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...
It is, more or less, a crazy cycle. As in, a cycle of craziness.
Women just don't have the emotional "gas tank" to be the full lead in this - which is one of the reasons that Dr. Harley is tougher on husbands.
If that cycle cannot be broken... the end result in this situation is to follow a Plan A ----> Plan B setup. Exactly my thinking as well. So they need to Plan A together and I think they ARE ready to do it NOW. Mr. UW should be able to turn the gas all the way up. UW may just have a little bit of gas right now but she can just focus on not throwing Love Busters.
Last edited by WhoAreWE; 08/22/12 01:16 PM.
Me-41 (WW)
DH-46 (BH)
DD-7, DS-11, DD-15
Together 20 years, married 16
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I think that the BH gets the choice. No, Dr H tells a BS they must expose, regardless, because recovery is a very narrow path and none of the steps can be missed out. He describes exposure as one of the most important steps. At no time does he tell BSs to skip exposure unless they feel like it. No one feels like doing it. I didn't want to tell everyone I had been fooled by the two people I trusted most, but it is the MB Plan. I wanted to do everything I could to recover so I sucked it up and did it. It's not until after I did it I saw the wisdom of it. If a BH wants his WW to be transparent, he needs exposure. If a BW wants her WH to live transparently, exposure is needed. If either BS or WS disagrees with exposure they aren't following MB but following an easy shortcut instead.
What would you do if you were not afraid?
"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.
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No, Dr H tells a BS they must expose, regardless, because recovery is a very narrow path and none of the steps can be missed out. He describes exposure as one of the most important steps. At no time does he tell BSs to skip exposure unless they feel like it. No one feels like doing it. Indie, Reread "When Should an Affair Be Exposed?" Dr H words are not as strong as yours and the article mostly focuses using exposure to end the affair. The issue of exposure comes up when a betrayed spouse has first learned about the affair. Should it be exposed to others, or kept secret? I generally recommend exposure. In the end he states that not only does it help end the affair but it provides support to the betrayed spouse. I do not think UW is concerned with ending the affair. So her exposure is about getting support. I would hope that Mr. UW would not have a problem with UW exposing to close family and friend from whom they could get support. A shotgun exposure seems inappropriate. It not only helps end the affair, but it also provides support to the betrayed spouse, giving him or her stamina to hold out for ultimate marital recovery. And I just reread "Coping with Infidelity: Part 2 How Should Affairs End?". It does not mention Exposure at all. I would conclude that it is NOT be a MUST do. That being said on the Surviving an Affair forum exposure is definitely sold as a MUST do step. Probably because there are a lot of affairs still in progress there. The thing that MUST be done for recover is no contact with the former lover. Hopefully UW and Mr. UW have established that. http://www.marriagebuilders.com/mb2.cfm?recno=9&sublink=584http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5060_qa.html
Me-41 (WW)
DH-46 (BH)
DD-7, DS-11, DD-15
Together 20 years, married 16
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I never referenced the article How Affairs should end, because we are not talking about ending an affair. His other articles cover exposure of old affairs. He recommends exposing affairs even if they happened decades before.
And I never said he recommends exposure in all cases. I simply objected to the concept he would tell someone to skip exposure simply because they didn't feel like it.
There are exceptions to exposure being recommended. Dr H lists those exceptions very clearly in his discussion on when not to expose. It is always for very specific and serious reasons when this unusual step is taken. Not because the BS decides not to..
What would you do if you were not afraid?
"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.
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I am completely TJing now, because Unwritten has made her decision clear. However I think its really dangerous to suggest that Exposure is only used for active affairs. That is not what Dr H has said at all. He has said it useful for BOTH ending affairs and creating a more transparent marriage for recovery. What about exposure of an affair that took place years earlier and is now ended but recently revealed? I feel that the children, close relatives, close friends, and the lover�s spouse should be informed. Granted, it�s embarrassing to admit an affair, but publicly admitting failure is usually the first step toward redemption.
As you already know, I�m a strong advocate of honesty and openness in marriage. I call it transparency�letting your spouse know everything about you, especially your faults. But should that level of openness carry into the public arena? I believe that it should in cases of extreme irresponsibility, and that certainly includes infidelity. When you have done something very hurtful to someone else, others -- especially those who care for you the most -- should know about it. Such exposure helps prevent a recurrence of the offense. Your closest friends and relatives will be keeping an eye on you�holding you accountable. I do not think UW is concerned with ending the affair. So her exposure is about getting support. No it is about being open, accountable and transparent with their loved ones. Support is an added bonus. I would hope that Mr. UW would not have a problem with UW exposing to close family and friend from whom they could get support. A shotgun exposure seems inappropriate. I think it is highly inappropriate that not ONE single person in Mr UWs life is holding him accountable except for his wife. No wonder she is feeling such strain. And I just reread "Coping with Infidelity: Part 2 How Should Affairs End?". It does not mention Exposure at all. Again, we are not discussing ending an active affair, so that article is not relevant. We are discussing exposure for recovery. Anyone who exposes must read up on the specifics of exposure separately to its effect on an active affair. There ARE exceptions to exposure. Dr H has taken the trouble to list those few exceptions. The exceptions to exposure include a physically violent spouse, uncertainty there is/was an affair and a financially dependant spouse without immediate means of support. And these are only exceptions to IMMEDIATE exposure.
What would you do if you were not afraid?
"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.
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[b][/b] What about exposure of an affair that took place years earlier and is now ended but recently revealed? I feel that the children, close relatives, close friends, and the lover�s spouse should be informed. Granted, it�s embarrassing to admit an affair, but publicly admitting failure is usually the first step toward redemption.
As you already know, I�m a strong advocate of honesty and openness in marriage. I call it transparency�letting your spouse know everything about you, especially your faults. But should that level of openness carry into the public arena? I believe that it should in cases of extreme irresponsibility, and that certainly includes infidelity. When you have done something very hurtful to someone else, others -- especially those who care for you the most -- should know about it. Such exposure helps prevent a recurrence of the offense. Your closest friends and relatives will be keeping an eye on you�holding you accountable. Embarassment is not a reason to not expose. Embarassment as a result of exposure is to be taken for GRANTED. Exposure is DESIGNED to be embarassing. It is a KEY EP and helps keep the future marriage safe. It is is the first step toward redemption and motivates both spouses to recover in the right way.
What would you do if you were not afraid?
"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.
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Indiegirl,
UW has already mentioned that she is unlikely to get any support from exposure, so the gains from such a self exposure are going to be more limited.
A double exposure from a state of conflict could be quite messy ... each trying to outdo the other. Even starting from good intentions things often end up this way.
Mr UWs ONS was 11 years ago, hes reformed and has now had a clean slate for many years, its conceivable that hes is seen as the good guy. Like Teflon.
For a self exposure to be of value in this case it would seem necessary to have Mr UWs full support and backing.
UW has said she will run the idea of exposure past Dr Harley, which is the best idea. Its needs someone very experienced to make the call and if going ahead, to manage it so it doesnt end up a big bunfight.
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I've already mentioned I'm aware of UWs decision to seek further advice. I was responding to claims that Dr H recommends skipping exposure except in cases of an active affair for other posters reading along. It can be quite dangerous for posters to make the common mistake that exposure is only for active affairs. Dr H has specifically stated that long dead affairs must be exposed too. UW is free to make her own decicion but we must remember new posters might see this as his standard advice if forum members start saying this.
Just clarifying his advice for others.
What would you do if you were not afraid?
"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.
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They say that confession is good for the soul.
Last edited by Jackblack; 08/23/12 05:55 AM.
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Last edited by WhoAreWE; 08/23/12 07:53 AM.
Me-41 (WW)
DH-46 (BH)
DD-7, DS-11, DD-15
Together 20 years, married 16
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For a self exposure to be of value in this case it would seem necessary to have Mr UWs full support and backing.
UW has said she will run the idea of exposure past Dr Harley, which is the best idea. Its needs someone very experienced to make the call and if going ahead, to manage it so it doesnt end up a big bunfight. I am unclear on where the confusion lies? Why bother Dr Harley with questions he has answered exhaustively? Exhaustively.. And why would anyone need to fight about such an issue? Exposure is a positive thing, not a negative thing. What about exposure of an affair that took place years earlier and is now ended but recently revealed? I feel that the children, close relatives, close friends, and the lover�s spouse should be informed. Granted, it�s embarrassing to admit an affair, but publicly admitting failure is usually the first step toward redemption.
As you already know, I�m a strong advocate of honesty and openness in marriage. I call it transparency�letting your spouse know everything about you, especially your faults. But should that level of openness carry into the public arena? I believe that it should in cases of extreme irresponsibility, and that certainly includes infidelity. When you have done something very hurtful to someone else, others -- especially those who care for you the most -- should know about it. Such exposure helps prevent a recurrence of the offense. Your closest friends and relatives will be keeping an eye on you�holding you accountable. Dr Harley has already answered this question.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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And why would anyone need to fight about such an issue? Yes that was the other part I wanted to flag up to anyone confused about exposure. No fighting required! If you have an uncooperative spouse you simply do it, and refuse to argue about it with the wayward. However you would expect two people in recovery to sit down and willingly expose to their loved ones together as they follow the plan in full. A refusal to do so is a refusal to follow a recovery plan. Can't think why anyone would have any reason to argue.
What would you do if you were not afraid?
"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.
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UNwritten, I see you are taking a break from posting which I think is good. If you do pop in here to take a peek, I just wanted to tell you to have a great vacation. Relax, enjoy and don't think LOL!!
Thinking of you,
RQ
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I don't have much to report, things are going well. I have been in good spirits after vacation and both H and I are excited to get back to our recovery work. Vacation, start of school, along with some kid issues has put a wrench in our UA time but we have been trying to make the most of the moments we have been together.
We have agreed to work hard on our at home program in the next month, and if in a month from now we don't stay on track we will bump it to the online program so we can get a coach and have some more accountability. Also plan to do some counseling with SH this fall, on specific issues that seem to be bumps in the road, such as SF.
H has had a really good attitude, he is the one who is constantly saying we need to plan another date, plan more UA time, do this or that regarding our program or spending time together. One thing I notice is that we feed off each other, if I am positive then he is positive, but the minute one of us gets into a funk the other one follows. Wish we weren't so dependent on each other's emotions, when we are being positive it works great but when I have a bad day or he has a bad day, things can go to hell in a handbasket in a hurry.
Recovery is like a big game of Shoots and Ladders I guess.
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The real reason I resurrected my thread is because I had to tell you all about a dream I had while on vacation. We spent some time at Disney World. So one night I had a dream that we were standing in a line, all holding our autograph books but instead of Disney books they were MB books and instead of standing in line at Disney to see Mickey and Minnie we were in line at like some MB event to see NG, MelodyLane, ... We got our MB autograph book signed and there was a photographer there taking photos of you with your favorite posters.
My imagination scares even me sometimes.
But it does represent the level of admiration I have for several of the MB posters, what an amazing gift it is for them to help others the way the do.
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Great! Let me project - MelodyLane ![[Linked Image from upload.wikimedia.org]](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/6/68/Snow_White_Disney.jpg/250px-Snow_White_Disney.jpg) NeverGuessed ![[Linked Image from top10hm.com]](http://top10hm.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/Yosemite-Sam.jpg)
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The real reason I resurrected my thread is because I had to tell you all about a dream I had while on vacation. We spent some time at Disney World. So one night I had a dream that we were standing in a line, all holding our autograph books but instead of Disney books they were MB books and instead of standing in line at Disney to see Mickey and Minnie we were in line at like some MB event to see NG, MelodyLane, ... We got our MB autograph book signed and there was a photographer there taking photos of you with your favorite posters.
My imagination scares even me sometimes.
But it does represent the level of admiration I have for several of the MB posters, what an amazing gift it is for them to help others the way the do. I would wait on line for that as well.  I agree, we are very lucky to have found them
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Um I TOTALLY see MelodyLane as the gun toter NG, not you.
Since it was a dream, I don't remember all the details. But I do remember HerPapaBear was in some sort of throne, like a king, and Indiegirl was like the sweet little Snow White only with a quaint English accent. I think you NG had on some kind of British polo attire or something very proper like that. I see you in plaids and sweater vests.
Last edited by unwritten; 09/13/12 10:59 AM.
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I think you NG had on some kind of British polo attire or something very proper like that. I see you in plaids and sweater vests.Oh....dear....God! Where's that "notify" button? I think I have been abused!!!  (Please, please, please, don't let Mel read this!)
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I think you even had on one of those funny little flat hats, if I recall my dream correctly. Think eccentric college professor.
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