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Originally Posted By: wulffpack_girl
Originally Posted By: WhoAreWE
Originally Posted By: indiegirl
Originally Posted By: WhoAreWE

I think that my husband is stuck wanting the answer to why I had the affair and how he failed to see that I was such a bad person. The details of the affair are support material for what a bad person I am.



So he should just do without them until you think his behaviour is more understanding?

Really WAW, that is not your call. You owe him this truth and he can respond any way he chooses.

If he decides he doesn't want to be with you, at least you will have enabled him to go without any gnawing unanswered questions.

Gnawing, unanswered questions are what keeps a BS up at night.

He needs the truth. You created this thirst for knowledge and now you withold the water in case some spills on you....



It is difficult to talk to someone who is not listening. I could probably tell the story of my affair to you and you could slowly pull the details out. When I talk to my husband, he attacks every statement I make and says that I am wrong about how I felt at the time. My truth does not make sense because it does not match his belief that I plotted the A from the first time I met POSOM. It doesn't match his belief that I was hunting for an AP ever since we were married. He wants me to admit that his view of the affair is the truth but it is not.



I'll wade in here, because I think - in light of some of what NG and WAW have posted, and in light of my own experience - that I understand what's happening. Please correct me if I'm wrong, WAW - but I'm thinking that the information your BH is asking for is not necessarily details of the adultery - he is asking questions in the vein of "why did you/how could you".

If the BS discounts Dr. H's theories as to why affairs happen, then the WS's explanations of "why/how" are going to be insufficient. In my case, I think even before MB, broken accepted the concept that poor boundaries + unmet needs + allowing someone else to meet needs = affair, when he thought I'd "only" had an EA. However, once he knew the truth about my adultery, that in combination with my persistent lying was enough to make the "she is evil" theory outweigh anything else.

I don't know - am I on the mark here, or way off?


Explaining the why/how is an impossible task but WAW is unwilling to give the specific details of What/where/when until she persuades her BH her motives of why/how were not evil or premeditated.

My point was simply that she needs to put that to one side and provide him with the details of where/what/when immediately.

If he considers her to be evil and premediated, she can disagree, and so can we, but she must accept the consequences of changing his view of her.



No one can tell this BH what to think or feel. It is also awful to use his resentment as a reason to keep the details secret.

The details MUST be revealed regardless. It is the ony just and honourable thing to do.

Regardless of his reaction.

If his unchangeable view is that cheaters are evil people than WAW must give him the truth AND accept his decision that he thinks her evil.

It is very disrespectful not to allow him his own view on this matter.


Last edited by indiegirl; 09/12/12 09:29 AM.

What would you do if you were not afraid?

"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.

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Originally Posted By: wulffpack_girl
If the BS discounts Dr. H's theories as to why affairs happen, then the WS's explanations of "why/how" are going to be insufficient.


There is a vicious circle here in that the BH wants WaW's reasons in her own words - not Dr Harley's theories.

Now she has protested that whatever she says is disbelieved. Well of course it is because she hasnt yet been honest about the basic details, yet.

Only a fool would believe someone who is still hiding the truth.

If WAW were to provide all the facts and the full and complete truth of where/what/when then she will have made herself into someone slightly more worthy of being believed. But she will still be someone who lied to this man quite extensively and he will wince at the idea of believing her and being made a fool of again.

If she follows her revelation of the details with consistently believable actions and proofs of honesty, then the BH is in a position to believe her theories as to how/why.

Putting her (now believable account) next to Dr Harly's theory's, he will see that MB theories came to pass in RL in his WW's example.

WaW believes Dr Harley because she has lived through his theories, and knows what is true and what isn't.

Her BH is still being kept in the dark and thus does not know what to beleive.

Right now he cannot be expected to believe her, or Dr Harley.

Last edited by indiegirl; 09/12/12 09:31 AM.

What would you do if you were not afraid?

"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.

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Originally Posted By: WhoAreWE
O&H is generally important to my husband.


As a BS with a high O&H need I must warn you you are draining his lovebank at a most rapid rate by refusing to be honest. If you have a high O&H need, it is deeply hurtful to be distrusted and told a patronising, cleaned up version of events.


Originally Posted By: WhoAreWE
I think it was one of my biggest trouble areas. I never felt safe saying what I felt. I am working hard on saying what I think without worrying about the judgement that may come. It is just a momentary judgement but not being upfront leads to long term issues.

There was a thread where the man's girlfriend was a "pleaser". She did everything to make him happy. Then she had an affair and he still defended her as being so "perfect". I feel in some way that I was trying maintain a "perfect" image.


Yes!!! I really want this lightbulb to come on for you.

We do NOT have the entitlement to give our spouses false, edited, misleading information.

We are not allowed to hide the truth.

When we love someone we give them the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth - and let the chips fall where they may.


What would you do if you were not afraid?

"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.

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I was thinking he had the details Indie, but I very well may have misread - in any event, if he lacks details, then sit down and give him a timeline. broken and I went through cell phone records, bank statements, and credit card statements together along with time sheets from work and my calendars. I also ended up getting a poly done.

One mistake I made was when broken first asked for a chronology of my adultery, I wrote more about how I felt throughout the affair. What he wanted was the specifics on dates and places. I'd gotten the name wrong of one of the restaurants I met POSOM at - I knew where it was but had the name of the place wrong - so when he searched on the internet for the place, of course it didn't exist and he believed it was more evidence of lying. You must be patient as he asks for the details, and do not become defensive in any way, but if in any way you feel threatened or unsafe, then the two of you need to take a break.

Even at one year out, I had forgotten a lot of the minutiae - I couldn't remember what POSOM and I had talked about on a particular day, for example. However, we could still piece together a timeline that allowed broken to pinpoint the dates and times that physical meetings took place. The poly was my effort to prove the number of times sexual contact occurred. Moot point for us now as I have no marriage left, but I totally understand why broken didn't believe me - as I now look back and see how irrational I had become during my adultery I wouldn't have believed me either.

But yes, details first. Your BH will have to come to accept the premises of Dr. H to wrap his mind around the why/how, though. Some BS's can never accept that, and will forever view the FWS as evil. And that is their choice, and their right...and when you think about it, it's what we deserve...it's only by grace - that we do NOT deserve - that we are given forgiveness and a second chance.

t/j...For some reason this thread is triggering me this morning...not your fault, WAW, I'll just chalk it up to me having a wierd morning.

Last edited by wulffpack_girl; 09/12/12 10:02 AM. Reason: added info

FWW

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Originally Posted By: wulffpack_girl
I was thinking he had the details Indie, but I very well may have misread - in any event, if he lacks details, then sit down and give him a timeline. broken and I went through cell phone records, bank statements, and credit card statements together along with time sheets from work and my calendars. I also ended up getting a poly done.


Wonderful tips, WPG, just what the doctor ordered (literally). Sorry this is triggering you, I do think you are a beacon for many WWs.


What would you do if you were not afraid?

"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.

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Originally Posted By: indiegirl

If WAW were to provide all the facts and the full and complete truth of where/what/when then she will have made herself into someone slightly more worthy of being believed. But she will still be someone who lied to this man quite extensively and he will wince at the idea of believing her and being made a fool of again.


My BS has the where/what/when.


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Originally Posted By: indiegirl
Originally Posted By: WhoAreWE
O&H is generally important to my husband.


As a BS with a high O&H need I must warn you you are draining his lovebank at a most rapid rate by refusing to be honest. If you have a high O&H need, it is deeply hurtful to be distrusted and told a patronising, cleaned up version of events.


I was trying to say regardless of being a BS, O&H was important to my husband. That is another reason the A hurt so much.

Originally Posted By: indiegirl

Originally Posted By: WhoAreWE
I think it was one of my biggest trouble areas. I never felt safe saying what I felt. I am working hard on saying what I think without worrying about the judgement that may come. It is just a momentary judgement but not being upfront leads to long term issues.

There was a thread where the man's girlfriend was a "pleaser". She did everything to make him happy. Then she had an affair and he still defended her as being so "perfect". I feel in some way that I was trying maintain a "perfect" image.


Yes!!! I really want this lightbulb to come on for you.

We do NOT have the entitlement to give our spouses false, edited, misleading information.

We are not allowed to hide the truth.

When we love someone we give them the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth - and let the chips fall where they may.


Yes and when we love someone we should not have AO, DJ, and SD. Those behaviors breed fear. That is why I am focusing on working through love busters.


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When did this happen? You said you did not want to be retriggered by those details?

So, OK, does he believe the details? Are those questions answered in full to his satisfaction? Is a polygraph required? Has one been offered?

There have also been WSs who have attempted to prove their veracity with a post nup which states they would get nothing if another infidelity happened.

Right now your H fears you ARE a bad person who will hurt him again. He needs proof to the contrary.

WFG's tips re going through accounts/statements etc may also help if he does not beleive the what/where/when

If he DOES believe the what/where/when but does not accept the rationale of how/why, is anything other than evilness, that's his call.

He's not going anywhere right now though, which suggests you have an opportunity to prove yourself with future actions.

What you do with that opportunity is up to you. I would suggest providing as much truth, and proof of that of that truth as humanly possible.

And accepting his right to have the judgement he does until proved otherwise.


What would you do if you were not afraid?

"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.

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WAW, there's a scene in a Mel Gibson movie where the bad guy has him bound and soaking wet, and is planning to torture him with a car battery and jumper cables. Villain says, "We're going to do this until you tell me all that you know." And Hero says, "Well, that's real bad because I don't know nothing!"

It may be time for you and FBH to settle on your taking a polygraph. There are risks involved, especially given the mind's treatment of "repressed" memories such as you are claiming. Without the kind of summary and terminal accord on what information FBH wants vs what you are able to supply, though, the jumper cables will stay busy. (And, NO, I'm not suggesting FBH is a villain!)

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Originally Posted By: WhoAreWE
[Yes and when we love someone we should not have AO, DJ, and SD. Those behaviors breed fear. That is why I am focusing on working through love busters.


So glad you said this, because these:

Originally Posted By: WhoAreWE
. I fear my H is labeling himself "broken", like your H, and will not accept that he can be fixed.


Originally Posted By: WhoAreWE
He wants me to admit that his view of the affair is the truth but it is not.



Sound very much like DJs and SDs. There is no need for him to accept anything. It is unlikely he wants you to be evil.

If you let go of the rope in this tug of war the two of you are having on who should accept what, you may get further.

When he says he doesnt have to accept your reasoning, or MB, - agree with him. Respect his right not to have accept one word of it.


What would you do if you were not afraid?

"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.

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Originally Posted By: indiegirl
When did this happen? You said you did not want to be retriggered by those details?

So, OK, does he believe the details? Are those questions answered in full to his satisfaction? Is a polygraph required? Has one been offered?

There have also been WSs who have attempted to prove their veracity with a post nup which states they would get nothing if another infidelity happened.

Right now your H fears you ARE a bad person who will hurt him again. He needs proof to the contrary.

WFG's tips re going through accounts/statements etc may also help if he does not beleive the what/where/when

If he DOES believe the what/where/when but does not accept the rationale of how/why, is anything other than evilness, that's his call.

He's not going anywhere right now though, which suggests you have an opportunity to prove yourself with future actions.

What you do with that opportunity is up to you. I would suggest providing as much truth, and proof of that of that truth as humanly possible.

And accepting his right to have the judgement he does until proved otherwise.


My BS knows more than me. He says "you said...". I say "then that is what happened". I am not going back to relive the moments just to confirm what I said.

There was a thread where a new BS poster asked a FWW if she ever thought back to the "good" moments of the affair. A vet popped on to say you should never ask a FWW on this forum to do that. My BS is constantly asking me to go back and remember how good I felt at this point or that point in the affair. I do not see the value in that for him or for me.


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Originally Posted By: WhoAreWE
Originally Posted By: indiegirl
When did this happen? You said you did not want to be retriggered by those details?

So, OK, does he believe the details? Are those questions answered in full to his satisfaction? Is a polygraph required? Has one been offered?

There have also been WSs who have attempted to prove their veracity with a post nup which states they would get nothing if another infidelity happened.

Right now your H fears you ARE a bad person who will hurt him again. He needs proof to the contrary.

WFG's tips re going through accounts/statements etc may also help if he does not beleive the what/where/when

If he DOES believe the what/where/when but does not accept the rationale of how/why, is anything other than evilness, that's his call.

He's not going anywhere right now though, which suggests you have an opportunity to prove yourself with future actions.

What you do with that opportunity is up to you. I would suggest providing as much truth, and proof of that of that truth as humanly possible.

And accepting his right to have the judgement he does until proved otherwise.


My BS knows more than me. He says "you said...". I say "then that is what happened". I am not going back to relive the moments just to confirm what I said.

There was a thread where a new BS poster asked a FWW if she ever thought back to the "good" moments of the affair. A vet popped on to say you should never ask a FWW on this forum to do that. My BS is constantly asking me to go back and remember how good I felt at this point or that point in the affair. I do not see the value in that for him or for me.



Yes that was Pepperband, and she was 100 per cent right.

But a BS is not going to let this go when they dont understand/believe. He says "you said" as though he does not believe you.

He is probably using a cross examining technique to try and see if your answers are consistent each time he asks. Because he needs proof.

Proof, like a poly could help stop this need. Do you have any emails/texts in which you described your feelings during the A? Has everything like accounts, messages, letters been given to your H?

A BS can't drop it until he has the full story.


What would you do if you were not afraid?

"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.

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WAW, there's some other things that would bear repeating here.

The BS drives the recovery bus; the FWS provides the power. That's shorthand for what your BS says he needs, he needs. You have no say in whether it's unreasonable, or if your feel you cannot bring yourself to give it (again). If he were here, we could work with him as we have with other BSs in the past, counselling him that eventually the BS will have to admit that any details still missing are not material to the question at hand. We would explain; we would advise; we would counsel; we would console. What we would NOT do is DECIDE - for him - that he has all that he needs. If WE as uninvolved parties would not do that, my friend, you certainly have no standing to do so.

You, however, ARE here, so we can explain, advise, counsel, and console you that all of this pain-flushing discussion is NOTHING more than that portion of JC that you must provide. Any negotiation on that serves only to raise FBH's defensive barriers that it is very much to your benefit to tear down.

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Originally Posted By: NeverGuessed
WAW, there's some other things that would bear repeating here.

The BS drives the recovery bus; the FWS provides the power. That's shorthand for what your BS says he needs, he needs. You have no say in whether it's unreasonable, or if your feel you cannot bring yourself to give it (again). If he were here, we could work with him as we have with other BSs in the past, counselling him that eventually the BS will have to admit that any details still missing are not material to the question at hand. We would explain; we would advise; we would counsel; we would console. What we would NOT do is DECIDE - for him - that he has all that he needs. If WE as uninvolved parties would not do that, my friend, you certainly have no standing to do so.

You, however, ARE here, so we can explain, advise, counsel, and console you that all of this pain-flushing discussion is NOTHING more than that portion of JC that you must provide. Any negotiation on that serves only to raise FBH's defensive barriers that it is very much to your benefit to tear down.


x2. well said.


What would you do if you were not afraid?

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"My BS knows more than me. He says "you said...". I say "then that is what happened". I am not going back to relive the moments just to confirm what I said."


This your BH needing to see if his dectective work, what you answered the first time, matches up when he asked you about that detail again.

This is a BH working to gain the truth, confirm that what he has been told is the truth, rebuilding the broken trust.

Trust will never be rebuilt if the BH feels the WW is holding back knowledge about the affair.


"There was a thread where a new BS poster asked a FWW if she ever thought back to the "good" moments of the affair. A vet popped on to say you should never ask a FWW on this forum to do that. My BS is constantly asking me to go back and remember how good I felt at this point or that point in the affair. I do not see the value in that for him or for me."


The BH is searching to see if his WW is holding back anything about the affair.

How ever this is a double edged sword. WW is trying to maintain NC with the OM to end her addiction to the OM.

I don't think there is any addiction treatment program that wants the addict to recall the good feelings their drug of choice gave them, in this case the OM.

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Originally Posted By: WhoAreWE
My BS is constantly asking me to go back and remember how good I felt at this point or that point in the affair. I do not see the value in that for him or for me.



Speaking for myself, I was haunted by the possibility that my WH might be holding on to happy memories of the affair and OW.


HAUNTED.


You are right that there is no value to discuss your feelings during the affair because it was a fantasy. A cruel and hurtful fantasy.


It is, however, valuable for him to see and "believe" that you no longer hold on to any fond memories of OM and the time you stole from BH to be with OM.


ME: BW
HIM: FWH
Married 18 yrs
DDay 09/2008 and 12/2008

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And nobody would advise the BH to do that, if he were here.

However if he needs it, he needs it and WAW has to play the hand she's been dealt. Being stubborn and refusing his requests is making matters worse.

She should be honest, if she feels she is being triggered, of course. She can also respond with respectful requests of her own... starting with 'How would you feel'

How would you feel....if I wrote this down for posterity to prevent us going over it so many times

How would you feel....if I was to provide better proof of what happened rather than going over it so much?

How would you feel... about us discussing options that would reduce the amount of talking about the A?

How would you feel.... about giving me a better idea of what you need when you ask me these questions? What would make you feel it is at now at rest?

It's going to be a long, hard slog for WAW. But it's all part of JC and she has steel herself.


What would you do if you were not afraid?

"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.

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Originally Posted By: indiegirl

Proof, like a poly could help stop this need. Do you have any emails/texts in which you described your feelings during the A? Has everything like accounts, messages, letters been given to your H?


Fortunately or unfortunately, there are no records associated with the affair. That is one of the things my BS uses as proof that the A was so well thought out, that I left no trail. My AP was a co-worker, our conversations we inappropriate, our e-mail was work related.


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I needed it. I NEEDED to not only know that I had all the details, but to feel that H would do anything in his power to give them to me, and do whatever I needed to move on, regardless of how uncomfortable it was for him or how I reacted to it.

If he had not been willing to give me any info I asked, or said that it was 'too painful' for HIM to drudge that up in his memory, well, read page one of my thread, the one where I talk about the little devil that had run amuck with my life....I would still be on that page.

And if my efforts to obtain info would come back with any resistance on his part, I can guarentee you a few AO's and a host of other equally evil lovebusters would have spewed forth from thy lips.

My point is, you are in a cycle that needs to be broken. You fear being completely and willingly O&H with your BH, because when you are (with hesitation) he love busts all over the place, and therefore you are gun shy to be O&H with him, which makes him resentful and want to love bust all over the place....

Someone needs to be the hero and break through that cycle. That someone needs to be you WAW.

As Indie said, ask him what he needs to feel like he has all of the information he needs. Give him WHATEVER HE NEEDS honestly and enthusiastically, regardless of what his response will be. You can get through that, and there is a road to recovery on the other side.

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Originally Posted By: TheRoad

I don't think there is any addiction treatment program that wants the addict to recall the good feelings their drug of choice gave them, in this case the OM.


If I was an alcoholic I think my husband would task me to drink one drink a week to prove that I had my addiction under control.


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