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Originally Posted By: NeverGuessed
MSS, I hope you don't mind what I'm about to suggest.

WAW, your FBH can get a HUGE education in the struggles and ultimate triumphs of a BH tortured by imaginings by simply reading both of MSS's threads, this one in SAA, and this one in Recovery. It's actually not vitally important to read MSS's notes, as your FBH seems poised to compose many of the same ones himself. Instead, have him read what the incredibly patient and wise MBers advised MSS, especially about the ongoing damage he was causing, and the need, at some point, to don a hero's garb, a simply slay the monster,

(MSS, you are NOT advised to review those dark times, okay?)


I agree. MSS story is one I have read and look back through.


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WAW,

One other big issue with some BHs, myself at least, is that we imagine that the sexual part of the affair was more frequent, more pleasurable, more intense, more varied, more orgasmic, than the sex has ever been within the marriage. While this might not be the case it nevertheless seems very real to the BH.

Was the OM superior to your BH in some ways, older, taller, etc, made more money?

Did prior GFs or Ws cheat on your BH, perhaps they did and your BH is too ashamed to talk about it, especially in light of this latest confirmation, in his mind, of his worthlessness.

God Bless
Gamma

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Originally Posted By: Gamma
WAW,

One other big issue with some BHs, myself at least, is that we imagine that the sexual part of the affair was more frequent, more pleasurable, more intense, more varied, more orgasmic, than the sex has ever been within the marriage. While this might not be the case it nevertheless seems very real to the BH.

Was the OM superior to your BH in some ways, older, taller, etc, made more money?

Did prior GFs or Ws cheat on your BH, perhaps they did and your BH is too ashamed to talk about it, especially in light of this latest confirmation, in his mind, of his worthlessness.

God Bless
Gamma


BH definitely focused on the fact that I put him down and said POSOM was more important than him and that I can never take that back.

I do not know how the truth of today will ever be able to overshadow what the affair said about me, him, and our marriage.


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Originally Posted By: WhoAreWE
[In the clip BrainHurts posted earlier, Dr H told the BW that she knew enough. Unless she just defers to his opinion she will have a hard time knowing when she knows enough.

Did you also hear Dr. H ask her how many days and hours does she think they've talked about it? It was something like 35 hours.


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Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.



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Here's the follow up show to the BW and WH whom are still struggling because they aren't following the program.
Radio clip of follow up show
Segment #2
Segment #3


FWW/BW (me)
WH
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Blended Family with 7 kids between us
Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.



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Originally Posted By: WhoAreWE
I have hope. My husband does not believe he can ever be "in love" with me again. I am trying to have enough hope for both of us.

If you make love bank deposits and avoid withdrawals, your husband will find himself in love with you in spite of his present belief. The problem will be the depletion of your own love bank.

One of the key things that allowed me as a BH to stop hounding my FWW over the affair was my going to a psychiatrist and getting put on medication. Dr. H talks about the importance of this a lot, most recently on the radio program yesterday. It was a God send for me. It made me rational again. I could see through my own self-defeat that my marriage was indeed logical and her affair was not and that I could be her rescuer from the nightmare she had stumbled into. It brought that horrible drive in me to obsessively talk about the affair under control. I guess I am saying that in my case, the need to talk about the affair was a symptom of a psychological injury for which there was effective treatment, and I am very glad that I got that medication when I needed it.


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WAW,

One of the impressions I'm getting from you posts, although this may be incorrect, is that your are holding back from being completely truthful and detailed with your BH out of fear of him finding out something you have suppressed.

That's no basis for a long term marriage, as radical honesty is the only course of action which has a hope of bringing you back together.

God Bless
Gamma

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Originally Posted By: Gamma
WAW,

One of the impressions I'm getting from you posts, although this may be incorrect, is that your are holding back from being completely truthful and detailed with your BH out of fear of him finding out something you have suppressed.

That's no basis for a long term marriage, as radical honesty is the only course of action which has a hope of bringing you back together.

God Bless
Gamma


My memories of the affair were suppressed during a year of "abuse". I buried the memories over many nights of sleeping outside on the ground or walking a lone for miles to be away from my husband raging for hours about what a POS I am.

It is over now and I do not want to discuss that phase in our "recovery". I definitely feel safe with my husband now but I do not feel safe thinking or talking about the affair.

I have a lot to get past before Radical Honesty can be fully implemented. This is a marathon not a sprint.


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WhoAreWe.

Your marathon should be racing towards recovery, not away from RH.

RH is the MOST important thing for a BS, yes. Lies given are more painful than the SF given away.

But it is also important for your healing. I agree you need to face yourself. Why keep this toxin within, when it is better thrown out?

Holding on to lies and secrecy is liking upholding a boulder. It gets heavier the longer you fear putting it down. And you are alone in it. So very very alone.

Put the boulder down and start the healing. Put the written q&a solution in place tonight.


What would you do if you were not afraid?

"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.

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Originally Posted By: WhoAreWE
My memories of the affair were suppressed during a year of "abuse". I buried the memories over many nights of sleeping outside on the ground or walking a lone for miles to be away from my husband raging for hours about what a POS I am.

When was the last time he raise his hand to you, or you to him?


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Originally Posted By: mrEureka
Originally Posted By: SunnyDinTX
According to Dr. H, there should be one big affair talk and no more.

It is an easy thing to recognize this as ideal, or at least as ideal as you can get under these conditions.

My experience was not so ideal. My FWW trickle-truthed me for several months. I tried to end it with the "big talk", and what I got was the "I can't remember and don't really want to remember" situation, similar to what WAW cites. We had the big talk anyway. Then, more details came to light here and there as time has gone on and my FWW's memories bubble to the surface. I try very hard to not talk about the affair. But the single biggest factor in the success of "the big talk" lies in the participation of the WS, and, unfortunately, WSs at that moment in time are often don't participate very well.


In the case of a WS, they SHOULD participate VERY well or else the couple is not yet fully buying into MB and risking a false recovery.

In the case of WHO, she is the FWS and it's her H that is not fully participating in MB.

Just wanted to point out that those are two very different dynamics as a FBS should make FULL participation in the recovery program - including O&H during the big talk - a condition of reconciliation.

If a FBS gets a lot of I don't remembers, a polygraph is often recommended as the next step - asap into recovery.

I do think there are circumstances where a FWS truly doesn't remember some details, keeping in mind they are not in a normal frame of reference during the A. A polygraph would reflect that truth, however, and it's purely up to the BS to demand that.

ETA: I realized this post was a few pages back, but I wanted to put this out there because new posters could always be reading along.

Trickle-truths are no fun, that's for sure!


Last edited by SunnyDinTX; 08/29/12 02:26 PM.

"The #1 reason why people give up so quickly is because they tend to look at how far they still have to go, rather than how far they've gotten."

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S (16)
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My Recovery Thread: http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2538986#Post2538986
My Original Thread: http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2457141&page=1

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Originally Posted By: WhoAreWE
Originally Posted By: TheRoad

A BH that is left with questions that need answering will have him searching for answers for the rest of his life. He will most likely never be able to leave the affair in the past. Part of every day will be spent in his quest for answers.

He may never get any new information so he will just keep looking at the pieces of the puzzle. Rearranging the pieces trying to see if he can get any new answers or possible clues.


I do not want my husband to live the rest of his life not wanting to talk to me. Having not lived through the events himself he can never know everything so how can he decide he knows "enough". In the clip BrainHurts posted earlier, Dr H told the BW that she knew enough. Unless she just defers to his opinion she will have a hard time knowing when she knows enough. Over the years of trickle truth did you ever think you knew enough but later changed your mind or had he leak information so you knew thinks you had not known.

Are you still married? Have you ever recovered? Did your wife had multiple affairs? Did she have affairs after 1981? Sorry for asking so many questions... I guess you are like a puzzle to me.



Yes.


Yes, bought the baloney story. But a slip up would result in a trickle truth. Believed there was no more. Then another trickle truth. Which started me to realize I don't have the whole story. Now I know I am missing so much. Missing more then I know.

Not mad at what happened. Sad that I'm left in the dark. I can no longer accept having the truth witheld.

The missing truth has prevented the necessary and meaningful talks needed to let this pass.


No.


"I do not want my husband to live the rest of his life not wanting to talk to me. Having not lived through the events himself he can never know everything so how can he decide he knows "enough"."

It is said that only each BS can decide how much detail he needs to know.

Also said a BH should think first before they ask a question because once an answer is heard it the answer can't be unheard. So a BH needs to proceed slow. Start with a general question line then go deeper as needed.

Example Q: did you have sex
A: yes

Notice the BH did not ask were condoms worn. After he asked about sex and he got this truth he may not be able to hear that no condoms were used. So the BH will not ask deeper but move on to another general question.

The WW answered truthfully. She let the BH control the depth by not giving more detail the asked for.

I have read posts by WW where the BH never new he had a WW until she confessed. The BH's only response was is the affair over are you leaving me.

Lucky, I use this word and chuckle a little, for these BH their WW wanted to recover their marriage. They were baffled by how their BH was not acting normal, no questions, refused to hear anything about the affair.

These BH were acting normal. They knew how much they could handle learning about the affair and were not willing to go past that point.

Some have to know everything. The rest are some where in between.

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WAW, it's been a while since you posted on this thread (you did on Vejan's).

It would be unlikely that almost two weeks would go by, for a couple in your tentative recovery state, with no issues - good or bad - and no progress (or regress) to report.

How are you and he doing with the necessary UA time? Have you and he reached an equilibrium between what he wants to know, and what you are able to recall?

Please let us know.

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WAW,

I did not abonandon my own thread just left for a lengthy family vacation, came back last week and didn't feel the need to resurrect quite yet. So, no TJing on my part and I am happy to see you start a thread of your own. So I can harrass you like you harrass me...just kidding! I meant SUPPORT you like you support me smile

As far as giving details. My sitch is slightly more complex in that both H and I are the BS, and the WS. Speaking as a BS I can tell you that I had to have EVERY last detail. When I first learned of the ONS I threw up for 12 hrs. Every meaningful talk we had about details thereafter where I got more intel, I shook violently while we were talking and I threw up afterwards most of the time. It sucked. But I could not possibly move on without getting it all on the table, I just couldn't.

I bring this up because you mentioned that you could not go back to those memories, it would make you physically ill to do so. It is not about you. It doesn't matter if it makes YOU physically ill to do so, if your BH needs that info you give it to him. Even after having my WH take a poly it took some time for the thought to settle in that I had all the info. It is just now starting to feel like a monkey off my back, to know that I know EVERYTHING. OK, maybe not every thing, occasionally I think of some small, minute, completely irrelevant thing that I might not know, and I tell myself to just let it go.

As the WS, I have answered every question my H has asked me about any wayward behavior I have had, with no exceptions. It wasn't hard to say it, in terms of guilt, as much as it pained me to have to tell it when I knew the answer was a dagger in my H's heart. But if he wants or needs to know, I will tell him. And I will hold him afterwards, if he lets me.

RH truly is the single greatest step you have to take to even begin R, IMO.

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NG,

Thank you for thinking of me.

The last week or so have been pretty rough. I could not imagine enjoying time together. I spend a lot of time in the state of withdrawal... my optimistic outlook for the future was hard to find. I thought about posting here but I could not think of anything constructive to say. I am reading Love Busters but I need the reader's digest version. Our biggest problem has always been Love Busters.

I think that my husband is stuck wanting the answer to why I had the affair and how he failed to see that I was such a bad person. The details of the affair are support material for what a bad person I am. He does not accept the MB philosophy that anyone would have an affair given the right circumstances. His current thought is that my fundamental values are flawed and I cannot fix that. I tricked him into thinking I was a good person (like him) but I am not.

I was reading on someone else thread that the BH stopped asking his FWW about why she had the affair because he always got fogbabble or that he was not meeting her emotional needs. I guess I am in the same situation. If I say what I thought when I was having the affair then it sounds like fogbabble. If I say what I think now then it sounds like an ad for Marriage Builders (which my husband is not buying). I will not accept his explanation that I am an evil person.

When I post on other people's threads it helps me think about my situation from another angle. I am not sure it is benefiting the other person so sometimes write and then delete before I post.


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Originally Posted By: unwritten
Every meaningful talk we had about details thereafter where I got more intel,


I say 'meaningful' talk. Because as a BS, there were a very small handful of meaningful talks about the A, where I truly had thought of things I wanted to know that I didn't ask on DDay, we sat down and calmly talked about them, I was sad, we moved on. But there were many, many talks or rather moments where I commented on the A, asked questions I already knew answers to, asked questions that didn't HAVE answers, etc. that were not only not meaningful but were completely and totally disruptive to any kind of recovery work.

Now I have all the info, but I still on a bad day want to go back to these little zingers. Don't let myself, but want to. That's all they are, not really efforts to get info I don't have, but attempts to 'remind' H that he F'd up. These absolutely will not let you recover, as long as they persist.

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I am reading your reply to NG and wondering how much UA time are you getting? SUCH a critical, critical element to R.

What are your BH's top EN's? How are you working to meet those and fill his LB?

What are the lovebusters that you struggle with, and how are you working to stop them?

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Originally Posted By: WhoAreWE


I think that my husband is stuck wanting the answer to why I had the affair and how he failed to see that I was such a bad person. The details of the affair are support material for what a bad person I am. He does not accept the MB philosophy that anyone would have an affair given the right circumstances. His current thought is that my fundamental values are flawed and I cannot fix that. I tricked him into thinking I was a good person (like him) but I am not.


I struggled with this A LOT. I put my H on such a high pedestal before finding out about his indiscretions, I bragged about him to everyone (to the point of annoying most of my friends), NO ONE measured up. As far as admiration, I don't know a single woman who admired her H more than me. That all came crashing down. I felt like I didn't know who I had married, to some extent. I had guilt for not knowing what he was capable of.

He used to say that it could have been me, I could have been the one to have a PA, and I would always say, but it WASN'T. I did NOT have sex, I stopped it before it got to that point, even after I knew he had a PA. I am thankful I stopped it but I do know it could have been me, we are all wired for it and clearly I walked a very thing fence.

Still, damage to my admiration for him is done. Of course it is, and I would assume likewise. That is something he must EARN back, and I would assume your H feels the same. If he admired you highly pre A, then I am sure he is trying to redefine the wife he thought he had. And I don't mean that to suggest you are a horrible person, just that his wife on the pedestal was not real, I guess.

NG posted on my thread once about this, as he held his wife in the same regard pre A and went through this too, I will try and find and link it for you.

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I think we had a convo about this on my thread, and were in a little dispute about it. About earning admiration vs giving it freely. It was one thing to give away admiration for doing the dishes, but what I am talking about is admiration for ones character. That is something, I think, after an A you need to earn back, because it has been so damaged.

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Originally Posted By: unwritten
I am reading your reply to NG and wondering how much UA time are you getting? SUCH a critical, critical element to R.

What are your BH's top EN's? How are you working to meet those and fill his LB?

What are the lovebusters that you struggle with, and how are you working to stop them?


unwritten,

Thank you so much for responding and sharing your stories that parallel my husband's.

UA time was in the single digits last week. He was in such a mood that I could not barely handle being the house with him. I think the mood has past.

His top needs: SF, RC, Admiration, O&H
Mine are: Admiration, FC, Affection

I will enthusiastically participate in SF whenever he will. SF seems to be a trigger for him so he is having problems being enthusiastic. We play softball for RC time once or twice a week. We used to be more focused on other people but know we play to be with each other. Admiration is hard because the affair blew the foundations for him believing I admire him. I show my appreciation for everything he does for us.

Him having one thought that the affair showed that "he was not good enough for me" destroys any contributions to SF and Admiration. It is like he is applying a disrespectful judgement to himself for me that kills his Love Bank. I guess I am fighting against my Love Busters of the past.


Me-41 (WW)
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