I am starting this thread because this has been an area of weakness in my life. There are many reasons this has been a weak area for me from the beginning. I am not an expert or professional in this area. Still, I believe this is an important topic for those who are in the recovery phase whether a betrayed or betrayer. Mostly I want to discuss the types of bullying that goes on in relationships that is subtle but yet undermining in an initimate relationship. I appreciate how Dr Harley helps us with our lovebuster behaviours. For me, asking for and learning to get my needs met and learning to meet my husbands emotional needs all thoughtfully and without lovebusters is revolutionary. Similar to removing tired worn frumpy clothes and putting on a whole new set of up to date flattering clothes. Still, everyday I am more and more aware of the things we do to one another and even things I say to myself that tells me I/we are/am still healing and yet still need to pay attention. I figure I can present this topic here and maybe this will help myself and others stay the course.

Its difficult to be a victim of betrayal and not want to at least in some subtle way victimize the person who betrayed us and then justify it to ourselves. This is why I thought defining what that means might help us all not head down that path. There is a difference between bullying and asking for just compensation.

Physical abuse or verbally raging is the most obvious form of bullying. Mostly here as I've stated I want to throw out ways and means of bullying that are less obvious and softly kill. "It kills your spirit, your soul, your ability to love, and your will to live." I think these methods are much more common. As a victim I have felt confused, off centered, helpless, a sense I do not matter and upset like something has been taken without permission. If I have acted as bully
I get a rush of energy like a high and then guilt sets in for me. Obviously intimacy cannot thrive between a husband and wife and their off spring in this type of environment.

A physical affair or emotional affair is a form of bullying. So is with-holding affection & sex, put downs, nagging, bringing up past mistakes, controlling resources, demanding sex or sex acts, silent treatment, belittling, comparing, flirting, endless making "helful" comments, failing to prioritize relationship, threats to leave relationship, not acknowledging contribution to relationship ie parent at home w/children or a so-called less demanding job, selfish demands or repeatedly asking to do something you don't want to do and so on.

An example of a situation I am working on these days. We create our UA schedule. My husband arrives home an hour late. He even calls and very nicely says he is on his way. He does not acknowledge he is late. (No he is not having an affair) He acts like nothing is wrong. I have done my part to set up a nice evening for us in away I know he likes. When he gets home he gives me a kiss and again says nothing to me about being late. I believe he is acting as a bully towards me. I look him in the eye and tell him he is one hour late. I act rather then react in an inappropriate emotive fashion but still get the message across. Yet he still lists excuses. I say OK, but I did not know your situation and would appreciate a call. He agrees. We move on and have a nice conversation over dinner. He later initiates and reviews our upcoming schedule with me.

I'm proud of myself for not accepting his bullying and I am proud of myself for not bullying him in return with lecturing and nagging. I'm also proud of my husband for checking in with himself and moving towards me and not away.

Over the weekend my husband and I watched the documentary movie "Buck." Its about Buck Brannaman and his way with horses and people. A so-called horse whisperer. It reminded me of Dr Harleys work with us. Check it out!


"Your horse is the mirror to your soul. Sometimes you might like what you see. Sometimes you won't." Buck Brannaman

Don't you think our intimate relationships are also mirrors to our souls?

http://www.buckthefilm.com/

I don't think this is bullying. Straight up cowardice. My H does it, too. Believes if he ignores it, I'll just get over it. But I am really working hard to explain to him that when he does that, it feels like he is sweeping the issue under the rug. And we all know that's a dirty place to be.


This is far more than bullying. It is gut-wrenching betrayal.


This seems like a VERY long list of complaints/insults. Is this how your H treats you?


This is good! No Love Busting! And it sounds like you were able to work toward a solution. But I'd be concerned about the long list above.

Hope this helps,
SP

First off the list I've made is a collection of behaviors I gleaned from studying the subject. I'm noticing how difficult we all tend to have in recognizing we are being bullied because its often stealth.

To me an act of bullying = abuse=can include gut-wrenching betrayal.

No doubt bullying is a cowardice act. Its a blow when my husband does not acknowledge he has initiated something he knows would create negative feelings for me even if its an accident. To say nothing adds to the wound. He knows this is the case and to ignore this social skill is bullying. I can't just ignore it and neither can he. A blow is a blow.

I believe that's why Dr. Harley teaches us how "to care" for each other.

Eliminating all lovebusters.

DJ's, AO and SD's are definitely parallel with bullying.

Graceful:

Your use of the word "bullying" to me is worrisome, too. I've been trying to think of why it disturbs me, but am having trouble putting my finger on it.

Perhaps because it signifies malicious intent on the part of the bully, as well as a victim status to the bullied.

In reading your comments, it feels like you have deep-seated resentment ... or you wouldn't be identifying your H as a bully. How can you recover if you are abused in such a way.

Sorry if this doesn't make sense. Perhaps someone with more wisdom can jump in and advise?

SP

I am not at all damning, characterizing or labeling my husband as a bully here. My heart and my intentions are being misread. I am simply setting up a discussion.

Some behaviors within relationships if repeated over and over can be hurtful and are not easily noted for the damages they create for everyone involved. Some behaviors are not easily categorized as DJ, AO, and SD.

I have noted on this site over and over again betrayed spouses going thru the pain and heartache of horrible betrayal and seriously struggling in plan A and under tremendous stress making the situation even worse. I say this with great empathy towards both betrayed and betrayer. I want to help others thru these difficult times.

The beginning of the list l made is not to be misconstrued as a window in to my troubled soul! The truth is we have each one ended up in relationships based on what we believe about ourselves. Our radar might be low for detecting we are being treated by ourselves and others less then we deserve. We can change the messages we give ourselves and others.

SP,
I think its easy to accept bully behaviors in our everyday life as normal. Its not a matter of labeling or being identified as a bully or victim w/deliberate intentions. These are likely habits that can escalate and perhaps are the makings of what becomes AO, DJ, and SD. Calling our attention to what seems normal behaviors as being bullying is hard to do. It means I need to pay attention and take thoughtful action. I deserve better and the people I love deserve better. These are times its more important then ever to identitfy your own values and stick to them. MB program is constructed for this purpose.
~G

You are right, other things can be labeled as IB, Dishonesty, Annoying Habits.


Love Busters are defined as abuse, and defined as abusive tactics to get what we want.

We don't really have to have a grammatical change of venue from Love Busters to Bullying -- Bullying could be reverse-defined into MB terms as; a series of chronic Love Busting habits.

Your final paragraph is pretty reflective of LB$ levels and thresholds, as well.

You have my sympathies about the way you have been feeling, graceful. I have read some of your posts on the private forum and I recognise my own issues in them. I also have sympathy with what you are trying to express here.

However, I think you have mixed up a few different things here, and I am not sure that any of the behaviours you describe can really be defined as "bullying", so here are my thoughts.

The first part of your post that I underlined was picked out because Dr Harley deals with this with another term. He calls the feelings we have after an affair "resentment", and he sees them as entirely understandable. They are a logical response to a terrible outrage. However, he describes the behaviour that we something indulge in following resentment as being akin to punishing our spouse, which of course is counterproductive if marital recovery is the goal. When we bring up the affair, or try to get the WS to do what we want because they owe us and should be grateful to us, we make selfish demands.

However, there is nothing selfish about "just compensation". "Just compensation" involves creating a terrific (and affair-proof) marriage. Such a marriage is a win for both spouses, so if what the BS is seeking really is "just compensation", then the issue of bullying does not come into it.

I underlined the second section because it begins by saying that an affair is a form of bullying, but I have heard Dr Harley specifically refute this idea. A "classic" affair - by which I mean that the BS is as yet unaware of the affair - is not in and of itself bullying, because the WS is not having the affair at the BS. The WS is not doing it to hurt the BS; indeed the WS hopes that the BS never finds out. The WS is disregarding the BS's feelings, and being selfish and a lot of other things, but the WS is not "bullying" the BS.

The rest of the paragraph - withholding affection and sex etc., contains a few different kinds of acts that I don't think can be lumped in together. The BS bringing up the affair because she/he is newly hurting, or the BS admitting that she/he still thinks of leaving because of the discovery, is not in the same class as flirting, in my opinion.

Most of the things in that list would be bullying if the intent were to humiliate and belittle the WS, and if it were done despite the WS's good work on just compensation. For the BS dealing with a recently-discovered affair, or for the BS in a marriage that is limping along after the affair, they are expressions of pain; they are not bullying. They are not good for the marriage, but they are not "bullying".

Your H letting you down on date night and then saying nothing about his lateness when he gets home is not bullying, either. It is thoughtlessness, and possibly selfishness, but it is not being done "at" you. It is a disregard for your feelings, and it might be a bad habit that he has developed over the years (and therefore something that can be UN-developed) - but it is not "bullying".

"Lecturing and nagging" over his lateness would be disrespectful judgements and/or angry outbursts. As HHH says, I prefer to use Dr Harley's terminology of "lovebusters" rather than "bullying", because along with the terminology comes a definition of why each lovebuster is harmful to the marriage AND what can be done to overcome it.

The term "bullying" is a bit too all-encompassing and flattening for me. The way you have used it here covers too wide a range of behaviours, carried out under a variety of circumstances.

There are no nuances involved in the term 'bullying". Bullies beat people up relentlessly and enjoy doing so. The recent BS has a lot of emotions to cope with and I don't find it helpful to think of his/her grief as "bullying", nor to mix up the concept of "just compensation" with bullying.

Please remember that I read your posts with great sympathy for how you feel following the affair. Do you have any thoughts on what iIhave said here?

Great post S_C. 100% agree.

I did not mix up just compensation and bullying. I made an effort to differentiate them. I have a different view of bullying. I also understand and value Dr Harleys terms and principles. Again I think I am being misread. I'll let it go.

A lot of this is semantics as we define words differently. My wife has used the word abuse. Which Dr. Harley uses as some of my offenses. When I first heard that I freaked out. To me, abuse is hitting, belittling, molesting, etc etc etc. I call that Abuse with a capital A, this is the abuse that is punishable by law. Then there are the DJ, AO, and other lovebusters and it is still abuse but abuse with a lower-case a. Words mean things, and often times we may need to clarify what we mean by defining words.

I too think the 'bullying' label for a lot of those things mentioned in this thread have a harsh overtone to it. I think I understand what you mean by it, but I think there are more appropriate words that could be used to define what you mean, than 'bullying'.

Each Love Buster is a type of mental and emotional abuse.

The main reason that I LOVE MB is because when you pick up the terms, it provides a COMMON language for everyone to use in discussion - this is both on the boards and with my wife.

Not to mention, that the tone of MB terms is a lot less judgmental than how we might commonly refer to things - this helps to keep conversation pleasant.

There is no possible way to talk about someone being a "bully" and keep it either respectful, or pleasant.

I think this a good subject. I don't know if I would call it bully, but I really see this as a power struggle/control issue.


Quote;
A physical affair or emotional affair is a form of bullying. So is with-holding affection & sex, put downs, nagging, bringing up past mistakes, controlling resources, demanding sex or sex acts, silent treatment, belittling, comparing, flirting, endless making "helful" comments, failing to prioritize relationship, threats to leave relationship, not acknowledging contribution to relationship ie parent at home w/children or a so-called less demanding job, selfish demands or repeatedly asking to do something you don't want to do and so on.

Every one of the above behaviors has a direct relation to controling the partner, "putting them in their place", or simply forcing a view.

They are all disrespectful behaviors. Of course, they do not belong in a helathy relationship, but if eveyone was honest here, I think many of us would say there have been instances of these traits in their marriage.

To turn this into a better conversation, what, exactly was your question about these traits?