Read your post again. You're admitting that you feel terrible about the very thing we're saying your mom feels terrible about!

You're in a bad spot, cyndy. You need to talk to your mom. I would suggest you do so in person. Not on a website. I'm not running you off or sending you away - I think you and your mom need to spend some Mom/Cyndi face-to-face time together.

Cyndyk,

My DIL was in the same position as you. Her father divorced his wife and married his affair partner. Sadly, she was still young enough that she had to live in their home part of the time.

After several years, she made the choice to place healthy boundaries in her life. She told her father how much his adultery/divorce hurt her and that she could no longer have a relationship with OW. She told him that she loved him and wanted him in her life. He told her they were a packaged deal and then proceeded to cut my dear DIL out of his life. After a few months, as her wedding to my son approached, he did make contact with DIL. They now go out to lunch and such to keep in touch. It is her way of enforcing healthy boundaries in her relationship with him and living out her belief that adultery is wrong.

I am so proud of DIL. It took a lot of courage to first, examine how her thinking had been foggy/confused/twisted by those she trusted; and second, to state her new boundary and then enforce it. She knew she was risking her own father not walking her down the isle at her wedding, yet she still made the choice to stand for what is right. THAT is integrity. THAT is supporting her mother while still having a relationship with her father.

I think the consensus here is that you blew it with your father's wedding. I'm sure you get that impression by now. LOL! But you have many future choices to make. I challenge you to re-examine your own thinking about what you believe and how you lived that out.

Affairs do destroy you from the inside out. Have you ever cried so much you that your heart hurt (literally) and that you thought your heart may give out. Or that your throat becomes so raw from all the crying that you can barely speak. How about having nightmares for weeks and somedays managing only 2-3 hours of sleep. How about having headaches so bad that your hands shake and you can barely function in life. The pain is very real and no matter what you do you cannot make it go away. You start to think dark thoughts because you don't feel strong enough to move forward or because you feel so alone. And you scream to yourself "why doesn't anybody understand?"

And I'm going to tell you...people here at MB understand because they've lived it. And until you have your spouse cheat on you, you will NEVER understand the excruciating pain that exists, you can only approximate what you think your mother has endured.

So, back to what your conscious tells you. You know adultery is wrong, you've seen how it's affected your family. So why not speak your conscious. Speak the TRUTH. Tell your Dad, "Dad, I think what you did to Mom was pretty crappy (and then some - see above). I don't even like your new wife. I can't believe you destroyed our family and the wonderful woman Mom used to be. I'm not going to condone your actions!"

The fact that you won't say what you're probably thinking makes you a coward. And guess what, when you fail to speak the truth, that also makes it a lie by omission. Your behavior indicates that you condone the actions of your father. Because there is a huge difference between your actions (supporting the affairage of Dad and OW) and what you believe.

So how do you think your mother feels? She probably feels that deep down inside of you that you probably agree with her. But the fact that you won't speak what you believe to be your personal truth comes across as a lack of support.
Mulan: "Hell, If I can't rely on my own flesh and blood to support me, then who or what else can I rely on in life."
Don't you find it odd that more strangers have shown more support for your mother than her own kids. That speaks volumes. What are you going to do to change that?

cyndyk,

Not sure if you realize it, but most honest faithful to their vows spouses view their marriage as a living breathing entity, your father killed that by having an affair with multiple women at his job.

He murdered his own marriage when he did this. Left the dead body with Mulan.

My point is in this is that you keep stating that it was 10 yrs ago and all should be forgotten.

Now would you tell your best friend who has lost her child that it's been 10 years she should be over it, she still has to more or one of the way.

Would you tell that same friend that the rape happened 10 yrs ago she should be ok now.

Their is no time limit on grief and for you to disregard Mulan's pain in post after post stating that she should see your side of it is kind of selfish.

Those words come from the position of neutrality that it seems you wish to maintain.

What has your father told you to explain his workplace-based affairs that took place over longer than 10 years? What does he say that makes you able to see his perspective?

And about that 10 years issue: you write as if an affair happened 10 years ago and your mother has focused on this event ever since. Yet it seems that there was no one, single affair. It is true that your mother began writing on this forum just over 10 years ago when she began to sit up and protest about what she had been putting up with, but the affairs - emotional affairs, dating other women right in front of her face, and probably physical affairs, with colleagues - continued right up until the day in early 2008 that your father petitioned for divorce.

This isn't something that happened 10 years ago; it is something that happened continually for something like 25 years of their marriage - and then was topped off with a swift re-marriage, which she only found out about very recently.

So when you say

you are dismissing and diminishing the extent of what she really has been through. You know that this was not a one-off event from 10 years ago, but you paint it as such. Why do you do that?

Thank you for this post. I do feel sick with how she feels I do. I have had many sleepness nights worrying for her and her future. I didn't handle things the way you all feel I should have, but I always tried to have her best intrest at heart.

She can grieve however long she wants.That is not my decision. I just honestly feel like she is "stuck" and that is frustrating. It is frustrating as a daughter and her friend. I guess I honestly feel tired re-hashing the same old stuff for over 10 years. I admit it -- I'm tired of hearing about it. I feel like I got it the first time a long time ago. I feel her pain and just want her to be in a healthy, emotional place. She does deserve that.

Maybe I didn't handle things the way you all wanted me to. But I still stand by my decision that it isn't anyone's place to tell me, the "child" in the sitation, who to pick, whatever their sitation.

I feel like all the anger in this thread is directed toward me. Fine -- I should have told her. But I have very real reasons for not doing so (outside of her telling me not to).

At one point do you start finding healthier ways to move past the anger? How long is she going to be "stuck"? Our lives are quickly passing by, esp the grandchildren. They don't know her, really.And it makes me sad.

I just feel like based on her not wanting her to tell us anything. I also felt like I was living a "lie" -- which according to you all, I guess I was. I couldn't tell her if I were visiting him, talking to him, etc. I just had to let her comments of "he blew you all off and no one has a relationship with us anymore" to rest.

I will not agree with your point-of-view that I cannot or should not have a relationship with him. For my brother, esp. The guy isn't perfect. I'm not perfect and neither is my mother. We all have made mistakes (some bigger than others) that have contributed to the demise of this family.

Truly, I dont think I know the full extent of what happened in that house. I have Mulan's version and his. I also have my brothers and from his point-of-view, it is a damed miracle he didn't move away from both of them.

He is honestly the true victim of this whole damn thing.

Anyway, I am sorry that my attempts to make you re-think your responses to your mother's grief have been perceived as attacking you. It was never my intention to attack you and so I will stop posting now.

I want to see Mulan get over/round/through this horror in her life and I hope she takes immediate steps to distance herself further from it so that her recovery can begin. I hope also that she, you and your brother can have good relationships with each other.

I just don't appreciate being called a liar. I'm not a liar. I also don't appreciate people telling me that I will likely continue the "cycle of lying" and my husband better read those books because he will "need them".

From that situation, I was really mad when she sent me those books and I opened them publically. Imagine how my husband feels? IF she wanted to give them to me in private, I understand. It was just embarrassing and inappropriate. And it made my husband feel like crap.

Cyndy, like SMB, I sympathize with you terribly. I know how painful it must be to see your mother stuck. I have personally grown impatient with her over the years and regret my lack of compassion for her.

I would like to address the above statement. No person is perfect, as you say. But not everyone is corrupt so there is no moral equivalence between your mother and father. We can't dismiss adultery and abandonment of one's spouse as "no one's perfect." That is to define deviancy down by minimizing a crime. Your mother, on the other hand, did not commit a crime against your father.

My own father was similarly corrupt so I understand the tapdancing it takes to defend the indefensible. I finally realized one day that if there is really nothing wrong with my father then I shouldn't have to be doing all this tap dancing to justify him. I stopped doing it and just admitted he was corrupt and greatly minimized my dealings with him. I have no desire to have a corrupt individual in my life and have always been at great peace with that decision. I refuse to force myself to hold my stomach around someone who makes me sick.


There is not a "version" of the truth because truth is not based on a perspective; it is based on reality. There is one truth. And you have enough facts to arrive at the truth. The truth [not a "version"] is that your dad committed adultery and would not change his life in a way that made it possible to recover the marriage. He then left your mother and got married 4 short months after the divorce.

Your mother is the victim here. And yes, so are you and your brother. But there is no "version" of truth. You know the truth.

Minimizing this to a "he said, she said" is a denial of the reality of the situation. You don't need anyone's "version" to know truth; you have the facts. While I realize your mother was not perfect, she did not commit adultery against your father. Your father did that to your mother.

Actually, look at as a gift of love. Those books are a great gift for anyone. Your mother never wants you to have to experience her pain. Her giving you those books is a step to ensuring that you never have to experience the devastation that she has endured. Look from her perspective rather than just you own and your insight will pay huge dividends. Adultery is a nasty subject nobody wants to talk about. But the more we talk and understand the more chance we have to stop the devastation of families that results when someone commits adultery.

And Cyndy, I would really think about SC's words here. Moral neutrality is not a virtue, it is a serious liability. It is a sign of moral cowardice at best and a lack of conscience at worst. Anytime in my life that I have been a moral coward by playing the moral neutrality game, I have lived to regret it. It is a cold cruel game that we always apply to others and NEVER to ourselves. When it is our own ox getting gored, we tend to be moral absolutes, so I would be really careful about playing that game with your mother. If I were your mother, I would rightly resent it. And it does not help your father in the least.

I'm not saying she is corrupt. He wasn't perfect. He "started it" and that is terrible. I feel for her paint there, I do. But I'm saying that I've grown frustrated with the response over the years, after it all ended.

However, re: the version of the truth. You DO come to the truth by listening to both sides. Then, you make your own conclusion. I don't know - I don't want to go into my thoughts on the whole situation (cheating,affairs, et) because I've never said those to Mulan personally and I don't want to bring that out here when she isn't in front of me. Apparently, again, that makes me cowardly, but I just don't want to go there.

I'm just frustrated because the level of anger has not diminished at all in the 8 years since I found out. By then, it all had been going on for several years prior to that.

I guess, to me, is when do you stop letting some apparent a-hole consume your life. You may still love him and that is fine, but letting it consume your life is frustrating to me. Esp since I feel like it really prevents her from being the person she wants to be.

Hi Cyndy,

Welcome to MB!

We are a pretty friendly forum as you can tell.....

I'm sorry you've been slammed by so many posters. I disagree with many of the comments that have been directed toward you.

I watched my mom stay in an adulterous marriage way beyond the length of time Dr. Harley recommends. Years actually, just like your mom. Staying in that trauma for years had a devastating result on her mental health, just as it did for your own mom. My mom has been suicidal over the past 5 years and has been admitted to the hospital for this condition also. So, yes, I know where you are coming from when you beg your mom to get the mental help she needs for dealing with her Post-Tramatic Stress Disorder (PTSD). My moms anxiety prevents her from going to the grocery and even prevents her from seeing her own grandchildrens recitals too. (just again last week) I still find myself grieving and praying that God would allow me to have a normal mother/son relationship, rather than me having to parent my mother all the time.

I know my mom struggles greatly from her PTSD, but that doesn't mean I don't want and need a mom.... I hear that in your posts too.

I was not a part of the adultery that occured in my mom's marriage, but I have suffered, just as all children of divorce, many far reaching consequences.
These consequences, I'm sure, will reach to the end of my days.
I've said many times that divorce and/or adultery are the gifts that never stop giving.

The last thought I have;

It sounds to me like you respected you mothers wishes by not discussing anything about your father with her. I'm sure that was a difficult decision on your part. I just wish your mother would vouch for your charachter, because I know from the back story that you have been there for her through thick and thin.

Hang in there kiddo.

This is not a time for me to anything other than neutral. I'm sorry. I will totally disagree with you there. I'm no moral coward. Give me a freaking break.

I don't agree with XH initial actions that got us all here and I don't agree with some of Mulan's actions now. I don't.

Saying that "moral neutrality" is actually immoral is really ridiculous. Again, why should I have to choose? He is my brother's only father and really, outside of my mother, he has no famiily. If he wants to reconcile with XH and they can find a way to move forward, that is between my brother and them.

I actually find it to be incredibly moral to be able to have some sort of normal relationship with either one despite the circumstances.

This is not my place. Even if my husband totally cheated on me, i would never in a million years expect my daughters to cut off their relationship with him. He is still their father and that relationship is totally separate from the one he has with me. I would never put my kids in that type of spot. That is so disgusting and it causes deep emotional problems with the children feeling uncomfortable around everyone and not being able to please anyone. Read any divorce book and this is rule number one.

Thank you. I really appreciate your post. What you wrote is really how I feel.

My point is that you don't come to the truth by listening to perspectives, but by looking at the facts. What if both perspectives are false? Then your conclusion is wrong. In your situation, you know the facts of the matter so there is no reason to rely upon the perspectives of your parents.


I understand you are frustrated and know it is painful to see her like this. I listened to my own mother's pain for longer than you have and it was painful to see her so hurt. But denying the cause of her pain did not help her overcome it. And when I grew up, I realized how I had compounded her pain by dismissing it. I regret doing that to her. I could not go back and change my inappropriate dismissal but I could tell her I was so very sorry for my callousness. I feel badly today that I added to her pain. Like you, I relied on "perspectives" and it was much easier to dismiss the whole sordid saga as a he-said, she-said. It made it easier for me. It made it horrible for my mother.

I do not feel badly that I distanced myself from my father, who remained corrupt until the day he died.

Yes, it is immoral. Moral neutrality is the abandonment of principles for the purpose of expediancy. And believe me, I understand the tempatation to pretend that nothing is wrong. But you have not applied that same moral neutrality to your mother. You don't overlook her behavior at all while you overlook - and minimize your father's adultery and abandonment.


I don't see how. As a person who also had a corrupt father, I found I couldn't be around him without abandoning my own principles. I see nothing moral about hanging out with someone who is corrupt just because they are a relative. Does that really make sense?


Did you know that most daughters do cut off their relationships with their fathers when they commit adultery and abandon the marriage? Same thing with sons. We see it all the time here. It is because it is so morally offensive. Your dad's behavior was just as much an assault on your family as it was on your mother. It wasn't just your mother that your dad betrayed. He betrayed you and your brother too.

Dr Harley, the founder of Marriage Builders, has been in this business for 40 years and he will tell you that affairs normally ruin the relationship between the cheater and his children for life. [unless the cheater repents] That is the rule, not the exception.

Check out these radio clips from the radio show, this issue comes up quite often:

Dr Harley: "its one of the most common consequences of adultery" [the children will not speak the adulterous parent again.] "It doesn't take a genius to know that adultery is wrong. The reason the kids won't talk to the dad is because he tries to justify the affair."

radio show where children won't speak to wayward father, go to 6:00 in http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=3570

Man talks to Dr Harley about how his affair wrecked his relationship with his children: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=2233

I'm not condoning his behavior. We've hashed that out. I always supported my mother until recently. When she sent me long emails, blasting my character I had to put a stop to that. I understand why she was upset. The wedding is a heartbreaker. But I felt that I was doing what she wanted me to do. She is crushed. I get that.

But the verbal assalts will not be tolerated.

Do you want me to leave him? I don't want to leave either person. If I want to have a relationship with him, it is my choice. Though, to be honest, I don't even see or talk to him that much at all.

I just wish people would understand that its my choice who to have a relationship, not anyone else. I have supported Mulan for a long time.I understand why she is angry re> the marriage.

I was angry at XH for a long time. But about five years ago, we managed to reconcile. I never condoned anyone's behavior. But,what do you want me to do, become one of Harley's statistics?

I understand how she can see my relationship with him as hurtful or demoralizing. I do get that. That is why for a long time I never said anything. Not once. I just always thought it would be ok and what she wanted for us to have a relationship with him. I just stand by the notion that I will not choose between the two. I wont.

I choose both. I think I've been pretty clear.

Hi Cyndy

It saddens me to read the grief and frustration in your and your mother's posts. I can only imagine what it feels like for the both of you. You said:


Do you consider your father an a-hole?


Very much agree.

Welcome to MB

Be pretty clear that your mother mey have to cull you from her life for her mental health.

Mulan, you okay?