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#2629941 05/26/12 07:07 AM
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My WW is finally getting to the recovery stage of things. However, I was wondering if there were any good resources and or helps, books, websites etc to help my WW through her struggles of forgiving herself and wanting to repair our relationship more expeditiously? She still struggling with allowing me to show physical affection to her and SF is completely out of the question right now. IC, RC are definitely up, but I feel like we can't start progressing again until we allow ourselves to meet each others TOP needs - Affection/RC for her and SF/Admiration for me. I don't want to come across as demanding, insensitive or manipulative, but how does one go about requesting these things without love busting at such a vulnerable and sensitive time, early in recovery. My wife also is still healing from what she views as MY infractions against her over the time we've been married and is still letting those go and processing the forgiveness towards me(aka fog talk - which is diminishing more by the day - but I have wronged her, a little here and their consistently over a long period of time by being neglectful, manipulative and demanding(my own love busters), whereas she just blasted a cannon ball through me in one fell swoop with her A) that is necessary to move forward.

Is there anything out there that has helped WW heal and get past feelings for the OM. She admits she still has feelings there, but they vacillate between care and anger(he lied to her - ya think?) When she's angry she's warm and close to me, when she's caring she's cold and withdrawn towards me. I don't want her to HATE him, I don't see the point in that, however, I want her to be apathetic towards him. Who gives a flip about that POSOM(even if everyone that knows him thinks he's 'great') Does that ever happen? I don't want her to want to care about him. I want her to be worried about me and our little family, which she's is doing more and more as we progress down this path.

So any help out there specifically targeting WW who feel extreme guilt for their actions to the point where it impedes the ability of the BS to meet their needs?

Thanks

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Originally Posted by Hopeful_Hubby
My WW is finally getting to the recovery stage of things. However, I was wondering if there were any good resources and or helps, books, websites etc to help my WW through her struggles of forgiving herself and wanting to repair our relationship more expeditiously? She still struggling with allowing me to show physical affection to her and SF is completely out of the question right now. IC, RC are definitely up, but I feel like we can't start progressing again until we allow ourselves to meet each others TOP needs - Affection/RC for her and SF/Admiration for me. I don't want to come across as demanding, insensitive or manipulative, but how does one go about requesting these things without love busting at such a vulnerable and sensitive time, early in recovery. My wife also is still healing from what she views as MY infractions against her over the time we've been married and is still letting those go and processing the forgiveness towards me(aka fog talk - which is diminishing more by the day - but I have wronged her, a little here and their consistently over a long period of time by being neglectful, manipulative and demanding(my own love busters), whereas she just blasted a cannon ball through me in one fell swoop with her A) that is necessary to move forward.

Is there anything out there that has helped WW heal and get past feelings for the OM. She admits she still has feelings there, but they vacillate between care and anger(he lied to her - ya think?) When she's angry she's warm and close to me, when she's caring she's cold and withdrawn towards me. I don't want her to HATE him, I don't see the point in that, however, I want her to be apathetic towards him. Who gives a flip about that POSOM(even if everyone that knows him thinks he's 'great') Does that ever happen? I don't want her to want to care about him. I want her to be worried about me and our little family, which she's is doing more and more as we progress down this path.

So any help out there specifically targeting WW who feel extreme guilt for their actions to the point where it impedes the ability of the BS to meet their needs?

Thanks


MB is the best place to recover.

Will she come here for help?

What about calling the coaching center or the online program? You're giving a coach to walk her through it.
Online program


FWW/BW (me)
WH
2nd M for both
Blended Family with 7 kids between us
Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.



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Wait just one minute.

I remember your story, because I was about to reply to your thread and then found it gone. Your wife wants to separate from you in July, despite the fact that she says her affair is over, because she wants to sort out her feelings and see if she wants to get a divorce. You have new baby twins, and she was pregnant while she had this affair, which she says did not involve penetration.

Your wife tells you openly that she cannot bear having sex with you and does not want you anywhere near her. On you previous thread, you were trying to pursue a line of "sexual aversion", but many people here were trying to tell you that she was STILL IN HER AFFAIR and that is why she does not want to have sex with you.

Please tell us what has changed to make you say that you are "finally getting to the recovery stage of things". Is your wife still planning to leave you in July?


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HH, I remember your other thread. What has changed that has caused you to be in the Recovery forum? If I recall correctly, your WW appeared to still be in the affair. What requirements has she fulfilled that causes you to believe that she is on board with recovery? Did you give her any?

(Examples: paternity test on your children since the affair occurred at the same time she got pregnant, NC letter to OM, exposure of the affair to folks who can help keep an eye on her and OM). Has any of this happened?

A truly remorseful wayward does not want to separate to 'sort out her feelings'. redflag

I believe you should remain in the SAA forum unless something drastic has changed from your previous thread.


D-Day 2-10-2009
Fully Recovered and Better Than Ever!
Thank you Marriage Builders!

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She's actively working with me, doesn't want to separate and we're moving forward with cautious decisions about our future together. Things have progressed rapidly in every aspect except the physical touch which she feels will take time, however, she can at least start talking about it with me without completely withdrawing and breaking down. We've had some serious breakthroughs with a MC. One of the biggest breakthroughs was when she found out the OM was actively working on recovering his marriage, which the OMW confirmed to me a few days prior. Once she found that out, she knew he was lying to her(for some reason she knew he was a pathological liar to everyone else, but hadn't lied to her...;-p) She broke down and gave me everything in the form of what happened, details, passwords, she changed her passwords in front of me and gave me a heartfelt apology, I placed a keylogger on her phone and computer prior to all that and am convinced after several weeks now that there is no contact and she is actively trying to get past her feelings that she has created for him. Now she's trying to get past her 'resentment' and 'anger' that's being directed towards me from how I made her feel to the years leading up to her choices, but she's much softer and caring now. She allowed me to get rid of some things in our house that have acted as 'triggers' to both of us. It's been completely exposed and the rumor mill has been running rampant which really killed it.

Curious to know if anyone has a rough timeline of the ebbs and flows of recovery.

Is there usually a day or time where the wayward 'snaps out it' and things begin feeling normal, or is it a continual gradual progression like what I'm seeing with occasional breakthroughs and set backs?

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HH, the most impactful thing you can do for your marriage is to spend 20+ hours a week of undivided attention meeting the top 4 intimate emotional needs of conversation, affection, recreational companionship, and sexual fulfillment. Without that, this is all hopeless because is the KEY to falling in love again.

It take 20-25 hours to fall in love and 15 hours to maintain romantic love. Dr Harley even recommends going away on a 1 to 2 week vacation together to start things off.

You won't ever recover the romantic feelings in your marriage without this step. I would get the workbook Five Steps to Romantic Love and tear out the UA time worksheet and make copies. Sit down once a week and plan out your next week, writing out date, time, activities.

It is best to plan 4 - 4 hour DATES out of the home. The most quality UA time is spent out on dates where you get cleaned up and are away from the home. UA at home is not the best.

If you don't have a good babysitting source for your children, I would work on getting as many people lined up as possible. Expand your babysitting list as much as you can.

Also, most people REFUSE to do this step because in bad marriages everything comes first. Then they wonder why their marriages STAY bad.

The Policy of Undivided Attention

Five Steps to Romantic Love


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Originally Posted by Hopeful_Hubby
Things have progressed rapidly in every aspect except the physical touch which she feels will take time, however, she can at least start talking about it with me without completely withdrawing and breaking down. We've had some serious breakthroughs with a MC.

If you are counseling in a room together and airing your grievances then you are damaging any possible progress toward recovery. Most marriage counselors counsel conflicted couples together and this practice only results in enormous lovebank withdrawals. Couples in conflict tend to air grievances about the other and they leave the session more angry than when they go in. This is one of the many ways that marriage counselors are destructive to marriages.

So, if your MC is counseling you together in the same room, it could harm any progress you make.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Originally Posted by Hopeful_Hubby
Things have progressed rapidly in every aspect except the physical touch which she feels will take time, however, she can at least start talking about it with me without completely withdrawing and breaking down. We've had some serious breakthroughs with a MC.

If you are counseling in a room together and airing your grievances then you are damaging any possible progress toward recovery. Most marriage counselors counsel conflicted couples together and this practice only results in enormous lovebank withdrawals. Couples in conflict tend to air grievances about the other and they leave the session more angry than when they go in. This is one of the many ways that marriage counselors are destructive to marriages.

So, if your MC is counseling you together in the same room, it could harm any progress you make.

We've had about 8 or 9 counseling session, in which only 3 or so were done together.

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Originally Posted by MelodyLane
HH, the most impactful thing you can do for your marriage is to spend 20+ hours a week of undivided attention meeting the top 4 intimate emotional needs of conversation, affection, recreational companionship, and sexual fulfillment. Without that, this is all hopeless because is the KEY to falling in love again.

It take 20-25 hours to fall in love and 15 hours to maintain romantic love. Dr Harley even recommends going away on a 1 to 2 week vacation together to start things off.

You won't ever recover the romantic feelings in your marriage without this step. I would get the workbook Five Steps to Romantic Love and tear out the UA time worksheet and make copies. Sit down once a week and plan out your next week, writing out date, time, activities.

It is best to plan 4 - 4 hour DATES out of the home. The most quality UA time is spent out on dates where you get cleaned up and are away from the home. UA at home is not the best.

If you don't have a good babysitting source for your children, I would work on getting as many people lined up as possible. Expand your babysitting list as much as you can.

Also, most people REFUSE to do this step because in bad marriages everything comes first. Then they wonder why their marriages STAY bad.

The Policy of Undivided Attention

Five Steps to Romantic Love

I agree. She's getting to this point. I read HNHN and am currently reading Lovebusters. I talked about both books with her but never asked her to read them. She has HNHN in her possession right now without my promting. She's not on board with the 20-25 hours yet, but I think she's getting there.

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Originally Posted by Hopeful_Hubby
[
We've had about 8 or 9 counseling session, in which only 3 or so were done together.

Are you airing your grievances in front of each other?


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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Originally Posted by Hopeful_Hubby
[
I agree. She's getting to this point. I read HNHN and am currently reading Lovebusters. I talked about both books with her but never asked her to read them. She has HNHN in her possession right now without my promting. She's not on board with the 20-25 hours yet, but I think she's getting there.

HH, does she have Surviving an Affair? Dr Harley recommends they read SAA instead because it is written FOR the wayward.

Another important point is for her to understand that she needs to give you just compensation in order for your marriage to recover from her affair. Dr Harley does not recommend forgiveness. Can't We Just Forgive and Forget?

Here is a radio clip about forgiveness: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=3387
[November 17, 2011
Segment: #03387]


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Originally Posted by Hopeful_Hubby
[
I agree. She's getting to this point. I read HNHN and am currently reading Lovebusters. I talked about both books with her but never asked her to read them. She has HNHN in her possession right now without my promting. She's not on board with the 20-25 hours yet, but I think she's getting there.

HH, does she have Surviving an Affair? Dr Harley recommends they read SAA instead because it is written FOR the wayward.

Another important point is for her to understand that she needs to give you just compensation in order for your marriage to recover from her affair. Dr Harley does not recommend forgiveness. Can't We Just Forgive and Forget?

Here is a radio clip about forgiveness: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=3387
[November 17, 2011
Segment: #03387]

Preaching to the choir. However, how do you get just compensation without lovebusting? I feel that if I simply ask, due to the nature of our current relationship, that it would withdraw units.

And I should clarify that she's not on board with the 20-25 hours due to the nature of out lives. The incredible amount of pressures I'm under to finish school and the pressures she's under raising the kids. I know these are excuses, and that the marriage should come first and for me it is, however these are realities that we're dealing with as well.

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Originally Posted by Hopeful_Hubby
Preaching to the choir. However, how do you get just compensation without lovebusting? I feel that if I simply ask, due to the nature of our current relationship, that it would withdraw units.

Explain to her that this is what it will take to recover your marriage. It is real important for a BS to set high standards for recovery or there will be no recovery. If you have no standards, she will just live down to your [non-existant] standards. It is up to you to lead your marriage out of the ditch. You can't leave your life and your marriage at the mercy of a drunk driver and it sounds like that is what you are doing. There has to be a PLAN here or you are condemning yourself to years of growing, festering resentment. If you want to see what a marriage looks like when there is no plan, read the posts by BS's who are seething with resentment years after an affair. Or read the posts from BS's who experienced 2nd and 3rd affairs because they didn't set high standards.

Here is an example of the kind of discussion you should be having with her. Add or remove conditions to suit your situation.

Originally Posted by Melodylane
Ask him/her to send a no contact letter to the OP that is written together, approved by you and mailed together. [template below from SAA]

Set her down and explain to her that you want to have a romantic, loving, SAFE marriage and that you won�t stay in a loveless marriage. Tell her you are willing to give her an opportunity to earn your forgiveness. In order for the marriage to recover, certain things have to happen. This is what it will take to keep you interested:

1. end all contact with the OM for life

2. no more nights apart or going out without each other - create a healthy, integrated lifestyle

3. complete transparency - cell phone passwords, etc

4. no more opposite sex friendships

5. complete honesty about her affair<s> � passing a polygraph

6. commit to the Marriage Builders program for recovery as outlined in the book Surviving an Affair.

Tell her "this is what it will take to keep me in this marriage." Whether your marriage ends up with success or failure will depend almost entirely on her willingness and ability to make radical changes. Her lifestyle must become absolutely transparent, holding nothing back. She is in no position to negotiate when it comes to extraordinary precautions, because those precautions are designed to prevent another affair and help you feel safe. She must also meet your emotional needs in a way that until now she has failed. Unless she makes a 180 degree turn in her approach to what it means to be a wife, your marriage won't recover, it will be a crippled version of your pre-affair marriage.

You have nothing to lose and everything to gain by taking this approach, because if she won't do these things, you will have lost nothing except a loveless, abusive marriage.

Unless you use this program to create a much better marriage than the one you had before the affair, you are likely looking at repeat affairs. So don't even think you can get away with sweeping the affair under the rug and going back to what you had before. What you had before led to the affair!


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Originally Posted by Hopeful_Hubby
[

And I should clarify that she's not on board with the 20-25 hours due to the nature of out lives. The incredible amount of pressures I'm under to finish school and the pressures she's under raising the kids. I know these are excuses, and that the marriage should come first and for me it is, however these are realities that we're dealing with as well.

I understand. The reality is that everything comes before your marriage. Your marriage comes LAST. That is WHY you are in this mess. You need to raise the bar!

Nothing will change unless you start living a life that complements your marriage. The nature of your lives is an enemy to your marriage that is leading you to divorce. Your marriage won't last like this.

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Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Originally Posted by Hopeful_Hubby
[
We've had about 8 or 9 counseling session, in which only 3 or so were done together.

Are you airing your grievances in front of each other?

It was very minimal in one session. The counselor was excellent IMO.

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Originally Posted by Hopeful_Hubby
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Originally Posted by Hopeful_Hubby
[
We've had about 8 or 9 counseling session, in which only 3 or so were done together.

Are you airing your grievances in front of each other?

It was very minimal in one session. The counselor was excellent IMO.

So, what is the counselors plan to get you to change your lives to accommodate your marriage and give it the time it needs? What is the plan?


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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Originally Posted by Hopeful_Hubby
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Originally Posted by Hopeful_Hubby
[
We've had about 8 or 9 counseling session, in which only 3 or so were done together.

Are you airing your grievances in front of each other?

It was very minimal in one session. The counselor was excellent IMO.

One problem we'll have is that I'm off to ODS in the military for 5 weeks starting later this summer. So I'm doing everything I can now to get to the point where we can sustain that separation.

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Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Originally Posted by Hopeful_Hubby
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Originally Posted by Hopeful_Hubby
[
We've had about 8 or 9 counseling session, in which only 3 or so were done together.

Are you airing your grievances in front of each other?

It was very minimal in one session. The counselor was excellent IMO.

So, what is the counselors plan to get you to change your lives to accommodate your marriage and give it the time it needs? What is the plan?
Well we've moved out of necessity. This was already planned. And now we'll be in a new state going forward. My plan is to do the MB online program. But I need to present it to her.

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Originally Posted by Hopeful_Hubby
[

One problem we'll have is that I'm off to ODS in the military for 5 weeks starting later this summer. So I'm doing everything I can now to get to the point where we can sustain that separation.

ugh.. That will be a disaster. What bad timing. Can you get out of this?


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Originally Posted by Hopeful_Hubby
[

One problem we'll have is that I'm off to ODS in the military for 5 weeks starting later this summer. So I'm doing everything I can now to get to the point where we can sustain that separation.

ugh.. That will be a disaster. What bad timing. Can you get out of this?
No however, we're living with her parents (who are on board and committed to our relationship and live out in the middle of nowhere)in the mean time until that is over.

Last edited by Hopeful_Hubby; 05/26/12 01:12 PM.
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