On a side note. I just turned down a quickie. I don't think I have EVER turned down a quickie from H. Had to help H pick his jaw up off the floor.

Now, I feel guilty for missing the opportunity. Its not like I don't want to, I just have to look at the big picture, not the next 10 minutes. The big picture says I 'shouldn't' even if I want to. But what a waste of what could have been a good 10 minutes.

Why does it have to be this complicated.

I understand that you can't force your H to meet your needs or quit LBing. The only thing you can do is to respect yourself enough to stand up for what you want in a marriage. Self respect is the beginning of respect from others. It's up to you to decide if you want to live in a marriage that is less than fulfilling. But here's what's going to happen if you don't have a marriage that is better than ever:

You will continue cleaning up your side of the street while your H continues a little, here and there. He will feel good about the relationship while you will grow more and more resentful. Then, you will wake up one day thinking, "this isn't worth it." When that day comes, if you do not have steel boundaries, you will succumb to having others meet those needs (again - or even further than before) or you will walk.

It's not unusual for these types of situations to go out with a whimper rather than with a bang.

I don't know what it's going to take for your H to get the wake up call that he needs.

What advice do I have for you at this point? Refuse to continue sacrificing; sacrifice leads to resentment. Insist on POJAing, everything. That means, if you are not enthusiastic about solutions, you keep negotiating until you are. NO, that is NOT a selfish demand. If you can't come to mutual, enthusiastic solutions, it's time to get help from the experts. OR...to continue to allow your marriage die a slow death.

The sad part is, if your H doesn't wake up NOW, one day he's going to wake up - when you're done, and it's too late.

Why on earth should you feel guilty?

We always say this is a marathon, not a sprint. It's GOOD to look at the big picture.

As for the TRex comment by HHH, I took it to mean something more along the lines of something I said pages ago - that men like the chase rather than for things to be handed to them on a silver platter. Well, not just men - women too, in a lot of cases. What we seemingly can't have is more valuable to us than when we are offered it for no charge.

However: I can't say for sure that is what HHH's intentions were in the statement. Just my thoughts.

GJ sunny. Working 18 hours, no time to post.

Hi UW

I had no problem with the question asked in my former relationship. I was hoping to illustate that such a small thing as asking a question could begin to change the dynamic of a relationship, and therefore how much more change would relentless pressure make?

For me, too much or too little SF has never been a problem. I have found that by smoothing the bumps out of the relationship, things like SF find their own natural equilibrium.

Dont forget, its not a war. Your partner is not the enemy

It is painful to hear you refer to me as someone with no self respect. I don't feel that way at all. After years of neglect and emotional abuse on my H's part I did NOT have self respect, I was a puddle of weak woman. But in the rebellion phase that changed. I have worked hard to gain my confidence back and get back to where I once was.

Another poster recently posted about the fact he had not exposed his wife's A to many people. The line of the posts was that this was due to his own shame over the A. I can relate. We have never exposed to our families, and only a small handful of my friends know. This is because of my OWN shame and guilt, not over H's A's but over the fact that I STAYED. I have guilt over the fact that I did not high tail it out of here at the first sign of cheating. I am a beautiful, sexy, funny, intellegent, adventurous girl and not the kind of chick who needs to put up with a cheating man. So, I have guilt that I STAYED when I should be sharing my bed with someone more worthy by now.

When I was in college I worked as a waitress, and I always worked on the night that the deals were at the country bar. Because I really didn't like country (do now), so good night to make some cash. I remember my roommate coming home one night and saying "they played this new song at the bar and it totally made me think of you!" Turned out that song was "Any Man of Mine" by Shania Twain. If you've heard it you know it is about a sassy chick who takes no crap from her man. Ha. Guess that's how my friends would have described me. Because I DIDN'T take any crap from a man back then. Men were like buses, if I missed one the next one came along in 5 minutes so hey, you didn't want to treat me right then one man's trash baby.

Anyway, that's the woman I was. Then I became a sniveling girl with no confidence. Now, I have that confidence back but STILL feel shame for not applying my former tactics to this M. To hear you refer to me as someone with no self respect makes me just want to get the hell out of dodge.

As far as the waking up and thinking this isn't worth it. I was there a LONG LONG time ago. I came on here with that attitude frankly. With that resentment. But I decided to set it down, to work the program, for MYSELF if for no one else. To know that I did what I could do. That I did not walk away with any stone left unturned. I can't force H to walk the walk with me. I can't demand that he change. I can only walk to the walk and hope he comes along, and if he doesn't? Of course I am not going to stay in this marriage. No need to keep telling him that, I have already done so and if he doesn't believe me (which, I'm sure he doesn't) then I guess he will be surprised won't he. Not my concern.

As far as the steel boundaries, I do worry about that. Um, let me rephrase that I have bad dreams about it every night.

So how am I still sacrificing? I am so confused. I have gotten so much advice here, and I am thankful for that, but some days I wake up and I don't know if I'm coming or going. I thought me putting down my resentment and working the program, investing MYSELF into this, needed to happen. But now I have no self respect for doing it? I am just sacrificing and doing this all wrong? I'm not getting my need met, so I have jumped through hoops trying to work on my OWN behavior to try and get that need met. I have people telling me I'm too demanding, too aggressive, play it cool, other people telling me I should 'titillate' more, other people saying well they have SF almost every day and I'm wondering how they are playing the game that I'm asked to play and having SF once a day, yet here I am playing hard to get and getting SF once a week, which isn't acceptable to ME or seemingly to any of YOU, but then I am still encouraged to expect nothing and demand nothing and do nothing that H isn't enthusiastic about. All the while, I am working on a body that is the equivalent of a skinny body builder and making plans for plastic surgery in the spring, is that a realistic long term expectation of me? Some people say it is. Is it? IDK. I am totally lost. I don't really know what I'm doing.

I am just trying to say that I feel I am taking everyone's advice and trying to change anything and everything on my end to make this go a different way. And now I feel like you are saying I have no self respect for doing so. And that I am just sacrificing everything.

After a failed weekend of UA time and disappointing interactions with H, I just want to have a Jeremiah/lemonade and smoke a cigarette and say F it all. Only I can't, because its only 8:38 in the morning, and I don't smoke. Guess I will take my frustration out on the laundry instead.

Guilt might not be the right word. I feel, (fill in the blank) that I have wasted an opportunity to have sex. Sex, used to be a glorious wonderful fun experience for me. Why would anybody want to turn it down??? So I turned it down and instead spent those 10 minutes typing on here. No offense I love you all dearly but I would rather have been having sex. Just seems like a waste, to have the energy and passion for it and then turn it down to play hard to get. I'm in a 13 year marriage and I have to play hard to get and turn down sex when I actually do want to have sex but I want my H to think I don't want to have sex to see if he it causes HIM to want to have sex more...

What is the big picture? Today I am having a hard time seeing the big picture. Its an abstract Monet with no defined lines.

I understood what HHH was trying to get at with the TRex comment. And JackBlack's comments. I was joking about ME being TRex. When I turned down the quickie I was thinking "TRex wants to hunt, not whistle and have the prey come a runnin to him...' So meanwhile, I hide in the forest from TRex. And once a week he comes looking for me. Meanwhile as I'm hiding in the bushes I'm thinking this whole thing sucks.

Oh yes this morning I turned it down again. This time, not because I was trying to play hard to get, more because I was like a deer in headlights not sure which way to go. And frankly I just decided it wasn't worth the constant head game. Sex is just turning into one big game I have to think too hard about. I swear at the end of all this I am going to develop a sexual aversion to having sex with H. Guess that would solve the problem at least.

So is the pill with the poison in the chalice from the palace and the vessel with the pestle has the brew that is true?

Go ahead, spin me around like a cat on a hardwood floor. Make fun of my confusion. Kick a horse when she's down.

UW, I understand your frustration - I really do. And I did not mean to hurt you by saying or implying you have no self-respect. I did not mean that you have zero self-respect in any aspect of your life. That's obviously not true. But, there are moments - at least what you communicate here - that show weakness in this area. And of course, I am not there, day in and day out, to see what's what. I (and others) can only go by what you post. Sometimes there are communication problems in which we don't all get the benefit of play by play action. The sacrificing is along the same lines.

I'll give you an example of where I think you are sacrificing: you mentioned the job thing. H doesn't want you to work - at all; you want to work. You've not given any updates as to any POJA efforts on this. So, the implication is, there has been no negotiation. Therefore, it is sacrifice on your part to be a full-time SAHM.

An example of the self respect issue: not insisting that your H be all-in with this program while you are working your rear off for this marriage - for your family.

You can't do this by yourself, UW, you just can't. None of us can. It takes TWO. Your frustration is because you are giving 100% to cleaning up your side of the street - trying to make yourself into the perfect wife your H wants - while he is giving 50% - MAYBE. At least, that's what it sounds like on computer screen.

And you wonder why you're frustrated?

SO, you come here - looking for help - and everyone is throwing stuff at the wall, to see what sticks. Problem is, NONE of it is going to stick for good as long as you are the only one vested in changing this marriage.

From a psychological standpoint, if all you want out of this marriage is more SF, I (and others)can tell you all kinds of things that might get you to that point. But that's not Marriage Builders. MB is holistic: it's about making the relationship deeper, better, greater...so intimate that two really do become one.

Don't miss the forest for the trees.

Just to add quickly - I don't mean my above post to sound snippy, short, harsh, or anything like that... I just have a lot to do today and little time to do it in. I'm cooking dinner for 20 tonight for the organization I do volunteer work for (a program for aged-out foster youth) and I have a 2 hour traction session at my chiropractor's office.... and lots to get done around the house.

Hang in there, UW... I know you're overwhelmed, but you CAN find balance if you stick with it.

I agree with your plan to 'expect nothing and demand nothing' regarding SF. I do not agree about laying low. I would add 'judge nothing'. Your husband is very uncomfortable about SF. I think you are going to have to follow his lead while he reestablishes his comfort. This will be difficult (for both of you) if it is a role he has not played in the past.

I hear you saying that your husband thinks that every time you touch him you are demanding SF. Prove him wrong. Touch him all the time without demanding SF. Hopefully he will accuse you of demanding SF and you can say 'I want SF but it makes me feel good just to touch you' (presuming this is true). Let him know that you get satisfaction just from being close to him. He wants your affections without feeling it has to always lead to SF. Let him figure out how to be the one that actually initiates an SF session. Be cautious about pushing to the next level... follow his lead. If he calls a stop before things get to SF, let him know you are OK with that and that you have really enjoyed being with him (presuming this is true). If he gets you guys to hot and heavy kissing you should be happy and hopefully feel good rush.

This reminds me of when my husband and I took ballroom dancing lessons before we were married. When dancing the man is always the lead. This did not work very well for me since we were both learning and I did not think he was doing the right steps. I judged him poorly with every dance. We got frustrated and did not learn much. Now I know that even if he was doing "wrong" steps I should have just followed his lead. Eventually together we would have gotten to the "right" steps. I hope to try the ballroom dancing again one day.

With SF nobody has to be the lead but I am guessing your husband needs to lead right now.

Best of Luck.

Oh SunnyD you could never sound snippy. Thank you for posting to me on such a busy day for you.

Regarding the job thing. Where that left off (the last time). H came to me and said he wanted to POJA a compromise. He offered many ideas of things that might work, stating that he wanted me to feel fulfilled. What he is not enthusiastic about is me having a full time career. What he IS enthusiastic about is me doing something I am passionate about. We don't need the money, and do need flexibility. We did throw around several ideas, and did not come to a resolution and decided to come back to that topic later. I would say it was more a matter of me finding problems with every idea, hHe did really try to find a solution.

So yes, there was more to that story that you didn't know.

As far as the self respect and not requiring H to be all in. If you recall, in the spring I told him I wanted a D. He begged me not to go, and I decided that indeed, due to my own resentment and need to brow beat him into a puddle, I had not MYSELF invested in R. I read on these threads all the time how Dr H does NOT require a WS to be "all in" when it comes to R, that the BS is usually the one who has to tow the line for awhile until the WS is ready to be all in. I am, in fact, the BS AND the WS, and as such feel that it came down to me, without ever having put all of MY effort in, leaving this M as a resentful and bitter woman. Or putting that resentment aside, for a pre defined amount of time, and going all in. That was the message I sent H in the spring, and that is the message I have carried with me through the summer. I haven't harped on it, constantly reminded him of it, or brow beat him with it (you know I am leaving you in the fall because you are still being lazy and stupid right?)...because my brow beating days are done and over. I am just DOING IT.

I think that screams of self respect, and not the other way around. But maybe I'm mistaken.

I think I have personally come a LONG way in my own recovery, and if this M works because of it then I am better than I thought I was. And if it doesn't? Some other guy down the road is going to benefit from this awesome reconstruction.

And I am not giving 100%. I am giving MORE than he is, but I still have more to give.

Good point about the SF. I do get caught up on that point don't I. I guess when that need is not being met, it is hard to see the big picture. I get crabby and just want that need met, then I can focus more easily on the rest of the forest.

Overall, I guess I don't really believe that a holistic, two become one M is possible with this man. I feel like if I let up AT ALL, he very willingly and happily goes back to old habits, old selfish ways. I think the only thing that will at this point cause a true epiphany, would be D papers in hand. But then, it is too late.

UW, you wrote:

"Another poster recently posted about the fact he had not exposed his wife's A to many people. The line of the posts was that this was due to his own shame over the A. I can relate. We have never exposed to our families, and only a small handful of my friends know. This is because of my OWN shame and guilt, not over H's A's but over the fact that I STAYED. I have guilt over the fact that I did not high tail it out of here at the first sign of cheating. I am a beautiful, sexy, funny, intellegent, adventurous girl and not the kind of chick who needs to put up with a cheating man. So, I have guilt that I STAYED when I should be sharing my bed with someone more worthy by now."

I can relate to this; I'm pretty sure I mentioned it in my thread at one point - especially in relation to my 20 year old daughter and what message me staying sent.

Shame, as I've mentioned on MSS's thread, is a crippling emotion!

I felt shame not only over staying, but that everyone who heard about the A would deem it my fault. Society sometimes blames the victim, and not just the "big, bad adulterer." It's like, if some man is a player or some woman is a gold digger type - then, OF COURSE, it's their fault! But when a seemingly "nice guy/girl" has an A, it MUST be the spouse's fault for not being a good husband or wife!

We all know that's not true - but that's how it can be out there in the real world.

Anyway, you have to fight the shame. I know I did. I think I was forced to since my then 16 year old (now S18) told the whole youth group at church. I had no idea (still don't) who knew about our whole messy life. Now, it simply doesn't matter. The close friends and family members I confided in were so, very supportive - that it has made it a lot easier to deal with that toxic shame. The best medicine for it? An exceptional marriage. With our new relationship, I feel proud of the work we've done; proud of what we have together; and happy - so happy that it doesn't matter what others might think.

Our kids are proud too.

If you cannot stop judging him because of past behavior and you truly believe you "should be sharing my bed with someone more worthy by now". Then do yourself and him a favor and leave before you run into the man who is worthy of you.

I suspect your husband knows that you see him as someone not worthy of you. No matter what efforts you put into your marriage if he believes he will never be worthy of you he has no reason to try. Whether you do it with words or not he can hear your DJ. He probably hears you judging him even when you are not.

If you want to make this marriage work give him a clean slate and make him believe he has it. If he does something "wrong" in the present do not say "You are doing it again, this will never stop". If you think that, tell yourself "we need to address this specific example in isolation" and mention to him that what just occurred bothered you for some present reason not just because it was a repeat of past behavior.

I am very affectionate to H, always have been. And it isn't in a way that always leads to sex, or that I expect it to. I frequently touch him just walking by him, say, when he is at the computer and I run my hand through his hair. He used to HATE that, and would complain about it. But now it seems he can't get enough. I will say however, that when I am being affectionate and perhaps go overboard (verbally, usually it is because I said something sexual that makes him feel I am demanding) and he tells me I am being demanding or in some way rejects me, I feel uncomfortable even touching him in affectionate way. Because I am hurt. I am rejected (again). And I don't really know all the time WHAT it is that made him feel like I made a demand, so I just pull back on everything.

As far as initiating, I do not ever initiate now. I do not plan to. I do not make advances to him, or try anything in bed, I don't come to bed wearing lingerie or carrying props or asking for SF in any way...I just come to bed and say goodnight and go to sleep.

I will say that I honestly am not OK with just letting him run the show. That's the problem. I am getting resentful over this, because I feel like a beggar. Maybe I should have felt that way a long time ago, I didn't for some reason when i was being demanding because I guess I still had some control. Now I just feel like I am waiting around for him to throw me a bone. Oh I am just here for you H to do whatever you want whenever YOU want, doesn't matter what I want or when I want it, it is all about you. Is it OK for me to just have him get me excited and then go, oops, just teasing thats all you get for tonight. He11 no. Let's not forget that I am not made of stone. I do feel very rejected by him and even more so in this scenario.

Um, isn't it the MB way that he has to EARN his clean slate??? Why should I, after over a decade of cheating and lying, give him a clean slate he hasn't earned???

And I do NOT say "you are doing it again, this will never stop." So please, quit djing ME.

He has to EARN that worthiness via just compensation. He can and should be judged by past behavior. Just as we judge someone for good behavior, we also judge our spouse for GOOD behavior.

He doesn't get a clean slate as an entitlement, he has to earn it.

My best friend, unfortunately, was excited to hear that I found out H had cheated. Because she thought once and for all it would be the nail in his coffin. Surely I would leave him after discovering THAT (and the fact he had been lying all that time). When I didn't, it damaged our 20 yr relationship. She was just tired of listening to my stories of what a jerk he was, and thought even now, when I find out he cheated on me, I still stay and want to take more abuse. She just didn't want to hear about it anymore. So we rarely speak, and I haven't seen her in well over a year

Guess what i'm saying is that for the handful of people I did tell, it didn't all go real smooth. Nobody was proud of me, nobody wanted to see us reconcile. Everybody wanted me to leave, and was disappointed that I chose to stay. There has certainly not been any RL support in recovery. I don't have any plans of telling anyone else.

Also, we all know that any man I run into WHILE STILL MARRIED would NOT be worthy of me. I meant that statement to mean 'moved on, got divorced, got into a relationship with a man that was willing to be in a good, functional, MB based relationship...' not that I was planning to go cheat on him.