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Originally Posted by looking_for_help
Once I send her the email, should I give her the book SAA to read through? I guess if she decides to want to work on it.

No. Get her committment first. And if she agrees, you might want to look into counseling with the Harley's or dong the online program.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Also,you can't tell her what to do. But you can decide what you will or won't live with. Telling her that you won't tolerate her abuse is not telling what to do. Your wife is a bully and you don't have to live like that.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Originally Posted by looking_for_help
Mel, I think you misunderstood me about the neglect issue. SHE is making it out that the neglect that I placed on her over the past couple years is the main issue. That's all she talks about when she starts talking about what our problems are.

I think Melody Lane understood just fine.

First of all, Marriage Builders addresses neglect.

(In fact, let me share a secret: Marriage Builders is a program to teach clueless husbands how to not neglect their wives.)

But what Melody Lane is pointing out is that your WW's remarks about neglect are the fogbabble of a fogged out addicted wayward. It is just an excuse. She is the one neglecting you, not the other way around.

Neglect, whichever direction it exists, will be addressed by the Marriage Builders program. You can mention as a selling point that Marriage Builders will build a marriage free from neglect.


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 17 years, who is a beautiful angel.
Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010

If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
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Do you not yet understand that the only time a WW lies is when she speaks at all?

Of COURSE she'll blame it on you. If not your "neglect", then your "suffocating", or your "lack of ambition", or your "over-dedication to your job" will be what she touts as the "reason". The only "reason" is that her needs for EN satisfaction were not clear enough for her to address with you, and her boundaries around other men were faulty. It's all HER FAULT!

But WWs cannot admit that kind of thing. They must (because modern society has taught them) be RIGHT! From day one, in every form of media and educational initiative, the man is at fault. So, she just follows society's lead.

It is without doubt a huge contributor to the explosion in female infidelity. "Have an itch? If your hubby can't scratch it, do whatever has to be done to get it taken care of! It's hubby's fault, anyway."

And you know who is more damaged by that propaganda than the female targets? Males like YOU! You're sitting there having had something stolen from you, and you're bemoaning the fact that you only had two locks on the door.

I better go before I get "zapped" for abusing another poster...

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NG,

I took no offense to your post...just so the "zappers" know.

She actually has blamed me for working too much even though I really didn't. I left the house when she did. I just got to work 30 minutes earlier than normal time. I was/am competing for a promotion, but have NEVER neglected my family for it. It's not worth that.

She also brought up the point the other night that I "did something that I told her I would never do"...take my wedding ring off. I did take it off a couple times when I knew she was coming over just to get a reaction. She is just looking for things to place blame on me for.

Last edited by looking_for_help; 05/10/12 01:49 PM.
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LFH, what your doing right now is planting seeds. Are you going to reap that harvest as soon as you plant them?... NO! You are actually going to get the opposite effect from your WW than what you are wanting to get... her anger and blame.

But NOW is not the time of harvest. Those seeds will grow in the back of her mind of what kind of man LFH is. He is strong, has morals and values that will not be comprimised, watches out for me (WW), does not have AO and DJ and is willing to fight even me (WW) to save our marriage. THATS what I (WW) NEED!

Pay no mind to her accusations and fogbabble and don't try to figure out the real reason begind what she says. The real reason is simple...She is selfish and does not care (at the moment) how you or anyone else feels. She wants to feel justified and will say or do anything to help herself feel that way.

Now go plant as many good seeds as you can. Its hard work but harvest time is coming.


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She called me tonight and apologized for the conversation last night when she was so mean and accusatory to me. She actually sounded somewhat sincere. She said she was sorry she made me so upset and angry.

Mixed signals every day.

Y'all make anything of this?

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Originally Posted by looking_for_help
She called me tonight and apologized for the conversation last night when she was so mean and accusatory to me. She actually sounded somewhat sincere. She said she was sorry she made me so upset and angry.

Mixed signals every day.

Y'all make anything of this?

Did you send that email to her like Mel suggested?

Yes that waywards act bipolar.

Also they act narcistic and many other disorders.

Waywards are aliens and make no sense at all.


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Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.



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Originally Posted by looking_for_help
She called me tonight and apologized for the conversation last night when she was so mean and accusatory to me. She actually sounded somewhat sincere. She said she was sorry she made me so upset and angry.

Mixed signals every day.

Y'all make anything of this?

LF, did you read our posts? What she says is really not interesting. It is no more significant than the mood swings of a falling down drunk. Up one day, down the next.

What about my suggestion above of sending her an email with your plans? Now would be a good time since she is feeling guilty about her last angry outburst.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Quote
SHE is making it out that the neglect that I placed on her over the past couple years is the main issue.
But that's a standard line in the Wayward Handbook, looking. Why would you put any weight on this at all? She's a wayward. If she didn't use this line on you she would use another one - any line that puts the blame on you.


D-Day 2-10-2009
Fully Recovered and Better Than Ever!
Thank you Marriage Builders!

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Originally Posted by looking_for_help
Mel, I think you misunderstood me about the neglect issue. SHE is making it out that the neglect that I placed on her over the past couple years is the main issue. That's all she talks about when she starts talking about what our problems are.
I think you're missing Mel's point. Think about it. Have you considered that SHE has neglected YOU? Because she has, my friend. If she had been rightfully treating you as her priority she would never have had time to engage in the selfish actions of an affair.


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LFH,

You seem to be in serious denial. Here's the reality: You're on the path to divorce.

Here's another real fact:

She will cheat on you again if you take her back without acceptance of Mel's conditions spelled out in her sample email.

Poor boundaries with men (or women in your case) is a recipe for future failure.

One of the most unappealing things to a woman is a man with no self respect. You have no self respect. Every time she says jump, you ask how high.

It is time to say, "No. I'm not jumping."

Stop playing her game and take control of this situation. It starts with you growing a set and acting like a man. She'll never find you appealing otherwise. "Hope" isn't going to save your marriage.

The second you accept that your marriage is dead will be the second you gain some sort of control over yourself. Taking the attitude that SHE needs to earn YOUR trust and love back will get you further than fear of standing up for yourself.

She'll balk at first with your new sense of self esteem and might even laugh at a statement such as, "Never speak to OM again and I'll consider forgiving you and taking you back. Otherwise, I'm going to go alphabetize my DVD collection." Then walk off, as if you don't give a crap about what she thinks.

Grow some self respect! AKA BALLS!

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I hear what everyone is saying. I have had no doubts that I am sending the letter/email.

I have never viewed myself as not having any self-respect or not having the strength to stand up for myself. I have never had a problem with either. I have always viewed marriage as a place where you must try everything possible to keep things going and I apparently don't do that the way I should have. I see that now.

I know y'all are right but it has been hard for me to accept that I have to become more "forceful" in marriage to make things work. I have always tried to be fair and work together to solve problem. Although I see now that working together has to go both ways and she has decided to work without me so I have to take the reigns back and guide things back where we are working together.

This has been so hard for me to understand and accept because I have had to change my entire way of thinking about marriage, relationships and myself. I guess there has been some or a lot of denial because of all the thought process and belief changes I have had to come to accept.

One of my big hang-ups with some of the things I have been guided to do is that every person and situation is different in some aspect. It has been tough for me to accept that the same principles apply to ALL situations. I guess what has happened is that I have wanted to believe her more than I have wanted to believe y'all. She's my wife and y'all have been strangers. I have known her for over 12 years and y'all less than 4 months. I am supposed to be able to believe and trust what she is telling me AND more than anything....I'm supposed to be able to deal and handle my own marital problems. I have failed miserably at both of those.

I'm not self-pitying right now. I'm just stating the truth as I see it at this point. More than anything I just want everyone to know why I have had such a hard time executing everything I have been told. I also accept that if my marriage fails it will be partly because I have not trusted y'all/MB enough to execute when told to.

I am drafting my letter to her today and will send it tomorrow after she picks up the kids. I'm choosing to send it then because if I send it today she will come over in the morning when the kids are around and blow up. I'll send it after she has the kids tomorrow and we will not HAVE to cross paths until next weekend. That will give her time to get mad, come back to reality and think about it. I know what you may be thinking...he's afraid to face her. Nope, not at all. I am to the point where I have little fear of anything left in regards to this marriage and or my friendship with her. She has pushed me to that point.

I was wondering if I might be able to post the draft of my letter for y'all to pick apart before I send it?

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Originally Posted by looking_for_help
One of my big hang-ups with some of the things I have been guided to do is that every person and situation is different in some aspect. It has been tough for me to accept that the same principles apply to ALL situations. I guess what has happened is that I have wanted to believe her more than I have wanted to believe y'all. She's my wife and y'all have been strangers. I have known her for over 12 years and y'all less than 4 months.

I completely understand your disbelief! It makes no sense to believe that strangers on the internet know your wife better than you do! But you can go back and read your threads and see that we have, in fact, known your wife better than you throughout this ordeal. That is because that woman is not your wife.

The wife you know and fell in love with is not there, is she? The woman in her place is a wayward alien. And we know wayward aliens like the back of our hands. They are ALL alike! We don't apply the same principles to all situations, but to most. We apply them where they apply. We know what usually works, so of course, we are going to tell you what we know has worked in the past. There are no guarantees, but we believe this will give you the best chance based on hundreds of other experiences.

Quote
I have always tried to be fair and work together to solve problem. Although I see now that working together has to go both ways and she has decided to work without me so I have to take the reigns back and guide things back where we are working together.

I believe you have tried to appease her throughout your marriage. You were probably raised to do this so it is deeply ingrained. Trying to appease a tyrannical bully does not help marriages; it destroys them. It enables bad behaviors and creates a false sense of entitlement. And worst of all, it erodes your wife's respect for you. When a man allows a woman to mistreat him, she develops contempt for him. When a man sets appropriate boundaries, she learns to respect him.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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And please do post your letter! We would be glad to help.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Thank you for understanding. My beliefs about how to behave and treat women/marriage are deeply rooted. I have very strong beliefs about how I am supposed to treat my wife.

But...you are right on all the points you mentioned.

1. Y'all have known her better than me
2. My real wife is not here right now
3. There are no guarantees in anything
4. Just about everything else.

I have even told myself to trust what y'all tell me because you have been right on just about every aspect of this situation. The proof is in the posts I have made and the answers that have been posted back to me.

Part of the problem as well has been that I am a very logical minded person and have had a hard time understanding the way MB thinks. The problem with that is that I should not be trying to understand it because I am actually not capable of that right now. My logical thought tell me the opposite of what I am told on here most of the time. It's very hard to not trust my own thoughts and turn the control of my marriage over to someone else. That just hasn't been easy for me to do.

I do apologize for that as well as the fact that y'all have had to basically smack me in the back of the head every day.

I will post my letter later today for review.

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Originally Posted by looking_for_help
I do apologize for that as well as the fact that y'all have had to basically smack me in the back of the head every day.

I will post my letter later today for review.

We don't mind giving the smacks as long as you come to your senses and heed the advice. laugh

Looking forward to the letter. I would use Mel's template.


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My FWW and I have both taken accountability for our shortcomings prior to her A. Both sides hold responsibility for creating the environment that lead to her looking outside of the marriage.

We all agree that there is nothing a BH would ever do that would justify her A. It is 100% on her. Period. For all the reasons accurately described in your thread.

However.

However, my FWW would not have fallen back in love with me if I had not eliminated all my LB�s and started filling her EN�s.

The danger I see here is that a BH (yourself?) may be looking at this and putting all the blame on her for everything. Again, 100% her fault that she had the affair.

Until she sees that you have changed what she believes to be the problems in your marriage from your side of the fence, she will not fall back in love with you.

Clearly she is very foggy. You know that well. My FWW was as well. What turned the tide for us is when I took full accountability for my actions and changed ME. I put up strong boundaries which actually increased her respect for me and she knew I was not going to be a doormat.

And, incorporated every aspect MB's.

My point is that yes she was totally in the wrong but we BH�s need to take full accountability for our actions as well. Ever heard the saying that �perception is reality�? Her perceptions are clearly foggy but it is her current REALITY.

Make her fall back in love with you! You did it once, you can do it again.

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Originally Posted by 20YearHistory
However.

However, my FWW would not have fallen back in love with me if I had not eliminated all my LB�s and started filling her EN�s.

20yrhistory, And I agree with everything you say there, but he is not at that place yet. His wife is still in an affair and is manufacturing grievances to distract from her affair. He is not ignoring the problems in the marriage, but is not allowing himself to be distracted. If the issue becomes her supposed "neglect" instead of how to end her affair and reconcile then they don't EVER get to the point where they can address the deficiencies in the marriage.


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20Year,

My taking responsibility AND changing my wrongs has already been accomplished and proven to her before she shut me down and left. She knows (or should) beyond a shadow of a doubt that I have acknowledged, accepted and have addressed how and why I neglected her. I also had about a week where I showed her the changes. She was not very receptive at that time but she saw that I was able and willing to do the things that she had and still is complaining about.

She knows that I have made the changes yet she is still complaining about the neglect. I have told her over and over that I can't change the past but I can make the future (hers and mine) be everything that we both want IF she chooses to do so. I have told her that many times throughout this, but she keeps telling me that she doesn't know if she can move past it because she dealt with it for so long that she has "moved on emotionally". Those are her words.

I do want everyone to know that her term "emotional neglect" was is not as bad as it sounds. The basis of it is that she did not receive as much affection as she felt that she needed. I agree that I was not as affectionate as I could have been, but those are not grounds for affairs and divorce in my opinion. Those are issues you sit down and COMMUNICATE about and try to find a resolution to.

With that said, I know that none of my talking or explaining has made any difference because she has been and still is in the fog. But I say all that to say that there is no problems with my accepting my wrongs in this and addressing them. I am more than happy to make these changes because they actually make me a happier person. Now she has to do her part.

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