A primary cause of this is you. You have established a disrespectful environment in which she is not safe to be open. She can never learn the skill unless you make it safe.

You'll have to establish safety and then wait for her to open up a little, and then make it extra, EXTRA safe, repeatedly, every time she does this, in order for her to develop this skill.

Yeah, I'm not buying this.

You're a grown man, who is afraid that his wife will use the thoughts and feelings you've written here against you? Funny that you never mentioned her being abusive to you. You only said she didn't express her feelings to you enough...and give you enough SF. One would think if she was abusive to you, you'd have at least mentioned this problem.

I'm pretty sure there's ANOTHER reason you don't want her to find this thread.

You gonna come clean w/ it or not?

She was never open before, but I was 20 and did not know anything about that stuff... I don't mean to be disrespectful, I'm just trying to provide an honest portrayal. She is quick to tell me she does not openly communicate feelings or emotions, so it's not just my assessment...

Ok, fine. I'm busted. Yes she has been abusive all these years and has said some of the most hurtful and damaging things over the years. She is the 'blowup and say hurtful things' type of fighter. To be honest I did not think of it as 'abusive' but rather a failure to effectively communicate using loving and caring words, and so perhaps that is why I did not think of it that way.

I'm not sure how to demonstrate this more than I do now. I have always demonstrated that I am a safe place for any thoughts and feelings she has. There was a moment in the past where I caught her in a secret (just something personal) that many spouses might have had a problem with, and yet I expressed compassion and acceptance and it just made me love her more. Again, she agrees with my assessment of me being a safe place, she just simply won't share.

Nope, Oregon. What you have demonstrated is that you want to say your piece, and if she disagrees with you, you want her to keep her mouth shut. I can imagine that you have trained her over the years that if she speaks her mind, you shut down and shut her out. I can attest that some women get yelly because they are not being heard.

IF you are willing to open this huge wound, it can heal. It will be disgusting for a little while, and you will both be tempted to pick it, but eventually, applying MB salve will heal it. (it is horrible metaphor day, didn't you know?)

You say she won't share, but you are the one here afraid she will find your thread! My goodness!

Not much of a troll, if you couldn't come back w/ a more creative post than that one.

You might have been able to keep this thread up for another day.

Hi OregonBoy. I Havent posted here in many years but have "lurked" around and I have been following your thread and it prompted me to sign back on and post to you.

I relate some to what you have posted about your wife being unable (unwilling) to communicate her feelings and deepest thoughts to you.

My H and I married VERY young, (too young) and were both very emotionally immature. My H was always good at expressing his deep thoughts and feelings to me (this is what drew me to him actually) I was not. I felt I had to protect myself and never make myself vulnerable. I had walls so high it was a fortress of protection.

I was afraid of having my feelings used against me or of allowing myself to get too close to him and being hurt by the person most important to me and that I needed the most.

I believe I had many reasons for this, many that involve my childhood, however, I want to be very clear Dr. Harley teaches you do not need to revisit childhood issues, as it is not going to fix what is going on now in the marriage. I agree 100%.

My H did things that made me feel unsafe about sharing deep thoughts and feelings with him, so I protected myself and HURT myself in the process! I was not even willing to communicate about that correctly! I worried about him "knowing" how much I needed him and loved him would make me MORE vulnerable and seemed too risky.

Bottom line I think your wife may also have trouble being vulnerable to you. I think you have done things to make her feel unsafe. Top example being the EA you had with the co-worker. I know you do not consider this to have been an EA, but IT WAS, then you confessed to your wife but mostly because you wanted her to feel jealous and "magically" start to share deep feelings and express her deep love and admiration in you. Wrong! I am sure this cut like a knife and PROVED to her more then ever SHE CAN'T TRUST you enough to open herself!

Can you see that? Please open yourself to the advice everyone is trying to give you here. You are being very defensive and closing off to what is being offered. We can ONLY advise YOU and instruct YOU because your wife is not here...YOU are.

Please stop thinking YOU are not part of the problem here.

Do you not value your marriage enough to bring her to Marriage BUILDERS?

The moment I saw ok fine, I'm busted I thought YOU would come clean about YOUR TRUE role in this mess. Instead came HER BIGGER role in this mess...

Markos pointed out the safe environment for her. Are you physically or verbally abusive, have been, still are?

I have not been, nor have I ever said a derogatory or hurtful thing purposefully to her. And I have certainly never physically hurt her. The only times I have ever hurt her were when I was openly sharing my desires and needs. For example, about 6 weeks ago I very gently and lovingly said, "I feel a desire to be needed by you." - This was met with feelings of inadequacy from her, and she gets immediately defensive, etc. She will later come and apologize for the defensive posture, but the pattern is almost always the same. So I have been torn about openly sharing my feelings with her. As long as I am happy and am not articulating any problems, she's happy and is unaware of any problems and there is peace between us. But when I share anything from my heart about something I desire from her, it's always a big conflict. She is unable to resolve conflict, so it almost always boils down to me apologizing for sharing, and me being the peacemaker and making things right. My counselor once told me to quit doing that and allow her to be the peacemaker and make everything right, and nearly a week went by with the most horrible tension and she was very weepy and communication was non-existent. If I don't back-pedal and be the peacemaker, we simply don't have any peace...

In addition to this, I have no memory of her ever coming to me with any desire at all. So when we have peace, there are never times when she has ever approached me and asked for anything. Other than the occasional household duty kind of stuff. But in 15 years there has never been a single occasion when she has asked for anything related to intimacy or affection or communication, because she has always had those.

You would benefit immensely from your wife coming here.

You said you've NEVER said a derogatory or hurtful thing purposefully to her?

RE: OW
"I went home and told my wife, hoping she might recognize I was desireable and maybe feel a little jealousy"

You are a SERIOUS PROBLEM in this and you fail to recognize it, it is you who is completely lacking in empathy (who knows, maybe she is too). Until we hear her side of it, I'm afraid nobody here is going to believe you are such an innocent victim as you claim.

You say you are the peacemaker, apologizing when it's not your fault to make things right? SHE apologized for your inappropriate boundaries with another woman.

Why does she not open to you? I wonder... is it because no matter what she says, you're always right and she's always wrong? Why would anyone bother opening up to you? You make it obvious that you refuse to own any responsibility for what you do.

Goodness sakes, you guys are harsh. I've never heard such judgmental statements in my life. I did not tell her about this woman hitting on me to hurt her, here were the motives for that...

1. Something like that I considered a big deal and I wanted her to know about it.
2. I hoped that she would recognize that I was a desirable man.
3. Her feeling slightly jealous would hopefully motivate her to demonstrate her affection for me.

I'm not saying these were the right motives, but what I am saying is that none of it was to hurt her, clear and simple. She may have been hurt, but it was not my intent certainly.

I have admitted over and over to my role in all of this, and how my insistence on seeking intimacy and sharing openly has been the catalyst for our problems. That's all my fault, and I quickly admit to it. I know that it is in my desire for intimate communication that has been the most frustrating to her...

I've said this before, but I will say it again. She did not apologize for my inappropriate boundaries, she apologized for not meeting my emotional needs. I'm not sure why this keeps coming up. You guys continue to try and drag something out of me or convince me to admit to something, and I keep explaining the situation and correcting your misperceptions and you guys don't seem to want to listen.

I know you all want me to be the enemy SO bad, but I'm not sure why...

Everyone wants to major on this relationship, that was hardly a relationship at all, that lasted maybe two weeks, and was limited to texting primarily, instead of on the 13 1/2 years of abuse and neglect. I just don't get it. It seems we are majoring on minors if you ask me.

One more thing... Everyone keeps insisting she come here, I mentioned in one of my early posts, that she and I spent a couple hours going through the articles and reading them out loud to each other. We went through all the emotional needs stuff, we went through the policy stuff, we went through the infidelity stuff, etc., and we talked for hours more about it all and how it applies to us, etc.

So she HAS been here... On the forum, no, but on the site and in the articles, yes.

But you have to understand, she has no interest in the energy it would take to work a program like this. It's just too emotionally taxing and requires too much communication, and it requires too much hard work. She just doesn't think like that. But that applies to her entire life. She's not one to investigate anything, or research, or dig into something. She has no hobbies and she shares with no one...

I meant to mention this earlier. For our entire marriage I have had romantic and powerful emotional feelings for my wife although she was not cultivating them. So I do not believe it is my sole responsibility to cause her to be IN LOVE with me. All she ever had to do was be alive and breathing, and that was enough for me to pour myself into her. So I don't by it.

And the 20+ hours of UA time you speak of causing it just is absolutely not true. I know I am throwing a wrench into your system, but it is simply the truth. I easily and often spend 20+ hours with her solely focused on her without TV or anything else distracting us, and have done so for the entire length of our marriage, and although things are much better now it certainly did not create romantic feelings in her for that first 13 1/2 years...

I'll take you at your word that you have done an excellent job of meeting her ENs, that she has seemed incapable of meeting yours despite clear communication and counselling, and that, having looked through the MB website and read the articles she refuses to work on meeting your ENs.

In that situation, you can either accept things as they are and stay in the marriage, or end it.

Dr Harley has advice on when and how to end the marriage here When to call it quits.

"Some people wait and hope for a change of heart. But as I mentioned earlier, time can go by very quickly. Before you know it, 20 more years will have passed without any improvement.

It�s sad to consider how many people put up with a loveless marriage and simply live independently. In fact, about 20% of all married couples die having been separated for many years. And while another 20% continue to live together, they don�t have much of a relationship�it�s like your marriage. Only about 20% have a romantic relationship throughout marriage�they meet each other�s intimate emotional needs.

If you want to be among the 20% that are happily married, you may need to do something drastic�like follow my plan. Or you will become one of the 20% that live together unfulfilled (like you are now), the 20% that stay married, but eventually separate for the rest of their lives together (like you may end up), or the remaining 40% who throw in the towel and divorce.

I strongly encourage you to be among the 20% with a very fulfilling marriage. While your husband may not like my plan at first, especially if you separate from him, if it succeeds, he will be a much happier man. He will come to recognize, as you do, that a great marriage requires a mutual effort. Both spouses must take their marital responsibilities seriously by meeting each other�s intimate emotional needs."

I was about to echo SugarCane, to consult "when to call it quits", if you have truly been in such a one-sided marriage for almost 15 years. Or at least attempt speaking with the Harleys - because I'm sorry OregonBoy, a lot of things don't add up and I suspect most posters here want her to post because she may fill in the gaps.

How can you tell your wife about an inappropriate behaviour, hoping that she would become jealous, and NOT think that you will hurt her? Have you ever experienced jealousy in your life? It is, in itself, painful. I'm sorry you think those are the most judgmental statements you've ever heard in your life... but to most wives, their husband talking about another woman's interest to make you jealous is a knife in the stomach.

alis, my concern here is that he has set this problem up as unresolvable. There is nothing that we can suggest that he hasn't already done. I actually don't quite believe in a reluctant spouse who reads through every article on the site, out loud, with her H, and yet refuses to do any marital work. Where did she get the interest to read through all the articles out loud with him, if she isn't interested in his complaints and has no energy to work on her marriage? If she was so uninterested and lacking in motivation, how and why did she stir herself to do so much? I think she put in a great deal of effort, and if she was willing to do that, she can't be unwilling to do a weekly lesson. These two pictures of her do not add up.

However, my disbelief is neither here nor there; it is immaterial, I think. I can see that this poster "knows" that his wife is unchangeable, and has had the opinion of an expert on that. That being the case, there really are only two alternatives. He can either separate from her and only go back if she demonstrates over a period of time that she will work to meet his needs, or he can put up with the situation. Simple logic shows that there are no other alternatives. I don't know what he was looking for when he came to this board saying that his wife was unchangeable. If someone is constitutionally unchangeable, then accept that and either stay or go.

I honestly did not consider that possibility. I saw it through my own point of view. If my wife came to me saying she was thinking about another man, my desire would be to find out what he was doing that I was not, and to begin doing it. My attitude to her would be, "you won't have to worry about him anymore, because I will be more man than he could dream of."

Can you see that? I hoped she would take that stance. That is why it was so devastating when she did not. I truly expected that response...