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Originally Posted by markos
Originally Posted by amIbroken
Sorry but if we were the only ones who developed very bad relationship habits and those habits only developed in unmarried couples, I might agree with that.

Married couples: 80% develop bad relationship habits.

Non-married couples: near-100% develop bad relationship habits.

I listen to the show Daily and if anything I have learned that married people can have the same renters and freeloaders mindset inside a marriage. I know that everything Dr Harley says about just about everything is the truest thing I have ever read or heard. He is the most insightful therapist I have ever come across. I have read a ton of self help books over the years and nothing has ever made sense. I will say that until I read his book and began listening to him I believed cheaters always cheat and every relationship I had ever seen was one form of horrible mistake or another. They either fought constantly or capitulated and suffered. I do not know of one single relationship amongst my friends co-workers or even my DR that is not one or the other. And if I did run up against a happy couple they never told each other their true feelings ever and often had multiple affairs that were just never brought up. So really is it so far off base that I think that this will help me and really even if it only makes me a better person by teaching me better habits wouldn't that be totally worth it anyway.

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Originally Posted by markos
Originally Posted by amIbroken
Read that book thanks we are working together on getting married. He cannot come off the road because we intend to move to the state he lives in so he can run local and not be away overnight. I just wanted advice on how to manage my AO DJ but apparently because I am unmarried I could not possibly feel anything because it's just not the same. Have a nice day.

When you are sarcastic like this, that's a disrespectful judgment.

Now, there's no reason you HAVE to be respectful to everybody, but it might be a good idea to start practicing new habits, at least if you want to overcome a serious habit of DJ and AO. If you know anything about Dr. Harley's works, you know that he sees a progression from SD to DJ to AO. Eliminate the demands and disrespect, and the anger becomes much less of a problem.

Sorry you felt it came across that way Markos would you endevour to help me rewrite it in a way that would be more suitable?

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I don't think anyone here will say that MB material is for married couples only - clearly single people, engaged couples, divorced etc. can benefit from learning these skills and bring those skills to the dating world/marriage.

However, the issue here is that you are clearly in a relationship with a renter, a man who has demonstrated to you most obviously that he is not committed to you (not just by not marrying, but by going and marrying someone else! And being with other women during your relationship).

So, you can try and improve upon yourself by working on DJ and AO habits, but at what point do you recognize that the MB material states that this isn't going to change the relationship in any significant manner?

It's like your foundation is sinking and you are concerned about fixing some touch-up paint jobs -> because you can't control anything else but the paint job. Doesn't change the fact that the house is a severely damaged structure and a pretty paint job isn't going to fix the obvious.

I hope that makes sense. I am not judging you for your situation, who am I to do that? I was myself, a shotgun bride! But it is what it is, and he has made it clear he is not committed to you in the long term, sorry. He has shown that with his actions.

Last edited by alis; 04/03/12 10:13 AM.
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Originally Posted by amIbroken
Originally Posted by markos
Originally Posted by amIbroken
Read that book thanks we are working together on getting married. He cannot come off the road because we intend to move to the state he lives in so he can run local and not be away overnight. I just wanted advice on how to manage my AO DJ but apparently because I am unmarried I could not possibly feel anything because it's just not the same. Have a nice day.

When you are sarcastic like this, that's a disrespectful judgment.

Now, there's no reason you HAVE to be respectful to everybody, but it might be a good idea to start practicing new habits, at least if you want to overcome a serious habit of DJ and AO. If you know anything about Dr. Harley's works, you know that he sees a progression from SD to DJ to AO. Eliminate the demands and disrespect, and the anger becomes much less of a problem.

Sorry you felt it came across that way Markos would you endevour to help me rewrite it in a way that would be more suitable?

I believe what you are saying, expressed non-sarcastically, is "I don't believe the fact that we are unmarried is significant."


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8.
Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010

If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
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Originally Posted by markos
Originally Posted by amIbroken
Originally Posted by markos
Originally Posted by amIbroken
Read that book thanks we are working together on getting married. He cannot come off the road because we intend to move to the state he lives in so he can run local and not be away overnight. I just wanted advice on how to manage my AO DJ but apparently because I am unmarried I could not possibly feel anything because it's just not the same. Have a nice day.

When you are sarcastic like this, that's a disrespectful judgment.

Now, there's no reason you HAVE to be respectful to everybody, but it might be a good idea to start practicing new habits, at least if you want to overcome a serious habit of DJ and AO. If you know anything about Dr. Harley's works, you know that he sees a progression from SD to DJ to AO. Eliminate the demands and disrespect, and the anger becomes much less of a problem.

Sorry you felt it came across that way Markos would you endevour to help me rewrite it in a way that would be more suitable?

I believe what you are saying, expressed non-sarcastically, is "I don't believe the fact that we are unmarried is significant."

I thought I had stated that several posts before this one.

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Originally Posted by amIbroken
Originally Posted by markos
Originally Posted by amIbroken
Originally Posted by markos
When you are sarcastic like this, that's a disrespectful judgment.

Now, there's no reason you HAVE to be respectful to everybody, but it might be a good idea to start practicing new habits, at least if you want to overcome a serious habit of DJ and AO. If you know anything about Dr. Harley's works, you know that he sees a progression from SD to DJ to AO. Eliminate the demands and disrespect, and the anger becomes much less of a problem.

Sorry you felt it came across that way Markos would you endevour to help me rewrite it in a way that would be more suitable?

I believe what you are saying, expressed non-sarcastically, is "I don't believe the fact that we are unmarried is significant."

I thought I had stated that several posts before this one.

Yes, and when you didn't get the effect you wanted, you "escalated" by becoming sarcastic.


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8.
Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010

If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
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Yes, Markos which was why I came here for advice I was aware of my issues! Thanks

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Originally Posted by alis
I don't think anyone here will say that MB material is for married couples only - clearly single people, engaged couples, divorced etc. can benefit from learning these skills and bring those skills to the dating world/marriage.

However, the issue here is that you are clearly in a relationship with a renter, a man who has demonstrated to you most obviously that he is not committed to you (not just by not marrying, but by going and marrying someone else! And being with other women during your relationship).

So, you can try and improve upon yourself by working on DJ and AO habits, but at what point do you recognize that the MB material states that this isn't going to change the relationship in any significant manner?

It's like your foundation is sinking and you are concerned about fixing some touch-up paint jobs -> because you can't control anything else but the paint job. Doesn't change the fact that the house is a severely damaged structure and a pretty paint job isn't going to fix the obvious.

I hope that makes sense. I am not judging you for your situation, who am I to do that? I was myself, a shotgun bride! But it is what it is, and he has made it clear he is not committed to you in the long term, sorry. He has shown that with his actions.

I appreciate your point of view but I would disagree. I think Dr Harley's books and techniques are the foundation not the paint. I think all the superfluous stuff that seems to be bogging down any helpful discourse is the paint.

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I understand you disagree - but I don't understand why you would believe that this man has ever had any real long-lasting commitment to you. He had a relationship with another woman shortly after you had your baby, you guys didn't marry in 12 years, he married someone else after, and now he's just repeating the situation again with another woman.

You see this as superfluous - do you think, that by stopping all your AO's and DJ's, that he will suddenly decide to commit to you after all? You've been on this rollercoaster for at least a decade or two - are you believing actions or words here?

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Originally Posted by amIbroken
I think Dr Harley's books and techniques are the foundation not the paint.

Dr. Harley has said a lot of things that you seem to have missed, despite having all of his books.

Since your first post on this site, have you reread Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders? I would definitely give it another look, and start listening to the radio show daily. Dr. Harley talks about anger practically every week.


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8.
Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010

If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
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Originally Posted by alis
I understand you disagree - but I don't understand why you would believe that this man has ever had any real long-lasting commitment to you. He had a relationship with another woman shortly after you had your baby, you guys didn't marry in 12 years, he married someone else after, and now he's just repeating the situation again with another woman.

You see this as superfluous - do you think, that by stopping all your AO's and DJ's, that he will suddenly decide to commit to you after all? You've been on this rollercoaster for at least a decade or two - are you believing actions or words here?

We are working the program diligently. If he were not this discussion would have never taken place. He suggested the book. He has agreed to therapy or anything else we feel we need. He is working on his EP list and has it completed for us to go over. He has deleted his facebook. He has eliminated all his female friends as he now understands he cannot have them because he has boundary issues. He has sent multiple letters of apology. He did the exposure with his family which was very difficult for him. He sent a NC letter and basically there is no threat they will ever speak again with the response he got. I have access to the phone records and accounts. I have all his passwords. He wants me to put a keylogger on his computer so I can check up on him at anytime. He has asked his mother to keep him accountable. He no longer goes out with his male friends to drink because that is why the facebook conversation happened. He is not resistant in any way shape or form. He has done the EN questionnaire and so have I. We are doing the workbook Five Steps to Romantic Love which is difficult with his job so he is purchasing his own copy. He reads HNHN or LB to me at night when he can or we take turns depending on which one of us has the book/books. We txt and talk all day long. I am learning about his job and his truck so I can at least hold my own in a conversation about it. I may actually take a mechanics course so I can fix it when it breaks down. I am rather mechanically inclined so it really wouldn't be a stretch if I enjoyed it. I have a hard time with DJ I know that and its getting better all the time I was just hoping for some special insight from others who struggle with it. I have started implementing Dr Harley's technique in the radio excerpt and it helps. I guess I was just hoping someone had developed a quick trick that worked for them other then what Dr Harley suggests cause it takes me a bit to get there. Usually it happens when SO is just unaware he has just hit a trigger when I feel it should have been obvious. I know this is a matter of perception but can't really help the reaction just yet. Like I said we are working on it.

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We brainstormed and found our own solution. Thanks!

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5025b_qa.html

The longer you live together prior to marriage, the less the risk of divorce until after 8 years of living together, when the risk of divorce is equal to those who have not lived together.

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Thanks for including the link. I'm afraid your single line taken out of context doesn't really show what was being said:

Quote
The point made by the authors is that, overall, the risk of divorce after living together is 80% higher than the risk of divorce after not living together, which is already too high. In other words, those who live together before marriage are almost twice as likely to divorce than those who did not live together. But they also point out that the risk of divorce is even higher if you don't live together more than three years prior to marriage. The longer you live together prior to marriage, the less the risk of divorce until after 8 years of living together, when the risk of divorce is equal to those who have not lived together.

Basically - if you live together 8 or more years before marriage, you've increased your chance of a successful marriage to be equal to those who did not live together before marriage. (which is still way too high a chance)

Dr Harley closes that article with:
Quote
Simply stated, if you live together before marriage, you will be fighting an uphill battle to save your marriage.

Last edited by Youdeservebetter; 04/05/12 08:08 AM.
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Originally Posted by Youdeservebetter
Thanks for including the link. I'm afraid your single line taken out of context doesn't really show what was being said:

Quote
The point made by the authors is that, overall, the risk of divorce after living together is 80% higher than the risk of divorce after not living together, which is already too high. In other words, those who live together before marriage are almost twice as likely to divorce than those who did not live together. But they also point out that the risk of divorce is even higher if you don't live together more than three years prior to marriage. The longer you live together prior to marriage, the less the risk of divorce until after 8 years of living together, when the risk of divorce is equal to those who have not lived together.

Basically - if you live together 8 or more years before marriage, you've increased your chance of a successful marriage to be equal to those who did not live together before marriage. (which is still way too high a chance)

Dr Harley closes that article with:
Quote
Simply stated, if you live together before marriage, you will be fighting an uphill battle to save your marriage.

Yeah I did read the whole article. Yeap I did only clip the snippet from the article because that was what I wanted to focus on, absolutely. Our odds are no different then anyone else's at this point. He is my best friend and I am his, he's my favorite companion. He is like my favorite worn out pair of jeans. When we are together it feels like home.

It's like this for us. Imagine we're on top of a mountain and the terrain is really treacherous you know you need to get down(or go up your choice) from the mountain. The problem is your an inexperienced climber and you don't have all the appropriate tools. You work you way around huge rocks and boulders, sometimes you have to scoot down them on your backside, but you making progress. The problem is it's a really big mountain. Then one day and experienced professional climber comes along who is sure they can help you get down. The problem is their equipment is faulty and one of you almost takes a disastrous short cut to the bottom. So you go on struggling navigating the deadly terrain sometimes slipping sometimes falling but you can see your destination so clear you just can't give up. Then another experienced climber comes along and shows you something that was there all along but you couldn't see, it's a path right down the mountain face. It will take you a while to get to it but he promises once your there it's the easiest way off the mountain. So we follow him and we are making our way to the mountain path.


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Those results, though, were from couples who lived together daily without all the splitting up, other people, and illegitimate children involved, no? Oh, and also were MARRIED eventually.

Your situation does not compare, not even close.


Marriage is the triumph of imagination over intelligence. Second marriage is the triumph of hope over experience.
(Oscar Wilde)
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Originally Posted by CWMI
Those results, though, were from couples who lived together daily without all the splitting up, other people, and illegitimate children involved, no? Oh, and also were MARRIED eventually.

Your situation does not compare, not even close.

Reread the article never found the criteria for the study groups involved stating any of the information you posted.


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I just read the original study on Jstor, and Dr. Harley has actually misstated the data about 8 years. From the study: "After the first 8 years of marriage, marriage dissolution rates for cohabitorss and noncohabitors converge to the extent that any differences are small and statistically insignificant."

They did control for premarital birth and breaks ups.

The risk of divorce converges after 8 years of MARRIAGE, not cohabitation.

I don't know how to link to it, since it is a password-protected database I am using (college student here), but if you have access to Jstor, the article is there and the quote is on page 134 of the journal.


Marriage is the triumph of imagination over intelligence. Second marriage is the triumph of hope over experience.
(Oscar Wilde)
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Good sleuthing CWMI - I listened to the radio program today and coincidentally, Dr. Harley says "if you disagree with something I've said or have found an error PLEASE bring it to my attention"

You should let him know so he can correct his essay.

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I emailed him.


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The biggest risk is from years 2-8 of the marriage after cohabitation.

I'm glad we made it past that mark, and I totally agree with the results. We lived together in a house we bought together for 8 months before we got married. 2-8 were hell!


Marriage is the triumph of imagination over intelligence. Second marriage is the triumph of hope over experience.
(Oscar Wilde)
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