Onto the other parts of your posts. (I like breaking things up into segments.)

You mentioned your feelings of loyalty. I think you know the #1 rule to this: you gotta keep your boundaries very tight and secure around men, plain and simple. You know this is a problem area - so, what are you doing to shore up any loose ends? Do you have accountability in place with your H?

Since your H knows about your issues in this regard, he should be making sure to keep you accountable with your phone, email, and any other types of contact... If he isn't, then he is not being diligent in protecting his marriage.

I have a feeling that you WANT him to be diligent. You want to know that he is concerned about your relationships with other men; it goes back to the wanting him to be jealous thing.

You've mentioned all the things you got out of your EA's and the internal boundary of physical contact... but to go back to the question about your H's involvement in recovery efforts - is he willing to meet the needs you previously had met by other men? Because if not - it's no wonder you are fearful of remaining loyal, in every sense. I hope he knows this. In some cases, people get the fact that they've gotta cut out the LBs but they conveniently forget they gotta meet needs - whether out of laziness or lingering resentment or whatever the reasons may be.

None of this will work if he doesn't meet your needs.

The selfish demand and SF....I think it's possible that you are expecting immediate gratification for the changes that you've made in this approach and your H is looking to see if this is the new normal or just a ploy to get him to give you what you want.

The thing is, there's got to be some kind of balance where you can be yourself and yet, not LB your husband with your forwardness in this regard. That's what I keep thinking, at least. I'm sure past posts have talked a lot about negotiations and POJA... where are you guys on this?

I also keep thinking that it takes time to change old habits - and effort - and to make this new habits stick, becoming the new normal. Yet, you may find that if you make these changes part of the new you - you may find that you get what you want (more frequent SF) and will no longer fill the need to be so aggressive with this part of your life.

Does it seem unfair to you that you have to "change who you are" in order for H to respond to you sexually? If so, I give you what Dr. H says to men in regard to the SF need: it's your job to incite in your spouse the desire for SF; the spouse isn't supposed to do it when s/he doesn't feel the passion to do so. Therefore, it's your responsibility to change the behaviors that create the mood for your H to desire SF. Sorry. At least, that's my understanding of it. One disclaimer, however: I've never heard/read him reply to a sitch where it's the wife with the SF as #1.

Of course, this is in a situation where both spouses are all in on the program. You mention your H has done nothing suggested in order of raising his drive in the past month. This does not indicate to me that he is all in.

Sidenote: I'm interested in what HHH thinks Joyce might have to say about all your posts! LOL HHH is a pretty smart guy!!!

Thanks SunnyD. What do you mean 3 LONG and completely unrelated posts all in a row is overwhelming??? Lol.

My brain is overwhelming some days.

So are you saying that I was wrong to expect something different than withdrawal? I wasn't setting it up to be some confessional, it was just where the conversation went. I just wanted him to know how much I had self reflected on my own actions, and how truly sorry I was for the pain that I had caused HIM.

For many, many years his response to everything I brought to his attention was withdrawal. It was crushing. He fights it now, but 50% of the time that's still where he ends up. It wasn't because I said anything wrong, it wasn't really about the apology, it was because he withdraws from emotion. Which makes it very hard to work through things, when the response is likely going to be withdrawing when it gets emotional. Lets face it, our LIFE is emotional right now. Recovery after infidelity is emotional. Ya I guess I expect him to not withdraw, because that does nothing to end it and move on, it just burys it until the next time.

H has become fairly proactive about recovery. For the most part, he did turn around and start doing all of the things I wanted/needed him to do. Proactively pushing us to commit to UA time, work on our assignments, etc. Now, we have busy lives. I am sure we are not the only ones. We get overwhelmed with the 'to dos' and start letting things slide. I don't hold him accountable for that, I hold us BOTH accountable for not prioritizing our M. And when we start to feel the affects of that we BOTH start talking about how we need to get back to our UA time, etc. But he does get lazy, then when things start going downhill because of it snaps to, guess thats the answer. We have bad habits of letting life get in the way, that we continue to work on changing.

For a long, long time, he just waited for me to come to him with the plan. He didn't do anything to proactively WORK toward the plan. So that is the difference.

As far as meeting EN's, I guess I'm not sure what to say. He hasn't met my SF need, and although he says he wants to do what he can to meet it, he hasn't worked toward that goal at all. He obviously knows I'm frustrated, he DOES read this thread after all. He has verbally agreed to work on things, but not followed through yet. So I guess his actions have not following his words with regards to meeting my SF need. As far as my other needs, I am not really even focusing on them right now. I guess I am just trying hard to meet his needs and clean up my side of the street.

The SF need I focus on because...well...you know its just so darn biological. Like when you're stomachs growling. The planet could be being taken over by aliens and you would still be thinking about your next meal. That's kinda what sex is like for me.

My boundaries are shored up. BUT. Boundaries are really only as good as the intentions of the person keeping them. What I mean by this is, I have had hard nights with H, usually when he withdraws, which brings me back to the days where he was always withdrawn and I was lonely and eventually very resentful and F him! I just want to call someone and get a quick fix. All it would take is one phone call, to one of my former 'friends' who would be OH so happy to hear from me and tell me how much they've missed me and ... there ya go, fix. UW would feel that happy, warm, completely admired feeling, at least for that moment. Ya I do have people like that deleted from my phone, but some of these are friends I had for YEARS so I have some phone numbers memorized and even if I didn't, if I wanted to I could find them in a matter of minutes. The beauty of modern technology.

I'm not saying I have done this, just that I have had the temptation and that if I wanted to boundaries or not, in a weak moment I could make a phone call, etc.

At the end of the day, and I do believe in boundaries don't get me wrong, but it DOES come down to free will choice.

No. H has NEVER checked up on me. He has never gone through my phone, checked my text history, read through my email. He has my PW's but I doubt he has ever used them. He has never shown any interest in checking up on me, he sees this as a good thing. I see it as a lack of care. You are 100% correct in that I would LIKE him to do this. I would LOVE for him to be jealous, possessive, protective. I don't ever see that happen. Which means, it comes down to me monitoring my OWN behavior.

And no. He does not meet the needs that other 'friends' met. I am not the most modest chick, so I will say it again. I am hot, and I know that many of my male friends over the yrs have physically lusted after me. I LIKE to be desired in that way, and H has never felt that way about me. (refer to the 1000 pages of SF and PA chat...lol) He also has not met my need for admiration, or affection, or IC, or really any of the things that they all met. I would say he is doing better on affection and IC, two of the needs others met. But then again, the withdrawal during IC is something that really bites at me too.

You are right that he needs to meet the needs that they met. But even if he doesn't, I have no right to seek it elsewhere. That's the answer. So that just means that even if he doesn't meet my needs, I need to just suck it up. And I guess I am afraid that I will have a weak moment where I can't suck it up, ya know?

HHH made me cry once. Maybe even twice. Now I am not a crier! That must mean he is very good at giving advice. Hit it where it hurts. No messing around.

It doesn't seem unfair for me to have to 'change who I am.' I don't really see it that way. I WANT to make myself a better person. I always look at this as a personal journey, even if it doesn't work out at the end, I am coming out of this with a cleaned up side of the street! I am glad I am more aware of my aggressiveness/demanding prior to getting into the next relationship if there is one.

But I DO feel slighted, I won't lie, that I am making these changes and trying to play a different role to 'incite' him to be more interested in SF, and he is doing nada on his end to help with that, and at the end I am just getting less sex. That just doesn't seem like a good thing.

Lets recap. Since the beginning of the summer, I have started to dress in skirts, show more leg, show more cleavage (I love cleavage so I already did this), get pedicures and now manicures (painful!), dress HOT for our dates, and do P90X (although sporadically, once school starts though I have a plan for working out 2 hrs/day), decreased my pushiness, curtailed my sexual inuendos, basically at this point stopped talking about sex AT ALL, and where has it gotten me? Sex once a week, that's where. And I started this process a couple months ago getting sex 3-5 times a week. So...what? I'm confused.

I totally get you on the overwhelming brain front! I'm a deep thinker...I understand!

On the withdrawal and were you wrong... my original response was me thinking you had an intentional conversation - so, I misunderstood the dynamics. Perhaps knowing that your H has this knee-jerk reaction, you should be prepared in the future to combat this. His 50% improvement is NOT enough; better than nothing - but not good enough for recovery. You need to learn to tell him how it makes you feel. "H, when you withdraw from a conversation I feel is important, I feel unloved and uncared for..." Because yes, it IS crushing to put your heart out there and not get a response. BTDT. My H can be this way too at times. He's gotten much better.

Glad to hear he is being proactive, but it really sounds like he needs to step up his game in terms of specifics. AND... you need to start focusing on some other needs as well. I really do get the SF thing - but don't forget there are other needs in that queue.

You are right - in all of this, with one exception: you DON'T have to suck it up. Remember, this is NOT marriage at any cost. You can always choose to not be married to someone who refuses to meet your needs. I say that being a HUGE proponent of marriage. I don't think your H realizes what he is risking by not meeting your needs. Seems to think that you will always be there - no matter what - and that "as long as he doesn't cheat again" he is entitled to having you, as his wife - at home - not being fulfilled in career or family. That's not good.

I realize some men think the only need they need to meet is financially: that if they provide well for their family, life should be good. It's wrong thinking. It's time for your H to decide if he REALLY wants an exceptional marriage. If he does, he needs to step up to the plate.

OH, he's done enough to show he's interested, but not enough to show he means business. Where's the POJA on things that will make you happy? It seems that he's of the mindset that as long as he's content - things should be good.

Conversely, maybe you haven't gotten through to him how frustrated you are. The SF thing has become a standoff of sorts... the hot button issue that represents it all. ???

And yes - I'm giving you both a bit of grief here today, I suppose. LOL

Yep - things that make you go hmmm....

So, after considering all the posts and responses, I will tell you where my line of thinking is going. I hope others chime in because I'm not saying I'm right - just what seems to be going on to me.

Every time you meet a criteria of your H's, he gives you another - or - it doesn't produce results. He makes attempts to meet your needs, but doesn't do so a majority of the time, for whatever reason. What does this say?

Perhaps when the whole MB recovery thing started, he "gave in" to doing it because he knew he was wrong for the A. But, maybe he didn't really, fully buy into it. Why? Well - either he was content enough in your relationship that he didn't see the need for real change. Or, he got what he wanted out of you: you changed enough for him to BE content. You - as you've mentioned - cleaned up your side of the street. Being content, he lost his motivation for real change, maybe. Sure: he knew he wasn't perfect so he did change SOME, but how ENTHUSIASTIC is he about making this marriage something GREAT for both of you?

If this is the case, it's for one of two reasons: either he is blind to the fact that you are as unsatisfied as you are, or, he simply doesn't care because he judges your feelings as "wrong" or not important. Some men are chauvinistic that way; women are just hormonal or too emotional.

There's also the possibility that if you are the one doing most of the talking most of the time, he's so used to tuning out that he really isn't hearing you when you tell him what you need.

I have said before that I jumped onto your thread a bit late in the game - so, I guess I need to go back to the beginning if I want to truly understand the dynamics here.

Just some things to consider.

Sorry, I wasn't clear as to what I was responding to.

It was in regards to UW's thoughts and feelings about SF. She regards it as one of her top ENs, and the way she describes things... sounds like she describes it. Like she is the male, and her husband the reluctant woman.

My thought; that one could look at what is told to husbands in this type of situation.

However, I am not 100% confident in that, so I'd rather defer to Joyce and Dr. Harley. I'm sure UW isn't the only woman out there like this, even if it isn't regarded as typical.



I've tried to be more gentle with ya, UW. Funny thing; it hasn't taken a whole lot of effort. When I decided to follow and post to you, you had a lot of push-back, and you showed some bad habits in things with your husband. The changes you have made become reflected in how you post and what you post. In a way, I've posted to you like I would post to a man. I know you ain't a guy, but you have resolve. And that is how you made it this far!


However, at this point... I would usually suggest viewing part of the production of the Vagina Monologues to a man who was facing similar struggles with his wife. For you?

I don't know.


The thought that came to mind was; "T-Rex doesn't want to be fed, T-Rex wants to hunt. You can't suppress 65million years of gut instinct!"

Wait, who is the T-Rex, is it ME or is it H???

I kinda feel like a T-Rex, most days.

In which case T-Rex is being asked to just ignore the nice juicy steak in front of him, and pretend that he doesn't even LIKE steak. He would rather scrapbook instead.

T-Rex says thats a tall order.

Yes, I have specifically told H how his withdrawal makes me feel. I recently, in fact, sent him an email detailing why it bothers me so much, and how it makes me feel, in a very non LBing kind of way. This was after an evening of particularly bad withdrawal, and particularly bad loneliness on my part because of it.

I would say he has gotten better. I can tell he struggles to not withdraw and sometimes wins that struggles, sometimes not.

Oh I don't see it as grief!

Does H realize that he could lose me? Hrm. Well, lets do inventory here. He spent over a decade totally withdrawn from me, meeting none of my needs except for FS, treating me very poorly with emotional abuse and manipulation, having relationships with other women and lying to me about them...and I loved him through ALL of that. I didn't leave. Then I went through a rebellion where I practically hated the man, but I didn't leave. Then I finally got all my answers and was hurt beyond words, but I still didn't leave. Then for a yr and a half we wallowed around in la la land, with no recovery work done, and still, I did not leave. Why on earth WOULD he think, that when he is doing 'more' now than he ever has, I would leave???

Until I change the locks and leave his bags on the front porch, I am pretty sure he will NEVER take that as a serious consequence to his actions, or lack there of.

That being said, I think he has seen the transformation in my eye regarding cheating, and I think he knows if he ever, EVER, even looks at another woman again, HELL HATH NO FURY like UW's scorn. I have spent a good many years of my life devising the best, most vengeful plots and plans that any scorned woman could EVER pull out. Not just to humiliate the parties involved, but to CRUSH life as they know it. Oh ya, I would play dirty. I have always said there will never be a Plan A, Plan B letter, just a Plan FU all the way to the courthouse and I will make it my last dying breath to help kharma along. But I digress.

Short from cheating though, does he take need meeting seriously? Not LBing? Seems to when it applies to ME, yes, but not as it applies to him. In words yes, but not in action.

Yes he knows EXACTLY how frustrated I am regarding SF. Even if I never said a word about it, and he read this thread, one would have to be daft to not know how important it is to me, and that I am frustrated with having NEVER had that need met.

Whats the answer here? IDK, just plug along, telling him what I need and doing what I can to meet his needs. Can't force him to meet my needs. Can't force him to WANT to meet my needs. (Although I've tried both those things, selfish demands baby!).

There was a discussion in another thread this week regarding the 'get out of jail free' card and how long that is in affect. I say it is forever. For everybody. There is always a CHOICE, whether you stay or whether you go. I am a better woman, wife, mother, today than I was yesterday, and am only getting stronger. There's no downside here. I always have a choice. And in the meantime, I am just becoming BETTER, ya know?

Everything I write about why I think H doesn't do the work, after written, seems to be a DJ, so I am refraining from writing anything about WHY he would be unwilling or unable to do the logistical work involved with meeting my needs.

How do I write to the Harley's regarding this SF thing? Have there ever been any other female callers or anything with SF as a #1 need, that I could defer to?

I feel like I have looked at every possible angle from my end. I have tried to meet his PA need better, and am still working on getting in 'P90X' shape per his request. I have tried to explore why HE wouldn't have the desire to have sex with me. I have tried to change my way of thinking about sex, my own sexual nature, and suppress my own need for it more or less. I don't really know what else to do.

I feel like he has not responded much to my PA attempts, and I also feel like he has used the demands theory against me, so that every time I even flirt he can say I am making demands and tell me to stop. I feel like he has used this whole attempt to be less assertive as a way to get out of it more. And its worked.

Talking about SF always makes me feel BAD. GRRRR.

unwritten,

It seems to me that your best option is to make sure to communicate that you are ready and willing to have sex every day (when you are). Titillate him every day. Have fun with the foreplay even if it might be three days of foreplay without SF. He should never think you are not "even interested in sex" when you are.

>>>>The thought that came to mind was; "T-Rex doesn't want to be fed, T-Rex wants to hunt. You can't suppress 65million years of gut instinct!" <<<

This reminds me of when I was dating (developing a new relationship) some years ago. The relationship with my new girlfriend at the time had just developed to the intimate stage. Being new I was still on FULL PURSUIT MODE, I wanted to cement this relation in.
So Im driving around to my girlfriends house to take her out on a date. She hops in the car and after a short few words she asks, "Are we going to have sex tonight?" OK after chashing the car and then thinking about it, I tell her "Yes we will". But the funny thing is, that is not what I wanted to tell her. What I bit my lip from saying was, "Oh if you play your cards right, you might be lucky"
In an instant I had gone from Full Hunting Mode to catch me if you can.

PS UW. My wife (not the girl mentioned above) is just like you regarding SF. So your not the only one.

I am short on time this morning so I don't have a lot of time to reply to everything at the moment. Having said that, to me it all boils down to this:

If your H is not fully on board with the program - believing in it 100% - and wanting to make your marriage an EXCEPTIONAL marriage - for BOTH of you... then, proper recovery is not possible.

You're right not to DJ him, of course. At the same time, if he is using MB principles against you, but not following them himself to make you happy.... that is NOT marriage builders!

To add...him "withdrawing" is actually Stonewalling, which is completely unacceptable, especially after you wrote him a long letter explaining how it hurt you. Remember, one of the main tenets of MB is "to avoid being the source of your spouse's unhappiness."

I think you're right: your H does not see any real threat of you not being there for him, no matter what.

As is always said: the path to recovery is narrow. Moreover, it takes 2 individuals following the path 100%. Naturally, it does take some time... I just hope Mr. UW realizes he must make EVERY effort here, not just SOME effort.

I had to look up the word 'titillate' and was a little concerned what it might bring up on my computer. Sounds like a dirty word...

I think you have missed a few pages of my thread. I am on the 'lay low, expect nothing and demand nothing' agenda right now. IOW, there ain't no titillating or foreplay goin on.

I am pretty confident he knows I want to have sex every day. He remarked on my new behavior, but did not associate that with a true loss of sexual desire.

But keep the advice coming. I'm all out of ideas.

SO JackBlack. What was the demise of this former relationship. Did it have to do with her assertiveness regarding SF? I am guilty of that, fo sho.

And, if your wife is like me and SF is her top EN, how do you manage that relationship? Is SF also one of your top EN's? If not, how does she 'encourage' you to meet her top EN without expectations or demands?

So...not sure what to say about all that SunnyD. I have what I have to work with here. What's should my plan of action be at this point? Keep in mind, I am not doing a Plan B. I am done messing around. The day I change the locks I'm straight to Plan D.