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Even after 2 1/2 years of marriage builders, I still frequently fall into thinking "My wife should feel different, the problem is she is seeing this wrong, etc." The difference, Markos, is that you're willing to change your thinking. You're willing to protect your marriage. I think that's it - if I could just get him to see this, things would start getting better. You can't get him to see this. The problem is that you are trying to work the program for him, you are trying to teach him, you are trying to educate him, you are trying to carry his end as well as yours. In complete contradiction to what Dr. Harley would advise. And it doesn't work. It simply cannot work. No matter how much longer you stick at it, it doesn't work.
If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app! Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8. Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010 If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
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I'm not in denial, I see that there is a big problem but I also feel this heavy weight to exhaust myself trying to fix it before considering divorce. It's been 1.5+ years. Dr. Harley advises 3-4 weeks.I know. It seems like it comes in waves, it's not bad all of the time. We go through phases when we are super happy and don't fight at all but when a threat is introduced like the 22 year old girl, everything goes downhill.
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A WS who will not implement basic EPs after having an affair is not going to follow the rest of the program. This is no accident, Penni. QFT!
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I'm not in denial, I see that there is a big problem but I also feel this heavy weight to exhaust myself trying to fix it before considering divorce. It's been 1.5+ years. Dr. Harley advises 3-4 weeks.I know. It seems like it comes in waves, it's not bad all of the time. We go through phases when we are super happy and don't fight at all but when a threat is introduced like the 22 year old girl, everything goes downhill. Because he WILL NOT adopt basic EPs. He WILL NOT follow the program. It's time to stop trying to fix it, Penni. The ONLY thing that has any possibility of getting through to him is for you to finally stand up for yourself and kick his butt to the curb.
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Okay, the next step in my plan will be to really stick to making thoughtful requests and never using SDs and DJs. About half of the time I SD him out of doing something I don't want him to do. This will mean he will do more stuff that will kill my love for him which will make it easier for us to separate.
When we were talking to Steve and then my H stopped, I had a call with Steve saying I wanted to plan A/plan B but didn't feel strong enough. Steve advised me to stop spending UA time with my husband and start doing more things away from my him so that my attachment to him could wear down enough that I could do it.
We didn't have another appointment again after that and I never did it. It's probably time.
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I would expect someone in your situation with your WH, after finding this website to have posted in SAA explaining that my WH had XXX relationships with XXX women and these are the parts of the plan of recovery that he had not followed...ie, to give up opposite sex friendships or he had not agreed to be 100% transparent, etc. Sweeping the As and the lack of EPs under the rug to talk about SDs, DJs and lack of POJA is most definitely a form of denial.
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I would expect someone in your situation with your WH, after finding this website to have posted in SAA explaining that my WH had XXX relationships with XXX women and these are the parts of the plan of recovery that he had not followed...ie, to give up opposite sex friendships or he had not agreed to be 100% transparent, etc. Sweeping the As and the lack of EPs under the rug to talk about SDs, DJs and lack of POJA is most definitely a form of denial. Okay, I guess because the EAs were mostly the other women pursuing him I didn't view it as something that was alarming enough to post in SAA. I do agree that he needs to put EPs in place, though. But, if I even hint at calling them EAs his admiration alarm goes off and an AO ensues. I once asked him what he thought was appropriate for EPs. He said, if a woman tries to kiss him he should stop her. He also thinks that regular lunches alone with another women, talking on the phone with another women regularly while I am not around, or having drinks alone with another woman more than once is unacceptable. He also thinks sexual comments are unacceptable. He thought that giving each other back rubs at work was fine but after a lot of talking he agreed to not do that. That was about as far as we got.
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Start preparing for Plan B now. Plan A is to give your husband "unconditional love" for a brief period of time, usually a month. I know. I've just written two columns that warn against unconditional love. But I've never been opposed to its use if it's intended to prime the pump. One spouse can't save a marriage, but one spouse can often set an example that the other spouse will sometimes follow. Plan A is to avoid all Love Busters, and to meet the other spouse's emotional needs without expecting anything in return immediately. But it also involves communicating the importance of reciprocity. Along with being an angel, you also explain that you expect your needs to eventually be met, too.
But before you begin plan A, prepare for plan B, which is to completely separate from your husband. You can't simply move out of the bedroom. You must move from the house, or have him move. If you live in a state that supports legal separation, go to the trouble to see an attorney so that all financial and legal arrangements are made in advance. Be sure that you can support yourself for an extended period of time, such as a year.
Last edited by Prisca; 07/03/12 01:22 PM. Reason: added link
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Start preparing for Plan B now. This is not something you can put off.
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I would expect someone in your situation with your WH, after finding this website to have posted in SAA explaining that my WH had XXX relationships with XXX women and these are the parts of the plan of recovery that he had not followed...ie, to give up opposite sex friendships or he had not agreed to be 100% transparent, etc. Sweeping the As and the lack of EPs under the rug to talk about SDs, DJs and lack of POJA is most definitely a form of denial. Okay, I guess because the EAs were mostly the other women pursuing him I didn't view it as something that was alarming enough to post in SAA. I do agree that he needs to put EPs in place, though. But, if I even hint at calling them EAs his admiration alarm goes off and an AO ensues. The Policy of Joint Agreement gives you all that the two of you need to build a relationship with EPs. The POJA says it's enough that if you don't want him doing something, he can't do it. He won't follow that, because he does not care about you and your feelings. Even without reference to past EAs, the POJA still says he should not do things you are not enthusiastic about (like text female friends). If he is having angry outbursts, then you need to insist that he successfully complete anger management. I once asked him what he thought was appropriate for EPs. Why ask him? He knows nothing about keeping you safe. He needs to ask you what you are enthusiastic about, and not do anything you are not enthusiastic about.
If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app! Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8. Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010 If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
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I would expect someone in your situation with your WH, after finding this website to have posted in SAA explaining that my WH had XXX relationships with XXX women and these are the parts of the plan of recovery that he had not followed...ie, to give up opposite sex friendships or he had not agreed to be 100% transparent, etc. Sweeping the As and the lack of EPs under the rug to talk about SDs, DJs and lack of POJA is most definitely a form of denial. Okay, I guess because the EAs were mostly the other women pursuing him I didn't view it as something that was alarming enough to post in SAA. Penni, it makes no difference. Every wayward wants to claim that it was the other person pursuing them, and every betrayed spouse wants to think the best of their wayward husband or wife and think that the affair happened because of those nasty other women / men who pursued the innocent wayward husband or wife and wouldn't leave him or her alone. Almost every story posting in SAA is like this. The affairs happened because of his lack of boundaries with women, not because of the women. If it hadn't been those women, it would have been others. Please get your thread moved over to SAA and compare notes with the people there.
If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app! Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8. Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010 If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
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And interestingly enough, you tried to skim over the point and never answered the question and now we see why, because your H never agreed to give up opposite sex friendships and I think you know that he never will. Penni, you are doing it again. Instead of answering the question AGAIN, you give us a long winded answer about what your H thinks EPs mean. And he hasn't agreed to end opposite sex friendships and he won't, right?
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And interestingly enough, you tried to skim over the point and never answered the question and now we see why, because your H never agreed to give up opposite sex friendships and I think you know that he never will. Penni, you are doing it again. Instead of answering the question AGAIN, you give us a long winded answer about what your H thinks EPs mean. And he hasn't agreed to end opposite sex friendships and he won't, right? Right, he won't end opposite sex friendships altogether but he doesn't spend time with other women without me outside of work.
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There is no need to further discuss EPs if a WS refuses to end opposite sex friendships.
That would be like trying to discuss how to safely play chicken.
Last edited by SusieQ; 07/03/12 01:54 PM.
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It's hard for us to help you when you won't even acknowledge what the real problem is.
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Steve Harley knew about those EAs and he didn't start there, he started with POJA.
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Did you tell him that you never recovered after the EAs? Did he know that your H was still leading a SSL and that he was still maintaining opposite sex friendships? I bet he didn't...
He was adamant with me that he starts with EPs because without those the M is crippled and he sees it over and over and over again. I wrote about this in the EP thread.
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Why are you willing to put up with a WS who refuses to implement EPs and will instead gaslight you about it?
Your H knows d@amn well where this behavior (friendships with women) leads to, as he has been down that road before...he knows that it hurts you and he does it anyway. He has basically told you he refuses to change this unless you catch him doing something inappropriate.
Why are you willing to put up with such uncaring selfish behavior?
If he is unwilling to do something as simple as give up texting with some 22 year old girl that he should care nothing about, why would you expect him to make other more serious changes for your M?
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Steve Harley knew about those EAs and he didn't start there, he started with POJA. The only thing I can think is SH took some direction on you from this because my understanding from what he told me is that he would not start with POJA when the M is limping along after EAs and there are serious lovebusters (IB, dishonesty) being committed. I have done about 3-4 sessions with Steve and one with Jennifer at a different time, and we worked on EPs, then we were working on lovebusters & ENs, I don't even think we discussed POJA once. I think that *you* think if you could just get your WH to buy into the idea of POJA that the M would improve and you can just sweep these other issues under the rug.
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Markos tells me that he's heard Dr. Harley says if you want to have a romantic relationship with a woman, become somebody she texts with. Yes and here it is. Radio clip on texting your spouse
FWW/BW (me)
WH
2nd M for both
Blended Family with 7 kids between us
Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.
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