPD that she had gotten from her therapist but she is very guarded about what she is being treated for.

So she doesn't want you to know what she is in therapy for?

Have you read the tools on that website?


FWW/BW (me)
WH
2nd M for both
Blended Family with 7 kids between us
Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.



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I haven't been able to find a way to bring this up without triggering her anger and retaliation - especially in the context of the D
I have to come back to a point I made earlier on this. But first a preface:
1. You are afraid to elicit her anger because....I suspect because it's no fun to have someone mad at you.
2. And you are afraid to elicit her retaliation because...I suspect you anticipate losing ground in the custody battle and/or divorce war.

Fine.
First - Dr. Harley presented this issue again on Friday's show and reiterated that it's more important for one person to know how the other feels than it is to avoid reactions. He never advocated disrespect, so being respectful is critical. I would expect you would like to genuinely investigate the depression thing because you are concerned for her welfare, no? There's nothing disrespectful about that. Her reaction you can't control. Too bad. You're her husband, you have a right to be heard. [frankly I think she would appreciate it deep down -- waywards are in a very selfish mindset, and bringing it up in the right way would appeal to her self-centered approach to life]

Second - let the lawyers deal with anticipated retaliation. That's what they're for. They are paid to see things objectively, and you are not. I've earned the right to say this. I was extremely fearful during my divorce that ww's Daddy would step in with his deep pockets and pay some lawyer to bury me. My fear ruled many of the decisions I made during the divorce process (INCLUDING my reluctance to shatter my now-exww's fantasy divorce illusion). In retrospect, my fear had no place in the process. No lawyer would have done the things I was afraid were going to happen to me -- the kids are usually the main factor. It's not like the movies.

So, the point. Openness and Honesty is apparently not a big part of your relationship. However, it is always a good policy. I would say even in the divorce process. Regardless of the reactions. I would encourage you to amp up your openness and honesty starting now. It will be good for your kids to see it. You're stbx may actually appreciate it and her respect for you may actually grow...
--just for the record, I also came by this lesson ever so slowly and ever too late...

opt

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Originally Posted by Sbt
Yes, her fantasy D is still in tact. I've tried to chip away at it but I don't think there has been any real progress.

In addition to all we have already discussed I am almost 100% certain my wife has BPD. I can't diagnose her but I can say that I have seen all of the symptoms in the linked articles and the one on relationships I could have written myself.

http://bpdfamily.com/bpdresources/nk_a102.htm

http://bpdfamily.com/bpdresources/nk_a101.htm

http://bpdfamily.com/bpdresources/nk_a108.htm

I wouldn't chip away at it. I'd present it exactly how it's going to be and what she can expect in the event of divorce. In writing if you can. It's only fair. It's honest. She has a right to know what exactly you will tolerate in her divorce.

"WW, in fairness to you I think you should know that if we go through with the divorce, once it's finalized you will not find me being your buddy, pal, friend, lover, BFF, etc. I won't be mean or disrespectful. But it would simply be too painful for me to face you after this terrible tragedy in our lives and the destruction of our family. You will have become in my mind not the cause (I take responsibility for my part in the demise of our marriage), but a very painful emotional trigger. One that I will work hard to eliminate from my life so that I can move on with a healthy outlook and perhaps get into a meaningful relationship one day.
I will not tolerate, a,b,c, etc"
you get the point.
Nothing disrespectful. Stating your boundaries. Fairly giving her the truth and facts.
Better this than finding out after the fact that you had no intention of playing into an unhealthy picture of Divorce, and coparenting, and nightly dinners, and all that happy jazz that waywards love.

Openness and Honesty. It's a wonderful thing. I say that with a couple years of solid experience. My life is way better with it than it was without it.

opt

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I'll work on being more up front ASAP. Yes, of I describe my relationship with her I have developed a deep fear of saying how I feel. I have stuffed my feelings for many years. I believe partially because I don't like conflict but also because she does would often retaliate verbally (she is never wrong) or emotionally (silence, body language, etc). I realize this probably sounds rediculous but that's how I feel. I have huge levels of anxiety disproportionate with the topic. Interestingly I have non of that in interactions with other people, I believe generally because I seem to get rational responses from other people.

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It doesn't sound ridiculous at all sbt. I lived it for many years myself. I believe we tend to be different with our spouses (and other loved ones) because there is more at stake.
There is also so much more to gain once the fear is conquered.

opt

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Just to add: I believe I've read Melody saying conflict avoiders often wind up divorced. I did a lot of conflict avoiding, and here I am. My ex was never wrong either; in retrospect however, we had very poor negotiation skills and new nothing of POJA.

Dr. Harley says often that he has conflicts with his wife every day. It's how you deal with the conflicts. Something that really jumped out at me was that he says most people aren't stubborn or inflexible, they simply haven't learned how to negotiate yet.

Anyway I just think now is the time to let your true feelings be heard. After the D is final, it's really too late.

opt


Me: 43 y.o. BFWH, D-day 11/11/09 (NC since 9/01)
Divorce from WW final 9/16/10.
Current Status: MB-based Marriage to Nature Girl 12/8/12 (first date on 12/11/10)
Mine: S(16), D(11)
NatureGirls: S(23), D(21)
Another EA Story
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I know and I'm trying not to avoid conflict - been working on that for a couple years and getting better. I have told her I would prefer we were open and honest and have exposed her to the concepts of POJA and negotiating. In response she asked to stop treating her like a two year old. I've been trying and will continue to try. BTW, I don't think I have avoided all conflict. It just took me a while to recognize my anxiety about it and take intentional action to overturn it.

Interestingly, I believe she is looking for someone who avoids conflict. The only people she has around her are people that are scared to challenge her on anything.

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At the risk of being very unhelpful I will just say that mocking you is a tactic of people who like to manipulate others. Obviously it is a lovebuster of proportion; if she were to adhere to some basic concepts, she would not be intimidating you with DJ's and AO's.

The sad thing is that behavior like that tends to perpetuate itslft into the next generation. Not genetically but through pure learning and observation. I believe it becomes our job as the enlightened spouse to strive even harder to set a positive example. Ultimately the hope would be that the kids would eventually see which types of behavior tend to lead to more happiness in life.

I realized from reading here how important it was for my kids to see at least one parent with some integrity. Since then I've paid attention to boundaries with myself and others - trying to set an example of how one is to guard against poor decision making. We can't change our spouse's behavior (or anyone else's). The best we can do is set an example for ourselves and others, and then be confident others will notice.

opt


Me: 43 y.o. BFWH, D-day 11/11/09 (NC since 9/01)
Divorce from WW final 9/16/10.
Current Status: MB-based Marriage to Nature Girl 12/8/12 (first date on 12/11/10)
Mine: S(16), D(11)
NatureGirls: S(23), D(21)
Another EA Story
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Anybody ever seen this? She just started going to a support group for battered and abused women claiming she has been in a controlling and abusive relationship.

Last edited by Sbt; 02/07/12 07:04 PM.
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Originally Posted by Sbt
I'll work on being more up front ASAP. Yes, of I describe my relationship with her I have developed a deep fear of saying how I feel. I have stuffed my feelings for many years. I believe partially because I don't like conflict but also because she does would often retaliate verbally (she is never wrong) or emotionally (silence, body language, etc). I realize this probably sounds rediculous but that's how I feel. I have huge levels of anxiety disproportionate with the topic. Interestingly I have non of that in interactions with other people, I believe generally because I seem to get rational responses from other people.

Originally Posted by optimism
Just to add: I believe I've read Melody saying conflict avoiders often wind up divorced. I did a lot of conflict avoiding, and here I am. My ex was never wrong either; in retrospect however, we had very poor negotiation skills and new nothing of POJA.

Dr. Harley says often that he has conflicts with his wife every day. It's how you deal with the conflicts. Something that really jumped out at me was that he says most people aren't stubborn or inflexible, they simply haven't learned how to negotiate yet.

Anyway I just think now is the time to let your true feelings be heard. After the D is final, it's really too late.

opt

I also wish I had been more upfront with my feelings and had not avoided conflict. That led to many, many issues that possibly could have been resolved. Act on it while you can.

Linus


Me: BH 60 - Married 21 years
ExW had an EA beginning 09/09 (Facebook)
After a few false recoveries, I filed for D 05/11
D final 03/12

'Be Mindful of Your Many Blessings and Endeavor Daily to be Worthy of Them'
Jay Severin

'Life is a gift and it offers each of us the privilege, the opportunity and the responsibility to give something back by becoming something more'
Tony Robbins
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