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#2655794 08/12/12 11:31 PM
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Hopefully we can have a civil discussion smile

From what I'm reading, Dr Harley is not against being angry, but is against Angry Outbursts

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3401_angry.html

Even the Bible tells us to "Be angry, but do not sin." The EE paraphrase, but I believe it to be accurate. Which tends to lead me to believe that anger itself is not the problem. The problem is out of control anger. If your anger is out of control, you can be abusive, you can engage in hurtful and sinful behavior.

So what makes for appropriate anger?

If I step in gum and yell at my kids, that's probably not appropriate. But if I step in gum and say, "Nuts!" (Which is the strongest work I use) am I engaged in an AO?

Besides some of the topics I've seen tonight a friend has on his facebook page a picture that says if you are not angry when you are driving, then you probably are not paying attention.

While it elicited a chuckle, it got me to thinking about all the anger out there. Folks getting worked up over being cut off in traffic, or stepping in gum, or what have you.

What is appropriate, MB approved anger and how is it communicated vs when does it become an LB, abusive and destructive?

Because nothing I read says that anger is the problem or even that anger is sinful. After all, even Jesus was angry at the money changers in the temple, and Christianity conveys that Jesus was without sin.

Not trying to make a case for anger. Nor am I trying to justify it. Just trying to establish some ground rules. Folks do get angry about things. When is it good, when is it bad, where are the limits to healthy vs unhealthy anger?

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I think you might be confusing anger with expressions of anger. Anger is a feeling, and there's no getting away from feelings. But there are inappropriate expressions of feelings and appropriate expressions of feelings. Being angry does not entitle someone to act out. (Although there are probably occasions where it would be helpful for you to examine where your anger is coming from. Sometimes it's not a straightforward thing.)




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EE, I have never heard of "MB approved anger" but if you want to know Harley's thoughts on it, I would check out the radio archives. He talks about it all the time, probably more than any other subject.


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I'll admit to confusion with a dichotomy; "it's easier to change your behavior than it is to change your feelings" vs "if you have a problem with anger, just stop it."

These two pieces of advice are oppositional at one point, yet the first is the solution to the second.


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HHH, the difference is that anger is such a destructive emotion that it should be changed. Sure, it is not easy, but it can be done. Feeling anger leads to destructive behavior. It is a form of temporary insanity so it can't be said that it ok to FEEL anger as long as one doesn't act on it. An angry person can make no such guarantee because they are temporarily insane.

Harley, and other anger management specialists, teach people to retrain their brain to go to a different place when faced with frustration. If you do this often enough you will retrain the neural pathways in your brain. I know it has worked for me to a great extent.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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I agree with Curious53. I think it's ok to feel anger, just not act on it. When I was in therapy following my divorce, I went through a period of anger directed at my xW. My therapist said that was a normal part of divorce recovery, and it was ok to feel the angry emotions, but that I had to understand the difference between feeling anger and acting on it. That advice helped me because before hearing it, I wanted to act on my feelings. I think suppressing feelings of any type is not good. Feelings provide information about what's going on in your subconscious. As Enlightened said, even Jesus got angry.

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I have a question. 1st let me say AOs have been a problem for me and I am overcoming them and I will eliminate them...but my question isn't about me and in no way am I trying to say AOs are ok or am I trying to make a comparison here; I fall WAY short.

My question; For believers, Jesus is the Prince of Peace, He walked perfectly and the Father was well pleased with Him and told the disciples to listen to Him! Just exactly what would a person call that Temple episode with Jesus when He turned over the tables, took a whip and forrcefully removed the merchants all the while yelling at them and calling them a den of thieves?


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I would call it an Angry Outburst.

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I think you're comparing something EE that is easier to see as apples and oranges. If I step in gum, I feel frustrated. My family knows me, that when I'm frustrated with something, I may thoughtfully request for help "Aw really?! I can't move, would one of you please get me a napkin from the car?" But that I'm not going to turn it into a tirade against them. I would be a lot more likely to say "Don't you hate it when that happens?!" than "Kids, don't you ever spit your gum out like this, look what happens!" It sounds like your reaction would be similar, that your family doesn't run and hide when something bad happens to you.

But in a family in State of Conflict, that's not getting outside help learning thoughtfulness, that's not what the family can reasonably expect. From experience they know there will be anger and blame, that the person won't settle down until they've gotten their "pound of flesh" from the family trapped in the car with them. It's great that folks come here to learn the Basic Concepts, and create a new experience for their family, but trust isn't re-earned in a day.


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And there should be a huge difference between the yuck feeling someone has when they realize they have stepped in gum in a parking lot, after they just had their car detailed, and the total revulsion one would feel seeing in person a sacred place being used to cheat people.


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One thing I've heard said is that it depends on the source of your anger.

Is your anger selfish, I.E. you feel you have experienced an injustice, or is your anger due to the plight of others? I.E. do you feel anger when you hear/read about some child being abused.

That said, if not kept in check, I do believe even the latter anger can turn destructive and abusive.

After all, there are enough "reality" TV shows were Dance Moms or whomever get angry when they think their child has experienced an injustice, LOL.

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Dr. Harley says when you are angry, say or do nothing. So I would guess that he would say your anger is only appropriate if you say or do nothing. smile That might go along with making a distinction between the feeling of anger, and the behavior of having an angry outburst. But he does say that by developing the habit of doing nothing, and relaxing in response to frustration instead of having an angry outburst, will change your brain, literally rewiring the neurons so that you will develop new mental habits of problem solving instead of frustration.

Dr. Harley says that an angry outburst is insanity and asks "So, do you think it's a good idea to go insane once in a while?"

I have never heard Dr. Harley address the issue of Jesus in the temple. I'm curious to know what he would say. My take on it is that I am not Jesus. smile Jesus may have had the ability to decide what to do when upset, but I presume that I am fallible and He was infallible. If I say or do nothing when angry, then I can be certain that I am following the command "Be angry, and do not sin."

"Be angry and do not sin" was in the reading I read to our children the other night. By the way, if you take a survey of the whole New Testament on anger, you'll find more to it than that. For example, the very next verse tells you to get rid of your anger, quick! Apparently it's too much of a temptation to keep it around long.


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If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8.
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Originally Posted by Enlightened_Ex
Is your anger selfish, I.E. you feel you have experienced an injustice, or is your anger due to the plight of others? I.E. do you feel anger when you hear/read about some child being abused.

That said, if not kept in check, I do believe even the latter anger can turn destructive and abusive.

My anger management therapist said to practice compassion instead of this kind of anger. This kind of anger is on his list of things to avoid.


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Originally Posted by NewEveryDay
And there should be a huge difference between the yuck feeling someone has when they realize they have stepped in gum in a parking lot, after they just had their car detailed, and the total revulsion one would feel seeing in person a sacred place being used to cheat people.

Oh,I agree there should be a huge difference. But it seems to me the philosophy here is that there are no excuses for an AO. Infidelity would seem to fall somewhere between gum on your shoes and seeing hypocrits defiling the Holy place yet an AO is verboten under any circumstance here.

I was asking the earlier question because the OP was asking for civil discussion on the subject and I truly have wandered how folks reconcile the no AO whatsoever philosophy and the manner in which Jesus responded to the Temple defilement and then use Scripture to make various points.

To be clear; I'm not trolling or arguing, just interested/wandering...

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Originally Posted by Enlightened_Ex
What is appropriate, MB approved anger and how is it communicated vs when does it become an LB, abusive and destructive?

When you are feeling anger, don't communicate anything.

Anger is a response to a triggering situation. Instead of letting things get to the point that you are angry, Marriage Builders says you should communicate about the original problem.

Example: it bothers me for you to stay out late at night.

Dr. Harley says that you basically can't resolve your marital conflicts if anger is an issue.


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Originally Posted by markos
Originally Posted by Enlightened_Ex
What is appropriate, MB approved anger and how is it communicated vs when does it become an LB, abusive and destructive?

When you are feeling anger, don't communicate anything.

Anger is a response to a triggering situation. Instead of letting things get to the point that you are angry, Marriage Builders says you should communicate about the original problem.

Example: it bothers me for you to stay out late at night.

Dr. Harley says that you basically can't resolve your marital conflicts if anger is an issue.


Again, I get more and more on the side of separation for solving the issue of AO's - you aren't going to be able to resolve your marital issues if you continue angry outbursts, and you aren't going to be able to solve your anger issues until the marital issues are not constant triggers.

Just a dribble from the APA:

Quote
Changing Your Environment

Sometimes it's our immediate surroundings that give us cause for irritation and fury. Problems and responsibilities can weigh on you and make you feel angry at the "trap" you seem to have fallen into and all the people and things that form that trap.

Give yourself a break. Make sure you have some "personal time" scheduled for times of the day that you know are particularly stressful. One example is the working mother who has a standing rule that when she comes home from work, for the first 15 minutes "nobody talks to Mom unless the house is on fire." After this brief quiet time, she feels better prepared to handle demands from her kids without blowing up at them.

Some Other Tips for Easing Up on Yourself

Timing: If you and your spouse tend to fight when you discuss things at night�perhaps you're tired, or distracted, or maybe it's just habit�try changing the times when you talk about important matters so these talks don't turn into arguments.

Avoidance: If your child's chaotic room makes you furious every time you walk by it, shut the door. Don't make yourself look at what infuriates you. Don't say, "well, my child should clean up the room so I won't have to be angry!" That's not the point. The point is to keep yourself calm.

Finding alternatives: If your daily commute through traffic leaves you in a state of rage and frustration, give yourself a project�learn or map out a different route, one that's less congested or more scenic. Or find another alternative, such as a bus or commuter train.


"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Niels Bohr

"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer

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Originally Posted by HoldHerHand
Originally Posted by markos
Originally Posted by Enlightened_Ex
What is appropriate, MB approved anger and how is it communicated vs when does it become an LB, abusive and destructive?

When you are feeling anger, don't communicate anything.

Anger is a response to a triggering situation. Instead of letting things get to the point that you are angry, Marriage Builders says you should communicate about the original problem.

Example: it bothers me for you to stay out late at night.

Dr. Harley says that you basically can't resolve your marital conflicts if anger is an issue.


Again, I get more and more on the side of separation for solving the issue of AO's - you aren't going to be able to resolve your marital issues if you continue angry outbursts, and you aren't going to be able to solve your anger issues until the marital issues are not constant triggers.

What Dr. Harley says to men is to learn to not have angry outbursts even if you continue to have marital issues and constant triggers. Learn to not lose your temper even if things go wrong and even if your wife does not follow the rules.


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

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The Bible also talks about righteous indignation. I think that's what Jesus was expressing in the temple. We know He was sinless so that was not a sinful episode. I had a preacher friend point out to me that Jesus never showed anger when defending Himself. Only when defending His Father or others.

I think if for ex. your child is about to be abducted, which makes you scared and angry and you act on it and beat up the perp and rescue your child, that's righteous indignation. However if your spouse doesn't get home on time and it peeves you off, and you yell, that's an AO.

I think the difference has to do with the heart and motives.

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This topic rant2 was explored quite extensively a few months ago:

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2587490#Post2587490

The exchanges became so divisive between the "Don't give in" supporters and the "Use it as a tool" contingent that EVERYBODY got angry!

Ironic, no?

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