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Originally Posted By: WhoAreWE
The only thing I have to fear is fear itself. And it is eating me alive. I have to get past my fear of talking to him. I have my own defensive barrier that I am afraid to take down.


But you have implied you are afraid of HIM?

Are you? Or of 'fear itself' or your own 'barrier'


What would you do if you were not afraid?

"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.

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Originally Posted By: indiegirl
Originally Posted By: WhoAreWE


This forum seems to view that BS have a right to abuse their FWS for life (if the BS chooses). As long as no physical abuse occurs it is part of just compensation. If the FWS cannot handle the consequences of her A then leave.


I'm pretty sure no one said this.

People were discussing offering honesty freely, not taking abuse.

What abuse are you talking about?


Dr. H defines all Love Busters as abuse. I think he definition is pretty strict but it is convenient.

I cannot say one sentence about the affair without my husband attacking what I said. If I say one thing I will spend the next two days being educated on how my thinking was wrong during the affair (which I freely admit to) and that how I described the past is wrong which proves I have not changed so I cannot be trusted.

And with that encouragement I am suppose to answer all of his questions over again.

It is all just words, no big deal. Mine are wrong. His are right. If I would just repeat what he says we would be able to recover.


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Originally Posted By: WhoAreWE
Originally Posted By: indiegirl
Originally Posted By: WhoAreWE


This forum seems to view that BS have a right to abuse their FWS for life (if the BS chooses). As long as no physical abuse occurs it is part of just compensation. If the FWS cannot handle the consequences of her A then leave.


I'm pretty sure no one said this.

People were discussing offering honesty freely, not taking abuse.

What abuse are you talking about?


Dr. H defines all Love Busters as abuse. I think he definition is pretty strict but it is convenient.

I cannot say one sentence about the affair without my husband attacking what I said. If I say one thing I will spend the next two days being educated on how my thinking was wrong during the affair (which I freely admit to) and that how I described the past is wrong which proves I have not changed so I cannot be trusted.

And with that encouragement I am suppose to answer all of his questions over again.

It is all just words, no big deal. Mine are wrong. His are right. If I would just repeat what he says we would be able to recover.


I'm sorry, I can't make head nor tail of this.

What does 'It is all just words, no big deal' mean? Are you quoting your H?

Has he asked you specifically to repeat his words or is that just your opinion of what he wants?

I'm struggling to separate fact from perspective and whether it is your perspective or his you mean.

WHAT specifically has he done which constitutes abuse?

Last edited by indiegirl; 09/12/12 05:30 PM.

What would you do if you were not afraid?

"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.

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A different approach to this. Seems like your WH is stuck. BTDT. When I have been stuck on A details/emotions/etc. it has not necessarily been the details I was stuck on. Rather, lack of recovery work, UA time, need meeting, effort on the part of H to work toward a better marriage. That kept me stuck in the old M, which is the M where I was married to a less than trustworthy spouse, and had the potential to get hurt again.

So starting at the beginning. Have you put rock solid EP's and boundaries in place to protect you from having another A? Are their holes in your boundaries that would make your BH feel insecure?

I can't remember if you said your BH embraced the MB principles/program or not? Does he understand and embrace the concepts of EP's, UA time, EN's, etc? Is he able to communicate with you regarding these topics, without the hostility?

What are you doing to ensure that you are getting the necessary UA time in? I believe you said you were lacking on this.

Are you checking in with your BH to ask if you are meeting his most important EN's in the way that he needs them met?

Have you thought about the online program, where you have accountability to working the program and access to a coach, or counseling with the coaching center, to get through some of these main issues. I know this is something we have on our agenda.

If all of these things are done, perhaps it will pave the way for more successful and less abusive conversations regarding the A, if not alleviate the need for some of them all together.

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He is reluctant to embrace MB, Unwritten.


What would you do if you were not afraid?

"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.

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What I am not getting a feel for is how much WAW is embracing it. Not that WS always drives the recovery bus, but it certainly seems that in this case it is necessary.

I can tell WAW you are educated on the principles, just wondering about the application and what you are doing to bring your BH into that fold. From what I hear a session with SH could really work to your benefit if he is reluctant.

You have followed my thread, and I think RQ's too, where we have WH's who are 'willing' to embrace MB but do not actually act on it/do the work, put 100% of their effort in, etc. and I am wondering if you fall into this category.

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T/J

Indie jump over to that new thread here in Recovery about POJA, you are a POJA master and I think you can really help. Thanks.

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Of course.

WAW, if your husband believes in POJA and the like, as you have said...

Surely he's up for POJAing a solution on how he gets his 'truth' from you. The method of proof, I mean.

Should also mean he wouldn't be too much opposed to Steve Harley?

But I'm worried by these references to abuse and alcoholism. If this is a significant problem.. It can be harder to fix than the A. Dr H advises separation in these circumstances which is why I ask for details.,


What would you do if you were not afraid?

"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.

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Originally Posted By: WhoAreWE


This forum seems to view that BS have a right to abuse their FWS for life (if the BS chooses). As long as no physical abuse occurs it is part of just compensation. If the FWS cannot handle the consequences of her A then leave. Everyone has a right to an opinion and mine is that the line for where abuse is no longer acceptable is before physical abuse. It took a lot of abuse before I accepted that. You really have to suffer abuse before you know what it is like and how you will respond to it.



No one said that or even remotely suggested it. Interesting how this got turned around to make the MB posters the bad guys.


ME: BW
HIM: FWH
Married 18 yrs
DDay 09/2008 and 12/2008

Recovered

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Originally Posted By: pokerface

No one said that or even remotely suggested it. Interesting how this got turned around to make the MB posters the bad guys.



All, I am sorry for going off on a tangent. I avoided discussing that topic because it upsets me so much that I cannot even think. My commentary about the forum was not about this thread. I read a lot of threads and some have really triggered my sensitivity to abuse.


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I know I have to do something to free my husband of his unanswered questions. It will take me time. I will take all of the input I have gotten and work with it over time. This is my second major hurdle. And progress is stalled until I do something. UA time cannot be built with my BS in this state. I will do it someday. I'll let you know.


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Oh good.

Lots of other unanswered questions here, though WAW, which if are not dealt with could threaten your recovery plan and how well we advise you.

You have said that your husband is abusive, just short of actual physical abuse, and that you fear him, but you have not told us in what way the abuse manifests.

You have mentioned that there are some concerns that he is an alcoholic, but not told us whether you or whether he himself considers himself to be one. Or who did.

Can you elaborate?

You can't recover with someone who is abusive/alcoholic along the path you are on so these are quite important questions and we need a full picture please.


What would you do if you were not afraid?

"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.

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It was significant that you stopped posting immediately I asked you a question WAW, after having been very active until then. When you came back, you did not answer my question. Why was that?

There is something that you are not revealing here. I think that is because you are afraid, but you must see that it is significant and that you cannot be advised properly without talking about it. You are sending posters like indie round in circles because they don't understand your cryptic messages.


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WAW, if there is abuse or alcoholism in your marriage, those must be dealt with first.

I'm still kind of mulling over the comment you made about how if you were accused of being an alcoholic, your BH would want you to have one drink a week to prove your control over the addiction. He's not here to clarify his statement one way or the other, so it's difficult to address...however, if that is the truth, that is someone who does not understand addiction - whether that be addiction to a substance or an AP. broken is a recovered alcoholic with over 20 years sobriety. He is very proud of that, and would never allow himself to drink again because of the risk of relapse. My brother battled a cocaine addiction for years until he finally understood that there was no such thing as "recreational use."

Now, I don't know that broken ever accepted the similarity between affairs and addictions. Regardless, I do - and treat any thoughts/memories/reminders accordingly. It can be a struggle, especially when your needs aren't being met, which is why it is critical to have EPs and boundaries in place. When boundaries become habits, your perspective shifts. As an example, one day last week I was running errands on my lunch. As I walked back to my car, a guy in the parking lot called out, "Hey, you look nice today ma'am." I just smiled, said thanks and kept walking, but for the past week it has been bothering me like a sore tooth. I have joked about it, but couldn't figure out why it made me feel uncomfortable. I was reading Caracal's recent updates (on SAA) and realized why - admiration! Duh! I see it as a testament to MB as to how my perspectives on things have changed, and how I am cognizant of these things now.

As for a FWW accepting abuse, I've never gotten that here. Sure, you may see a poster or two who posits the "you made your bed" mindset, but as a general rule I don't see that at all. In fact, I was the one making excuses for broken's angry outbursts when other posters were advising me to separate - that his AO's were abuse. Yes, there is part of me that desperately wants to do "whatever it takes, as long as it takes," but I do understand that doesn't include submitting to abuse. As NG put it once on my thread, if "whatever it takes as long as it takes" included broken punching me in the face every morning for the rest of my life, would I accept that?

Where you must make a distinction is between a.) actual abuse and b.) normal human reactions to betrayal. Indie's and Sugar's points are if you can elaborate a bit, folks will be able to give you help targeted to your situation. If you are truly afraid of his reaction/response to revelations/answers, then I would suggest doing so in a safe environment, with a third party present.


FWW

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Originally Posted By: SugarCane
It was significant that you stopped posting immediately I asked you a question WAW, after having been very active until then. When you came back, you did not answer my question. Why was that?

There is something that you are not revealing here. I think that is because you are afraid, but you must see that it is significant and that you cannot be advised properly without talking about it. You are sending posters like indie round in circles because they don't understand your cryptic messages.



I'm terrible, because I hear this;



"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Niels Bohr

"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer

"Fair speech may hide a foul heart." - Samwise Gamgee LOTR
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Originally Posted By: wulffpack_girl

Where you must make a distinction is between a.) actual abuse and b.) normal human reactions to betrayal. Indie's and Sugar's points are if you can elaborate a bit, folks will be able to give you help targeted to your situation. If you are truly afraid of his reaction/response to revelations/answers, then I would suggest doing so in a safe environment, with a third party present.


I understand what you guys want but I am not giving the history of the first year. It is over but it still makes me overly emotional and irrational just to think about it so I won't. Having gotten past that I am now dealing with normal human reactions to betrayal.

Since my BS does not want others involved I am thinking that written communication will make me feel safe.


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Originally Posted By: SugarCane
There is something that you are not revealing here.


Yes, you do not have the full history and it is harder to help. I understand that is wasting your time. I have gotten the encouragement I need to move through this next step. I will make a plan and act so we can move on through recovery.


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I am thinking that written communication will make me feel safe.

We did the same thing. (NG was not always the calm, objective soul as you know him today!)

We got a ridiculous lime-green spiral notebook, which was stored when not in use alongside the microwave. Either of us could make use of it to pose a question, or state a position to the other. (We later set a one-page limit to each transaction; I can get verbose.) When the initiator was done, the book was placed in a specific site for the other. My spot was on my desk, her's on her sewing table. The responding spouse would answer and return to the other's site, usually within a day. The book could be kept "in play" while follow-up exchanges were made, and eventually returned to the microwave slot. I do not think we ever verbally spoke about the exchanges. It worked great to separate emotion from necessary discussion - my incipient anger, her native tears.

About a year ago, she was shocked to see the notebook back in play, and opened it to see my suggestion we burn the pages! We did so, and kept the notebook it its spot.

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NG, I like that idea. I guess I will see if my husband would be enthusiastic about it.


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Originally Posted By: WhoAreWE
Originally Posted By: SugarCane
There is something that you are not revealing here.


Yes, you do not have the full history and it is harder to help. I understand that is wasting your time.

WAW, that is not what I am saying and it is not how I feel. (I can't speak for others.)

I am very concerned for you and worried that if you do not tell people here the full context to your questions, you will not receive the help that you should.

I understand your decision to say no more here. I am sorry about it - but I do understand it.


BW
Married 1989
His PA 2003-2006
2 kids.
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