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After DDay H was very interested in SF, whereas that is not normally the case (eagerly instigating). I loved that. Yes it is HARD to not give in the visuals, etc. but it did help make me feel like he really wanted me (but then you know I have a hangup about that so that may only apply to me). I think it is very important for him to know you want him, in an SF way.

As much as intimacy at this point is critical, sometimes it is the intimacy in sex that made me think of the visuals. The more intimate, the more heartbreaking thinking he shared that with someone else. My fix for that is to have 'porn sex' when I just can't handle the intimacy. Now before everyone jumps on me here, for those of us with SF as a top need, SEX is just as important as the intimacy, and I am not suggesting that to be unimportant, etc. I am suggesting that on those days when it is too raw, and you can't reach that intimacy level without having too much negativity surrounding it, keep it about the sex. That allowed me to still get some of that need met and still be close with my WH, but not have to end with sadness. That was my way of working through it. And the intimacy just came back on its own the further out we got.

(This may not be an area I should give advice on, however.)

I notice O&H. That moved up the ladder for me when I felt H was not being O&H, but once I felt he was it moved back down the ladder of EN's. So, I an wondering if that applies to your BH here too.

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Originally Posted By: unwritten
I think we had a convo about this on my thread, and were in a little dispute about it. About earning admiration vs giving it freely. It was one thing to give away admiration for doing the dishes, but what I am talking about is admiration for ones character. That is something, I think, after an A you need to earn back, because it has been so damaged.


I understand what you are saying. I hope the day to day admiration will give me (and your husband) the strength to recover the marriage. I hope when we are recovered my BS will look at me one day and realize he has the deeper admiration again.

Originally Posted By: unwritten

I struggled with this A LOT. I put my H on such a high pedestal before finding out about his indiscretions, I bragged about him to everyone (to the point of annoying most of my friends), NO ONE measured up. As far as admiration, I don't know a single woman who admired her H more than me.


My H says the same thing. Pre-affair love busters destroyed my feeling of being admired. I'd be curious if your husband knew how much you admired him. I did not. How do you show your "admiration for ones character" so that they know how much you admire them? So they get the love bank deposits?


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Well in my case I went and had an RA, so now we both have to create admiration again (although it seems my admiration for him has decreased, and his for me has increased, throughout this whole mess).

I would say H did NOT know AT THE TIME how much I admired him. I ranted and raved about him to friends, but to him, due to the state of our M, I was always trying to discuss our problems and how to have a better M. I know he took this as he could never please me (not that he tried very hard, just mean he thought I was never happy). So in that respect I don't think he knew.

But once I lost the admiration, the subtle things that would have told him how much I admired him were all of a sudden not so subtle. The admiring way I looked at him, gone. Always wanting to be around him, touch him, etc., gone. Always trying to cater to him and make him happy, gone. You don't know what you got till its gone def applied here. He didn't realize how much I talked about him to others until all of a sudden I didn't even mention I was married (if you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all....). So then it became blatantly obvious what he had, and what he lost. That continues to be very difficult for him, even though I am FAR more admiring today than I was during trickle truth and following DDay.

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As a BS, I would hope to have immunity from accusations of being a wayward-apologist, so here goes....

(Disclaimer: There are cases of addiction/mental pathologies among WSs that are outside this summary.)

The toughest things for many BSs to accept, especially given our anger, hurt, resentment, doubt, and...hopelessness...is that before the WS went outside, there were gaps and failures in the marriage structure. Over and over, it comes out, almost parenthetically:

- the BH who did little to provide FS for his family, leaving the main burden to the (eventual) WW

- the BW who admits to "gaining a little weight - 70 lbs"

- either gender who finally realizes that exclusive attention to a job, a hobby, a sport, the children deprived the spouse of that necessary attention

- similarly, the spouse who makes no effort to participate as the other starts to find enthralling past-times alone, be it children's sports, or social media, etc

- the BH who admits he was too strict/judgmental/authoritarian

- the BW who now admits SF (quantity, variety, or enthusiasm) had become a distant memory

- combinations of all the above, and others. (And if I missed anyone, I'll catch them next time.)

Some BSs make the connection very quickly. Some never get the picture. THIS IS NOT BLAMING THEM! It's just an acknowledgement that the bell curve is almost always present.

So the first note of the newbie thread has, "Married XX years...the usual problems such as (fill-in), but all-in-all I thought we were pretty good......" Well "pretty good" might have been sufficient when these folks were around but not today. Mr and Mrs Gothic lived in a world much less coddling and understanding of the wayward choice. (No, I'm not going into my version of "why". My codger-hood starts tomorrow, not today.)

The mystified BS does not get that "the usual problems" today carry worse impacts to the marriage. A homogeneous workforce, the existence of asynchronous, essentially private communication (in multiple forms) virtually 24/7, and the burden of the likely disjointed marital-continuity of the previous supporters of any one marriage - parents, siblings, all either foster inappropriate linkages or fail to prevent them.

Way back when, as a newbie, I was railing against my fate as someone posted here the Top Six EN's for Women, and I could honestly state that I frickin' NAILED all but one - intimate communication, highly available. Someone (MB?) pulled me off my high horse by saying (paraphrased), "Yeah, moron, but the one you missed was easily NUMBER ONE!"

All that said, then, WAW, you're going to have to find a way to explain to BH that those ENs OM supplied to you will entirely be sourced within the marital union, because you two will see to it. Chloroforming him, tying him to a chair, propping his eyes open and paging through the MB program is likely extreme.

The ugly part of this, WAW, is that you will have to be brutally honest with yourself about what you got from POSOM. And then you will have to explain that to FBH. If he were here, we could buffer it for you.

If he does not yet buy into the universality of the wayward impulse, you might have to trade, "I was weak and flawed in my need for......", for "I was evil." (Bride and I did this without MB, and it was not fun. Some of the things I uttered during that unguided exploration... puke)

For now, I'm done. Both fingers are throbbing, and the dog needs walking. If this helps, good. If not, well, a smarter poster should be along soon!

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Originally Posted By: unwritten
After DDay H was very interested in SF, whereas that is not normally the case (eagerly instigating). I loved that. Yes it is HARD to not give in the visuals, etc. but it did help make me feel like he really wanted me (but then you know I have a hangup about that so that may only apply to me). I think it is very important for him to know you want him, in an SF way.

As much as intimacy at this point is critical, sometimes it is the intimacy in sex that made me think of the visuals. The more intimate, the more heartbreaking thinking he shared that with someone else. My fix for that is to have 'porn sex' when I just can't handle the intimacy. Now before everyone jumps on me here, for those of us with SF as a top need, SEX is just as important as the intimacy, and I am not suggesting that to be unimportant, etc. I am suggesting that on those days when it is too raw, and you can't reach that intimacy level without having too much negativity surrounding it, keep it about the sex. That allowed me to still get some of that need met and still be close with my WH, but not have to end with sadness. That was my way of working through it. And the intimacy just came back on its own the further out we got.

(This may not be an area I should give advice on, however.)

I notice O&H. That moved up the ladder for me when I felt H was not being O&H, but once I felt he was it moved back down the ladder of EN's. So, I an wondering if that applies to your BH here too.


I think in my husband's case your advise on SF is very applicable. He needs to enjoy SF for SF and let the intimacy come with time. He is pressuring himself.

O&H is generally important to my husband. I think it was one of my biggest trouble areas. I never felt safe saying what I felt. I am working hard on saying what I think without worrying about the judgement that may come. It is just a momentary judgement but not being upfront leads to long term issues.

There was a thread where the man's girlfriend was a "pleaser". She did everything to make him happy. Then she had an affair and he still defended her as being so "perfect". I feel in some way that I was trying maintain a "perfect" image.


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NG,

Thank you for taking so much time to write. I could definitely use the encouragement this week to get my forward traction.

Originally Posted By: NeverGuessed

Some BSs make the connection very quickly. Some never get the picture. THIS IS NOT BLAMING THEM! It's just an acknowledgement that the bell curve is almost always present.


My BS definitely feels that I am blaming him for the bad choices I made. But I am not (anymore). Nor do I accept the blame for any bad choices he makes.

Originally Posted By: NeverGuessed

All that said, then, WAW, you're going to have to find a way to explain to BH that those ENs OM supplied to you will entirely be sourced within the marital union, because you two will see to it. Chloroforming him, tying him to a chair, propping his eyes open and paging through the MB program is likely extreme.


Compared to that, demanding he do the MB program sounds like a gentle request. He has read a lot of MB but will not accept some fundamentals, such as, anyone could have an affair.

Originally Posted By: NeverGuessed

The ugly part of this, WAW, is that you will have to be brutally honest with yourself about what you got from POSOM. And then you will have to explain that to FBH. If he were here, we could buffer it for you.


I think I see what I got from POSOM. Admiration, Affection, and Intimate Conversation. It was all superficial but it filled my Love Bank. BS says if that was all I wanted from POSOM then it would not have become a PA. I keep asking myself, is that true? Is all I ever wanted was SF?

Originally Posted By: NeverGuessed

If he does not yet buy into the universality of the wayward impulse, you might have to trade, "I was weak and flawed in my need for......", for "I was evil." (Bride and I did this without MB, and it was not fun. Some of the things I uttered during that unguided exploration... puke)


I am good with saying I was "I was weak and flawed ...". Heck, I'll even say "I was evil". I just refuse to say that I am now and I will protect us from me ever being that way again.

Originally Posted By: NeverGuessed

For now, I'm done. Both fingers are throbbing, and the dog needs walking. If this helps, good. If not, well, a smarter poster should be along soon!


I think I got the superstars with you and unwritten.


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It was all superficial but it filled my Love Bank.

That, my friend, is an oxymoron. If those three things filled your Love Bank, the were NOT superficial; they were gaping needs that your boundaries were insufficient to withstand.

I think I see what I got from POSOM. Admiration, Affection, and Intimate Conversation...BS says if that was all I wanted from POSOM then it would not have become a PA. I keep asking myself, is that true? Is all I ever wanted was SF?

You forgot the "negotiation" (covert though it might have been) between you and POSOM. You wanted Ad, Af, and IC, and found a source with him. You came to rely on that supply, and were so grateful for their delivery from him, that your Love Bank swayed you to do what would have been previously unimaginable to keep them coming.

While not necessarily a truism, it has proven to be useful here to recall this piece of the Infidelity Algebra:

EA + Time + Opportunity = PA

I do not recall if you and FBH have completed the ENQs. They will be vital in helping you both keep your marriage safe and flourishing.

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Originally Posted By: unwritten

Well in my case I went and had an RA, so now we both have to create admiration again (although it seems my admiration for him has decreased, and his for me has increased, throughout this whole mess).

I would say H did NOT know AT THE TIME how much I admired him. I ranted and raved about him to friends, but to him, due to the state of our M, I was always trying to discuss our problems and how to have a better M. I know he took this as he could never please me (not that he tried very hard, just mean he thought I was never happy). So in that respect I don't think he knew.

You don't know what you got till its gone def applied here. He didn't realize how much I talked about him to others until all of a sudden I didn't even mention I was married (if you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all....). So then it became blatantly obvious what he had, and what he lost. That continues to be very difficult for him, even though I am FAR more admiring today than I was during trickle truth and following DDay.


It seems that we have lived parallel lives but on opposite sides of the situations.

I find that I am holding on to the admiration that my husband used to have. He has told me so many things about how he felt about me. It makes me cry when I think that I could not see it even though it should have been so obvious.


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Originally Posted By: NeverGuessed
It was all superficial but it filled my Love Bank.

That, my friend, is an oxymoron. If those three things filled your Love Bank, the were NOT superficial; they were gaping needs that your boundaries were insufficient to withstand.

I think I see what I got from POSOM. Admiration, Affection, and Intimate Conversation...BS says if that was all I wanted from POSOM then it would not have become a PA. I keep asking myself, is that true? Is all I ever wanted was SF?

You forgot the "negotiation" (covert though it might have been) between you and POSOM. You wanted Ad, Af, and IC, and found a source with him. You came to rely on that supply, and were so grateful for their delivery from him, that your Love Bank swayed you to do what would have been previously unimaginable to keep them coming.


WAW, I doubt you were just looking for sex. Yes, some WS's do commit adultery just for the sex, but most garden-variety affairs begin because we "innocently" allow someone else to meet our needs and begin to make LB$ deposits. I wasn't looking for sex. broken and I had a darn good track record, SF speaking, with my only complaint being that while the quality was good, the quantity was lacking. Within a mere couple of months after seeing POSOM in person again after 20+ years I put out. The attention, the affection, the admiration were intoxicating and I sold my soul to keep it coming.

And you aren't evil. Yes, your actions were. Adultery is evil. But as I said on XVY's thread, few of us deserve the pedestals we are placed on by others. broken has called me evil many times since d-day. I'm working on not believing that about myself anymore.


FWW

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Originally Posted By: WhoAreWE
I find that I am holding on to the admiration that my husband used to have. He has told me so many things about how he felt about me. It makes me cry when I think that I could not see it even though it should have been so obvious.


There. That is what happens when we don't know how to meet each others' needs in the ways that resonate with us. Yes, he felt all of these things about you, and I'm sure in a lot of ways he *was* showing you how he felt - perhaps by working 40+ hours a week, taking care of the yard, not going out with his buddies on the weekends...but those actions and/or things were not filling the EN's most important to you - in other words, they weren't making huge deposits in your LB$. Perhaps you would have rather just sat and talked with him, or taken a walk together around your neighborhood, or had him suprise you with love notes tucked into your sock drawer. Point is, if we don't know what each others' needs are, we can't meet them appropriately....so we might be spending lots of effort, but making very few deposits. I think often we try to love our spouses the way WE need to be loved, meeting the needs that are most important to US, while missing the mark on what is most important to THEM.

That's where the ENQ will come in. Is he willing to take it?


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Originally Posted By: NeverGuessed

While not necessarily a truism, it has proven to be useful here to recall this piece of the Infidelity Algebra:

EA + Time + Opportunity = PA


I must have missed that Algebra class. Or maybe I was never very good remembering formulas.

Originally Posted By: NeverGuessed

I do not recall if you and FBH have completed the ENQs. They will be vital in helping you both keep your marriage safe and flourishing.


I find the ENQ to be an advanced questionnaire. If I knew myself well enough to answer those questions I wouldn't be here. My BS thinks I went to POSOM with instructions on how to make me happy (like an ENQ) but that I refused to do that for BS. If I had actually known the holes that needed to be filled I would have done something about it. I have spend the last year learning about myself and I still have so much to understand. I would NEVER have said I needed affection or intimate conversation. Heck, I thought I didn't need anything from anybody. Boy was I wrong.


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Do you have HNHN? Are you reading the chapter for each EN that corresponds to the questionairre, and using that to decipher whether it is an important need for you? (Dr Harley also gives a condensed version on audio, I think, which is what is included in our home program materials).

This was very helpful for us. We filled out the questionairre's a long time ago, then did the ENQ again using the audio as a real time guide to make sure that we were understanding each EN correctly.

I remember for SF for instance, Dr H gave specific examples that would indicate it was a strong need, rather than confusing it with affection, etc.

Bring your questions to the board and maybe we can help sort it out. I think figuring out what your EN's are, are very important in terms of creating an affair proof environment.

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WPG,

Thank you for your postings. I fear my H is labeling himself "broken", like your H, and will not accept that he can be fixed.

Originally Posted By: wulffpack_girl
[quote=WhoAreWE]
That's where the ENQ will come in. Is he willing to take it?


As I said to NG. The ENQ has puzzled me every time I have looked at it. I am almost at the point were I might be able to fill it out. I can most certainly not give my husband a hard time about not meeting my emotional needs when I never knew (or admitted) I had any.


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Is your BH willing to fill it out?

I think more important at this stage is knowing what his EN's are so you can work on his very damaged LB.

I know you listed them, just wondering if he decided on these or if you were guessing, which many spouses have to do before getting a reluctant spouse on board.

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Originally Posted By: unwritten
Do you have HNHN? Are you reading the chapter for each EN that corresponds to the questionairre, and using that to decipher whether it is an important need for you? (Dr Harley also gives a condensed version on audio, I think, which is what is included in our home program materials).


I have HNHN, SAA, LB. If I read those books as much as I read the forum I might get through them. I really wish Dr. H had an electronic version. I haven't read a book in decades. An audio version would work for me too. The home program is like the books for me... I won't use it. Does the program come in a download only format? Getting a set of disks reminds me of the teach yourself Spanish sets that I would buy and never use.

Originally Posted By: unwritten

This was very helpful for us. We filled out the questionairre's a long time ago, then did the ENQ again using the audio as a real time guide to make sure that we were understanding each EN correctly.

I remember for SF for instance, Dr H gave specific examples that would indicate it was a strong need, rather than confusing it with affection, etc.

Bring your questions to the board and maybe we can help sort it out. I think figuring out what your EN's are, are very important in terms of creating an affair proof environment.


I feel like over the last month I have gotten a pretty good idea of my emotional needs. I think I know my H and I think I used to meet them pretty well. Now he is not too open to me meeting them but that will take time.

One of his needs is actually a joke I see here often. He has a definite need for "Intellectual Conversation" rather than "Intimate Conversation". Honestly, I do not satisfy this very well. But I suspect it is very important to him. There have been many times that I have been concerned by the glow around him when he is having an intellectually stimulating conversation with another woman. He is not much about talking about his day but he wants to talk about the "world" events of the day.


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Originally Posted By: unwritten
Is your BH willing to fill it out?

I think more important at this stage is knowing what his EN's are so you can work on his very damaged LB.

I know you listed them, just wondering if he decided on these or if you were guessing, which many spouses have to do before getting a reluctant spouse on board.


I am just guessing for my reluctant spouse.


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Originally Posted By: WhoAreWE

I think that my husband is stuck wanting the answer to why I had the affair and how he failed to see that I was such a bad person. The details of the affair are support material for what a bad person I am.



So he should just do without them until you think his behaviour is more understanding?

Really WAW, that is not your call. You owe him this truth and he can respond any way he chooses.

If he decides he doesn't want to be with you, at least you will have enabled him to go without any gnawing unanswered questions.

Gnawing, unanswered questions are what keeps a BS up at night.

He needs the truth. You created this thirst for knowledge and now you withold the water in case some spills on you.

I do think you are a good person. Or rather are trying your hardest to be one in this very paainful situation.

So in order to be one I would suggest you have to put his need for the truth ahead of the pain the truth causes you. Ahead of the bad consequences it may have for you.

If he decides he doesn't want to be with you after hearing the truth, that is a consequence of the A. One you have to take on the chin.

But please don't choose silence to save your own skin over his sanity.


What would you do if you were not afraid?

"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.

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Originally Posted By: indiegirl
Originally Posted By: WhoAreWE

I think that my husband is stuck wanting the answer to why I had the affair and how he failed to see that I was such a bad person. The details of the affair are support material for what a bad person I am.



So he should just do without them until you think his behaviour is more understanding?

Really WAW, that is not your call. You owe him this truth and he can respond any way he chooses.

If he decides he doesn't want to be with you, at least you will have enabled him to go without any gnawing unanswered questions.

Gnawing, unanswered questions are what keeps a BS up at night.

He needs the truth. You created this thirst for knowledge and now you withold the water in case some spills on you.

I do think you are a good person. Or rather are trying your hardest to be one in this very paainful situation.

So in order to be one I would suggest you have to put his need for the truth ahead of the pain the truth causes you. Ahead of the bad consequences it may have for you.

If he decides he doesn't want to be with you after hearing the truth, that is a consequence of the A. One you have to take on the chin.

But please don't choose silence to save your own skin over his sanity.



It is difficult to talk to someone who is not listening. I could probably tell the story of my affair to you and you could slowly pull the details out. When I talk to my husband, he attacks every statement I make and says that I am wrong about how I felt at the time. My truth does not make sense because it does not match his belief that I plotted the A from the first time I met POSOM. It doesn't match his belief that I was hunting for an AP ever since we were married. He wants me to admit that his view of the affair is the truth but it is not.


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Originally Posted By: WhoAreWE
Originally Posted By: indiegirl
Originally Posted By: WhoAreWE

I think that my husband is stuck wanting the answer to why I had the affair and how he failed to see that I was such a bad person. The details of the affair are support material for what a bad person I am.



So he should just do without them until you think his behaviour is more understanding?

Really WAW, that is not your call. You owe him this truth and he can respond any way he chooses.

If he decides he doesn't want to be with you, at least you will have enabled him to go without any gnawing unanswered questions.

Gnawing, unanswered questions are what keeps a BS up at night.

He needs the truth. You created this thirst for knowledge and now you withold the water in case some spills on you....



It is difficult to talk to someone who is not listening. I could probably tell the story of my affair to you and you could slowly pull the details out. When I talk to my husband, he attacks every statement I make and says that I am wrong about how I felt at the time. My truth does not make sense because it does not match his belief that I plotted the A from the first time I met POSOM. It doesn't match his belief that I was hunting for an AP ever since we were married. He wants me to admit that his view of the affair is the truth but it is not.



I'll wade in here, because I think - in light of some of what NG and WAW have posted, and in light of my own experience - that I understand what's happening. Please correct me if I'm wrong, WAW - but I'm thinking that the information your BH is asking for is not necessarily details of the adultery - he is asking questions in the vein of "why did you/how could you".

If the BS discounts Dr. H's theories as to why affairs happen, then the WS's explanations of "why/how" are going to be insufficient. In my case, I think even before MB, broken accepted the concept that poor boundaries + unmet needs + allowing someone else to meet needs = affair, when he thought I'd "only" had an EA. However, once he knew the truth about my adultery, that in combination with my persistent lying was enough to make the "she is evil" theory outweigh anything else.

I don't know - am I on the mark here, or way off?


FWW

"Snow and adolescence are the only problems that disappear if you ignore them long enough." ~ Earl Wilson
Joined: Jun 2011
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Have you written out a complete time line of events and all details of what happened?

Have you asked your husband to put down additioanl questions in writing so you can answer them in full?

What other efforts have you put into giving him the truth?

If he is very resentful and finding it hard to listen to a spoken report, then what else can you do to help him?

If he is finding it hard to believe your version of events, well that is only to be expected, particularly considering you are still hiding the truth. In fact BSs (all spouses in fact) are advised on MB to be wary of taking their spouse's sole word for everything and showing trust when it isnt backed up by proof.

Usually when a BS finds a version of events difficult to believe, a polygraph is offered.

If your spouse believes you went out with the intention to commit this affair, well that is his pregrogative. Why should he trust you?

If he were on these boards I would tell him that an affair is rarely pre-meditated, but that sometimes it is. And sometimes that very thing does happen, so why shouldnt he be wary of it?

I would advise him to stick with the plans, but I surely would not judge him for his beliefs, or be disrespectful of them as they spring from his betrayal.

Giving him the truth can only help him with his struggle to see you as a truthful person, SURELY.


What would you do if you were not afraid?

"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.

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