So what's going on? See the counselor yet?<P>------------------<BR>Prayers & God Bless!<BR>Chris<BR>For relationship info check out <A HREF="http://www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html" TARGET=_blank>www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html</A>

Yeah, what he said!

Yeah!

Helloooooooo! Is anyone home today?

***MAYA HAS LEFT THE BUILDING***<P>(Maya, getcher bu++ out here!)

Hopin' Maya sees this thread soon! <P>------------------<BR>/// Lone Star * ///<P><BR>

Hi Maya,<BR> I saw you post to someone and wanted to know that you are wanted!!!........Lu

Yeah, me too! Posted to you on my thread Maya ...

***UPDATE***<P>There have been two recent "Maya sightings"... apparently she has re-entered the building... but she is darting around and keeping herself mostly hidden... apparently she knows she's a Wanted Woman... she seeems distressed... we must approach her very gently and carefully so as not to frighten her off...<P>*Yoo-hooooo....Maya? Maya, are you here? You can come out now... please, Maya?*<P>(Anybody hear anything?? Is that rustling?! *DAYAM*!! I think we just missed her again!)<P>*C'mon out, Maya, we miss you*...

<BR>I'm getting flashbacks to Wild Kingdom!<BR><P>------------------<BR>/// Lone Star * ///<P><BR>

Maya, Are you okay or should we let this thread die?<P>------------------<BR>Prayers & God Bless!<BR>Chris<BR>For relationship info check out <A HREF="http://www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html" TARGET=_blank>www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html</A>

Hi, Maya,<P>I'm so sorry you're not doing well right now. Also, I apologize if my levity was inappropriate & hurtful (hope not, that wasn't my intent!)<P>Good luck to you wherever your journey leads you... at least *please* promise us you'll pop in from time to time & let us know how you're doing. We'll miss your sense of humor around here!<P>Suse

Just kinda curious what happend to Maya's & whodat's posts on this thread?

Chris:<P>I deleted mine; I don't want to cause Maya any more anxiety.<P>------------------<BR>Resentment is like taking poison and waiting for the other person to die

And I deleted mine so as not to embarrass Whodat in any association with me.

Maya,<P>I live where you live... if you need anything, and I can help, I'd be happy to... let me know how to reach you... I don't want to publish my phone number or email here.<P>Take Care,<P>yy

Oh, good grief, Maya...<P>If I didn’t care, I wouldn’t have reacted with such frustration, OK??? I’ll <B>never</B> be embarrassed to be associated with you; quite the contrary. You have such drive and fire, and it saddens me to see your pain, because I <B>know</B> you can have a great marriage! <P>Same path, remember? <P>------------------<BR>Where the heart is willing, it will find a thousand ways; but where it is unwilling, it will find a thousand excuses.<BR>

Somehow you don't remember your words, Whodat .... they stung .....<P>And sure they were true ... you nailed me perfectly. Yes, my husband deserves far better ... a fact I'm so well aware of. And yes, you're right ... divorce is the only option. But sadly, my H won't let me go. (yes, I asked again last weekend)<P>Therefore I AM STUCK. Perhaps one day you'll be reading about me in the papers.<P>I don't want to re-build my marriage. I don't want to even ASSOCIATE with any men. I hate men in general. <BR>

yy:<P>You can e-mail me at maya_bryan@hotmail.com<P>Are you a man?

Maya, you should know by now that tact is not my strong suit. <P>But after months of talking to you, and still more time trying to shake you, sometimes stinging is all that’s left. Sometimes, the truth hurts. If there’s anything wrong with this wonderful community, it’s that there’s just too much enabling of bad behavior going on here. Not that comfort isn’t <B>very</B> necessary, but a lot of time people really need a hard shake (or sting) to show them the reality of the situation instead of more hugs. The hugs will always be there, but we’ve got to fix what is wrong too. Marriage<B>Builders,</B> not MarriageCoasters. Coasting along thinking everything would always be great is what got most of us into this situation in the first place.<P>I just don’t feel a <B>true</B> friend would sit back and tell you, “It’s OK Maya... just sit back and true happiness will come to you on a golden platter.” Only you can fix whatever may need fixing within you. Don’t do it for your H, or your kids, but if you’re ever going to interact with another <B>person</B> (and not just a man), then you need to work on making yourself the best Maya you possibly can.<P>------------------<BR>Where the heart is willing, it will find a thousand ways; but where it is unwilling, it will find a thousand excuses.<P><BR>

You're right, Whodat. A true friend doesn't sugarcoat the truth. But you didn't tell me ONE SINGLE thing that I didn't already know.<P>The ball is INDEED in my court. These are the facts:<P>1. I hate myself<BR>2. Because I hate myself, I probably cannot allow H close to me because I don't feel like I deserve this unconditional love he's pouring on me.<BR>3. Going to the same church is causing me to hate myself everytime I walk in the doors ... I am met with the stares of people I disappointed and/or hurt. <BR>4. My H refuses to switch churches because of our kids (stability and friends there)<BR>5. Because of THIS I have decided to worship during the week at another church, perhaps go to their Sat. night service <BR>6. I will still have to go to church A because H wants us to go "as a family". You know, for the show.<BR>7. I'm also going to attend a bible study class on depression offered by church B.<BR>8. I needed to be honest with H about my feelings ... so I told him I was still unhappy in the marriage, told him I didn't love him like I felt a wife should love her H, and that the only progress I feel I've made over the last year is that I don't want another man. I still, however, want out of the marriage.<BR>9. He asked me what he could do for me. And I told him the only thing he COULD do he WON'T do ... let me go. He said, 'That's not God's will.' <BR>10. And so here I sit.<BR>

Maya:<P>I’d like to respond to this, but I can’t without having something out in the open that resulted in my sending the “stinging” email. Quandry... it’s not my place to post that. If you want me to stop right here, just say so, and I’ll delete this post. If we can continue, here in the open, I need to address that issue.<P>One thing, though...<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I hate myself<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>You’re not trying to say the unconditional love Christ holds for you is wrong, now are you? And who are you to say your hate is stronger than His love?<P> I had a good teacher. <BR><P>------------------<BR>Resentment is like taking poison and waiting for the other person to die

Touche, my friend.<P>I have trouble accepting God's unconditional love also.<P>I just feel like an unworthy piece of CRAP.

Maya, I'm confused about one thing. Don't take this the wrong way. You said your husband won't "let you go." But really, if it's your choice to leave, what can he do about it? You can decide to pack up today and find your own place, and there's not a damn thing he can do about it. Maya, if you really truly want to leave the marriage and be alone, then you have it in your power to do that.<P>I'm not saying you <B>should</B> do that. But I think you're letting your husband have too much power over your life. You're unconciously letting him decide where you should be. Same thing with the church. If your husband loves you unconditionally, then he should understand that you are too pained by going to your old church. What's he gonna do, tie you up and drag you? <P>(btw, personally I don't think ANYONE at your old church is even remotely thinking about how you "disappointed and hurt" them. If anything, they're probably praying that you'll feel better. But that's entirely your perception, which can only change when you forgive yourself, which you already know...)<P>--andy

The church thing is alittle more ... er ... um ... complicated than one might assume.<P>The problem with H "not letting me go" is the God's will thing. God doesn't want to see marriages broken up, but as a friend once told me it's hard to believe that God would want me to sit here and be miserable either.<P>My H has BIBICIAL grounds to divorce me (yeah, I'm hung up on THE LAW) and I have NO grounds .... if he lets me go then we stay "bibicial" .... of course I can't re-marry ... but who the @#$% cares.<P>That's my hang up, Andy. God. Pleasing Him versus pleasing ME.<P>I'm suppose to "wait on the Lord" ... HOW STINKIN' LONG? What if he chooses not to heal my marriage? He choose not to heal my friend of cancer, even though I asked over and over ... and she died. he can CHOOSE not to heal my marriage.<P>Then do I look at it as my "thorn"? Something I just have to live with because the Bible says NO divorce except for this and this and this ..... <P>I'll be on a bridge in my jammies in another year.

Maya, <BR>Don't be so hard on yourself. I pray that you see that the love your H is displaying for you is the love that God has for you. GOD LOVES YOU and He is using your H. Follow it to its logical conclusion. Thank Him for giving you your H and STOP beating yourself up so badly. ALL OF US DON'T DERSERVE THE KINDNESS THAT GOD SHOWS US.<P>MONDO HUG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!<P>------------------<BR>God Bless,<BR>Rob<P><BR>

Maya,<BR>Please don't confuse what you feel or think is right with what God has defined as right. We only seek to have those things that we want. We will NEVER, NEVER, NEVER get to see the utopia that you seek in this part of our lives. That utopia will not happen until the new heaven and new earth are in existence. It is at that time that we will not feel any more pain, sorrow, grief because we will all ne in His presence continually. <P>The pain we experience now is to let us know that everything we have(knowledge, understanding, air, water, food, clothing) all comes from Him. I know it is tough. I go there frequently and cry like a baby when I do. Read my post in the prayer requests section.<P>------------------<BR>God Bless,<BR>Rob<P><BR>

Thanks, Rob. <P>God, I know that. I know that none of us are worthy, not one. I just wish I could figure this out ....<P>I guess you can imagine there are salvation issues too. I know it all so well, can talk about it so eloquently, but where is it in my heart, Rob? Why don't I believe it and have faith in it? I KNOW IT'S there for the taking ....<BR>

Maya,<BR>Please don't think I'm needling you, or dismissing your pain. I'm not.<P>But I was wondering, a few weeks ago you were all ready to throw yourself into meeting your families needs and thereby shift the focus from yourself.<P>Did that go badly? Did it make things worse? Or were you too depressed to even really try effectively? <P>One other thing, when you say you want your H to "let you go", how do you envision your life? Would you have the kids or do you see yourself off on your own?<P>Are there any elements of that new life you envision that you can incorporate into this current life?<P>I'm just happy you are talking, don't answer anything you don't want to.<P>------------------<BR>Faith, Hope, Love Remain,<BR>but the greatest of these is Love.<BR>1 Corinthians 13:13

Hi Maya,<P>From where I sit, you still appear to be clinically depressed. How up-to-date are you with your doctor? Are you both monitoring your anti-depression meds?? It's great to "let God" do all the work, but you need to participate too.<P>Another issue here. Have you thought of doing some counseling with Steve Harley? I really think you could use it, and I'd tell you to give it about 5-10 sessions before you bail. I think he could help you gain some control of your life and your marriage, and you might be able to turn things around.<P>I'm always confused at your situation: you have a husband who you've called "terrific", but you want to DIVORCE him. That doesn't make much sense. You're either suffering from a biochemical depression, or there's a lot of stuff in your marriage that you haven't shared. Either way, I think Steve would help you, and it'd be much preferrable to me to be reading here about how well you're doing in 6 months, as opposed to seeing a suicide obit in the paper.<P>Please do it. Don't think about why you don't want to. Just do it.<P>

Hi Maya,<P>I haven't posted to you in awhile but seeing Suse and my friends so worried about you, I couldn't help but express my feelings too.<P>There are sooooo many things I'd want to say to you. Here are the highlights...<P>* You have SUCH wonderful potential as a person, Maya. We sense sooo strongly how much you can love someone. You NEED to be able to express that. Not keep it in. It's the only way you'll be complete as a person.<P>* Hate? Don't hate yourself for what you've done. Hate the behavior, if you must. But leave it in the past. Live your present and your FUTURE as you believe you should. Don't waste your life doing penance for something in the past. The only true recompense is future-oriented.<P>* You say the only answer is to get out of the marriage. Well...I guess I'll be as direct as my friend WhoDat. What will that solve? You might run out of your marriage but you cannot run away from what you've done. You have to accept that as being part of you and move onwards.<P>* You say you feel unworthy of love. Hmmm... lotsa examples in the Bible (both New and Old) about people feeling unloved. And, to a person, didn't they all find love? Find forgiveness? Are you soooooo bad that you're the ONLY person in 5000 years whose done wrong not worthy of forgivness?<P>*WhoDat's right. Maya, this is a struggle within you. Not with your husband, your kids, your minister, even your ex-OM. This is within you. Yup, you know that. You also know that you can't run away from that one.<P>* You've got plenty of people who care for you. Are you so proud that you cannot accept their love and friendship? Isn't that so arrogant? You don't need it, right? You don't want it? Or.... are you just so afraid? <P>* Lastly...and I'll risk saying this...only because there's a chance it may help to see someone post it: Maya, you don't hate men. Nope, that's a convenient substitute for hating the fact that you're not perfect. "Men" are a convenient way to package up what part of you is thought to be a failure. In YOUR eyes! Not ours.<P>*Maya, you've got to get in touch with that. It may be a scary thing, true. But, you really won't be able to move on until you do.<P>* You sometimes say, "God wills it". How do you KNOW what God wills? I wonder if anyone<BR>ever really does. The closest we can get is to do what we think is right. According to what teachings we've learned. You have the chance to do what's right. You have that chance EVERY day. So, why not today?<P>You've got gifts, woman. You've got a purpose on this planet. Don't waste it.<P>Food for thought, I hope.<P>

WHAT?<P>Tell me how I'm confusing what I feel is right with what God feels is right????<P>It's all there .... black and white. My gosh, if I divorced H I'd be going against God's will for my life, there are those that would question if I'm even a CHRISTIAN for blatantly going against what the Bible says is WRONG .... and worst of all I worry that they're right.<P>

Maya,<BR>He is always there to pick up the pieces. Sometimes it is just a little harder to hear Him speak. My W called me just now and the tone in her voice gives me hope. Yet, she still insists on treating me like a room mate. This hurts me the most since she as the first person to truly try to understand me. I told her this the other night. <P>I keep want Him to tell me that she will be truly saved before I die. He has revealed to me that I will die before she truly understands how much He loves her through me. I keep praying that He will tell me that He is going to do it another way. So I only revel in the thought of knowing that she will be truly saved.<P>Your H does not have a hard heart which is the rest of the requirement for him to have grounds for divorce. REJOICE in knowing that your H doesn't have a hard heart. I studied that portion for a long time because when W had first affair I almost divorced her.<P>------------------<BR>God Bless,<BR>Rob<P><BR><p>[This message has been edited by professorg (edited November 09, 1999).]

FHL, in response to your questions ...<P><BR>Did that go badly?<BR>--YES. I found out I can't do it. <P>One other thing, when you say you want your H to "let you go", how do you envision your life? <BR>--Read the "Separated? Let's list the positives" ... it's in everything they say. <P>Would you have the kids or do you see yourself off on your own?<BR>--both<P>Are there any elements of that new life you envision that you can incorporate into this current life?<BR>--No, I don't like being told where to go to church, having to be accountable to someone for my every move, etc. Marriage is being attached at the hip to someone else. I don't like it. I don't like that he can tell me who I can and can't e-mail. I don't like that if I e-mail the "wrong" person I feel guilty cauz I'm suppose to be honest with my H. <P>Stupid. Yes, I know.

Maya,<BR>God gives everyone the opportunity to redeem themselves up to the moment that you die physically. If you were to confess your sins and ask Jesus to be your Lord and Savior at your very last breath, you would still go to heaven. I believe that this happened, though not at his last breath, with my grandfather. The moment he died I had this peace overcome me. Shortly thereafter my parents got in contact with me and they told me that he died.<P>I was in a missile capsule at the time. I told my commmander that I could wait until the morning to go home because they were going to send someone out to relieve me so that I could prepare to go home for his funeral.<P>God never leaves us hanging. We do that to ourselves. He is always there and He is always on time. He uses everyone and everything to let you know that He cares for you. WE CARE FOR YOU ON THIS FORUM. YOU ARE A BREATH OF FRESH AIR FOR MANY WHO HAVE COME HERE IN GREAT PAIN. YOU ARE AN INSPIRATION TO US ALL!!!!<P>MONDO HUG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!<P>------------------<BR>God Bless,<BR>Rob<P><BR>

You're right, Rob. He doesn't have a hard heart. So I'm obligated to stay because HE WANTS ME. Sheesh.<P>And therefore, I'm like a little trophy ... his security blanket. So what if I'm miserable, he knows I won't leave because of my irrational fear of God.<P>Sheesh. What a life to live. I've got sooooooooo much to look forward to, huh?<P>DMac, thanks for all the kind words. I guess you realize that I just don't get it.

Is your H and church into the wife being submissive thing? There is a wide range of interpretations of this and of course I think you have to take your own personalities into account of how you apply biblical standards in keeping with God's will inside your own marriage.<P>So I guess what I am asking, does your marriage, backed up by your church equate submission with allowing a wife to be controlled by her H?<P>------------------<BR>Faith, Hope, Love Remain,<BR>but the greatest of these is Love.<BR>1 Corinthians 13:13

Maya,<P>You seem to be avoiding me.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Are there any elements of that new life you envision that you can incorporate into this current life? --No, I don't like being told where to go to church, having to be accountable to someone for my every move, etc. Marriage is being attached at the hip to someone else. I don't like it. I don't like that he can tell me who I can and can't e-mail. I don't like that if I e-mail the "wrong" person I feel guilty cauz I'm suppose to be honest with my H. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>If your husband is "enforcing" the above, then you both should IMMEDIATELY go to counseling with Steve Harley. There's lovebusters aplenty here, and you (both) have to learn how to deal with it.<P>If you're convinced that God does not want you to divorce, then do something POSITIVE about your marriage. Please call Steve.

Maya,<BR>I know how it feels to be at those low moments. I feel that my W is there also. I am convinced that she hasn't left for the very same reason. I told her that she would be the unbeliever is she left me. At the time that I said it, I meant it to keep her with me because I needed the security blanket. However, that was with affair #1. I eventually got ot the point where I was comfortable enough to let her go because I love her that much. <P>She hasn't left yet. I know she loves Him. From your post it seems that you are more afraid of Him than the fear that is associated with loving Him. My W has the fear you show in your post for her mother. She loves her mother but is deafly afraid of her in a negative way. She will never admit that because she doesn't see it that way. Her mannerisms say that she is afraid of her mother. Please fear Him in a loving manner rather than being afraid of what He is capable of doing to you.<P>HE LOVES YOU!!!!!!!<P>------------------<BR>God Bless,<BR>Rob<P><BR>

So Rob, you're saying that if your wife left YOU then she's not a Christian?<P>Am I reading that right?

Sorry, K. I'm NOT avoiding you. I promise.<P>That stuff is in your all's coveted POJA contract crap thing. Honesty in all situations. If I'm e-mailing someone that he's not comfortable with me e-mailing than I am obligated to stop.<P>And if he, as head of the house and ultimate decision maker, doesn't want to leave a church, then it is up ot me as the submissive wife to abide by that decision.<P>He knows how I feel ... I'm not going to ram it down his throat.

Yes, at the time I did. My W does not have what some refer to as a saving faith. She goes to church, sings in the choir, does all the things on the surface that a good Christian does. However, her behavior is that of a Christian trying to work their way into heaven. Faith ALONE is what saves you. Once you have a SAVING FAITH, you have an intense desire that causes you to show works. Faith alone and works alone is dead. But when you have both you have true peace in the midst of the storm. I die a thousand deaths everyday because of the way she treats me, yet I love her because He loved me first. Not out of obligation but out of my LOVE FOR HIM. Just as you would do anything for your parents, that is how I feel towards Him.<P>My W is working on getting there. She does what she does because of what she is taught rather than because she truly love Him. The moment she truly loves Him is the moment we got to having problems that we disagree on and work out. If we can't agree on a commmona solution that is appealing to each of us, we then will agree to disagree. We aren't there yet because my W wants to control everything around her because she had no one to support her when she was sexaully abused as a child. I will post a link after I finish this post so that you can read about why sexually abused victims have an intense desire to control everything. We have to surrender all control over to Him love Him.<P>My W does not understand these things because she sees only those things that make her comfortable because she feels that she is in control. I don't fault her because I remember when I went through my control phase.<BR>MONDO HUG!!!<P>------------------<BR>God Bless,<BR>Rob<P><BR>

Hey Maya:<P>I should give you a refresher on the Policy of Joint Agreement:<P>Never Do ANYTHING without a mutually enthusiastic agreement between you and your spouse.<P>So, if you're miserable going to church, he shouldn't be doing it. He should be brainstorming with you to find alternative solutions.<P>If you're emailing someone he's not comfortable with, you should discuss it with him and find a "win-win" solution.<P>I don't see any sign that you feel like you're winning here. And it either because of massive depression, or because your husband is not protecting you from his lovebusters, and not meeting your needs. Pure and simple.<P>So, which is it?? Is it depression?? Or does your husband exhibit behaviors that make you feel controlled, like a trophy, a piece of property, "submissive", etc.<P>I'm really trying to help you here. I'd still prefer that you call Steve, but let's here about how Maya feels about her husband. List all the bad points first.

Maya, <B>Why</B> isn't he comfortable with you emailing someone?

Maya, <BR>Your H is also getting borderline into not being what he professes. He is using God's word to forcce you into something so that he feels comfortable. He should make you feel comfortable. POJA taken to its fullest meaning is the unconditional love that God shows us. He expects nothing in return directly. It means having the other person's best interest regardless of what happens to us. I truly want my W to experience the JOY that I feel inside. The bad thoughts that creep into my head are the attacks that Satan is beating me with. Yes, I start feeling low and want to give. That is when I read something in Psalms and find that David was low a lot of the time. He wanted retribution for those who oppressed him. It is okay to have those feelings. It is what we do in response to those feelings that really counts. In everthing that we do we should be giving God all the glory, honor, and praise. But it is very helpful to know that others experience those feelings. I am sure that you feel that you are the only one. When I read that David felt the same way, I realize that we are still exeperiencing the same things because Satan is still trying to trip us up with our feelings. Satan has his greatest influence when we rely on our feelings rather than the truth that God has placed inn ALL our hearts.<P>------------------<BR>God Bless,<BR>Rob<P><BR>

Chris, because it was a former friend of the OM's. I had no interest in the guy, and he was a pastor and I wanted to debate theology with a "professional" if you will.<P>And I didn't want continued contact with the OM .... in fact I thought it was safe to e-mail this guy because OM has moved yet again to another part of the USA ....<P>Go ahead .. kick me.<P>What don't I like about H ....<P>I don't know ... he just bugs the crap out of me now ... I don't wanna live with him, be accountable to him, have to consciously WORK on meeting his needs, have to be "UP" all the time or else I'm questioned as to what's wrong ... and the answer is the same ol' thing .... not happy. I'm tired of trying to tiptoe around him cauz I don't wanna hurt him.<P>

Maya,<P>Good answer. It appears from the "Dr. K" perspective that you're not comfortable with being completely honest with your husband (the "tiptoing" comment). I'm guessing that your husband's response to your honesty isn't what you desire, so you're getting "adversion therapy" to being honest.<P>Now, on to the details. What is he doing specifically that is bugging you? How does he expect you to be submissive? How would your marriage need to change for you to want to stay?<P>

You've miscontrued the term "tiptoe" ... I'm careful NOT to hurt his feelings, always trying to make sure he feels "needed", etc. etc. etc.<P>Not tiptoeing around trying to get by with something. My life is exceptionally dull. There's nothing for me to get away with anyway. The only thing I'm 'lying' about would be my feelings, I guess. And I came clean on that last week by telling him I'm still unhappy in the marriage.<P>You're missing the point, K. I don't want HIM. Maybe there's too much water under the bridge and I can't go back. I just know that I simply don't want a relationship ... I don't wanna WORK on a relationship. I don't wanna be tied down. There's too much hurt .... I don't wanna be vulnerable anymore ... if I don't love then I don't get hurt. <P>No, that can't be avoided with my kids, but if I'm NOT in a marriage relationship then I don't have to worry about needs not being met, not meeting HIS needs, getting hurt when he doesn't do what he's suppose to, letting HIM down when I fail him. <P>IT'S TOO MUCH PRESSURE.<P>It's mid-life crisis, isn't it?<p>[This message has been edited by Maya (edited November 09, 1999).]

Maya,<BR>Here's the link I was talking about. <A HREF="http://www.gospelcom.net/rbc/ds/cb922/" TARGET=_blank>http://www.gospelcom.net/rbc/ds/cb922/</A> <P>I feel your pain because my W says some of the same things about not wanting to be with me. She doesn't try to meet my needs any more. She wants to be happy. She sees herself as being miserable. I can only show her God's love. Hopefully H is working on his relationship with Him to be a more loving and caring person. He probably is in his insecure phase. I still am to a very small degree in my insecure phase. I have let her know how I feel.<P>I have told her that it is okay to leave me if that is what it will take for her to be happy. Yes, it make her an unbeliever (taken in context of the verse) but it DOES NOT keep her from still becoming saved. ONLY GOD knows where we truly are in our walk with Him. We all fall and He picks us up once we see the error of our ways. Once she understands and is still not married we are to reconcil because He tells us we should. But, I have put it in His hands. I only want His will to be done.<P>It will get better. If the two of you aren't studying His word together and praying together, you might try that. You guys sound much farther along than my W and me. She won't study the Bible with me. I pray that will happen soon. I want to set the best example for our boys. My parents didn't and I didn't realize how very important it is until this year.<P>MONDO HUG!!!!<P>------------------<BR>God Bless,<BR>Rob<P><BR>[This message has been edited by professorg (edited November 09, 1999).]<p>[This message has been edited by professorg (edited November 09, 1999).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Go ahead .. kick me.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>NOT!<P>The question about the email was more of a rhetorical question Maya. Something for you to stop & think about. Personally, I would feel the same way if it had anything to do with the om. My Wife hung around with this girl who was having problems in her marriage & who was my wife's "excuse" while going out with the om. I don't like her because she knew all about the affair. When my Wife returns, she will probably hang out with her because "she's such a friend." Friends don't encourage friends to have an affair & leave their spouse.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>What don't I like about H .... I don't know ... he just bugs the crap out of me now ... I don't wanna live with him, be accountable to him, have to consciously WORK on meeting his needs, have to be "UP" all the time or else I'm questioned as to what's wrong ... and the answer is the same ol' thing .... not happy. I'm tired of trying to tiptoe around him cauz I don't wanna hurt him.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Hmmmmm? My Wife said exactly the same things before she left. When you are in love with someone, you'll bend over backwards to do these things, without ever having been asked. You don't love your H so why do any of this? Why not learn to love your H? It can be done. As K has pointed out, he seems to be Love Busting. Has he learned anything from this site or MB principles? If he is just like he was before, then nothing has changed, except you found God & seem content on "suffering" for His will.<P>------------------<BR>Prayers & God Bless!<BR>Chris<BR>For relationship info check out <A HREF="http://www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html" TARGET=_blank>www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html</A>

YOU'RE ALL MISSING THE POINT!<P>I don't WANT to love my H. I don't WANT to be with him. Period.<P>If "love is a decision", then I've decided I don't want to love him. I don't want to try to love him. I WANT OUT.<P>I personally don't feel that love is a decision.<P>The bottom line is that I stay put because I fear God. Now HOW do I justify THAT?

Maya,<BR>One more question. You H is one issue, but why can't you meet needs of kids?<P>Do you feel disconnected from them? If so, why would that be? <P>Sounds like this may be serious depression talking.<P>------------------<BR>Faith, Hope, Love Remain,<BR>but the greatest of these is Love.<BR>1 Corinthians 13:13

I don't do too bad with my daughters. In fact, they've both been "clinging" to me more than usual (15 and 11). They are wanting to be with me, etc. And that, of course, suffocates me ... I don't know WHY they won't be with their dad.<P>I love them dearly, but don't feel like I'm a real good mother. I look at them and tears well up because there's so much I want for them, so much I wanna be for them ... and I just feel like I fail them (and their dad) daily.<BR>

Hi Maya,<P> I'm so sorry for your pain...I'll probably get jumped on here but have you thought seriously about separating for awhile?...there was a Christian book "Hope for the Separated" which actually advocated it for some marital problems.....I don't know ...maybe you just need alot of space to work things out for yourself...Probably a very bad idea and maybe it would compound it all....I agree with K. maybe Steve Harley can help you ....it sounds like your well is so dry.....Lu

Maya,<BR>I understand that you want OUT. But why do you want out? You can still leave and be saved. There is NO justification. Your post says that you are AFRAID of what God is going to do to you if you don't stay.<P>God will continue to love you just as He loves ALL of us: saved and unsaved alike. You don't have to stay. I would still say that Jesus is the answer that you are looking for. You sound as though you feel that God has you pinned in the corner and He won't let you out. He gave us all free will to do what ever we want. He will still love you if you leave even though that is not what He wants.<P>It is OKAY TO LEAVE. He will still welcome the relationship you want and are seeking to have with Him. There had to be a time when you disobeyed yur parents. They didn't forsake you. God will never forsake you because He is a loving but just God.<P>We all stray from time to time. I still say that Jesus is the answer that you are looing for. It is not really leaving H. You appear to be searching for something that only exists in a much closer relationship with Jesus. I mean this with all the love that He has given me to pass on to you.<P>MONDO HUG!!!!!<P>------------------<BR>God Bless,<BR>Rob<P><BR>You have to LOVE YOURSELF! Please forgive yourself. Jesus can help you to forgive yourself. <p>[This message has been edited by professorg (edited November 09, 1999).]

Thanks Rob. I was finally able to take a breath after reading what you wrote.<P>Thank you very much.<P>I gotta get going (I'm at work). I will be back on tomorrow ....<P>I APPRECIATE ALL OF YOU SO VERY MUCH!

Maya:<P>I think you really should be talking to your doctor about depression, and Steve Harley to work on your marriage.<P>Your point about staying put because it's what God wants is fine. I'd encourage you to stay put. But then DO SOMETHING PRODUCTIVE. You need to work with a professional who has the interests of the marriage first to see if you can save this.<P>If not, then I'd suggest separation. And if nothing changes after 12 months, divorce.<P>But I'm pretty convinced a lot of your issues stem from major-league depression. You often appear to be manic---now that could just be the way you write, but I think it speaks to the way you feel. And it's very true that you're not going to be able to achieve much of anything until you get out of that depression. But my prediction would be that a separation from your family would lead you even further downward. You need to get this under control medically (if you're doctor agrees with this internet diagnosis).<P>I don't mean to come across as picking on you---I've been here on this board since you showed up, and I have a real (virtual) fondness for you. Please take care of yourself.

You say you fear God...but, I don't understand. What are you afraid of? <P>You say you want to leave your husband but won't because of your fear of God. What's the difference between divorce papers being signed and the marriage you are in now? Don't you think God knows what's going on? Are you any less fearful of God living in a marriage where you can say..."I don't WANT to love my H. I don't WANT to be with him. Period."<P>Wouldn't God want your husband to have the opportunity to be in a marriage where his wife truly loved him? Maya, if you want out...then what are you fighting for?<P>I don't know...maybe I'm wrong...I'm not trying to attack you...but, I'm just trying to gain some understanding. How could you blame God for something that you can have control over yourself? Is God really forcing you to do something you don't want to?<P>

Holly, I fear God because -- very basically -- I wanna go to heaven. And I know the rules for going to heaven. They seems simple ... but are very complex ... yea, even HARD at times.<P>Simply faith in Jesus as God's son, sacrificed for my sin ... risen savior.<P>Very possibly this boils down to a spiritual problem all the way around.

Hi Maya<P>I've never posted to you before but I was fascinated by the length of this thread and just had to look in.<P>Going against popular opinion here, I think if you don't love your H and you don't want to be with him anymore you should leave. The principles are all very well and good, but I don't believe they can make you love someone from scratch again. If you don't want to be there, don't be there. You'd be doing both you and your H a disservice by sticking around in a loveless marriage.<P>Just my 2 cents.

I think I have to agree with K here.<P>Give the marriage a chance, that means counseling with a marriage based counselor. At least you know that you have done all possible to help your marriage. Get on anti-deps (or change them?) to help ease the depression, and if after a year or so you still feel the same about your marriage, then seek divorce. But at least help yourself and try to help your marriage first. Being so unhappy is not productive to anyone, especially your family.

gads ... double post<p>[This message has been edited by Maya (edited November 10, 1999).]

I stay because I CAN'T divorce him. I don't have Bibicial grounds. I blatantly sin against God ... disobey His word ... if I go ahead and divorce.<P>I want to please God. And yes, I know that this marriage cannot be pleasing to him. But does he want me to stay in the marriage no matter what I'm feeling like because this is who God put me with and marriage is designed for a lifetime?<P>Yes and No ... He wants me to honor this marriage commitment, but do it with the joy of the Lord in my heart -- I guess that's the part I'm having trouble with. I can't have joy because I'm so miserable in the situation.<P>But that's NOT bibicial either ... Paul in prison, John on Patmos ... think THEY were happy about their situation?<P>However, like I said, God can choose NOT to heal this marriage. He chooses not to heal Christians with cancer, kids with deadly diseases .... he can CHOOSE not to heal the marriage.<P>THEN WHAT? What does he expect me to do? Is this my "thorn"?

Maya,<BR>Do you love Jesus? If you love Him, then you don't have to worry about going to heaven. Study His word and let Him speak to you directly. The answers you are looking for are there. I am not putting down your feelings. But, it is important for ALL of us to realize that our feelings are heavily influenced by Satan. God created feelings but Satan uses them to to get us to disobey. We think that because it feels good (our definition of godd not God's definition) that it is the right thing to do. That is what Satab thought when he decided that he was going to overthrow God and kick Him off the throne. That is where he trips us up every time. I know he is working on me now because I told my pastor and our sons that I want my W to leave because she is bleeding me dry with her cold behavior towards me and her insistance on talking with OM nearly everyday. She does it while she is at work on the cell phone she bought.<P>I can relate. But I still feel that you are condemning yourself because of these thoughts that keep popping in your head. Remember those thoughts pop in your head because of the sinful flesh that Satan has a great influence over.<P>HANG IN THERE!!!! I am praying for you and your family everytime I pray. MONDO HUG!!!!!<P>------------------<BR>God Bless,<BR>Rob<P><BR>

Yes, Rob. I love Jesus, I accept His sacrifice for my sin ... yeah, I know Satan is having a FIELD day with me. He has for a looooooooooong time.<P>So all I have to do is love Jesus, and I can divorce with a clear conscience? Nope.<P>Crap. It's all so hard. It's deep and complex and I'm shallow and simple. I'm a reed in the wind, ya know? I need grounding. Only THEN can I make a decision that I can feel okay about.<P>Correct?

Just out of interest, where does the Bible say it's a sin to divorce? I haven't been to sunday school in a while, but I seem to remember a divorce or two popping up and no one was smitten by lightning or anything.<P>Are there any quotes from the Bible that FLAT OUT say you can't get a divorce?

Maya, <BR>You are not alone in feeling miserable. If I were to focus on the negative aspect of my marriage, I would be saying that God doesn't want me to stay in my marriage. However, the key is to stop focusing on the feelings. Feelings are why we sin. Eve was fooled by Satan because of the feeling of importance. Pride took over because she wanted to be more than what God intended for her to be. <P>The FEELINGS ARE VERY <B>REAL</B>. I know I feel them everyday. I want to be happy but I am not. I do have JOY which supercedes happiness. I focus on doing His will as opposed to obeying Him. The obeying HIm is the result of my desire to do His will which says that I love Him. In loving Him, I love my W, our sons, the entire world and me last. Love is a decision. It starts with loving Him first then everyone else comes into the picture.<P>------------------<BR>God Bless,<BR>Rob<P><BR>

Maya, you are correct. Grounding is what you need. Get your focus on Him ALONE. Your posts indicate that YOU are the center of your focus. You are concerned about you getting into heaven rather than just loving Him which results in you getting into heaven. Your pain will go away once yu have your focus securely grounded in Him.<P>------------------<BR>God Bless,<BR>Rob<P><BR>

Cristalle1,<BR>NIV<BR>Malachi 2:16<BR> "I hate divorce," says the LORD God of Israel, "and I hate a man's covering himself [1] with violence as well as with his<BR> garment," says the LORD Almighty. So guard yourself in your spirit, and do not break faith.<P>------------------<BR>God Bless,<BR>Rob<P><BR>

Cristelle, Jesus speaks of divorce in the N.T., as does Paul in 1 Cornith. <P>"NO divorce except in a case of unrepentant adultery." (so many on this forum have a case RIGHT THERE)<P>My H choose to "keep" me ...<P>As far as "smitten by lightning" ... how many spouses that are in adultery right now are NOT being struck down by ligntning? God gives us free will to choose our path ... follow Him or follow our own desires.<P>The "smittening" comes at judgement day.

Maya,<BR>I feel your pain and am praying that Jesus will step in a let you know that He cares deeply for you. Please stop beating yourself up. Please forgive yourself. I am reading the following booklet I got from RBC Ministries <A HREF="http://www.gospelcom.net/rbc/ds/cb941/" TARGET=_blank>http://www.gospelcom.net/rbc/ds/cb941/</A> <P>------------------<BR>God Bless,<BR>Rob<P><BR><p>[This message has been edited by professorg (edited November 10, 1999).]

Ok, fair enough. <P>I don't want to denigrate anyone's religion, but I don't think God wants any of to stay in a miserable situation just because of something Jesus may or may not have said 2000 years ago.<P>One of your remarks really caught my eye. Your H "chooses to keep you"?? What are you, a possession? <P>And about the "no divorce unless unrepentant adultery", does the Bible qualify that by saying that only the betrayed can make the decision to divorce? Seems like a statement like that could be turned around to mean that either side could initiate divorce in case of adultery, if you want to get semantic about it.<P>I don't mean to sound flip or insult your religion, but it seems to me that so many of these quotations are so ambiguous that they get subjectively processed by the believer. The way I see it, you could interpret those quotations to mean almost anything.<P>

Maya,<BR>Are you on meds now?<P>Have you talked to a doctor recently?<P>You may have a spiritual problem, you certainly have relationship problems, but the underlying problem that is rendering you unable to address any of your problems could be depression.<P>You would fight more tangible illness, like cancer, head on. <P>If you want to really be there, like you said, for your girls...if you want to be in a place where you can develop spiritually and make good decisions about your future through strength rather than despair, then get to the root of your problem medically and fight as hard as you can to get to where you want to be.<P>------------------<BR>Faith, Hope, Love Remain,<BR>but the greatest of these is Love.<BR>1 Corinthians 13:13

Cristalle1,<BR>God wants us to LOVE Him. The utopia (continual happiness) that you elude to doesn't occur until Satan will have no more effect on the world. The world will be TOTALLY in tune with God and there will be no more pain, suffering, getting old, unhappiness then.<P>The key to interpreting scripture is with other scripture that supports the verse you are studying. The moment you allow your feelings and wishes enter into the picture then thew Word is taken out of context which is why there is such confusion in the world today. It basically boils down to allowing God to control your life or Satan controlling your life. One ends with peace and joy eternal, the other ends in agony and suffering eternal which is eternal separation from God. God is love.<P>------------------<BR>God Bless,<BR>Rob<P><BR><p>[This message has been edited by professorg (edited November 10, 1999).]

Hi Professorg<P>I don't refer to continual happiness -- in this life or in any other. All I was saying is that I don't think God wants us to be miserable being married, and that it's not all some preordained thing he set up for us -- to meet, marry and be miserable with someone until the day of judgement.<P>How can THAT be part of his plan? I don't want to start some long-running theological debate on the subject, but that would be a pretty sick joke if God just laid everything out for us and expected us to swallow whatever came our way. Is there no free will?

Cristalle1,<BR>No where have I found in the Bible that it says that doing His will results in comfort in this part of life. It does say that if you do His will the world will hate you and persecute you. In China Christians are persecuted by being thrown in jail and tortured. The world is of Satan the father of all lies. I have found that the closer I get to God the more I am finding that it is less pleasant when thought of in terms of worldly definitions. The definitions that you use are of the world which makes it difficult for you to see what being a believer is. <P>MONDO HUG. Forgive me if I am coming across to strong. I just am very passionate for what God stands for because of what He has done for me.<P>------------------<BR>God Bless,<BR>Rob<P><BR>

Cristelle .... the EXACT things you say are some of the reasons I'm so stinkin' screwed up right now. Things in the Bible can be intrepreted in many ways. Sometimes people interpret them to suit their own needs, sometimes they just read one part of a scripture and take it out of context, sometimes a pastor says that "this" meant "this" back then, but means "this" now. (or doesn't even apply)<P>So you can SEE my confusion. We've got various demononations quoting from the SAME Bible saying very different things ... AND I WANNA KNOW WHO'S RIGHT AND WHO'S WRONG.<BR>

Thanks for your comments, professorg. I respect that.<P>Maya, I can see why you're so confused. That's why I think you have to make up your own mind on the subject. Unfortunately, no one is going to come down and give you the final word on the issue.<P>I do however agree with the others who have pointed out that you may be depressed. Perhaps if you get help for this, i.e. counselling, the other questions and confusions will clear up.<P>

Maya,<BR>The key is not to rely on what comes out of a human beings mouth or what they type. You have to rely on the Holy Spirit to help you with the interpretation. Read the word so that God can speak to you. Study all the scripture that is centered around the topic and then you will have the complete picture. I have always been one to go an cerify what someone says rather than just blindly follow anyone. The only one I follow is God and I even check up on Him because I know He doesn't give me the entire picture the first time. It is the subsequent times that I go back to Him that He reveals a little more of the picture.<P>PRAY, STUDY. HE will give you the answers that you seek.<P>------------------<BR>God Bless,<BR>Rob<P><BR>

THAT'S WHAT I'M SAYING ROB.<P>Am I "suffering" for the cause? Am I suppose to suffer for the cause by staying in a miserable situation? And is that FAIR to my H, who deserves someone that is as crazy in love with him as he is with them? <BR>

Add to that confusion: translations from Hebrew and Aramaic to English, etc. and there is another venue for error.<P>One thing is quite clear though, if either party breaks the vows of marriage by going outside and involving another (sexual sin) that is biblical grounds for divorce. Since I went outside of my marriage, then my H has a biblical right to divorce me. <P>I also don't think being a Christian means that you should allow your spouse to continue in an affair. I'm sure God would not condone such actions.

Do you, as the betrayer, believe YOU have the right to divorce since it's adultery we're talking about? Do you get the meaning from the Bible that only the injured party has the right to divorce .... not the betrayer?<P>

I would imagine (from a biblical aspect) that the betrayed has this right, since they didn't go outside their marriage. I was reading a Christian article recently:<BR> <A HREF="http://www.christianinconnect.com/divorce.htm" TARGET=_blank>http://www.christianinconnect.com/divorce.htm</A> <P>But I truly believe that until you address those issues (depression) that anywhere you're at will be an unhappy place. I was there too (during the affair) and sought help, and am much better now. I think that's the first step, getting yourself well.

Haven't been here for a while, but thought I'd pop in and whooooaaa, did I run into a doozy of a thread!!! I have to ask a question, what in the world is "Biblical right?" To me it sounds like some of us are forgetting (or maybe missing the point) that, as Christians, we don't <I>worship</I> the bible....... we worship God the Father, his son our Lord Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit. Maya, we've had these conversations before. There are <I>many</I> practices in the bible that we don't live our daily lives according to. The way many of us eat, the way we dress, the way we make money, etc, etc, could all be looked at as not adhering to the biblical standards. <P>So, my point is, we need to remain focused on the fact that Jesus loves us and died for our sins. Whoever believes in this and accepts Jesus Christ as his/her personal saviour will receive everlasting life in his kingdom of heaven. Period. Maya and others, <B>that's</B> what it takes to get to heaven. Will we make mistakes along the way? Absolutely! Will we sin along the way? Absolutely! Will we do things that we feel go against <I>biblical standards</I>? Absolutely! Does this mean we will not go to heaven? <B>NO!</B> Because God already knows we will do these things and make these mistakes. He already knows that we are sinners by nature and none of us can be perfect. All we can do is try to do as Jesus. We will always fall short of this, but we still keep trying.<P>Maya, if you divorce your H you will not go to hell. You need to keep repeating that to yourself. Over and over. And then maybe you can focus on staying with him because you want to be there, rather than because you are <I>in bondage</I>. In observation, I think this is a big part of the problem. You feel chained, imprisoned. How can anyone be happy when they feel that way.<P>Girl, you've really got to change your thinking. It's eating you up alive.

Maya,<BR>I know you are looking for a loophole to get out. Fair enough if you were emotionally in a place to make that decision.<P>You know what concerns me? Your statement that you feel that your daughters are clinging to you and that it is sufficating and you wish they would go to your H.<P>Did you always feel this way?<P>None of us knows the real dynamics of your relationship with your H, but your feelings of helplessness with your daughters really makes me think you are big time depressed, and at least at this point in time, needs to be addressed.<P>Maybe you wouldn't have to deal with as much if you were out on your own and that's why you crave it so much, but if depression is the root of your despair, then just getting out is not the answer.<P>Put aside long term decisions and fight your present emotional condition as hard as you would a lump in your breast.<P>------------------<BR>Faith, Hope, Love Remain,<BR>but the greatest of these is Love.<BR>1 Corinthians 13:13

Wowza! Did I start a thread or what?<P>Maya, I want to say that I really respect you in this situation. I can almost hear the frustration in your posts, but you're still here (and in the marriage). Good. Discussing this will help you get through it. It would be far too easy to fold your arms and walk away with a big, "oh, poo on you, I'm outa here."<P>Hang on girl! (no disrespect intended)<P>------------------<BR>Prayers & God Bless!<BR>Chris<BR>For relationship info check out <A HREF="http://www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html" TARGET=_blank>www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html</A>

FHL, the girls .... what I meant is that they are with ME lots more than with their dad. He works alot of hours, etc. so when he's home I would THINK they'd like to spend time with HIM ... but they gravitate to me. Female? Possibly. I think I listen better to them, and I think they hesitate to talk to H because of the disertation he tends to go into when discussing stuff.<P>This is probably the BIGGEST reason I don't communicate with him. I throw something out there for discussion and 30 minutes later he closes his paragraph. He's a rambler ... and he's opinionated so the girls probably don't want a lecture on how they're feeling.<P>The female psyche still baffles him I think (most men in fact). He doesn't understand crying for no reason ... and therefore isn't the most patient in the world when it comes to that stuff. It's one of the problems we had ... he's better with me, but not better with the girls. I see him doing the same things to them ... and it will shut them off from him.<P>I'm the logical parent to go to.<P>Someone mentioned I might be manic ... yup, I do believe that. I have wild mood swings ... way up one day .... back in the pits the next day.<P>I've <gulp> rescheduled the counselors appt. It's not till Dec. 15 but they are going to call if they get cancelations ... please pray that I keep this one. I'm so very tired of the struggle. I know I need help ... I don't know what's keeping me from DOING something about it.

New Woman ... how'd ya know I was back here? LOL<P>Thanks for chiming in. Yes, it's the same ol' thing dogging me ... you make so much sense ... why can't I grasp it?<P>Why can't I rest in His Grace. I understand it, but cannot accept such a wonderful FREE gift, ya know? I just hate myself so much that I can't accept such an amazing act of love .... just like H's love I guess.

Hi Maya,<P>It's me who called you "manic". I think it's excellent that you start going to a counselor, but I wouldn't wait for Dec 15. I would find someone who can take you by next Friday. Or beg your current one to move you up in the schedule. <P>And talk to your medical doctor about your current antidepressant regimin---it may need to be switched.

Maya,<P>Here is an extremely good book on "how to communicate." If you both follow it, he won't be giving you "dissertations". Also, it has other stuff in it along the MB path. I found it extremely enlightening (can't say it has been too useful yet )<BR><B>We Can Work It Out : How to Solve Conflicts, Save Your Marriage, and Strengthen Your Love for Each</B> Other <A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0399521372/o/qid%3D932279191/sr%3D8-1/002-3013706-7985036" TARGET=_blank>http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0399521372/o/qid%3D932279191/sr%3D8-1/002-3013706-7985036</A> <P>------------------<BR>Prayers & God Bless!<BR>Chris<BR>For relationship info check out <A HREF="http://www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html" TARGET=_blank>www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html</A>

Won't the counselor be pleased when I march in there with my self-diagonsis? LOL<BR>I'm sure they just LOVE that!<P>Thank you all so much for your care about my situation. It baffles me how you can CARE so much for someone you don't know at all ... well, that's not true ... you all probably know me better than my friends because I've unloaded on you all big time ... and with those I am in direct contact with I've completely shut out.<P>But thanks for the caring and the shaking (Whodat) and the stinking (Whodat). I know you guys are right. I know I need help. I know it I know it I know it. I just gotta get to the dang counselor's office. <P>Who's gonna take me there? Show of hands please.<p>[This message has been edited by Maya (edited November 10, 1999).]

Maya, <P>Being legalistic will not get you to heaven. <BR>James 2:10<BR>"For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one [point], he is guilty of all."<P>God knows we can not follow every law that is written. That is why He sent Jesus to be our sacrificial lamb. We <B>all</B> fall short to the glory of God. To God, one sin is not worse than another, it is all wrong in His eyes. Following the law with malice in your heart is as much a sin as breaking the law itself. If your looking for a way out of your marriage to keep the law, you will eventually find one Maya. But, I don't think that is what you want.<P>God has forgiven you for this Maya. I think your husband has forgiven you. I'm not sure you have forgiven yourself. <P>I believe you are a Christian Maya. But, I don't believe you are giving the Holy Spirit that is in you free reign to do His will. I think you are trying to punish yourself and I'm not sure you can punish yourself enough for what you think you've done. This entire experience has put you into a severe depression. <P>Get help for the depression first, and then I think your marriage will start to heal. Your husband needs to understand the level of depression you are experiencing as well so that he knows what he should do and not do to help you through this.<P>SHA

Maya,<BR>I pray you will too. Forgive my naivity, but can a couselor give you the help you need for depression? Don't you need an evaluation from a medical doctor?<P>Part of the reason you are reluctant to get help is because you are depressed or manic or whatever. Knowing that, and seeking help out anyway, is what you need to do.<P>You are painting a picture of a H that is different that I would have imagined from other posts. Maybe my memory is not accurate, but it does not sound like your H really practices unconditional love at all.<P>One thing I love about my H is he believes I have every right to my own opinion and supports (in his own way) any decision I make. Of course he expects I do the same for him and that can be tough. I like the one way streets better some days.<P>The "I think...therefore it is....and if it isn't, it should be" types drive me nuts.<P>Teens need to be taught to think for themselves. Helping them make decisions congruent to their value system is great. Limiting actions by setting rules that are in their best interest is providing healty stucture. But endless sermons just do not work. No wonder they seek you out.<P>Get help, Maya...then take action.<P>------------------<BR>Faith, Hope, Love Remain,<BR>but the greatest of these is Love.<BR>1 Corinthians 13:13

Maya,<P>I'd be happy to take you to your counselors. But perhaps a more appropriate choice would be your husband. Regardless, I'm glad that you're going to consider it.<P>

Thanks, SHA.<P>How do I let the Holy Spirit have free reign in my life? HOW do I relinquish the control? (yes, I am a control freak)<BR>

My H really has done a 180 with his attitude towards me. Honest. He's lots better than he used to be. He tries hard. He's given God control of everything ... and he's at peace with the situation. He firmly believes that God will take care of it all.<P>So do I do the same? Just sit back and watch? Is that how you let the Holy Spirit reign over your life?<P>That's what kept me from a counselor for sooooo long. I rationalized that God can take care of this, I'll just sit back .... and be miserable until He does.<P>And now I'm over the edge.<P>K, thanks for the offer to take me to the doctor. Just kiddin' ... but I don't want H to take me either. I'm much happier doing stuff alone.<P>I'm guessing a counselor has the power to prescribe anti-deps also. The first two last fall wanted to medicate me and I refused. I went to my med. dr. and he gave me the Celexa sugar pills that are doing nothing. I was just gonna tell the counselor and she could up the doseage or change the brand if she wanted to.<BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> But thanks for the caring and the shaking (Whodat) and the stinking (Whodat).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>That would be <B>stinging</B> Maya, although I imagine there are some who would agree with your first analysis... <P>I’m glad you’re at least talking now. Glad I backed off yesterday after you got on a roll. I think you just needed a nudge to get started. <P>Ya gots amazing potential, Maya... everyone here can see it but you. I’m with K... move up the appointment, or you’ll have too much time to think up reasons NOT to go.<BR><P>------------------<BR>Resentment is like taking poison and waiting for the other person to die

Maya, <P>I have a couple of suggestions for you.<P>1.) Get a book called "Raising Lambs Among Wolves" by Mark Bubeck. Chapter 10 identifies the Seven Steps to Spiritual Freedom. This is the first step in giving the Holy Spirit free reign. The book priamrily covers how to guard our children from the powers of evil, but that can't be done when there are marriage problems. So, marriage is also a major theme in the book. <P>2.) You and your husband should be praying together, not spearately, for marriage healing. It looks like your husband has peace. You certainly don't have peace and your marriage doesn't have peace. When a husband and wife are on their knees together praying for their marraige to heal, God will intervene. That book will also give you assistance in how to pray for your marriage.<P>God Bless you Maya. For those who seek His righteousness, He <B>will</B> make Himself known.<P>SHA

Frankly I think our dear Maya is important enough to go to a Dr. for a full physical and evaluation.<P>Just some counselor giving her something may not be the right approach in this particular situation. We want the best for her.<P>It is good your H has made changes, that shows flexibility. <P>I am not going to minister to you spirtually because I am not as good at it as many are here and I think for you to take ownership of any idea, you need to take it evaluate it in your own situation and want to own it. You feel trapped enough.<P>I will say one thing, though. Besides the Depression that is so #1 that everything pales in comparison, I think the root of your dilema is this.<P>For whatever the reason (and I think depression may be a BIG part) you want out. However, wanting out of your marriage is inconsistant with your value system.<P>So in order to leave, you either need to change or ignore your value system. In your case, Maya, I think this is unlikely. Your beliefs are strong and based on your basic values. Living contrary to your basic values will not bring you happiness or peace. You seek relief from your pain, but you need to seek relief that is keeping with whatever you personally believe. <P>So you know what you want, but you don't want to want it, yet you want it anyway....and it is frying your brain, basically. It would mine. Of course you can say this is a spiritual problem, it is in part, but I don't think just standing by and giving it up to God is all you need to do. That's where getting help and actively participating in your life comes in. God will bless your efforts.<P>So there are no easy answers, but I would bet just lifting the clouds of depression would help.<P>It may be it is not the actual marriage or your H that is the root of the problem, but how your marriage makes you feel. If you feel repressed, that is something both you and your H can work on, even in the context your personal religious beliefs dictate.<P>Just please please get the tools you need to do the job! <P>I have a great deal of admiration for your fortitude!!<P>------------------<BR>Faith, Hope, Love Remain,<BR>but the greatest of these is Love.<BR>1 Corinthians 13:13

Maya:<P>I can't offer any more advice that anyone else here hasn't already given you. Add me to the list of people who agree with K and Whodat that you get to counselor ASAP.<P>I can't speak for the others here, but I can tell you that <I><B>I</I></B> care about your health and well-being (mental & physical). I think getting help with the depression is of paramount importance. I hate to see you so down. <P>Also, being the legally trained mind that I am, I couldn't help but ask you to clarify something for me. I will agree that God hates divorce. I will agree that divorce (except for the unrepentant adultery) is probably a sin. Hypothetically speaking, if you were to divorce your H, then you would be committing a sin, correct? If so, wouldn't God forgive you of that sin if you were truly repentant for committing it? It's kind of like the affair in a way, isn't it? You knew it was wrong, but you did it anyway. God has forgiven you because you are truly sorry for having done it. By analogy, if you get this divorce, and later come to truly regret having committed that sin, won't God forgive you for it?<P>Or, are you concerned that if you get the divorce and are happy with it, that you won't be repentant,and therefore will not have God's forgiveness? (that just occurred to me).<P>I don't ask this to be a thorn in your side, I am trying to understand your view on the issue of divine forgiveness for sins. I find this to be a truly fascinating thread. If any other Christians want to address this, please feel free to do so.<P>Hang in there, Maya! I really hope things improve for you, however you decide to resolve your issues.<P>------------------<BR>/// Lone Star * ///<P><BR>

Yes, Lonestar, God will forgive any sin we ask for forgiveness for ... if we repent and turn from the sin.<P>However, in this case, I KNOW that divorce is a sin, and if I go ahead with that act, saying "Well, God will forgive me down the road." m cheapen the cross and what Jesus paid for this sin. You just can't go around sinning because you KNOW you'll get forgiven.<P>BUT, the affair was kinda the same thing I guess. <P>Sheesh. I'm confused.<p>[This message has been edited by Maya (edited November 10, 1999).]

Maya,<BR>Doing God's will sometimes involves pain on the doer of His will. When you find a believer who is disobeying God's will you are supposed to confront them in Christian love much like you correct a child who has broken the rules. If this confrontation or whatever the numberof suggested times is does not correct the problem, you are to take it to the church. After that, I don't remember what the Bible says you are to do. If I can find it, I will let you know.<P>Jesus was certainly not happy about what He went through when viewed from a worldly perspective. He looked at it from what the final answer is as opposed to the immediate answer. As a Christian, we are supposed to make decisions with the eternal in mind. Sometimes that means suffering a little pain now. The analogy I would like to use is spending money on something that will give you immediate gratification but will hurt you in the long run. What is more important. The immediate gratification or the long term pain associated with that immediate gratification.<P>These are the tough choices that we must all make. More often than not we take the immediate gratification and worry about the long term pain later until we get to the long term pain and say I wish I had not done that back then. We also choose that path because we chose not to listen to what the long term ramifications associated with our decision. I know that this is not helping make your decision any easier but it is important to know as much as possible before you make a decision. I personally like to be well informed so that I am willing to accept the consequences of my decision.<BR> <BR>I agree with your staying but I don't agree why you are staying. Stay because you love God rather than because you fear what He will do to you if you don't stay. I say all of this because He loves you. I don't like you being in the pain that you are. It took me a while to fully understand what I have written but once I did it became very clear.<P>MONDO HUG!!!!!!!!!<P>------------------<BR>God Bless,<BR>Rob<P><BR>

Rob, I know EXACTLY the passages you're referring to .... MORE COMMONLY KNOWN AS CHURCH DISCIPLINE.<P>I have a whole different set of issues on that one. I was threatened with that last fall, and they took the OM off the church rolls because he didn't do that THEY thought he should do. (I, of course, did and ended up being the princess -- and the one in total agony now)<P>

Maya,<BR>I agree with SHA. You must forgive yourself. I also agree that this is causing you to be in depression. We ALL LOVE you here and want nothing but the best for you.<P>I am continuing to pray for you. It is hard but He will take it all away. Just let Him. <P>------------------<BR>God Bless,<BR>Rob<P><BR>

Maya,<P>Hi there lady! <P>Good advise from all. Lots of responses and many pages to this topic. See you much you are loved and cared for? You are very important to us all here and more importantly to your family.<P>I didn't see that anyone suggested here yet, and I am suggesting because you feel it is a long term spiritual problem...<BR><B>How about changing churches as well?</B> Yes I know husband wants you to attend the church with him. Tell him honestly that you don't feel your getting all you need at this time from this church. Find a church where you feel at home.<P>Also as I wrote before and everyone has pretty much written here. Take care of seeing someone for the depression. Try the Saint Johns Wort or better yet get into the family Dr. meanwhile. Come on lady. Living like this is existing not living. The Lord meant for you to have life abundant. It's time for some living abundantly! <P>I was hoping you'd respond to my last e-mail. Now I see why you haven't. You have been very busy here responding. <P>Have the greatest day and night you can! <P>Also remember Heaven is not an earned gift. You can't earn a gift. It is given out of love for us. If we had to earn it none of us would get there. <P>Will be lighting another candle for you in prayer. <P>------------------<BR>God bless you and all of us.<P>Samantha<BR>

Thanks, Samantha!<P>Yes, I've been a little ... er ... um ... busy. And I've been trying to squeeze in some actual WORK ... LOL<P>Thanks for all the encouragement .... I'm so grateful to everyone that's prodding me in the right direction. I'm sorry I'm such a stubborn ol' mule sometimes (like ALL the time).<P>Thanks for the patience!

Maya,<BR> I just had to get in on the longest thread here yet!After reading all these posts on divorce without biblical cause being a sin,just made me realize that there's a lot of sinners out there.People seem to get divorced at the drop of a hat anymore,especially in this country.Jerry Seinfeld is marrying a woman who divorced her H of 3 weeks,probably because Jerry has more money.Now there's grounds for divorce!So while you're lamenting on doing the right thing,millions in this country are divorcing as if it were no different than changing a pair of shoes.Which means I have more respect for you than I do for a lot of people.I don't have any answers for you,as pertaining to the Bible.But maybe you should get a good checkup,and try some anti-depressants,or other meds,before making any rash decisions.A long vacation,lying on a nice,warm beach with a pina colada,couldn't hurt either!Take care. <BR>--Murph

Maya -- Hi remember me? I am glad to see you talking (typing again). I can not even begin to think of how I could add to the loving advice you have gotten to this point, so I will simply say that you are loved here, and that I am praying for you.<P>God Bless