Thanks Brain - I don't know why but I have trouble navigating this site sometimes to find things.

Good articles. Let me ask the likely most common question - when committing to the POJA - doesn't the (in the case of money) spouse who spends the least (is most frugal, cheapest, whatever) get the sort of immediate power?

They could find it difficult to be enthusiastic about ANY spending - which would lead to no spending by default.

That's why you need to use the entire program. Even the most frugal spouse wants their spouse, that they are in love with, to be happy and enjoy life. POJA is easy when two people are in love.

No spending may be the default while they are falling back in love. There are a lot of temporary defaults while rebuilding a marriage.

Thanks CWMI -

I think "enjoying life" is something that I often lose focus of - both for my spouse and for me and that is a REALLY bad thing.

Thanks for your post as it really gave me a message that I needed to hear.

We are still working through the book - think we're discussing chapter 8 - independent behavior next (maybe tonight) and I will continue to post questions I have.

The experience has been great so far (even though I acknowledge that I still have a long way to go)

Well that was discouraging. We talked about the chapter on independent behavior (I believe IB is the LB that causes me the most pain in our marriage).

It was a calm, non-angry discussion. But she changed her tune from 'Dr. Harley is logical and makes a lot of sense' to 'I just don't know, some of it makes sense, but other parts don't'.

She said:
- 'but I just want to do the things that I want to do'
- 'but there have been things you would have said no to, that you actually ended up having fun doing' (ie - just keep going along with what I say because sometimes it works out ok)
- 'but I don't really ever say no to the things you want to do, so this (poja) would just give you all the control'

The cherry on top was when she brought up something from the past. About 3 years ago we had a newborn (a few months old) and wife was very down, tired, etc, etc (understandable I know since she is a SAHM). She'd experienced some postpartum with our first child and I was worried that she might be there again. I encouraged her to talk to a counselor. She saw the counselor two times for 1 hour each time and at both sessions, the counselor's input seemed to be (I wasn't there) that "your husband sounds very controlling" (I do not believe that I am).

At that time, I disagreed with it as well. I didn't understand how the counselor could label me without ever having met me or spoken with me. I asked at the time if we could talk to the counselor together - so that I could at least answer some questions and be involved in the discussion before being labeled as a 'problem' - but my wife decided instead that she didn't really need to see the counselor anymore.

Fast forward 3 years to last night and she said "that counselor said you were controlling...and I didn't really think so...but now I kind of wonder" she went on to say that she thought either consciously or subconsciously - me trying to get us on the MB program was really just me trying to control her.

At the close of our conversation I said 'I feel like I'm saying that this relationship isn't working that well and that I need things to be different...and I feel like you're saying 'no, things are fine just keep going along with it.'

She basically had no response but within a few seconds was just talking normally about something else - which made it seem to me that my comment had absolutely no impact on her (or wasn't taken seriously)

I had been keeping "let's talk to Steve Harley" in my back pocket -- but if she thinks I'm just trying to be controlling - she's never going to go for that - she'll think I'm just trying to use him to further my perceived agenda.

I'm not controlling!!!
I want an equal marriage where both of our feelings/wants/desires are considered before decisions are made.
I can't name a single aspect of our lives where I am controlling (or even where she lets me lead!)

So I'm just feeling very, very discouraged this morning. I don't see the point in continuing the book if she believes my agenda is to gain control - when my actual, honest, true agenda is just that we have the best marriage possible with the greatest chance to make it 'til death do us part'

You are enthusiastic about donating $5000 to charity. She is also enthusiastic about that. She is enthusiastic about donating $10,000 as well. Her resentment of you all not donating the extra $5000 is less than yours of having to donate $5000 more. If she truly says no to $5000, then the default is to do nothing.

To negotiate you could go over your budget (realistic budget) and you could say where you think money should go and why. She can say where she think it should go. She can say that she is willing to give up pedicures that she normally gets and donate that money to charity. You may be happy with that. She may say she is willing to give up vacations to donate the money to charity. You many not be happy with that. You may think you need to save every extra cent and she may say that she would really like to donate SOME money to charity an dperhaps you think of a charity that you are both happy with.

"Controlling!" is the favorite refrain of the die-hard IBer. I would try to not defend yourself or argue against it too hard. IME, they know the truth, and your wife said it: she wants to do what *she* wants.

And she just learned that she would need to consider you if she went all-in with MB. That is scary to the person who is accustomed to doing what they want, when they want.

Try explaining to her that you think you might not have a good grasp on the program and would like to speak with Steve to get a clearer picture. Ask her if she would like to join you. Tell her you have no intention of being controlling, and the way you understand POJA is that it would make 'control' impossible, but maybe you are misunderstanding how it works. Just one call. And if you both don't agree to go forward with coaching from there, you won't, but you would appreciate the time with an expert to get a clearer picture of what it means and how it might be useful to your marriage. Or not. You'd like the opportunity to decide together after talking to him.