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#2659385 08/25/12 07:19 PM
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All,

I started this conversation on unwritten's thread and want to continue. Unwritten, I am apologize for hijacking your thread because it seems you were not interested in the topic.

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2658377#Post2658377

I am a FWW. My BS did not expose my affair except to our children. I am glad he told our children. I told my family. I have felt since the beginning that he needed to expose the affair so that he would have the support of his family but he does not want it. That creates a situation where I, the woman who betrayed him, am is only source of support. That is a job I definitely am willing to accept but it seems that his greatest source of pain cannot always be his best source of support.

My affair is over and has been since DDAY. The reason for exposure is for support.

Should I expose my affair for my husband? Tell my work, his family, our friends?


Is it right for me to expose my affair to force my husband to get support? I think it is disrespectful for me to do it.

I am interested to know if the vets think that it is OK for me to Disrespectfully Judge my husband's desire for privacy and show Independent Behavior by exposing against his wishes. Does the recommendation of Dr. H to expose out way his guidance that the first step in SAA is to stop Love Busters.

Take a look at unwritten's thread for background on the exposure conversation.




Last edited by JustUss; 08/28/12 10:20 AM. Reason: title chane

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Originally Posted By: WhoAreWE
All,

I started this conversation on unwritten's thread and want to continue. Unwritten, I am apologize for hijacking your thread because it seems you were not interested in the topic.

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2658377#Post2658377

I am a FWW. My BS did not expose my affair except to our children. I am glad he told our children. I told my family. I have felt since the beginning that he needed to expose the affair so that he would have the support of his family but he does not want it. That creates a situation where I, the woman who betrayed him, am is only source of support. That is a job I definitely am willing to accept but it seems that his greatest source of pain cannot always be his best source of support.

My affair is over and has been since DDAY. The reason for exposure is for support.

Should I expose my affair for my husband? Tell my work, his family, our friends?


Is it right for me to expose my affair to force my husband to get support? I think it is disrespectful for me to do it.

I am interested to know if the vets think that it is OK for me to Disrespectfully Judge my husband's desire for privacy and show Independent Behavior by exposing against his wishes. Does the recommendation of Dr. H to expose out way his guidance that the first step in SAA is to stop Love Busters.

Take a look at unwritten's thread for background on the exposure conversation.





Who is the OM? Is he married?


FWW/BW (me)
WH
2nd M for both
Blended Family with 7 kids between us
Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.



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Originally Posted By: BrainHurts


Who is the OM? Is he married?


Oh, right. My husband exposed to OMW on DDay. The other man is married and he was my co-worker. We no longer work together.


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Thank you for having the courage to open your own thread WAW. I've been patiently waiting since you posted on mine earlier this summer.

Think of exposure as excising a tumor on your BH's person. YES, it should be done, and YES he would stand a better chance of recovery with the subject action, and YES, in this case you (by virtue of your presence here) might actually have a more grounded view of the situation than he does.

All that said, dear friend, there is NO WAY you should grab him, slap a mask on his face, knock him out, and wheel him into the operating theater.

He does not yet understand the benefits of the action that you want to perform. As dicey as it sounds, this exposure action, the withholding of which your BH is using to manage his reaction to/recovery from your betrayal, MUST BE subject to the controls of POJA.

Exposure by the BS is not POJA-dependent. Exposure against the wishes of the BS would be. In each case the overriding principle is that the BS steers the recovery bus while the WS provides the power.

Your BH needs education, my friend. This is the place to get it. We will welcome him and assist him with whatever he needs.

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Originally Posted By: NeverGuessed
Thank you for having the courage to open your own thread WAW. I've been patiently waiting since you posted on mine earlier this summer.

Think of exposure as excising a tumor on your BH's person. YES, it should be done, and YES he would stand a better chance of recovery with the subject action, and YES, in this case you (by virtue of your presence here) might actually have a more grounded view of the situation than he does.

All that said, dear friend, there is NO WAY you should grab him, slap a mask on his face, knock him out, and wheel him into the operating theater.

He does not yet understand the benefits of the action that you want to perform. As dicey as it sounds, this exposure action, the withholding of which your BH is using to manage his reaction to/recovery from your betrayal, MUST BE subject to the controls of POJA.

Exposure by the BS is not POJA-dependent. Exposure against the wishes of the BS would be. In each case the overriding principle is that the BS steers the recovery bus while the WS provides the power.

Your BH needs education, my friend. This is the place to get it. We will welcome him and assist him with whatever he needs.


Yes.

Would Mr. WhoAreWe post here? Then he will have a HUGE MB family of support?

How is your UA time?


FWW/BW (me)
WH
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Blended Family with 7 kids between us
Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.



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NG,

Thank you for your view. I agree but was doubting myself based on comments on unwritten's thread. Her situation is more complex than mine. My husband has read postings and respects you.

Mr. WhoAreWe is not likely to post but he does read.

BH,
UA time needs to be increased but it is still haunted by discussions of the affair which makes it not very pleasant for either of us.

Thank you for your responses. Good night.


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Originally Posted By: WhoAreWE
NG,

Thank you for your view. I agree but was doubting myself based on comments on unwritten's thread. Her situation is more complex than mine. My husband has read postings and respects you.

Mr. WhoAreWe is not likely to post but he does read.

BH,
UA time needs to be increased but it is still haunted by discussions of the affair which makes it not very pleasant for either of us.

Thank you for your responses. Good night.


Have you answered all his questions? Once everything is out on the table no more affair talk per Dr. Harley.

Have you seen where Dr. Harley says that?


FWW/BW (me)
WH
2nd M for both
Blended Family with 7 kids between us
Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.



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...it is still haunted by discussions of the affair which makes it not very pleasant for either of us.

Yeah! If you would like to brainstorm how to reduce/eliminate that stuff, let us know. There are some brilliant minds here (Brainy is likely already finding some appropriate citations), and all we want to do is help!

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Here's a good show of Dr. Harley telling the couple to stop talking about the affair. Maybe listen to it with Mr. WAW?
Radio clip
Segment #2
Segment #3
Segment #4


FWW/BW (me)
WH
2nd M for both
Blended Family with 7 kids between us
Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.



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THREE whole minutes, Ms. Hurts? You're slipping! laugh

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Originally Posted By: NeverGuessed
THREE whole minutes, Ms. Hurts? You're slipping! laugh

Haha I know I had to load the segments up. laugh


FWW/BW (me)
WH
2nd M for both
Blended Family with 7 kids between us
Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.



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If your BH does NOT want everyone knowing, then it's HIS choice.

You don't get to do more damage by thinking you know what's best for him.

Not all men want their co-workers and family knowing their wife dropped her knickers for another guy. Some want to hold on to what bit of pride they still have left.

Exposure is best served up during an active affair in order to help the darkness of the active affair to come to light. This usually helps it come to a much quicker end.
When an affair has already ended, the BS gets to choose their path of who knows, OK!

Regarding support; If you don't feel up for the task, then maybe you need to evaluate whether you should be there at all.
It's your choice, help the victim or push him off to someone else.

I am no trying to be harsh, but I do want you to be realistic. You have a long journey ahead and you need to decide now, are you all in, or are you going to fold. This is not anyone elses marriage to help fix, it's yours.

That being said, you'll need tools if your really going to stay and fix this. Marriage Builders is your tool kit!

Start with the Coaching Center and set up some appointments ASAP.

Read the books, His Needs, Her Needs, and Love Busters, by Dr. Willard Harley, Jr.

Doo all the exercises in the books and whatever the coaching center tells you to do and within 6 months you'll have a marriage worth saving and you'll also have romantic love restored again.

I blew my own marriage apart, this is how we worked recovery. I've watched many come here and cry the blues, can't afford the coaching, no time, blah, blah, blah,,,, those that did not pick up the tool kits and work them together have ALL failed.

I pray YOU both succeed!





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Originally Posted By: WhoAreWE
...Should I expose my affair for my husband? Tell my work, his family, our friends?

Is it right for me to expose my affair to force my husband to get support? I think it is disrespectful for me to do it.
Yes, it would be disrespectful for you to, as the (F)WS, to unilaterally expose the affair without your husband's prior agreement. Seems to me it'd be better if he had other people whom he could lean on. However, as NG has advised, your H needs to be on-board with that. Absent his reaching out to others, you can't & shouldn't do that for him. As FWSs, we can only fix what we can fix -- which may not include everything we've broken.

So what have you been doing in the last 13 months or so, since your D-Day, to help him?


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WAW, how long ago was the dday and how long was the affair?

Forcing his friends and family to know that you were doing the OM can be the straw that broke the camels back.

As to talking about the affair, have you told your BH everything? Eventually the talking about the affair will have to end. However RC and UA time need to be fun time.

How about you pack supper go park in a shopping center lot and affair talk for an hour on Tuesday evenings for a few weeks with the stated goal of getting everything covered and done. Pick a location/place that the both of you don't use for RA and UA time. Doing this will while talking about the affair story won't pollute the places that the both of you like to go.

You had no problem doing the OM.

So you should have no problem telling your BH everything.

Consequences. Everything has them.

You danced.

You don't get to complain that you have to pay the band.

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Quote:
The other man is married and he was my co-worker. We no longer work together.
How did this come about? Did one of you quit the job?


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Quote:
UA time needs to be increased but it is still haunted by discussions of the affair which makes it not very pleasant for either of us.

Have you answered all of his questions regarding the affair? If so, the two of you need to stop talking about it. As you have seen, talking about the affair can turn a pleasant evening into a tear-filled, anguished evening in a heartbeat.

If he feels that he still has unanswered questions, you need to sit down with him and get the whole thing out in one big truth dump. If hearing it is too difficult for him, offer to write it down. Once you've accomplished that, that two of you need to stop talking about it.

UA time is something that should be enjoyable. Rehashing the affair has no place in UA time. There is room for only the two of you during UA time - not the ghost of the third party.

Now. Total disclosure: I also derailed a number of pleasurable evenings after D-Day by bringing up the affair. I threw it in my H's face quite a few times until I'd really read through MB and understood the concept of UA time. See, I didn't think he deserved to be enjoying himself, after what he did to me and us. I had to take myself in hand and straighten up because I was derailing our healing. My own mouth was getting in the way of our recovery. It was only after we truly followed the concept of UA time with no deviations that things really started to click.

Has your husband read completely about UA time?


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Hi WAW

As the wayward spouse, and since YOUR family knows, it seems there is accountability in place following exposure. You've paid your dues in that sense.

Your BH knows that if you were to get into another affair, your family would be watching you, as well as him so there is a kind of support in that.

Ideally, he would expose to his family and gain their support. As a BS who had to swallow her courage and expose to her family, I know the fears are pretty heavy beforehand. I thought there'd be violence, blame, people would stop me from attempting recovery or judge me. All I got was the most wonderful support.

I also believe that 'the truth will out' and if his family were to find out on their own, without it being managed, that would be pretty awful.

If he were to come here and post, I'm sure other BSs can tell him of their own exposure experiences. That's what helped me get the courage to do it.

I think you have done your part by offering to expose and help him speak to his family. You could also offer to show them signs of your remorse and sincerity, like a post nup or something like that.

As others have said, you can't force him but if he's reading here, I'm sure he would be on board with MB principles.


What would you do if you were not afraid?

"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.

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Thank you all for your responses. It seems everyone agrees that no more exposure is necessary. I think I just changed the subject on my posting hopefully that does not cause confusion.

My husband has not bought into MB. He has read here a lot but has not accepted it as his path to recovery. I do think it will provide me the structure to clean up my side of the fence.

That being said, he is not just going to stop talking about the affair because Dr H or I or you say so. I like the idea of trying to set aside specific time to talk about the affair so that it does not ruin every event during the day. I will try to POJA this with him. We have not tried POJA yet but I got to start somewhere.

Since DDay, over a year ago, and since I found MB last year, I have removed my behavior of having opposite sex friends. I used to socialize a lot with co-workers and most of them are male so I do not socialize at work any more.

Between my H and myself there have been a lot of Love Busters over the past year (and before that). So my main focus is stopping using Love Busters and to more elegantly handle Love Busters he tosses to me (without using MB terminology).

Please watch for me Love Bustering my husband and point it out. Got to go. Will respond directly tomorrow.

Any advice on how to MB without demanding your BS MB would be appreciated.


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You should POJA all YOUR decisions and actions with him. That way he can see the benefits of always being considered and decide if he wants to reciprocate by doing POJA too.

I wouldn't say further exposure 'isn't necessary' on the contrary I think it would benefit you both a great deal. Its just that, like everything else, you can't force your spouse to do it. It would be different if he were the wayward, of course.

What aspects of MB does he have issue with? Maybe you could use your new found POJA skills to discuss the policies he doesn't like in a way that he knows its his choice.

If you've both been lovebusting and not POJAing for a whole year - time to get serious. Recovery takes a couple of years so you cannot begin it too soon.

I take it you haven't had any guidance with recovery with either a marriage coach or the home programme, SH or your own thread. That sounds tough to do on your own.

Your BH sounds open minded to MB, if not signed up. Would he do a session with SH to see how it fits? Make it clear he can pull out any time.

What about asking Dr H the question on the radio? What to do if the BS doesn't want to do MB? I think that's slightly unusual as its usually the other way around.


What would you do if you were not afraid?

"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.

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Originally Posted By: BrainHurts
Here's a good show of Dr. Harley telling the couple to stop talking about the affair. Maybe listen to it with Mr. WAW?
Radio clip
Segment #2
Segment #3
Segment #4


BH,

You must have posted this Radio Clip on another thread because I have heard it. I took notes this time about recovery in general because the clip covers that pretty well.

Regarding talking about the affair, Dr H asked the BW whether she know how often they were together, whether they had S, what they talked about, whether they had plans for the future. His thoughts were if she had gotten that information she had enough information, even if she did not know everything, she had enough crucial information.

My husband has recently mentioned not knowing what I discussed with POSOM (although he definitely knows a lot because he brings it up) and he does not believe that we had no plans for the future. At this point my husband knows as much or more than I do. I have buried the memory of the affair but he remembers every word I have ever said about it.

Someone on another thread has asked a FWW to remember how good it felt to be in the arms of her POSOM (sorry I do not remember the context). A vet quickly said that one should never ask a FWW to do that. I hope my husband will stop demanding that I do. I will not spend another moment of my life living those nasty months. There is no value in going back there again. I know what I did. I do not need to roll in the slime of those memories to know how awful my behavior was. There is nothing good in what I did.


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As much as I respect a desperately remorseful FWW and your actions since dday appear genuinely directed towards getting your marriage back, you dont drive this train.

Im a year plus from dday and I have plenty of questions that haunt me. I do know a lot, however. To say I (and your husband) know more than our wives do about particulars is a slap in the face, by the way. Of the major crimes you perpertrated, giving us a lifetime of unknowns is way up there on the list of brutality.

Now, the good side. He's still around. That says a lot. But, he is in charge, my good lady. He gets to dictate who gets to know. You, by virtue of ripping his heart out, get to spend your time doing what you are doing and thats repair that which you sought to destroy.

I will agree with something you said somewhere on these pages. I do think fogged out, incredibly selfish person in the midst of an affair will forget details (either purposely or biologically) of their party when the wake up from it. I think those of us with sound moral compasses find it hard to believe things like when was the first kiss, first bj, first xyz, and did you talk about a life together, or my favorite did you ever call your BH a "loser" are all things IMPOSSIBLE TO FORGET (as my wife claims to have).

Sorry for the heavy handedness. You are doing really well and I like your moxy. Get your husband here and we'll help him thru this.

Let him drive the train.


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Couple of observations:

13 months is not very long into recovery, but it's probably past the point where details of the affair should be getting brought up...unless questions were never satisfactorily answered for the BS.

Let me challenge you a bit, WhoAreWE. 13 months is an awfully short time to (credibly) have forgotten. You may have buried the memories, and you may not want to go digging around there, but it just doesn't quite ring true to say you've forgotten.

Speaking to you as a FWS, I can tell you today, close to 4 years out, & with a well-recovered marriage, that there's still plenty I'd like to forget.

And it probably doesn't ring true to your BH if, during the past 13 months, you've staved off discussion by telling him you can't remember. Being betrayed tends to hone a BSs' "BS"-detector to a very finely-tuned state of sensitivity. Even your honest answers will be more suspect than they were before, and where something doesn't seem intuitively plausible to the betrayed spouse, the formerly wayward spouse isn't in position to claim benefit of a doubt.

Prefer not to remember? Perhaps.
Can't remember? Possible, but highly unlikely.

I can't know where you've been, mentally. I only have my own experience to go by. If you can level with yourself and honestly say that you've never told your husband "I don't remember" when it would've been closer to the truth to say "I don't want to remember", then you're to be congratulated. But if you can't honestly say this, then there's been some trickle-truth, and you'd do well for your recovery prospects to correct it. Once the betrayed spouse has the whole truth, he/she can at least then draw lines around the full extent of his or her pain; he/she then no longer has to suffer from imagining things that are even worse than the bad-enough things that actually were.


Me: FWH, 50
My BW: Trust_Will_Come, 52, tall, beautiful & heart of gold
DD23, DS19
EA-then-PA Oct'08-Jan'09
Broke it off & confessed to BW (after OW's H found out) Jan.7 2009
Married 25 years & counting.
Grateful for forgiveness. Working to be a better husband.
"I wear the chain I forged in life... I made it link by link, and yard by yard" ~Jacob Marley's ghost, A Christmas Carol
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Originally Posted By: MikeStillSmiling
As much as I respect a desperately remorseful FWW and your actions since dday appear genuinely directed towards getting your marriage back, you dont drive this train.

Im a year plus from dday and I have plenty of questions that haunt me. I do know a lot, however. To say I (and your husband) know more than our wives do about particulars is a slap in the face, by the way. Of the major crimes you perpertrated, giving us a lifetime of unknowns is way up there on the list of brutality.


MSS,

I truly appreciate your response. I watch your thread (and posts) and every BH who can provide me with insight. Have you and your wife established any patterns that help you safely bring up affair questions? Hearing details about the affair has to be emotional and provide fuel for lighting off Love Busters. I detach by saying it is not who I am now but my dear husband like to remind me that once a betrayer always a betrayer. I cannot take back what I did. When I get too emotional I have to stop talking or I will make the situation worse fast.

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Originally Posted By: GloveOil
[color:#000099]Couple of observations:

13 months is not very long into recovery, but it's probably past the point where details of the affair should be getting brought up...unless questions were never satisfactorily answered for the BS.

Let me challenge you a bit, WhoAreWE. 13 months is an awfully short time to (credibly) have forgotten. You may have buried the memories, and you may not want to go digging around there, but it just doesn't quite ring true to say you've forgotten.


I am here to be challenged. I feel like I need to continue to adjust my perspective in order to make progress.

I do not want to remember and will not let myself remember. I do not forget what I did but I cannot go back into the memories and re-live them in my mind. When I try to think back I just feel my stomach turn and stop.

I have buried the memories deep. For the first nine months I overlaid the pain of the consequences of my action on top of the memory of what I had done. Things were pretty intense. I sometimes say the memories were figuratively beaten out of me.


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Originally Posted By: WhoAreWE

Have you and your wife established any patterns that help you safely bring up affair questions?

There isn't any really safe way to discuss the affair. We try to concentrate on the present and future and not the past, and discuss how to firm up our EPs as present situations come up that have relevance. So, I would say that the best way to handle affair questions is to concentrate on the EPs that would have made that affair, and any future affair, impossible. In other words, you address affair questions by showing that you as a FWW are serious about never putting your BH through anything like this ever again.

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According to Dr. H, there should be one big affair talk and no more. It's best if that is done at the beginning of recovery, obviously. If it was not, the following should happen:

Your H needs to sit down over the next week and write down every question - big or small - that he has. He should then give you a copy of that list and then plan a time within those few days afterwards for the two of you to go to a neutral setting and discuss the whole thing. You should be as open and honest as you possibly can - and let him know you are willing to take a polygraph if he wants you to.

You should also let him know that this is the last time the two of you should ever bring up the affair - or anything that happened during the whole wayward period. The focus, after the discussion, should be on the here and now - and on your future.

This affair talk will set you back in recovery, but it is necessary if there are still things that need to be discussed. I went through this, but I will say, it was my own fault. At the beginning of recovery I got all the basics, but I truly felt that I did not want to know anything further. I know myself: I am terrible at being able to let go of images and associated pain. I thought I was better off. Well, as I mentioned on my thread, later - things popped up. It was advised to me that I needed to get some of those details, perhaps. I still didn't want to know every little thing, but I needed more info than I had.

I will tell you this much: recovery does go a lot smoother when you don't talk about the A, for both spouses. Your H may feel it isn't fair that he is supposed to just shake it off; we FBS's sometimes want to lash back because we don't know what else to do with our pain. However, it is SO much more harmful to do so. You think you're just making the FWS aware of how much you hurt - or paying them back for the hurt caused - but you're only hurting yourself. I hope your H can be convinced of that, once you answer any remaining questions he has.

The "night of answers" will not be pleasant, but it's the only way you can, perhaps, get him to stop bringing it up. My understanding is that he is not on board with MB, is that right? (I'm short on time and hoping I'm not confusing posters.) If that's the case, you can't hold him to the standard of, "This isn't the MB way," when he brings it up. You can only offer him the one night to get anything answered and then ask him, for both your sakes, to move on.

This time period would also be a good time to expose to anyone else you feel it is needed to expose to. (Although, I think the decision was that it isn't needed.)

Get the ugliness out of the way and then stand firm on the present and future! If your H won't commit to a recovery plan, perhaps you could ask him to at least do a phone counseling session. I read over and over that Steve H is GREAT at convincing reluctant spouses.


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Originally Posted By: WhoAreWE

Have you and your wife established any patterns that help you safely bring up affair questions? Hearing details about the affair has to be emotional and provide fuel for lighting off Love Busters. I detach by saying it is not who I am now but my dear husband like to remind me that once a betrayer always a betrayer.


No, the rules to MB are the rules and as such I dont bring up the A. I do everything to avoid the urge and as time moves on, Im more successful at it.

My wife avoids ANY A talk at all times. If Im negged out and she detects it and she'll avoid me. We will discuss THAT. "I see you are mad today and Im sure I know why...I dont know what I can do to make you happy when youre in that mood. Please tell me." This is about as close as she'll get to referring to it.

The humiliation she will live with is immense. In our opinion of the whole relationship, she was the victim. A monied, fun piece of crap made her a job offer, she bit, he wooed her over the years to the point where sleeping with him was easy, fun, dangerous, and unfortunately part of her life. Like nothing was out of place. This is a sad commentary of my wife's life for a long period of her life. SHE KNOWS IT BETTER THAN ANYONE.

Therefore for me to ask the 'how could you's?', 'why did you's?' and other ?s is stupid. There are no answers to these questions other than the answer MB delivers. She let her boundaries down around this a-hole and let him meet needs I couldnt or wouldnt.

Am I healed? No. Am I over it? No. Will I ever be? No.

I decided to give her a chance to make me whole again. And, she has been delivering.

She gets to live with lots of unknowns too. I dont parade them, but I know she is aware of them. Will I decide one day the 5-6-7 years (i give this range because this woman says she doesnt recall when she gave her first bj to him) of her banging another guy be too much for me? I promised myself (and my kids without telling them) I would give 2 years of my best to her before making a life decision like ending it. MY CHILDREN ARE WORTH IT. She will need to show me that she, too, is worth it.

The details of her affair (like everyone's, Im sure) are so unconscionable to me even 15 months later that I reserve the right to make changes in my life whenever I want. People on here dont agree with this but this is my defense mechanism when I get in a crappy mood.

This is the bed she and you made. The good news is you will read lots from guys who recovered from this and made great marriages as well as guys who said the pain is too much and took a powder.

Your job is to follow the WW playbook to your best ability giving him an easy decision.


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Originally Posted By: SunnyDinTX
According to Dr. H, there should be one big affair talk and no more.

It is an easy thing to recognize this as ideal, or at least as ideal as you can get under these conditions.

My experience was not so ideal. My FWW trickle-truthed me for several months. I tried to end it with the "big talk", and what I got was the "I can't remember and don't really want to remember" situation, similar to what WAW cites. We had the big talk anyway. Then, more details came to light here and there as time has gone on and my FWW's memories bubble to the surface. I try very hard to not talk about the affair. But the single biggest factor in the success of "the big talk" lies in the participation of the WS, and, unfortunately, WSs at that moment in time are often don't participate very well.


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Given that my husband does not follow MB. Would it be reasonable for me to say I will take the dive back into the past if he would be willing to make an effort to stop bringing it up after I give him the dump. Heck that may be easy for him if he decides to never talk to me again.

I feel that I would need help to pull out the past. I am really not comfortable doing it on my own. Just thinking about doing it makes my stomach turn and my eye water. That being said, my husband says in order for us to heal I need to face myself. And I say those months do not represent who I am and what I value.


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Someone once suggested a BS write down questions and the WS to answer them in writing. This may be easier for some.

This is one of those critical parts of this process that you cannot skirt because its uncomfortable. Your husband deserves to know every detail, dirty or otherwise, of your affair if you want to move on to a better marriage. The unknowns are preventing him from moving forward. He's stuck around for so long because he wants more from you.

You cannot know his reaction to the answers and THAT may be the scariest part for you. I suspect he may know the answers to his questions already and will be satisfied just to hear you say them. Your only request should be is that once the questions are finished and youve answered them, he cannot ask any more. You are permitted to remind of this should he have 'just one more question'.

The reality is your marriage today is not great and it wont have the chance to improve unless you slay this dragon.

There is no easy way out of infidelity.


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Originally Posted By: WhoAreWE
Given that my husband does not follow MB. Would it be reasonable for me to say I will take the dive back into the past if he would be willing to make an effort to stop bringing it up after I give him the dump. Heck that may be easy for him if he decides to never talk to me again.

I feel that I would need help to pull out the past. I am really not comfortable doing it on my own. Just thinking about doing it makes my stomach turn and my eye water. That being said, my husband says in order for us to heal I need to face myself. And I say those months do not represent who I am and what I value.

Your situation is not unlike mine, and the feelings you are expressing could be coming from my FWW. The big difference is that I *am* on board with MB. I think getting your BH on board is the first step. I don't know what value there is in dredging up the whole affair in the absence of making this the one and only time you have to do that. After all, the purpose here is recovery and not revenge.

Would your BH come onboard to MB if he understood that the first thing that will happen is that all of his questions will be answered fully and completely? Does he really want to recover? MB supports a full disclosure for the purpose of positioning the BS for recovery, not for the purpose of forcing the WS to face themselves. Saying that you need to face yourself is a disrespectful judgement. LBs are no plan for recovery.


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Originally Posted By: mrEureka

Would your BH come onboard to MB if he understood that the first thing that will happen is that all of his questions will be answered fully and completely? Does he really want to recover? MB supports a full disclosure for the purpose of positioning the BS for recovery, not for the purpose of forcing the WS to face themselves. Saying that you need to face yourself is a disrespectful judgement. LBs are no plan for recovery.


I do not want the topic of my husband needing to buy into MB to hi-jack this thread. He will not buy it in whole but he does accept the value of POJA, POUA, and PORH. I do not want this thread to focus on my convincing my husband to buy MB. At best I can understand and practice each concept myself and share them with him over time.

He understands that MB advises that stopping talking about the affair is a necessary step in recovering after you have all the details you need. I will be thankful for the first day that goes by when I am the only one reminding myself what a POS I was.

I will talk to him about what he needs to know (or hear) in order to know I have "faced myself" so he can heal.


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Originally Posted By: WhoAreWE
Originally Posted By: mrEureka

Would your BH come onboard to MB if he understood that the first thing that will happen is that all of his questions will be answered fully and completely? Does he really want to recover? MB supports a full disclosure for the purpose of positioning the BS for recovery, not for the purpose of forcing the WS to face themselves. Saying that you need to face yourself is a disrespectful judgement. LBs are no plan for recovery.


I do not want the topic of my husband needing to buy into MB to hi-jack this thread. He will not buy it in whole but he does accept the value of POJA, POUA, and PORH. I do not want this thread to focus on my convincing my husband to buy MB. At best I can understand and practice each concept myself and share them with him over time.

He understands that MB advises that stopping talking about the affair is a necessary step in recovering after you have all the details you need. I will be thankful for the first day that goes by when I am the only one reminding myself what a POS I was.

I will talk to him about what he needs to know (or hear) in order to know I have "faced myself" so he can heal.

Since the purpose of this forum is to discuss the practical application of MB principles, it would be remiss not to point out that Dr. H is very clear on the need for both spouses being fully engaged in recovery.

That said, a full disclosure might lead to your BH talking less about the affair; who knows? The more relevant question is if this is a step toward recovery. The path is very narrow. You are choosing to try to blaze a different trail. I hope you are successful. I only know that recovery is the hardest thing my wife and I have ever had to do, and we are both fully engaged in the MB principles.


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WAW,

Dr H asked the BW whether she know how often they were together,whether they had S, what they talked about, whether they had plans for the future. His thoughts were if she had gotten that information she had enough information, even if she did not know everything, she had enough crucial information.

Notice that it was a she and not a he, I think more often than not men are more tortured by not knowing the details.

My husband has recently mentioned not knowing what I discussed with POSOM (although he definitely knows a lot because he brings it up) and he does not believe that we had no plans for the future. At this point my husband knows as much or more than I do. I have buried the memory of the affair but he remembers every word I have ever said about it.

A perspective of a BH is that his WW is still protecting or has a good opinion of the OM, I think this is the case with my W and OM2, and it enrages me.

Did your H every cross check your story by getting OM to do a memory dump, did OM ever apologize to your BH, where their other witness to the affair?

From what you wrote it almost sounds like the affair was already dying, which means that you were ready to recover at the same time your BH was saddled with the heaviest burden in his life. One of the uglier aspects of affairs is how the BH feels it the worst of all 4 participants. The OM and OMW recover, or the OMW just accepts it as a fact of her life. The WW just wants to move on and forget, but the BH is stuck without support, and the person he might to confide in has alreay betrayed him. Women can usually confide in some other woman who had a similar experience, but there is really no place to go for men.

Someone on another thread has asked a FWW to remember how good it felt to be in the arms of her POSOM sorry I do not remember the context). A vet quickly said that one should never ask a FWW to do that. I hope my husband will stop demanding that I do. I will not spend another moment of my life living those nasty months.

But your BH will relive those months until he feels he has complete disclosure, I can tell you it can on for decades for men.

I do not want to remember and will not let myself remember. I do not forget what I did but I cannot go back into the memories and re-live them in my mind. When I try to think back I just feel my stomach turn and stop.

The fact that you and OM know means that you are still sharing an intimacy with OM to which your BH has no
access.

Given that my husband does not follow MB. Would it be reasonable for me to say I will take the dive back into the
past if he would be willing to make an effort to stop bringing it up after I give him the dump. Heck that may be
easy for him if he decides to never talk to me again.


And while you're at it make sure any prior infidelities, if they happened, or even financial dishonesty is disclosed as well.

One of the things my W said to me that keeps me from recovering is that "she would never reveal sexual details"

Another issue for your BH may be that he feels his sexual fidelity to you for all those years were a waste.

God Bless
Gamma

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Originally Posted By: Gamma
WAW,

Dr H asked the BW whether she know how often they were together,whether they had S, what they talked about, whether they had plans for the future. His thoughts were if she had gotten that information she had enough information, even if she did not know everything, she had enough crucial information.

Notice that it was a she and not a he, I think more often than not men are more tortured by not knowing the details.

My husband has recently mentioned not knowing what I discussed with POSOM (although he definitely knows a lot because he brings it up) and he does not believe that we had no plans for the future. At this point my husband knows as much or more than I do. I have buried the memory of the affair but he remembers every word I have ever said about it.

A perspective of a BH is that his WW is still protecting or has a good opinion of the OM, I think this is the case with my W and OM2, and it enrages me.

Did your H every cross check your story by getting OM to do a memory dump, did OM ever apologize to your BH, where their other witness to the affair?

From what you wrote it almost sounds like the affair was already dying, which means that you were ready to recover at the same time your BH was saddled with the heaviest burden in his life. One of the uglier aspects of affairs is how the BH feels it the worst of all 4 participants. The OM and OMW recover, or the OMW just accepts it as a fact of her life. The WW just wants to move on and forget, but the BH is stuck without support, and the person he might to confide in has alreay betrayed him. Women can usually confide in some other woman who had a similar experience, but there is really no place to go for men.

Someone on another thread has asked a FWW to remember how good it felt to be in the arms of her POSOM sorry I do not remember the context). A vet quickly said that one should never ask a FWW to do that. I hope my husband will stop demanding that I do. I will not spend another moment of my life living those nasty months.

But your BH will relive those months until he feels he has complete disclosure, I can tell you it can on for decades for men.

I do not want to remember and will not let myself remember. I do not forget what I did but I cannot go back into the memories and re-live them in my mind. When I try to think back I just feel my stomach turn and stop.

The fact that you and OM know means that you are still sharing an intimacy with OM to which your BH has no
access.

Given that my husband does not follow MB. Would it be reasonable for me to say I will take the dive back into the
past if he would be willing to make an effort to stop bringing it up after I give him the dump. Heck that may be
easy for him if he decides to never talk to me again.


And while you're at it make sure any prior infidelities, if they happened, or even financial dishonesty is disclosed as well.

One of the things my W said to me that keeps me from recovering is that "she would never reveal sexual details"

Another issue for your BH may be that he feels his sexual fidelity to you for all those years were a waste.

God Bless
Gamma



Since 1981, trickled truth every 3-5 years. Pieces have not matched well. Each time the story told more happened then the last version. This process has repeated till about 2004. Wife refuses to talk about it any more.

I don't talk much about anything at all any more and wife complains I don't want to talk in general.

She either can't put 2 and 2 together or acts as their is no elephant sitting in the room.

So if you want to live with an elephant for the next 40 years then all you have to do is not tell your BH what happened. Then just limp along.

A BH that is left with questions that need answering will have him searching for answers for the rest of his life. He will most likely never be able to leave the affair in the past. Part of every day will be spent in his quest for answers.

He may never get any new information so he will just keep looking at the pieces of the puzzle. Rearanging the pieces trying to see if he can get any new answerrs or possible clues.

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Here's a good show of a BH and a WW. The WW had a ten year affair.
Radio clip of 10 year affair
Segment #2
Segment #3


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MSS, I hope you don't mind what I'm about to suggest.

WAW, your FBH can get a HUGE education in the struggles and ultimate triumphs of a BH tortured by imaginings by simply reading both of MSS's threads, this one in SAA, and this one in Recovery. It's actually not vitally important to read MSS's notes, as your FBH seems poised to compose many of the same ones himself. Instead, have him read what the incredibly patient and wise MBers advised MSS, especially about the ongoing damage he was causing, and the need, at some point, to don a hero's garb, a simply slay the monster,

(MSS, you are NOT advised to review those dark times, okay?)

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Originally Posted By: Gamma

Did your H every cross check your story by getting OM to do a memory dump, did OM ever apologize to your BH, where their other witness to the affair?

From what you wrote it almost sounds like the affair was already dying, which means that you were ready to recover at the same time your BH was saddled with the heaviest burden in his life. One of the uglier aspects of affairs is how the BH feels it the worst of all 4 participants. The OM and OMW recover, or the OMW just accepts it as a fact of her life. The WW just wants to move on and forget, but the BH is stuck without support, and the person he might to confide in has already betrayed him. Women can usually confide in some other woman who had a similar experience, but there is really no place to go for men.


My husband did not check his story with the OM (or OMW). That I know he only spoke to OMW on DDay. There were no other witnesses to the affair.

I was not ready for the affair to end on DDay. I was deep in the affair fog. Seeing my husband crushed (by my affair) showed me something I had not been able to see for years. I saw that I had been the world to him. I saw that he was the man I had married. I saw that he is all I ever wanted. I was yanked into the reality of what I had done. I suddenly saw what I had been looking for right in front of me and I had just destroyed it.

It took me longer to see POSOM for who he was. It was probably 6 months before I could honestly say that if POSOM was my "friend" he would never have given me that first kiss. And if I was his "friend" I would never have asked for it.

As time has passed I can see my husband in the idealistic way I saw him on our wedding day (that is how I describe the "in love" feeling). I do not see him that way all of the time. I think that it is healthy to have that feeling in order to re-energize. When I am being bombarded by Love Busters, I see him how I saw him before the affair. Knowing MB I can see through that view and know it is not "who he is". Love Busters are just some bad habits that need to change. I have hope. My husband does not believe he can ever be "in love" with me again. I am trying to have enough hope for both of us.

Originally Posted By: Gamma

Another issue for your BH may be that he feels his sexual fidelity to you for all those years were a waste.


That is definitely the case.


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Originally Posted By: TheRoad

Since 1981, trickled truth every 3-5 years. Pieces have not matched well. Each time the story told more happened then the last version. This process has repeated till about 2004. Wife refuses to talk about it any more.

I don't talk much about anything at all any more and wife complains I don't want to talk in general.

She either can't put 2 and 2 together or acts as their is no elephant sitting in the room.

So if you want to live with an elephant for the next 40 years then all you have to do is not tell your BH what happened. Then just limp along.

A BH that is left with questions that need answering will have him searching for answers for the rest of his life. He will most likely never be able to leave the affair in the past. Part of every day will be spent in his quest for answers.

He may never get any new information so he will just keep looking at the pieces of the puzzle. Rearranging the pieces trying to see if he can get any new answers or possible clues.


I am so sorry about your story. I do not want my husband to live the rest of his life not wanting to talk to me. Having not lived through the events himself he can never know everything so how can he decide he knows "enough". In the clip BrainHurts posted earlier, Dr H told the BW that she knew enough. Unless she just defers to his opinion she will have a hard time knowing when she knows enough. Over the years of trickle truth did you ever think you knew enough but later changed your mind or had he leak information so you knew thinks you had not known.

Have you ever posted your story? I see you have been posting here forever but I do not see a thread you started.

Are you still married? Have you ever recovered? Did your wife had multiple affairs? Did she have affairs after 1981? Sorry for asking so many questions... I guess you are like a puzzle to me.


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Originally Posted By: BrainHurts
Here's a good show of a BH and a WW. The WW had a ten year affair.
Radio clip of 10 year affair
Segment #2
Segment #3


Thank you for this clips. Again I had heard it before and will listen again. The advise Dr H gives the BH applies. My husband feels that he does not know who I am any more. I might have been like the woman he describes that was not "being herself" with her husband. It gives me something to think about.

Last edited by WhoAreWE; 08/29/12 08:21 AM.

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Originally Posted By: NeverGuessed
MSS, I hope you don't mind what I'm about to suggest.

WAW, your FBH can get a HUGE education in the struggles and ultimate triumphs of a BH tortured by imaginings by simply reading both of MSS's threads, this one in SAA, and this one in Recovery. It's actually not vitally important to read MSS's notes, as your FBH seems poised to compose many of the same ones himself. Instead, have him read what the incredibly patient and wise MBers advised MSS, especially about the ongoing damage he was causing, and the need, at some point, to don a hero's garb, a simply slay the monster,

(MSS, you are NOT advised to review those dark times, okay?)


I agree. MSS story is one I have read and look back through.


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WAW,

One other big issue with some BHs, myself at least, is that we imagine that the sexual part of the affair was more frequent, more pleasurable, more intense, more varied, more orgasmic, than the sex has ever been within the marriage. While this might not be the case it nevertheless seems very real to the BH.

Was the OM superior to your BH in some ways, older, taller, etc, made more money?

Did prior GFs or Ws cheat on your BH, perhaps they did and your BH is too ashamed to talk about it, especially in light of this latest confirmation, in his mind, of his worthlessness.

God Bless
Gamma

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Originally Posted By: Gamma
WAW,

One other big issue with some BHs, myself at least, is that we imagine that the sexual part of the affair was more frequent, more pleasurable, more intense, more varied, more orgasmic, than the sex has ever been within the marriage. While this might not be the case it nevertheless seems very real to the BH.

Was the OM superior to your BH in some ways, older, taller, etc, made more money?

Did prior GFs or Ws cheat on your BH, perhaps they did and your BH is too ashamed to talk about it, especially in light of this latest confirmation, in his mind, of his worthlessness.

God Bless
Gamma


BH definitely focused on the fact that I put him down and said POSOM was more important than him and that I can never take that back.

I do not know how the truth of today will ever be able to overshadow what the affair said about me, him, and our marriage.


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Originally Posted By: WhoAreWE
[In the clip BrainHurts posted earlier, Dr H told the BW that she knew enough. Unless she just defers to his opinion she will have a hard time knowing when she knows enough.

Did you also hear Dr. H ask her how many days and hours does she think they've talked about it? It was something like 35 hours.


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Here's the follow up show to the BW and WH whom are still struggling because they aren't following the program.
Radio clip of follow up show
Segment #2
Segment #3


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Originally Posted By: WhoAreWE
I have hope. My husband does not believe he can ever be "in love" with me again. I am trying to have enough hope for both of us.

If you make love bank deposits and avoid withdrawals, your husband will find himself in love with you in spite of his present belief. The problem will be the depletion of your own love bank.

One of the key things that allowed me as a BH to stop hounding my FWW over the affair was my going to a psychiatrist and getting put on medication. Dr. H talks about the importance of this a lot, most recently on the radio program yesterday. It was a God send for me. It made me rational again. I could see through my own self-defeat that my marriage was indeed logical and her affair was not and that I could be her rescuer from the nightmare she had stumbled into. It brought that horrible drive in me to obsessively talk about the affair under control. I guess I am saying that in my case, the need to talk about the affair was a symptom of a psychological injury for which there was effective treatment, and I am very glad that I got that medication when I needed it.


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WAW,

One of the impressions I'm getting from you posts, although this may be incorrect, is that your are holding back from being completely truthful and detailed with your BH out of fear of him finding out something you have suppressed.

That's no basis for a long term marriage, as radical honesty is the only course of action which has a hope of bringing you back together.

God Bless
Gamma

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Originally Posted By: Gamma
WAW,

One of the impressions I'm getting from you posts, although this may be incorrect, is that your are holding back from being completely truthful and detailed with your BH out of fear of him finding out something you have suppressed.

That's no basis for a long term marriage, as radical honesty is the only course of action which has a hope of bringing you back together.

God Bless
Gamma


My memories of the affair were suppressed during a year of "abuse". I buried the memories over many nights of sleeping outside on the ground or walking a lone for miles to be away from my husband raging for hours about what a POS I am.

It is over now and I do not want to discuss that phase in our "recovery". I definitely feel safe with my husband now but I do not feel safe thinking or talking about the affair.

I have a lot to get past before Radical Honesty can be fully implemented. This is a marathon not a sprint.


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WhoAreWe.

Your marathon should be racing towards recovery, not away from RH.

RH is the MOST important thing for a BS, yes. Lies given are more painful than the SF given away.

But it is also important for your healing. I agree you need to face yourself. Why keep this toxin within, when it is better thrown out?

Holding on to lies and secrecy is liking upholding a boulder. It gets heavier the longer you fear putting it down. And you are alone in it. So very very alone.

Put the boulder down and start the healing. Put the written q&a solution in place tonight.


What would you do if you were not afraid?

"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.

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Originally Posted By: WhoAreWE
My memories of the affair were suppressed during a year of "abuse". I buried the memories over many nights of sleeping outside on the ground or walking a lone for miles to be away from my husband raging for hours about what a POS I am.

When was the last time he raise his hand to you, or you to him?


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Originally Posted By: mrEureka
Originally Posted By: SunnyDinTX
According to Dr. H, there should be one big affair talk and no more.

It is an easy thing to recognize this as ideal, or at least as ideal as you can get under these conditions.

My experience was not so ideal. My FWW trickle-truthed me for several months. I tried to end it with the "big talk", and what I got was the "I can't remember and don't really want to remember" situation, similar to what WAW cites. We had the big talk anyway. Then, more details came to light here and there as time has gone on and my FWW's memories bubble to the surface. I try very hard to not talk about the affair. But the single biggest factor in the success of "the big talk" lies in the participation of the WS, and, unfortunately, WSs at that moment in time are often don't participate very well.


In the case of a WS, they SHOULD participate VERY well or else the couple is not yet fully buying into MB and risking a false recovery.

In the case of WHO, she is the FWS and it's her H that is not fully participating in MB.

Just wanted to point out that those are two very different dynamics as a FBS should make FULL participation in the recovery program - including O&H during the big talk - a condition of reconciliation.

If a FBS gets a lot of I don't remembers, a polygraph is often recommended as the next step - asap into recovery.

I do think there are circumstances where a FWS truly doesn't remember some details, keeping in mind they are not in a normal frame of reference during the A. A polygraph would reflect that truth, however, and it's purely up to the BS to demand that.

ETA: I realized this post was a few pages back, but I wanted to put this out there because new posters could always be reading along.

Trickle-truths are no fun, that's for sure!


Last edited by SunnyDinTX; 08/29/12 02:26 PM.

"The #1 reason why people give up so quickly is because they tend to look at how far they still have to go, rather than how far they've gotten."

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My Original Thread: http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2457141&page=1

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Originally Posted By: WhoAreWE
Originally Posted By: TheRoad

A BH that is left with questions that need answering will have him searching for answers for the rest of his life. He will most likely never be able to leave the affair in the past. Part of every day will be spent in his quest for answers.

He may never get any new information so he will just keep looking at the pieces of the puzzle. Rearranging the pieces trying to see if he can get any new answers or possible clues.


I do not want my husband to live the rest of his life not wanting to talk to me. Having not lived through the events himself he can never know everything so how can he decide he knows "enough". In the clip BrainHurts posted earlier, Dr H told the BW that she knew enough. Unless she just defers to his opinion she will have a hard time knowing when she knows enough. Over the years of trickle truth did you ever think you knew enough but later changed your mind or had he leak information so you knew thinks you had not known.

Are you still married? Have you ever recovered? Did your wife had multiple affairs? Did she have affairs after 1981? Sorry for asking so many questions... I guess you are like a puzzle to me.



Yes.


Yes, bought the baloney story. But a slip up would result in a trickle truth. Believed there was no more. Then another trickle truth. Which started me to realize I don't have the whole story. Now I know I am missing so much. Missing more then I know.

Not mad at what happened. Sad that I'm left in the dark. I can no longer accept having the truth witheld.

The missing truth has prevented the necessary and meaningful talks needed to let this pass.


No.


"I do not want my husband to live the rest of his life not wanting to talk to me. Having not lived through the events himself he can never know everything so how can he decide he knows "enough"."

It is said that only each BS can decide how much detail he needs to know.

Also said a BH should think first before they ask a question because once an answer is heard it the answer can't be unheard. So a BH needs to proceed slow. Start with a general question line then go deeper as needed.

Example Q: did you have sex
A: yes

Notice the BH did not ask were condoms worn. After he asked about sex and he got this truth he may not be able to hear that no condoms were used. So the BH will not ask deeper but move on to another general question.

The WW answered truthfully. She let the BH control the depth by not giving more detail the asked for.

I have read posts by WW where the BH never new he had a WW until she confessed. The BH's only response was is the affair over are you leaving me.

Lucky, I use this word and chuckle a little, for these BH their WW wanted to recover their marriage. They were baffled by how their BH was not acting normal, no questions, refused to hear anything about the affair.

These BH were acting normal. They knew how much they could handle learning about the affair and were not willing to go past that point.

Some have to know everything. The rest are some where in between.

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WAW, it's been a while since you posted on this thread (you did on Vejan's).

It would be unlikely that almost two weeks would go by, for a couple in your tentative recovery state, with no issues - good or bad - and no progress (or regress) to report.

How are you and he doing with the necessary UA time? Have you and he reached an equilibrium between what he wants to know, and what you are able to recall?

Please let us know.

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WAW,

I did not abonandon my own thread just left for a lengthy family vacation, came back last week and didn't feel the need to resurrect quite yet. So, no TJing on my part and I am happy to see you start a thread of your own. So I can harrass you like you harrass me...just kidding! I meant SUPPORT you like you support me smile

As far as giving details. My sitch is slightly more complex in that both H and I are the BS, and the WS. Speaking as a BS I can tell you that I had to have EVERY last detail. When I first learned of the ONS I threw up for 12 hrs. Every meaningful talk we had about details thereafter where I got more intel, I shook violently while we were talking and I threw up afterwards most of the time. It sucked. But I could not possibly move on without getting it all on the table, I just couldn't.

I bring this up because you mentioned that you could not go back to those memories, it would make you physically ill to do so. It is not about you. It doesn't matter if it makes YOU physically ill to do so, if your BH needs that info you give it to him. Even after having my WH take a poly it took some time for the thought to settle in that I had all the info. It is just now starting to feel like a monkey off my back, to know that I know EVERYTHING. OK, maybe not every thing, occasionally I think of some small, minute, completely irrelevant thing that I might not know, and I tell myself to just let it go.

As the WS, I have answered every question my H has asked me about any wayward behavior I have had, with no exceptions. It wasn't hard to say it, in terms of guilt, as much as it pained me to have to tell it when I knew the answer was a dagger in my H's heart. But if he wants or needs to know, I will tell him. And I will hold him afterwards, if he lets me.

RH truly is the single greatest step you have to take to even begin R, IMO.

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NG,

Thank you for thinking of me.

The last week or so have been pretty rough. I could not imagine enjoying time together. I spend a lot of time in the state of withdrawal... my optimistic outlook for the future was hard to find. I thought about posting here but I could not think of anything constructive to say. I am reading Love Busters but I need the reader's digest version. Our biggest problem has always been Love Busters.

I think that my husband is stuck wanting the answer to why I had the affair and how he failed to see that I was such a bad person. The details of the affair are support material for what a bad person I am. He does not accept the MB philosophy that anyone would have an affair given the right circumstances. His current thought is that my fundamental values are flawed and I cannot fix that. I tricked him into thinking I was a good person (like him) but I am not.

I was reading on someone else thread that the BH stopped asking his FWW about why she had the affair because he always got fogbabble or that he was not meeting her emotional needs. I guess I am in the same situation. If I say what I thought when I was having the affair then it sounds like fogbabble. If I say what I think now then it sounds like an ad for Marriage Builders (which my husband is not buying). I will not accept his explanation that I am an evil person.

When I post on other people's threads it helps me think about my situation from another angle. I am not sure it is benefiting the other person so sometimes write and then delete before I post.


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Originally Posted By: unwritten
Every meaningful talk we had about details thereafter where I got more intel,


I say 'meaningful' talk. Because as a BS, there were a very small handful of meaningful talks about the A, where I truly had thought of things I wanted to know that I didn't ask on DDay, we sat down and calmly talked about them, I was sad, we moved on. But there were many, many talks or rather moments where I commented on the A, asked questions I already knew answers to, asked questions that didn't HAVE answers, etc. that were not only not meaningful but were completely and totally disruptive to any kind of recovery work.

Now I have all the info, but I still on a bad day want to go back to these little zingers. Don't let myself, but want to. That's all they are, not really efforts to get info I don't have, but attempts to 'remind' H that he F'd up. These absolutely will not let you recover, as long as they persist.

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I am reading your reply to NG and wondering how much UA time are you getting? SUCH a critical, critical element to R.

What are your BH's top EN's? How are you working to meet those and fill his LB?

What are the lovebusters that you struggle with, and how are you working to stop them?

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Originally Posted By: WhoAreWE


I think that my husband is stuck wanting the answer to why I had the affair and how he failed to see that I was such a bad person. The details of the affair are support material for what a bad person I am. He does not accept the MB philosophy that anyone would have an affair given the right circumstances. His current thought is that my fundamental values are flawed and I cannot fix that. I tricked him into thinking I was a good person (like him) but I am not.


I struggled with this A LOT. I put my H on such a high pedestal before finding out about his indiscretions, I bragged about him to everyone (to the point of annoying most of my friends), NO ONE measured up. As far as admiration, I don't know a single woman who admired her H more than me. That all came crashing down. I felt like I didn't know who I had married, to some extent. I had guilt for not knowing what he was capable of.

He used to say that it could have been me, I could have been the one to have a PA, and I would always say, but it WASN'T. I did NOT have sex, I stopped it before it got to that point, even after I knew he had a PA. I am thankful I stopped it but I do know it could have been me, we are all wired for it and clearly I walked a very thing fence.

Still, damage to my admiration for him is done. Of course it is, and I would assume likewise. That is something he must EARN back, and I would assume your H feels the same. If he admired you highly pre A, then I am sure he is trying to redefine the wife he thought he had. And I don't mean that to suggest you are a horrible person, just that his wife on the pedestal was not real, I guess.

NG posted on my thread once about this, as he held his wife in the same regard pre A and went through this too, I will try and find and link it for you.

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I think we had a convo about this on my thread, and were in a little dispute about it. About earning admiration vs giving it freely. It was one thing to give away admiration for doing the dishes, but what I am talking about is admiration for ones character. That is something, I think, after an A you need to earn back, because it has been so damaged.

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Originally Posted By: unwritten
I am reading your reply to NG and wondering how much UA time are you getting? SUCH a critical, critical element to R.

What are your BH's top EN's? How are you working to meet those and fill his LB?

What are the lovebusters that you struggle with, and how are you working to stop them?


unwritten,

Thank you so much for responding and sharing your stories that parallel my husband's.

UA time was in the single digits last week. He was in such a mood that I could not barely handle being the house with him. I think the mood has past.

His top needs: SF, RC, Admiration, O&H
Mine are: Admiration, FC, Affection

I will enthusiastically participate in SF whenever he will. SF seems to be a trigger for him so he is having problems being enthusiastic. We play softball for RC time once or twice a week. We used to be more focused on other people but know we play to be with each other. Admiration is hard because the affair blew the foundations for him believing I admire him. I show my appreciation for everything he does for us.

Him having one thought that the affair showed that "he was not good enough for me" destroys any contributions to SF and Admiration. It is like he is applying a disrespectful judgement to himself for me that kills his Love Bank. I guess I am fighting against my Love Busters of the past.


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After DDay H was very interested in SF, whereas that is not normally the case (eagerly instigating). I loved that. Yes it is HARD to not give in the visuals, etc. but it did help make me feel like he really wanted me (but then you know I have a hangup about that so that may only apply to me). I think it is very important for him to know you want him, in an SF way.

As much as intimacy at this point is critical, sometimes it is the intimacy in sex that made me think of the visuals. The more intimate, the more heartbreaking thinking he shared that with someone else. My fix for that is to have 'porn sex' when I just can't handle the intimacy. Now before everyone jumps on me here, for those of us with SF as a top need, SEX is just as important as the intimacy, and I am not suggesting that to be unimportant, etc. I am suggesting that on those days when it is too raw, and you can't reach that intimacy level without having too much negativity surrounding it, keep it about the sex. That allowed me to still get some of that need met and still be close with my WH, but not have to end with sadness. That was my way of working through it. And the intimacy just came back on its own the further out we got.

(This may not be an area I should give advice on, however.)

I notice O&H. That moved up the ladder for me when I felt H was not being O&H, but once I felt he was it moved back down the ladder of EN's. So, I an wondering if that applies to your BH here too.

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Originally Posted By: unwritten
I think we had a convo about this on my thread, and were in a little dispute about it. About earning admiration vs giving it freely. It was one thing to give away admiration for doing the dishes, but what I am talking about is admiration for ones character. That is something, I think, after an A you need to earn back, because it has been so damaged.


I understand what you are saying. I hope the day to day admiration will give me (and your husband) the strength to recover the marriage. I hope when we are recovered my BS will look at me one day and realize he has the deeper admiration again.

Originally Posted By: unwritten

I struggled with this A LOT. I put my H on such a high pedestal before finding out about his indiscretions, I bragged about him to everyone (to the point of annoying most of my friends), NO ONE measured up. As far as admiration, I don't know a single woman who admired her H more than me.


My H says the same thing. Pre-affair love busters destroyed my feeling of being admired. I'd be curious if your husband knew how much you admired him. I did not. How do you show your "admiration for ones character" so that they know how much you admire them? So they get the love bank deposits?


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Well in my case I went and had an RA, so now we both have to create admiration again (although it seems my admiration for him has decreased, and his for me has increased, throughout this whole mess).

I would say H did NOT know AT THE TIME how much I admired him. I ranted and raved about him to friends, but to him, due to the state of our M, I was always trying to discuss our problems and how to have a better M. I know he took this as he could never please me (not that he tried very hard, just mean he thought I was never happy). So in that respect I don't think he knew.

But once I lost the admiration, the subtle things that would have told him how much I admired him were all of a sudden not so subtle. The admiring way I looked at him, gone. Always wanting to be around him, touch him, etc., gone. Always trying to cater to him and make him happy, gone. You don't know what you got till its gone def applied here. He didn't realize how much I talked about him to others until all of a sudden I didn't even mention I was married (if you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all....). So then it became blatantly obvious what he had, and what he lost. That continues to be very difficult for him, even though I am FAR more admiring today than I was during trickle truth and following DDay.

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As a BS, I would hope to have immunity from accusations of being a wayward-apologist, so here goes....

(Disclaimer: There are cases of addiction/mental pathologies among WSs that are outside this summary.)

The toughest things for many BSs to accept, especially given our anger, hurt, resentment, doubt, and...hopelessness...is that before the WS went outside, there were gaps and failures in the marriage structure. Over and over, it comes out, almost parenthetically:

- the BH who did little to provide FS for his family, leaving the main burden to the (eventual) WW

- the BW who admits to "gaining a little weight - 70 lbs"

- either gender who finally realizes that exclusive attention to a job, a hobby, a sport, the children deprived the spouse of that necessary attention

- similarly, the spouse who makes no effort to participate as the other starts to find enthralling past-times alone, be it children's sports, or social media, etc

- the BH who admits he was too strict/judgmental/authoritarian

- the BW who now admits SF (quantity, variety, or enthusiasm) had become a distant memory

- combinations of all the above, and others. (And if I missed anyone, I'll catch them next time.)

Some BSs make the connection very quickly. Some never get the picture. THIS IS NOT BLAMING THEM! It's just an acknowledgement that the bell curve is almost always present.

So the first note of the newbie thread has, "Married XX years...the usual problems such as (fill-in), but all-in-all I thought we were pretty good......" Well "pretty good" might have been sufficient when these folks were around but not today. Mr and Mrs Gothic lived in a world much less coddling and understanding of the wayward choice. (No, I'm not going into my version of "why". My codger-hood starts tomorrow, not today.)

The mystified BS does not get that "the usual problems" today carry worse impacts to the marriage. A homogeneous workforce, the existence of asynchronous, essentially private communication (in multiple forms) virtually 24/7, and the burden of the likely disjointed marital-continuity of the previous supporters of any one marriage - parents, siblings, all either foster inappropriate linkages or fail to prevent them.

Way back when, as a newbie, I was railing against my fate as someone posted here the Top Six EN's for Women, and I could honestly state that I frickin' NAILED all but one - intimate communication, highly available. Someone (MB?) pulled me off my high horse by saying (paraphrased), "Yeah, moron, but the one you missed was easily NUMBER ONE!"

All that said, then, WAW, you're going to have to find a way to explain to BH that those ENs OM supplied to you will entirely be sourced within the marital union, because you two will see to it. Chloroforming him, tying him to a chair, propping his eyes open and paging through the MB program is likely extreme.

The ugly part of this, WAW, is that you will have to be brutally honest with yourself about what you got from POSOM. And then you will have to explain that to FBH. If he were here, we could buffer it for you.

If he does not yet buy into the universality of the wayward impulse, you might have to trade, "I was weak and flawed in my need for......", for "I was evil." (Bride and I did this without MB, and it was not fun. Some of the things I uttered during that unguided exploration... puke)

For now, I'm done. Both fingers are throbbing, and the dog needs walking. If this helps, good. If not, well, a smarter poster should be along soon!

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Originally Posted By: unwritten
After DDay H was very interested in SF, whereas that is not normally the case (eagerly instigating). I loved that. Yes it is HARD to not give in the visuals, etc. but it did help make me feel like he really wanted me (but then you know I have a hangup about that so that may only apply to me). I think it is very important for him to know you want him, in an SF way.

As much as intimacy at this point is critical, sometimes it is the intimacy in sex that made me think of the visuals. The more intimate, the more heartbreaking thinking he shared that with someone else. My fix for that is to have 'porn sex' when I just can't handle the intimacy. Now before everyone jumps on me here, for those of us with SF as a top need, SEX is just as important as the intimacy, and I am not suggesting that to be unimportant, etc. I am suggesting that on those days when it is too raw, and you can't reach that intimacy level without having too much negativity surrounding it, keep it about the sex. That allowed me to still get some of that need met and still be close with my WH, but not have to end with sadness. That was my way of working through it. And the intimacy just came back on its own the further out we got.

(This may not be an area I should give advice on, however.)

I notice O&H. That moved up the ladder for me when I felt H was not being O&H, but once I felt he was it moved back down the ladder of EN's. So, I an wondering if that applies to your BH here too.


I think in my husband's case your advise on SF is very applicable. He needs to enjoy SF for SF and let the intimacy come with time. He is pressuring himself.

O&H is generally important to my husband. I think it was one of my biggest trouble areas. I never felt safe saying what I felt. I am working hard on saying what I think without worrying about the judgement that may come. It is just a momentary judgement but not being upfront leads to long term issues.

There was a thread where the man's girlfriend was a "pleaser". She did everything to make him happy. Then she had an affair and he still defended her as being so "perfect". I feel in some way that I was trying maintain a "perfect" image.


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NG,

Thank you for taking so much time to write. I could definitely use the encouragement this week to get my forward traction.

Originally Posted By: NeverGuessed

Some BSs make the connection very quickly. Some never get the picture. THIS IS NOT BLAMING THEM! It's just an acknowledgement that the bell curve is almost always present.


My BS definitely feels that I am blaming him for the bad choices I made. But I am not (anymore). Nor do I accept the blame for any bad choices he makes.

Originally Posted By: NeverGuessed

All that said, then, WAW, you're going to have to find a way to explain to BH that those ENs OM supplied to you will entirely be sourced within the marital union, because you two will see to it. Chloroforming him, tying him to a chair, propping his eyes open and paging through the MB program is likely extreme.


Compared to that, demanding he do the MB program sounds like a gentle request. He has read a lot of MB but will not accept some fundamentals, such as, anyone could have an affair.

Originally Posted By: NeverGuessed

The ugly part of this, WAW, is that you will have to be brutally honest with yourself about what you got from POSOM. And then you will have to explain that to FBH. If he were here, we could buffer it for you.


I think I see what I got from POSOM. Admiration, Affection, and Intimate Conversation. It was all superficial but it filled my Love Bank. BS says if that was all I wanted from POSOM then it would not have become a PA. I keep asking myself, is that true? Is all I ever wanted was SF?

Originally Posted By: NeverGuessed

If he does not yet buy into the universality of the wayward impulse, you might have to trade, "I was weak and flawed in my need for......", for "I was evil." (Bride and I did this without MB, and it was not fun. Some of the things I uttered during that unguided exploration... puke)


I am good with saying I was "I was weak and flawed ...". Heck, I'll even say "I was evil". I just refuse to say that I am now and I will protect us from me ever being that way again.

Originally Posted By: NeverGuessed

For now, I'm done. Both fingers are throbbing, and the dog needs walking. If this helps, good. If not, well, a smarter poster should be along soon!


I think I got the superstars with you and unwritten.


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It was all superficial but it filled my Love Bank.

That, my friend, is an oxymoron. If those three things filled your Love Bank, the were NOT superficial; they were gaping needs that your boundaries were insufficient to withstand.

I think I see what I got from POSOM. Admiration, Affection, and Intimate Conversation...BS says if that was all I wanted from POSOM then it would not have become a PA. I keep asking myself, is that true? Is all I ever wanted was SF?

You forgot the "negotiation" (covert though it might have been) between you and POSOM. You wanted Ad, Af, and IC, and found a source with him. You came to rely on that supply, and were so grateful for their delivery from him, that your Love Bank swayed you to do what would have been previously unimaginable to keep them coming.

While not necessarily a truism, it has proven to be useful here to recall this piece of the Infidelity Algebra:

EA + Time + Opportunity = PA

I do not recall if you and FBH have completed the ENQs. They will be vital in helping you both keep your marriage safe and flourishing.

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Originally Posted By: unwritten

Well in my case I went and had an RA, so now we both have to create admiration again (although it seems my admiration for him has decreased, and his for me has increased, throughout this whole mess).

I would say H did NOT know AT THE TIME how much I admired him. I ranted and raved about him to friends, but to him, due to the state of our M, I was always trying to discuss our problems and how to have a better M. I know he took this as he could never please me (not that he tried very hard, just mean he thought I was never happy). So in that respect I don't think he knew.

You don't know what you got till its gone def applied here. He didn't realize how much I talked about him to others until all of a sudden I didn't even mention I was married (if you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all....). So then it became blatantly obvious what he had, and what he lost. That continues to be very difficult for him, even though I am FAR more admiring today than I was during trickle truth and following DDay.


It seems that we have lived parallel lives but on opposite sides of the situations.

I find that I am holding on to the admiration that my husband used to have. He has told me so many things about how he felt about me. It makes me cry when I think that I could not see it even though it should have been so obvious.


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Originally Posted By: NeverGuessed
It was all superficial but it filled my Love Bank.

That, my friend, is an oxymoron. If those three things filled your Love Bank, the were NOT superficial; they were gaping needs that your boundaries were insufficient to withstand.

I think I see what I got from POSOM. Admiration, Affection, and Intimate Conversation...BS says if that was all I wanted from POSOM then it would not have become a PA. I keep asking myself, is that true? Is all I ever wanted was SF?

You forgot the "negotiation" (covert though it might have been) between you and POSOM. You wanted Ad, Af, and IC, and found a source with him. You came to rely on that supply, and were so grateful for their delivery from him, that your Love Bank swayed you to do what would have been previously unimaginable to keep them coming.


WAW, I doubt you were just looking for sex. Yes, some WS's do commit adultery just for the sex, but most garden-variety affairs begin because we "innocently" allow someone else to meet our needs and begin to make LB$ deposits. I wasn't looking for sex. broken and I had a darn good track record, SF speaking, with my only complaint being that while the quality was good, the quantity was lacking. Within a mere couple of months after seeing POSOM in person again after 20+ years I put out. The attention, the affection, the admiration were intoxicating and I sold my soul to keep it coming.

And you aren't evil. Yes, your actions were. Adultery is evil. But as I said on XVY's thread, few of us deserve the pedestals we are placed on by others. broken has called me evil many times since d-day. I'm working on not believing that about myself anymore.


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Originally Posted By: WhoAreWE
I find that I am holding on to the admiration that my husband used to have. He has told me so many things about how he felt about me. It makes me cry when I think that I could not see it even though it should have been so obvious.


There. That is what happens when we don't know how to meet each others' needs in the ways that resonate with us. Yes, he felt all of these things about you, and I'm sure in a lot of ways he *was* showing you how he felt - perhaps by working 40+ hours a week, taking care of the yard, not going out with his buddies on the weekends...but those actions and/or things were not filling the EN's most important to you - in other words, they weren't making huge deposits in your LB$. Perhaps you would have rather just sat and talked with him, or taken a walk together around your neighborhood, or had him suprise you with love notes tucked into your sock drawer. Point is, if we don't know what each others' needs are, we can't meet them appropriately....so we might be spending lots of effort, but making very few deposits. I think often we try to love our spouses the way WE need to be loved, meeting the needs that are most important to US, while missing the mark on what is most important to THEM.

That's where the ENQ will come in. Is he willing to take it?


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Originally Posted By: NeverGuessed

While not necessarily a truism, it has proven to be useful here to recall this piece of the Infidelity Algebra:

EA + Time + Opportunity = PA


I must have missed that Algebra class. Or maybe I was never very good remembering formulas.

Originally Posted By: NeverGuessed

I do not recall if you and FBH have completed the ENQs. They will be vital in helping you both keep your marriage safe and flourishing.


I find the ENQ to be an advanced questionnaire. If I knew myself well enough to answer those questions I wouldn't be here. My BS thinks I went to POSOM with instructions on how to make me happy (like an ENQ) but that I refused to do that for BS. If I had actually known the holes that needed to be filled I would have done something about it. I have spend the last year learning about myself and I still have so much to understand. I would NEVER have said I needed affection or intimate conversation. Heck, I thought I didn't need anything from anybody. Boy was I wrong.


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Do you have HNHN? Are you reading the chapter for each EN that corresponds to the questionairre, and using that to decipher whether it is an important need for you? (Dr Harley also gives a condensed version on audio, I think, which is what is included in our home program materials).

This was very helpful for us. We filled out the questionairre's a long time ago, then did the ENQ again using the audio as a real time guide to make sure that we were understanding each EN correctly.

I remember for SF for instance, Dr H gave specific examples that would indicate it was a strong need, rather than confusing it with affection, etc.

Bring your questions to the board and maybe we can help sort it out. I think figuring out what your EN's are, are very important in terms of creating an affair proof environment.

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WPG,

Thank you for your postings. I fear my H is labeling himself "broken", like your H, and will not accept that he can be fixed.

Originally Posted By: wulffpack_girl
[quote=WhoAreWE]
That's where the ENQ will come in. Is he willing to take it?


As I said to NG. The ENQ has puzzled me every time I have looked at it. I am almost at the point were I might be able to fill it out. I can most certainly not give my husband a hard time about not meeting my emotional needs when I never knew (or admitted) I had any.


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Is your BH willing to fill it out?

I think more important at this stage is knowing what his EN's are so you can work on his very damaged LB.

I know you listed them, just wondering if he decided on these or if you were guessing, which many spouses have to do before getting a reluctant spouse on board.

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Originally Posted By: unwritten
Do you have HNHN? Are you reading the chapter for each EN that corresponds to the questionairre, and using that to decipher whether it is an important need for you? (Dr Harley also gives a condensed version on audio, I think, which is what is included in our home program materials).


I have HNHN, SAA, LB. If I read those books as much as I read the forum I might get through them. I really wish Dr. H had an electronic version. I haven't read a book in decades. An audio version would work for me too. The home program is like the books for me... I won't use it. Does the program come in a download only format? Getting a set of disks reminds me of the teach yourself Spanish sets that I would buy and never use.

Originally Posted By: unwritten

This was very helpful for us. We filled out the questionairre's a long time ago, then did the ENQ again using the audio as a real time guide to make sure that we were understanding each EN correctly.

I remember for SF for instance, Dr H gave specific examples that would indicate it was a strong need, rather than confusing it with affection, etc.

Bring your questions to the board and maybe we can help sort it out. I think figuring out what your EN's are, are very important in terms of creating an affair proof environment.


I feel like over the last month I have gotten a pretty good idea of my emotional needs. I think I know my H and I think I used to meet them pretty well. Now he is not too open to me meeting them but that will take time.

One of his needs is actually a joke I see here often. He has a definite need for "Intellectual Conversation" rather than "Intimate Conversation". Honestly, I do not satisfy this very well. But I suspect it is very important to him. There have been many times that I have been concerned by the glow around him when he is having an intellectually stimulating conversation with another woman. He is not much about talking about his day but he wants to talk about the "world" events of the day.


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Originally Posted By: unwritten
Is your BH willing to fill it out?

I think more important at this stage is knowing what his EN's are so you can work on his very damaged LB.

I know you listed them, just wondering if he decided on these or if you were guessing, which many spouses have to do before getting a reluctant spouse on board.


I am just guessing for my reluctant spouse.


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Originally Posted By: WhoAreWE

I think that my husband is stuck wanting the answer to why I had the affair and how he failed to see that I was such a bad person. The details of the affair are support material for what a bad person I am.



So he should just do without them until you think his behaviour is more understanding?

Really WAW, that is not your call. You owe him this truth and he can respond any way he chooses.

If he decides he doesn't want to be with you, at least you will have enabled him to go without any gnawing unanswered questions.

Gnawing, unanswered questions are what keeps a BS up at night.

He needs the truth. You created this thirst for knowledge and now you withold the water in case some spills on you.

I do think you are a good person. Or rather are trying your hardest to be one in this very paainful situation.

So in order to be one I would suggest you have to put his need for the truth ahead of the pain the truth causes you. Ahead of the bad consequences it may have for you.

If he decides he doesn't want to be with you after hearing the truth, that is a consequence of the A. One you have to take on the chin.

But please don't choose silence to save your own skin over his sanity.


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Originally Posted By: indiegirl
Originally Posted By: WhoAreWE

I think that my husband is stuck wanting the answer to why I had the affair and how he failed to see that I was such a bad person. The details of the affair are support material for what a bad person I am.



So he should just do without them until you think his behaviour is more understanding?

Really WAW, that is not your call. You owe him this truth and he can respond any way he chooses.

If he decides he doesn't want to be with you, at least you will have enabled him to go without any gnawing unanswered questions.

Gnawing, unanswered questions are what keeps a BS up at night.

He needs the truth. You created this thirst for knowledge and now you withold the water in case some spills on you.

I do think you are a good person. Or rather are trying your hardest to be one in this very paainful situation.

So in order to be one I would suggest you have to put his need for the truth ahead of the pain the truth causes you. Ahead of the bad consequences it may have for you.

If he decides he doesn't want to be with you after hearing the truth, that is a consequence of the A. One you have to take on the chin.

But please don't choose silence to save your own skin over his sanity.



It is difficult to talk to someone who is not listening. I could probably tell the story of my affair to you and you could slowly pull the details out. When I talk to my husband, he attacks every statement I make and says that I am wrong about how I felt at the time. My truth does not make sense because it does not match his belief that I plotted the A from the first time I met POSOM. It doesn't match his belief that I was hunting for an AP ever since we were married. He wants me to admit that his view of the affair is the truth but it is not.


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Originally Posted By: WhoAreWE
Originally Posted By: indiegirl
Originally Posted By: WhoAreWE

I think that my husband is stuck wanting the answer to why I had the affair and how he failed to see that I was such a bad person. The details of the affair are support material for what a bad person I am.



So he should just do without them until you think his behaviour is more understanding?

Really WAW, that is not your call. You owe him this truth and he can respond any way he chooses.

If he decides he doesn't want to be with you, at least you will have enabled him to go without any gnawing unanswered questions.

Gnawing, unanswered questions are what keeps a BS up at night.

He needs the truth. You created this thirst for knowledge and now you withold the water in case some spills on you....



It is difficult to talk to someone who is not listening. I could probably tell the story of my affair to you and you could slowly pull the details out. When I talk to my husband, he attacks every statement I make and says that I am wrong about how I felt at the time. My truth does not make sense because it does not match his belief that I plotted the A from the first time I met POSOM. It doesn't match his belief that I was hunting for an AP ever since we were married. He wants me to admit that his view of the affair is the truth but it is not.



I'll wade in here, because I think - in light of some of what NG and WAW have posted, and in light of my own experience - that I understand what's happening. Please correct me if I'm wrong, WAW - but I'm thinking that the information your BH is asking for is not necessarily details of the adultery - he is asking questions in the vein of "why did you/how could you".

If the BS discounts Dr. H's theories as to why affairs happen, then the WS's explanations of "why/how" are going to be insufficient. In my case, I think even before MB, broken accepted the concept that poor boundaries + unmet needs + allowing someone else to meet needs = affair, when he thought I'd "only" had an EA. However, once he knew the truth about my adultery, that in combination with my persistent lying was enough to make the "she is evil" theory outweigh anything else.

I don't know - am I on the mark here, or way off?


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Have you written out a complete time line of events and all details of what happened?

Have you asked your husband to put down additioanl questions in writing so you can answer them in full?

What other efforts have you put into giving him the truth?

If he is very resentful and finding it hard to listen to a spoken report, then what else can you do to help him?

If he is finding it hard to believe your version of events, well that is only to be expected, particularly considering you are still hiding the truth. In fact BSs (all spouses in fact) are advised on MB to be wary of taking their spouse's sole word for everything and showing trust when it isnt backed up by proof.

Usually when a BS finds a version of events difficult to believe, a polygraph is offered.

If your spouse believes you went out with the intention to commit this affair, well that is his pregrogative. Why should he trust you?

If he were on these boards I would tell him that an affair is rarely pre-meditated, but that sometimes it is. And sometimes that very thing does happen, so why shouldnt he be wary of it?

I would advise him to stick with the plans, but I surely would not judge him for his beliefs, or be disrespectful of them as they spring from his betrayal.

Giving him the truth can only help him with his struggle to see you as a truthful person, SURELY.


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Originally Posted By: wulffpack_girl
Originally Posted By: WhoAreWE
Originally Posted By: indiegirl
Originally Posted By: WhoAreWE

I think that my husband is stuck wanting the answer to why I had the affair and how he failed to see that I was such a bad person. The details of the affair are support material for what a bad person I am.



So he should just do without them until you think his behaviour is more understanding?

Really WAW, that is not your call. You owe him this truth and he can respond any way he chooses.

If he decides he doesn't want to be with you, at least you will have enabled him to go without any gnawing unanswered questions.

Gnawing, unanswered questions are what keeps a BS up at night.

He needs the truth. You created this thirst for knowledge and now you withold the water in case some spills on you....



It is difficult to talk to someone who is not listening. I could probably tell the story of my affair to you and you could slowly pull the details out. When I talk to my husband, he attacks every statement I make and says that I am wrong about how I felt at the time. My truth does not make sense because it does not match his belief that I plotted the A from the first time I met POSOM. It doesn't match his belief that I was hunting for an AP ever since we were married. He wants me to admit that his view of the affair is the truth but it is not.



I'll wade in here, because I think - in light of some of what NG and WAW have posted, and in light of my own experience - that I understand what's happening. Please correct me if I'm wrong, WAW - but I'm thinking that the information your BH is asking for is not necessarily details of the adultery - he is asking questions in the vein of "why did you/how could you".

If the BS discounts Dr. H's theories as to why affairs happen, then the WS's explanations of "why/how" are going to be insufficient. In my case, I think even before MB, broken accepted the concept that poor boundaries + unmet needs + allowing someone else to meet needs = affair, when he thought I'd "only" had an EA. However, once he knew the truth about my adultery, that in combination with my persistent lying was enough to make the "she is evil" theory outweigh anything else.

I don't know - am I on the mark here, or way off?


Explaining the why/how is an impossible task but WAW is unwilling to give the specific details of What/where/when until she persuades her BH her motives of why/how were not evil or premeditated.

My point was simply that she needs to put that to one side and provide him with the details of where/what/when immediately.

If he considers her to be evil and premediated, she can disagree, and so can we, but she must accept the consequences of changing his view of her.



No one can tell this BH what to think or feel. It is also awful to use his resentment as a reason to keep the details secret.

The details MUST be revealed regardless. It is the ony just and honourable thing to do.

Regardless of his reaction.

If his unchangeable view is that cheaters are evil people than WAW must give him the truth AND accept his decision that he thinks her evil.

It is very disrespectful not to allow him his own view on this matter.


Last edited by indiegirl; 09/12/12 09:29 AM.

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Originally Posted By: wulffpack_girl
If the BS discounts Dr. H's theories as to why affairs happen, then the WS's explanations of "why/how" are going to be insufficient.


There is a vicious circle here in that the BH wants WaW's reasons in her own words - not Dr Harley's theories.

Now she has protested that whatever she says is disbelieved. Well of course it is because she hasnt yet been honest about the basic details, yet.

Only a fool would believe someone who is still hiding the truth.

If WAW were to provide all the facts and the full and complete truth of where/what/when then she will have made herself into someone slightly more worthy of being believed. But she will still be someone who lied to this man quite extensively and he will wince at the idea of believing her and being made a fool of again.

If she follows her revelation of the details with consistently believable actions and proofs of honesty, then the BH is in a position to believe her theories as to how/why.

Putting her (now believable account) next to Dr Harly's theory's, he will see that MB theories came to pass in RL in his WW's example.

WaW believes Dr Harley because she has lived through his theories, and knows what is true and what isn't.

Her BH is still being kept in the dark and thus does not know what to beleive.

Right now he cannot be expected to believe her, or Dr Harley.

Last edited by indiegirl; 09/12/12 09:31 AM.

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Originally Posted By: WhoAreWE
O&H is generally important to my husband.


As a BS with a high O&H need I must warn you you are draining his lovebank at a most rapid rate by refusing to be honest. If you have a high O&H need, it is deeply hurtful to be distrusted and told a patronising, cleaned up version of events.


Originally Posted By: WhoAreWE
I think it was one of my biggest trouble areas. I never felt safe saying what I felt. I am working hard on saying what I think without worrying about the judgement that may come. It is just a momentary judgement but not being upfront leads to long term issues.

There was a thread where the man's girlfriend was a "pleaser". She did everything to make him happy. Then she had an affair and he still defended her as being so "perfect". I feel in some way that I was trying maintain a "perfect" image.


Yes!!! I really want this lightbulb to come on for you.

We do NOT have the entitlement to give our spouses false, edited, misleading information.

We are not allowed to hide the truth.

When we love someone we give them the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth - and let the chips fall where they may.


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I was thinking he had the details Indie, but I very well may have misread - in any event, if he lacks details, then sit down and give him a timeline. broken and I went through cell phone records, bank statements, and credit card statements together along with time sheets from work and my calendars. I also ended up getting a poly done.

One mistake I made was when broken first asked for a chronology of my adultery, I wrote more about how I felt throughout the affair. What he wanted was the specifics on dates and places. I'd gotten the name wrong of one of the restaurants I met POSOM at - I knew where it was but had the name of the place wrong - so when he searched on the internet for the place, of course it didn't exist and he believed it was more evidence of lying. You must be patient as he asks for the details, and do not become defensive in any way, but if in any way you feel threatened or unsafe, then the two of you need to take a break.

Even at one year out, I had forgotten a lot of the minutiae - I couldn't remember what POSOM and I had talked about on a particular day, for example. However, we could still piece together a timeline that allowed broken to pinpoint the dates and times that physical meetings took place. The poly was my effort to prove the number of times sexual contact occurred. Moot point for us now as I have no marriage left, but I totally understand why broken didn't believe me - as I now look back and see how irrational I had become during my adultery I wouldn't have believed me either.

But yes, details first. Your BH will have to come to accept the premises of Dr. H to wrap his mind around the why/how, though. Some BS's can never accept that, and will forever view the FWS as evil. And that is their choice, and their right...and when you think about it, it's what we deserve...it's only by grace - that we do NOT deserve - that we are given forgiveness and a second chance.

t/j...For some reason this thread is triggering me this morning...not your fault, WAW, I'll just chalk it up to me having a wierd morning.

Last edited by wulffpack_girl; 09/12/12 10:02 AM. Reason: added info

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Originally Posted By: wulffpack_girl
I was thinking he had the details Indie, but I very well may have misread - in any event, if he lacks details, then sit down and give him a timeline. broken and I went through cell phone records, bank statements, and credit card statements together along with time sheets from work and my calendars. I also ended up getting a poly done.


Wonderful tips, WPG, just what the doctor ordered (literally). Sorry this is triggering you, I do think you are a beacon for many WWs.


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Originally Posted By: indiegirl

If WAW were to provide all the facts and the full and complete truth of where/what/when then she will have made herself into someone slightly more worthy of being believed. But she will still be someone who lied to this man quite extensively and he will wince at the idea of believing her and being made a fool of again.


My BS has the where/what/when.


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Originally Posted By: indiegirl
Originally Posted By: WhoAreWE
O&H is generally important to my husband.


As a BS with a high O&H need I must warn you you are draining his lovebank at a most rapid rate by refusing to be honest. If you have a high O&H need, it is deeply hurtful to be distrusted and told a patronising, cleaned up version of events.


I was trying to say regardless of being a BS, O&H was important to my husband. That is another reason the A hurt so much.

Originally Posted By: indiegirl

Originally Posted By: WhoAreWE
I think it was one of my biggest trouble areas. I never felt safe saying what I felt. I am working hard on saying what I think without worrying about the judgement that may come. It is just a momentary judgement but not being upfront leads to long term issues.

There was a thread where the man's girlfriend was a "pleaser". She did everything to make him happy. Then she had an affair and he still defended her as being so "perfect". I feel in some way that I was trying maintain a "perfect" image.


Yes!!! I really want this lightbulb to come on for you.

We do NOT have the entitlement to give our spouses false, edited, misleading information.

We are not allowed to hide the truth.

When we love someone we give them the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth - and let the chips fall where they may.


Yes and when we love someone we should not have AO, DJ, and SD. Those behaviors breed fear. That is why I am focusing on working through love busters.


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When did this happen? You said you did not want to be retriggered by those details?

So, OK, does he believe the details? Are those questions answered in full to his satisfaction? Is a polygraph required? Has one been offered?

There have also been WSs who have attempted to prove their veracity with a post nup which states they would get nothing if another infidelity happened.

Right now your H fears you ARE a bad person who will hurt him again. He needs proof to the contrary.

WFG's tips re going through accounts/statements etc may also help if he does not beleive the what/where/when

If he DOES believe the what/where/when but does not accept the rationale of how/why, is anything other than evilness, that's his call.

He's not going anywhere right now though, which suggests you have an opportunity to prove yourself with future actions.

What you do with that opportunity is up to you. I would suggest providing as much truth, and proof of that of that truth as humanly possible.

And accepting his right to have the judgement he does until proved otherwise.


What would you do if you were not afraid?

"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.

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WAW, there's a scene in a Mel Gibson movie where the bad guy has him bound and soaking wet, and is planning to torture him with a car battery and jumper cables. Villain says, "We're going to do this until you tell me all that you know." And Hero says, "Well, that's real bad because I don't know nothing!"

It may be time for you and FBH to settle on your taking a polygraph. There are risks involved, especially given the mind's treatment of "repressed" memories such as you are claiming. Without the kind of summary and terminal accord on what information FBH wants vs what you are able to supply, though, the jumper cables will stay busy. (And, NO, I'm not suggesting FBH is a villain!)

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Originally Posted By: WhoAreWE
[Yes and when we love someone we should not have AO, DJ, and SD. Those behaviors breed fear. That is why I am focusing on working through love busters.


So glad you said this, because these:

Originally Posted By: WhoAreWE
. I fear my H is labeling himself "broken", like your H, and will not accept that he can be fixed.


Originally Posted By: WhoAreWE
He wants me to admit that his view of the affair is the truth but it is not.



Sound very much like DJs and SDs. There is no need for him to accept anything. It is unlikely he wants you to be evil.

If you let go of the rope in this tug of war the two of you are having on who should accept what, you may get further.

When he says he doesnt have to accept your reasoning, or MB, - agree with him. Respect his right not to have accept one word of it.


What would you do if you were not afraid?

"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.

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Originally Posted By: indiegirl
When did this happen? You said you did not want to be retriggered by those details?

So, OK, does he believe the details? Are those questions answered in full to his satisfaction? Is a polygraph required? Has one been offered?

There have also been WSs who have attempted to prove their veracity with a post nup which states they would get nothing if another infidelity happened.

Right now your H fears you ARE a bad person who will hurt him again. He needs proof to the contrary.

WFG's tips re going through accounts/statements etc may also help if he does not beleive the what/where/when

If he DOES believe the what/where/when but does not accept the rationale of how/why, is anything other than evilness, that's his call.

He's not going anywhere right now though, which suggests you have an opportunity to prove yourself with future actions.

What you do with that opportunity is up to you. I would suggest providing as much truth, and proof of that of that truth as humanly possible.

And accepting his right to have the judgement he does until proved otherwise.


My BS knows more than me. He says "you said...". I say "then that is what happened". I am not going back to relive the moments just to confirm what I said.

There was a thread where a new BS poster asked a FWW if she ever thought back to the "good" moments of the affair. A vet popped on to say you should never ask a FWW on this forum to do that. My BS is constantly asking me to go back and remember how good I felt at this point or that point in the affair. I do not see the value in that for him or for me.


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Originally Posted By: WhoAreWE
Originally Posted By: indiegirl
When did this happen? You said you did not want to be retriggered by those details?

So, OK, does he believe the details? Are those questions answered in full to his satisfaction? Is a polygraph required? Has one been offered?

There have also been WSs who have attempted to prove their veracity with a post nup which states they would get nothing if another infidelity happened.

Right now your H fears you ARE a bad person who will hurt him again. He needs proof to the contrary.

WFG's tips re going through accounts/statements etc may also help if he does not beleive the what/where/when

If he DOES believe the what/where/when but does not accept the rationale of how/why, is anything other than evilness, that's his call.

He's not going anywhere right now though, which suggests you have an opportunity to prove yourself with future actions.

What you do with that opportunity is up to you. I would suggest providing as much truth, and proof of that of that truth as humanly possible.

And accepting his right to have the judgement he does until proved otherwise.


My BS knows more than me. He says "you said...". I say "then that is what happened". I am not going back to relive the moments just to confirm what I said.

There was a thread where a new BS poster asked a FWW if she ever thought back to the "good" moments of the affair. A vet popped on to say you should never ask a FWW on this forum to do that. My BS is constantly asking me to go back and remember how good I felt at this point or that point in the affair. I do not see the value in that for him or for me.



Yes that was Pepperband, and she was 100 per cent right.

But a BS is not going to let this go when they dont understand/believe. He says "you said" as though he does not believe you.

He is probably using a cross examining technique to try and see if your answers are consistent each time he asks. Because he needs proof.

Proof, like a poly could help stop this need. Do you have any emails/texts in which you described your feelings during the A? Has everything like accounts, messages, letters been given to your H?

A BS can't drop it until he has the full story.


What would you do if you were not afraid?

"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.

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WAW, there's some other things that would bear repeating here.

The BS drives the recovery bus; the FWS provides the power. That's shorthand for what your BS says he needs, he needs. You have no say in whether it's unreasonable, or if your feel you cannot bring yourself to give it (again). If he were here, we could work with him as we have with other BSs in the past, counselling him that eventually the BS will have to admit that any details still missing are not material to the question at hand. We would explain; we would advise; we would counsel; we would console. What we would NOT do is DECIDE - for him - that he has all that he needs. If WE as uninvolved parties would not do that, my friend, you certainly have no standing to do so.

You, however, ARE here, so we can explain, advise, counsel, and console you that all of this pain-flushing discussion is NOTHING more than that portion of JC that you must provide. Any negotiation on that serves only to raise FBH's defensive barriers that it is very much to your benefit to tear down.

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Originally Posted By: NeverGuessed
WAW, there's some other things that would bear repeating here.

The BS drives the recovery bus; the FWS provides the power. That's shorthand for what your BS says he needs, he needs. You have no say in whether it's unreasonable, or if your feel you cannot bring yourself to give it (again). If he were here, we could work with him as we have with other BSs in the past, counselling him that eventually the BS will have to admit that any details still missing are not material to the question at hand. We would explain; we would advise; we would counsel; we would console. What we would NOT do is DECIDE - for him - that he has all that he needs. If WE as uninvolved parties would not do that, my friend, you certainly have no standing to do so.

You, however, ARE here, so we can explain, advise, counsel, and console you that all of this pain-flushing discussion is NOTHING more than that portion of JC that you must provide. Any negotiation on that serves only to raise FBH's defensive barriers that it is very much to your benefit to tear down.


x2. well said.


What would you do if you were not afraid?

"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.

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"My BS knows more than me. He says "you said...". I say "then that is what happened". I am not going back to relive the moments just to confirm what I said."


This your BH needing to see if his dectective work, what you answered the first time, matches up when he asked you about that detail again.

This is a BH working to gain the truth, confirm that what he has been told is the truth, rebuilding the broken trust.

Trust will never be rebuilt if the BH feels the WW is holding back knowledge about the affair.


"There was a thread where a new BS poster asked a FWW if she ever thought back to the "good" moments of the affair. A vet popped on to say you should never ask a FWW on this forum to do that. My BS is constantly asking me to go back and remember how good I felt at this point or that point in the affair. I do not see the value in that for him or for me."


The BH is searching to see if his WW is holding back anything about the affair.

How ever this is a double edged sword. WW is trying to maintain NC with the OM to end her addiction to the OM.

I don't think there is any addiction treatment program that wants the addict to recall the good feelings their drug of choice gave them, in this case the OM.

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Originally Posted By: WhoAreWE
My BS is constantly asking me to go back and remember how good I felt at this point or that point in the affair. I do not see the value in that for him or for me.



Speaking for myself, I was haunted by the possibility that my WH might be holding on to happy memories of the affair and OW.


HAUNTED.


You are right that there is no value to discuss your feelings during the affair because it was a fantasy. A cruel and hurtful fantasy.


It is, however, valuable for him to see and "believe" that you no longer hold on to any fond memories of OM and the time you stole from BH to be with OM.


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And nobody would advise the BH to do that, if he were here.

However if he needs it, he needs it and WAW has to play the hand she's been dealt. Being stubborn and refusing his requests is making matters worse.

She should be honest, if she feels she is being triggered, of course. She can also respond with respectful requests of her own... starting with 'How would you feel'

How would you feel....if I wrote this down for posterity to prevent us going over it so many times

How would you feel....if I was to provide better proof of what happened rather than going over it so much?

How would you feel... about us discussing options that would reduce the amount of talking about the A?

How would you feel.... about giving me a better idea of what you need when you ask me these questions? What would make you feel it is at now at rest?

It's going to be a long, hard slog for WAW. But it's all part of JC and she has steel herself.


What would you do if you were not afraid?

"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.

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Originally Posted By: indiegirl

Proof, like a poly could help stop this need. Do you have any emails/texts in which you described your feelings during the A? Has everything like accounts, messages, letters been given to your H?


Fortunately or unfortunately, there are no records associated with the affair. That is one of the things my BS uses as proof that the A was so well thought out, that I left no trail. My AP was a co-worker, our conversations we inappropriate, our e-mail was work related.


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I needed it. I NEEDED to not only know that I had all the details, but to feel that H would do anything in his power to give them to me, and do whatever I needed to move on, regardless of how uncomfortable it was for him or how I reacted to it.

If he had not been willing to give me any info I asked, or said that it was 'too painful' for HIM to drudge that up in his memory, well, read page one of my thread, the one where I talk about the little devil that had run amuck with my life....I would still be on that page.

And if my efforts to obtain info would come back with any resistance on his part, I can guarentee you a few AO's and a host of other equally evil lovebusters would have spewed forth from thy lips.

My point is, you are in a cycle that needs to be broken. You fear being completely and willingly O&H with your BH, because when you are (with hesitation) he love busts all over the place, and therefore you are gun shy to be O&H with him, which makes him resentful and want to love bust all over the place....

Someone needs to be the hero and break through that cycle. That someone needs to be you WAW.

As Indie said, ask him what he needs to feel like he has all of the information he needs. Give him WHATEVER HE NEEDS honestly and enthusiastically, regardless of what his response will be. You can get through that, and there is a road to recovery on the other side.

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Originally Posted By: TheRoad

I don't think there is any addiction treatment program that wants the addict to recall the good feelings their drug of choice gave them, in this case the OM.


If I was an alcoholic I think my husband would task me to drink one drink a week to prove that I had my addiction under control.


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I have very recently stopped talking about the A. For a long time it was details, gory sexual details I wanted to know. But in the last few months it has been, as in your BH's case, the do you still think about (OW1 or OW2), do you think of this as a good experience, etc. I asked the same questions over and over and H always answered them, always the same. It wasn't so much that I didn't know what the answer was, for me I think it was a reassurance of some sort. Reassurance that it was ME he wanted to be with.

Try to look past the anger, hostility, etc. and see that what your BH is really looking for is soothing, if that is the right word. He is coming from a place of intense pain, regardless of how it is coming out. Do whatever is in your power to help him heal from that pain.

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Originally Posted By: WhoAreWE
Originally Posted By: TheRoad

I don't think there is any addiction treatment program that wants the addict to recall the good feelings their drug of choice gave them, in this case the OM.


If I was an alcoholic I think my husband would task me to drink one drink a week to prove that I had my addiction under control.


Don't go there, WAW...that is a DJ.


FWW

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WAW,
I hope you can endure a thread-jack:

I have very recently stopped talking about the A. - unwritten
hurray UW, I was at one time very sure you would never reach that point. Good on you, Ma'am!

<End of TJ>

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Now in my case I did not have to worry about triggering in terms of H wanting to go back to an AP, considering it was a decade old A. Is that something that happens with you? Do you still struggle with the addiction piece?

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Originally Posted By: pokerface
Originally Posted By: WhoAreWE
My BS is constantly asking me to go back and remember how good I felt at this point or that point in the affair. I do not see the value in that for him or for me.



Speaking for myself, I was haunted by the possibility that my WH might be holding on to happy memories of the affair and OW.


HAUNTED.


You are right that there is no value to discuss your feelings during the affair because it was a fantasy. A cruel and hurtful fantasy.


It is, however, valuable for him to see and "believe" that you no longer hold on to any fond memories of OM and the time you stole from BH to be with OM.


BS definitely accuses me of holding on to fond memories. Perhaps that is why I make sure to not have any memories. Now I see the ridiculousness of him then asking me to remember them.


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Start T/J

Thank you NG. Really, the problem with my thread is I only pound out thoughts on it when I am not getting my UA time, EN's met, am frustrated by some lack of progress on H's part, in a bad mood, ready to throw in the towel, and sound like I have made little to no progress. The reality for most days is quite different. I just never seem to want to write the good stuff.

My attitude, on MOST days, has made a 180 since my first post. My effort level, on MOST days, has come along with it. But, I still have my days...

Work in progress.

End T/J

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Originally Posted By: wulffpack_girl
Originally Posted By: WhoAreWE
Originally Posted By: TheRoad

I don't think there is any addiction treatment program that wants the addict to recall the good feelings their drug of choice gave them, in this case the OM.


If I was an alcoholic I think my husband would task me to drink one drink a week to prove that I had my addiction under control.


Don't go there, WAW...that is a DJ.


I was not saying it to be mean. I think that it is important to him that when an addiction is overcome that you have control over it rather than avoid it. He has been able to do that and expects the same of me. Part of what scares him is that he thinks there is a part of me that I cannot control.


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unwritten,

Any time you want to say something positive about your marriage you are welcome to post on my thread.


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Originally Posted By: unwritten
Now in my case I did not have to worry about triggering in terms of H wanting to go back to an AP, considering it was a decade old A. Is that something that happens with you? Do you still struggle with the addiction piece?


I am not struggling with the addiction. I am not pining for the POSOM. He is not a part of my life (except as needed by my BS).

My AP is a POS. I cannot check to see what level my Love Bank for POSOM is at. Has my intellectual knowledge that no friend of mine would participate with me in the destruction of my family emptied it? I hope so. If I ever ran into him again, I hope to feel nothing but the disgust I feel about the A.

Do I still longing for someone who admires me and will have a conversation without DJ, AO, or SD. Heck yea! But I got all the time in the world for wait for him to believe that I am here for him.


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Originally Posted By: WhoAreWE


BS definitely accuses me of holding on to fond memories. Perhaps that is why I make sure to not have any memories. Now I see the ridiculousness of him then asking me to remember them.


I did not mean to imply that your BH is being ridiculous. His insecurity is completely normal and to be expected.

I was just trying to help you understand his internal conflict.

I don't understand how you can "make sure not to have any memories." That is not believable. What your BH needs is for you to understand and "get" that there is nothing warm, fuzzy, or special about OM and your escapades together. It was cruel and selfish.

It bothers me that you are using the word ridiculous here.


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Originally Posted By: WhoAreWE
Originally Posted By: pokerface
Originally Posted By: WhoAreWE
My BS is constantly asking me to go back and remember how good I felt at this point or that point in the affair. I do not see the value in that for him or for me.



Speaking for myself, I was haunted by the possibility that my WH might be holding on to happy memories of the affair and OW.


HAUNTED.


You are right that there is no value to discuss your feelings during the affair because it was a fantasy. A cruel and hurtful fantasy.


It is, however, valuable for him to see and "believe" that you no longer hold on to any fond memories of OM and the time you stole from BH to be with OM.


BS definitely accuses me of holding on to fond memories. Perhaps that is why I make sure to not have any memories. Now I see the ridiculousness of him then asking me to remember them.


Then try a respectful request to tweak focus from the past into the present day.

"How would you feel.. If instead I talked about how I feel about YOU /how I feel about POSOM TODAY."

But if he wants to go over your 'evidence' again, that is not ridiculous it is a man who is in a desperate search for identifiable truth.

The evidence is all gone due to work emails, so all you have to offer him is patient explanation and whatever else, like a poly, you can creatively come up with to offer him.

Its hard, but its JC to give him what he needs.


What would you do if you were not afraid?

"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.

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Originally Posted By: WhoAreWE

If I was an alcoholic I think my husband would task me to drink one drink a week to prove that I had my addiction under control..


Has he ever said that this would be his approach to alcoholism?


What would you do if you were not afraid?

"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.

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Originally Posted By: pokerface
Originally Posted By: WhoAreWE


BS definitely accuses me of holding on to fond memories. Perhaps that is why I make sure to not have any memories. Now I see the ridiculousness of him then asking me to remember them.


I did not mean to imply that your BH is being ridiculous. His insecurity is completely normal and to be expected.

I was just trying to help you understand his internal conflict.

I don't understand how you can "make sure not to have any memories." That is not believable. What your BH needs is for you to understand and "get" that there is nothing warm, fuzzy, or special about OM and your escapades together. It was cruel and selfish.

It bothers me that you are using the word ridiculous here.


I did not think you thought my BS was ridiculous. I was just expressing my own frustration with the external conflict caused by his internal conflict.

How did I "erase" my memory? The year after DDay was very abusive. My BS verbally abused me for hours every day and night for months. I coped by burying the cause of the abuse. The full out assault has ended but I do not feel the A is a safe topic.

This forum seems to view that BS have a right to abuse their FWS for life (if the BS chooses). As long as no physical abuse occurs it is part of just compensation. If the FWS cannot handle the consequences of her A then leave. Everyone has a right to an opinion and mine is that the line for where abuse is no longer acceptable is before physical abuse. It took a lot of abuse before I accepted that. You really have to suffer abuse before you know what it is like and how you will respond to it.

Maybe this is the topic I need to take to the radio show. I just can't seem to encapsulate it well. Describe the abuse. Describe the time since the abuse. Then ask whether I should discuss the details of the A again to test whether my BS might become a crazy man again?


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Originally Posted By: indiegirl
Originally Posted By: WhoAreWE

If I was an alcoholic I think my husband would task me to drink one drink a week to prove that I had my addiction under control..


Has he ever said that this would be his approach to alcoholism?


For himself, yes because he has been accused of being an alcoholic before.


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Originally Posted By: indiegirl

Then try a respectful request to tweak focus from the past into the present day.

"How would you feel.. If instead I talked about how I feel about YOU /how I feel about POSOM TODAY."


I am trying to implement ideas like yours from Love Busters.

Originally Posted By: indiegirl

But if he wants to go over your 'evidence' again, that is not ridiculous it is a man who is in a desperate search for identifiable truth.

The evidence is all gone due to work emails, so all you have to offer him is patient explanation and whatever else, like a poly, you can creatively come up with to offer him.

Its hard, but its JC to give him what he needs.



I have all my work e-mails. They just aren't the type of message you asked about, ones that would show feelings. They would show frequency of communication. I would essentially send messages about nothing important just to send a message. There was a lot more one-on-one message traffic that had incidental "how is your day going" stuff.

I used the e-mail a long time ago to reconstruct the timeline. Not that there was much content but the context triggered memories.

It is an option. I guess BS and I need to brainstorm a plan and figure out an option that we are both enthusiastic about (or at least that won't give me chest pains).


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Originally Posted By: WhoAreWE


This forum seems to view that BS have a right to abuse their FWS for life (if the BS chooses). As long as no physical abuse occurs it is part of just compensation. If the FWS cannot handle the consequences of her A then leave.


I'm pretty sure no one said this.

People were discussing offering honesty freely, not taking abuse.

What abuse are you talking about?


What would you do if you were not afraid?

"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.

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Originally Posted By: WhoAreWE
Originally Posted By: indiegirl

Then try a respectful request to tweak focus from the past into the present day.

"How would you feel.. If instead I talked about how I feel about YOU /how I feel about POSOM TODAY."


I am trying to implement ideas like yours from Love Busters.

Originally Posted By: indiegirl

But if he wants to go over your 'evidence' again, that is not ridiculous it is a man who is in a desperate search for identifiable truth.

The evidence is all gone due to work emails, so all you have to offer him is patient explanation and whatever else, like a poly, you can creatively come up with to offer him.

Its hard, but its JC to give him what he needs.



I have all my work e-mails. They just aren't the type of message you asked about, ones that would show feelings. They would show frequency of communication. I would essentially send messages about nothing important just to send a message. There was a lot more one-on-one message traffic that had incidental "how is your day going" stuff.

I used the e-mail a long time ago to reconstruct the timeline. Not that there was much content but the context triggered memories.

It is an option. I guess BS and I need to brainstorm a plan and figure out an option that we are both enthusiastic about (or at least that won't give me chest pains).


If the emails typify the things you talked about, show it to yoour BH.

He probably has a very different idea and he needs accurate information like this.


What would you do if you were not afraid?

"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.

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Originally Posted By: WhoAreWE
Originally Posted By: indiegirl
Originally Posted By: WhoAreWE

If I was an alcoholic I think my husband would task me to drink one drink a week to prove that I had my addiction under control..


Has he ever said that this would be his approach to alcoholism?


For himself, yes because he has been accused of being an alcoholic before.


Do you have concerns that he is?

Who else does?

Does he agree?


What would you do if you were not afraid?

"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.

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Originally Posted By: NeverGuessed
WAW, there's some other things that would bear repeating here.

The BS drives the recovery bus; the FWS provides the power. That's shorthand for what your BS says he needs, he needs. You have no say in whether it's unreasonable, or if your feel you cannot bring yourself to give it (again). If he were here, we could work with him as we have with other BSs in the past, counselling him that eventually the BS will have to admit that any details still missing are not material to the question at hand. We would explain; we would advise; we would counsel; we would console. What we would NOT do is DECIDE - for him - that he has all that he needs. If WE as uninvolved parties would not do that, my friend, you certainly have no standing to do so.

You, however, ARE here, so we can explain, advise, counsel, and console you that all of this pain-flushing discussion is NOTHING more than that portion of JC that you must provide. Any negotiation on that serves only to raise FBH's defensive barriers that it is very much to your benefit to tear down.


The only thing I have to fear is fear itself. And it is eating me alive. I have to get past my fear of talking to him. I have my own defensive barrier that I am afraid to take down.

I am just not sure that the affair is the best place to start. But if I get past that one then I shouldn't ever be afraid again.


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Originally Posted By: WhoAreWE
As long as no physical abuse occurs it is part of just compensation.



This is quite a DJ to posters. I cannot think of one poster who would say that.

AOs for example are considered a complete no-no in MB.


Originally Posted By: WhoAreWE

Everyone has a right to an opinion and mine is that the line for where abuse is no longer acceptable is before physical abuse. It took a lot of abuse before I accepted that. You really have to suffer abuse before you know what it is like and how you will respond to it.



But what is this abuse you are talking about it and HOW are you responding to it?

We can't guess.


What would you do if you were not afraid?

"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.

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Originally Posted By: WhoAreWE
The only thing I have to fear is fear itself. And it is eating me alive. I have to get past my fear of talking to him. I have my own defensive barrier that I am afraid to take down.


But you have implied you are afraid of HIM?

Are you? Or of 'fear itself' or your own 'barrier'


What would you do if you were not afraid?

"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.

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Originally Posted By: indiegirl
Originally Posted By: WhoAreWE


This forum seems to view that BS have a right to abuse their FWS for life (if the BS chooses). As long as no physical abuse occurs it is part of just compensation. If the FWS cannot handle the consequences of her A then leave.


I'm pretty sure no one said this.

People were discussing offering honesty freely, not taking abuse.

What abuse are you talking about?


Dr. H defines all Love Busters as abuse. I think he definition is pretty strict but it is convenient.

I cannot say one sentence about the affair without my husband attacking what I said. If I say one thing I will spend the next two days being educated on how my thinking was wrong during the affair (which I freely admit to) and that how I described the past is wrong which proves I have not changed so I cannot be trusted.

And with that encouragement I am suppose to answer all of his questions over again.

It is all just words, no big deal. Mine are wrong. His are right. If I would just repeat what he says we would be able to recover.


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Originally Posted By: WhoAreWE
Originally Posted By: indiegirl
Originally Posted By: WhoAreWE


This forum seems to view that BS have a right to abuse their FWS for life (if the BS chooses). As long as no physical abuse occurs it is part of just compensation. If the FWS cannot handle the consequences of her A then leave.


I'm pretty sure no one said this.

People were discussing offering honesty freely, not taking abuse.

What abuse are you talking about?


Dr. H defines all Love Busters as abuse. I think he definition is pretty strict but it is convenient.

I cannot say one sentence about the affair without my husband attacking what I said. If I say one thing I will spend the next two days being educated on how my thinking was wrong during the affair (which I freely admit to) and that how I described the past is wrong which proves I have not changed so I cannot be trusted.

And with that encouragement I am suppose to answer all of his questions over again.

It is all just words, no big deal. Mine are wrong. His are right. If I would just repeat what he says we would be able to recover.


I'm sorry, I can't make head nor tail of this.

What does 'It is all just words, no big deal' mean? Are you quoting your H?

Has he asked you specifically to repeat his words or is that just your opinion of what he wants?

I'm struggling to separate fact from perspective and whether it is your perspective or his you mean.

WHAT specifically has he done which constitutes abuse?

Last edited by indiegirl; 09/12/12 05:30 PM.

What would you do if you were not afraid?

"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.

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A different approach to this. Seems like your WH is stuck. BTDT. When I have been stuck on A details/emotions/etc. it has not necessarily been the details I was stuck on. Rather, lack of recovery work, UA time, need meeting, effort on the part of H to work toward a better marriage. That kept me stuck in the old M, which is the M where I was married to a less than trustworthy spouse, and had the potential to get hurt again.

So starting at the beginning. Have you put rock solid EP's and boundaries in place to protect you from having another A? Are their holes in your boundaries that would make your BH feel insecure?

I can't remember if you said your BH embraced the MB principles/program or not? Does he understand and embrace the concepts of EP's, UA time, EN's, etc? Is he able to communicate with you regarding these topics, without the hostility?

What are you doing to ensure that you are getting the necessary UA time in? I believe you said you were lacking on this.

Are you checking in with your BH to ask if you are meeting his most important EN's in the way that he needs them met?

Have you thought about the online program, where you have accountability to working the program and access to a coach, or counseling with the coaching center, to get through some of these main issues. I know this is something we have on our agenda.

If all of these things are done, perhaps it will pave the way for more successful and less abusive conversations regarding the A, if not alleviate the need for some of them all together.

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He is reluctant to embrace MB, Unwritten.


What would you do if you were not afraid?

"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.

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What I am not getting a feel for is how much WAW is embracing it. Not that WS always drives the recovery bus, but it certainly seems that in this case it is necessary.

I can tell WAW you are educated on the principles, just wondering about the application and what you are doing to bring your BH into that fold. From what I hear a session with SH could really work to your benefit if he is reluctant.

You have followed my thread, and I think RQ's too, where we have WH's who are 'willing' to embrace MB but do not actually act on it/do the work, put 100% of their effort in, etc. and I am wondering if you fall into this category.

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T/J

Indie jump over to that new thread here in Recovery about POJA, you are a POJA master and I think you can really help. Thanks.

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Of course.

WAW, if your husband believes in POJA and the like, as you have said...

Surely he's up for POJAing a solution on how he gets his 'truth' from you. The method of proof, I mean.

Should also mean he wouldn't be too much opposed to Steve Harley?

But I'm worried by these references to abuse and alcoholism. If this is a significant problem.. It can be harder to fix than the A. Dr H advises separation in these circumstances which is why I ask for details.,


What would you do if you were not afraid?

"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.

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Originally Posted By: WhoAreWE


This forum seems to view that BS have a right to abuse their FWS for life (if the BS chooses). As long as no physical abuse occurs it is part of just compensation. If the FWS cannot handle the consequences of her A then leave. Everyone has a right to an opinion and mine is that the line for where abuse is no longer acceptable is before physical abuse. It took a lot of abuse before I accepted that. You really have to suffer abuse before you know what it is like and how you will respond to it.



No one said that or even remotely suggested it. Interesting how this got turned around to make the MB posters the bad guys.


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Originally Posted By: pokerface

No one said that or even remotely suggested it. Interesting how this got turned around to make the MB posters the bad guys.



All, I am sorry for going off on a tangent. I avoided discussing that topic because it upsets me so much that I cannot even think. My commentary about the forum was not about this thread. I read a lot of threads and some have really triggered my sensitivity to abuse.


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I know I have to do something to free my husband of his unanswered questions. It will take me time. I will take all of the input I have gotten and work with it over time. This is my second major hurdle. And progress is stalled until I do something. UA time cannot be built with my BS in this state. I will do it someday. I'll let you know.


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Oh good.

Lots of other unanswered questions here, though WAW, which if are not dealt with could threaten your recovery plan and how well we advise you.

You have said that your husband is abusive, just short of actual physical abuse, and that you fear him, but you have not told us in what way the abuse manifests.

You have mentioned that there are some concerns that he is an alcoholic, but not told us whether you or whether he himself considers himself to be one. Or who did.

Can you elaborate?

You can't recover with someone who is abusive/alcoholic along the path you are on so these are quite important questions and we need a full picture please.


What would you do if you were not afraid?

"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.

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It was significant that you stopped posting immediately I asked you a question WAW, after having been very active until then. When you came back, you did not answer my question. Why was that?

There is something that you are not revealing here. I think that is because you are afraid, but you must see that it is significant and that you cannot be advised properly without talking about it. You are sending posters like indie round in circles because they don't understand your cryptic messages.


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WAW, if there is abuse or alcoholism in your marriage, those must be dealt with first.

I'm still kind of mulling over the comment you made about how if you were accused of being an alcoholic, your BH would want you to have one drink a week to prove your control over the addiction. He's not here to clarify his statement one way or the other, so it's difficult to address...however, if that is the truth, that is someone who does not understand addiction - whether that be addiction to a substance or an AP. broken is a recovered alcoholic with over 20 years sobriety. He is very proud of that, and would never allow himself to drink again because of the risk of relapse. My brother battled a cocaine addiction for years until he finally understood that there was no such thing as "recreational use."

Now, I don't know that broken ever accepted the similarity between affairs and addictions. Regardless, I do - and treat any thoughts/memories/reminders accordingly. It can be a struggle, especially when your needs aren't being met, which is why it is critical to have EPs and boundaries in place. When boundaries become habits, your perspective shifts. As an example, one day last week I was running errands on my lunch. As I walked back to my car, a guy in the parking lot called out, "Hey, you look nice today ma'am." I just smiled, said thanks and kept walking, but for the past week it has been bothering me like a sore tooth. I have joked about it, but couldn't figure out why it made me feel uncomfortable. I was reading Caracal's recent updates (on SAA) and realized why - admiration! Duh! I see it as a testament to MB as to how my perspectives on things have changed, and how I am cognizant of these things now.

As for a FWW accepting abuse, I've never gotten that here. Sure, you may see a poster or two who posits the "you made your bed" mindset, but as a general rule I don't see that at all. In fact, I was the one making excuses for broken's angry outbursts when other posters were advising me to separate - that his AO's were abuse. Yes, there is part of me that desperately wants to do "whatever it takes, as long as it takes," but I do understand that doesn't include submitting to abuse. As NG put it once on my thread, if "whatever it takes as long as it takes" included broken punching me in the face every morning for the rest of my life, would I accept that?

Where you must make a distinction is between a.) actual abuse and b.) normal human reactions to betrayal. Indie's and Sugar's points are if you can elaborate a bit, folks will be able to give you help targeted to your situation. If you are truly afraid of his reaction/response to revelations/answers, then I would suggest doing so in a safe environment, with a third party present.


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Originally Posted By: SugarCane
It was significant that you stopped posting immediately I asked you a question WAW, after having been very active until then. When you came back, you did not answer my question. Why was that?

There is something that you are not revealing here. I think that is because you are afraid, but you must see that it is significant and that you cannot be advised properly without talking about it. You are sending posters like indie round in circles because they don't understand your cryptic messages.



I'm terrible, because I hear this;



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Originally Posted By: wulffpack_girl

Where you must make a distinction is between a.) actual abuse and b.) normal human reactions to betrayal. Indie's and Sugar's points are if you can elaborate a bit, folks will be able to give you help targeted to your situation. If you are truly afraid of his reaction/response to revelations/answers, then I would suggest doing so in a safe environment, with a third party present.


I understand what you guys want but I am not giving the history of the first year. It is over but it still makes me overly emotional and irrational just to think about it so I won't. Having gotten past that I am now dealing with normal human reactions to betrayal.

Since my BS does not want others involved I am thinking that written communication will make me feel safe.


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Originally Posted By: SugarCane
There is something that you are not revealing here.


Yes, you do not have the full history and it is harder to help. I understand that is wasting your time. I have gotten the encouragement I need to move through this next step. I will make a plan and act so we can move on through recovery.


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I am thinking that written communication will make me feel safe.

We did the same thing. (NG was not always the calm, objective soul as you know him today!)

We got a ridiculous lime-green spiral notebook, which was stored when not in use alongside the microwave. Either of us could make use of it to pose a question, or state a position to the other. (We later set a one-page limit to each transaction; I can get verbose.) When the initiator was done, the book was placed in a specific site for the other. My spot was on my desk, her's on her sewing table. The responding spouse would answer and return to the other's site, usually within a day. The book could be kept "in play" while follow-up exchanges were made, and eventually returned to the microwave slot. I do not think we ever verbally spoke about the exchanges. It worked great to separate emotion from necessary discussion - my incipient anger, her native tears.

About a year ago, she was shocked to see the notebook back in play, and opened it to see my suggestion we burn the pages! We did so, and kept the notebook it its spot.

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NG, I like that idea. I guess I will see if my husband would be enthusiastic about it.


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Originally Posted By: WhoAreWE
Originally Posted By: SugarCane
There is something that you are not revealing here.


Yes, you do not have the full history and it is harder to help. I understand that is wasting your time.

WAW, that is not what I am saying and it is not how I feel. (I can't speak for others.)

I am very concerned for you and worried that if you do not tell people here the full context to your questions, you will not receive the help that you should.

I understand your decision to say no more here. I am sorry about it - but I do understand it.


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Originally Posted By: NeverGuessed
(We later set a one-page limit to each transaction; I can get verbose.)


No. Way.

Really, this is a great suggestion on how to keep communicating very volatile information during a volatile time, I think. And doesn't present an opportunity for random lovebusting to occur (well I guess you can do that in writing too, but it is probably a tad more controlled).

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WAW, You seem to have a lot to say on other threads (mine specifically), but are really quite guarded about your own story and struggles. Why is that? What are you afraid of? We are, afterall, just anonmyous online posters who you can run away from with the click of a button.

The more O&H you are regarding your situation on here, the more help you can receive. So why would you not want to lay it all out there? Is it because your H reads your thread too and you are afraid of some sort of backlash? If so can he commit to not reading your thread for awhile so that you can get some help with your situation?

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Hello, hammer!


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Originally Posted By: WhoAreWE
Originally Posted By: SugarCane
There is something that you are not revealing here.


Yes, you do not have the full history and it is harder to help. I understand that is wasting your time. I have gotten the encouragement I need to move through this next step. I will make a plan and act so we can move on through recovery.



To a degree the history can be irrelevant, as the MB plan is rather straight forward.


So - what does your plan look like?

Have you provided your husband with a written list of EP's?

What EP's have you implemented?

Have you done the ENQ and LBQ yet?

Are you going to begin scheduling UA time?


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Originally Posted By: WhoAreWE
Originally Posted By: wulffpack_girl

Where you must make a distinction is between a.) actual abuse and b.) normal human reactions to betrayal. Indie's and Sugar's points are if you can elaborate a bit, folks will be able to give you help targeted to your situation. If you are truly afraid of his reaction/response to revelations/answers, then I would suggest doing so in a safe environment, with a third party present.


I understand what you guys want but I am not giving the history of the first year. It is over but it still makes me overly emotional and irrational just to think about it so I won't. Having gotten past that I am now dealing with normal human reactions to betrayal.

Since my BS does not want others involved I am thinking that written communication will make me feel safe.


WaW, if you're saying he WAS abusive then Dr Hs plan to separate still applies.

His behaviour right now, doesn't matter - if its there its there. And it makes no sense that an abusive spouse has simply switched into being non abusive.

An abusive spouse must undergo a years separation while undergong anger management therapy.

If he has EVER been abusive, then that must be dealt with FIRST before recovery from an A.

And I still hear no answer to my question regarding alcohol.

Quite frankly Waw, I struggle to credit your reasoning.

Telling us basic facts such as whether he ever yelled, put his hands on you aggressively, threw things, made you feel in danger or is dependent on alcohol will not make you fall apart.

We are not asking for a blow by blow script but for basic facts.


What would you do if you were not afraid?

"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.

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The problem, Trip, is that he's evidently not yet received what he deems to be his JC's. Without his satisfaction in that area, it would be difficult to effectively start the MB-engine.

We've seen the probable results before, of a resentful FBS resorting to, "Sure, you're putting on a good show now, but I know it's all an act!" There's a poster on SAA right now that heard that pronounced to their MC, I think yesterday.

Trust (or at least a quiet skepticism) is the sine qua non of almost the entire program.

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Trust...is the sine qua non of almost the entire program.

Well, if there are those here who don't think there are powers at
work on our issues, they need read no farther. I was trying to
fabricate a way to expand on that closing line from the prior post.

Today is the Feast of the Exultation of the True Cross in the RC
faith. Our Priest was addressing the many skeptics who maintain
that if all the identified pieces were assembled, there'd be enough
wood to a housing development, or a flotilla of yachts.

His words stayed with me, and may likely do so for a while:

For those who want not to believe, there is no proof possible!

If "believe" and "trust" can be set as highly similar, the sentence
then becomes "For those who want not to trust, there is no proof
possible!" You might want to determine, probably without direct
questioning, whether Mr WAW actively wants the full recovery
not to work. He would not be the first BH here to feel that way.

None of this changes the efforts or direction of your MB-recovery
program. It might, however, give you another tool for your task.

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WAW what happened to you? Where did you go?

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Originally Posted By: unwritten
WAW, You seem to have a lot to say on other threads (mine specifically), but are really quite guarded about your own story and struggles. Why is that? What are you afraid of? We are, afterall, just anonmyous online posters who you can run away from with the click of a button.

The more O&H you are regarding your situation on here, the more help you can receive. So why would you not want to lay it all out there? Is it because your H reads your thread too and you are afraid of some sort of backlash? If so can he commit to not reading your thread for awhile so that you can get some help with your situation?


unwritten,

I had told my husband I was NOT posting on MB so I did not want to give enough information for him to tell it was me. After my last post I told my husband I was posting. He was very upset about my lying about NOT posting. He saw my posting on this website as a replacement for the affair; my new secret second life. I was going behind his back and getting people other than him to meet my "emotional needs".

In the couple days after I admitting to posting on MB, I also revealed more details about the affair. This disgusted him to the point of saying he can definitely never recover. I put the final nail in the coffin.

I told him a couple days ago if he has really given up on satisfying my "emotional needs" and letting me satisfy his needs then I will continue posting on MB.

So here I am. Hoping to continue cleaning up my side of the fence, which is a horrible mess.


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Originally Posted By: NeverGuessed
The BS drives the recovery bus; the FWS provides the power. That's shorthand for what your BS says he needs, he needs. You have no say in whether it's unreasonable, or if your feel you cannot bring yourself to give it (again). If he were here, we could work with him as we have with other BSs in the past, counseling him that eventually the BS will have to admit that any details still missing are not material to the question at hand. We would explain; we would advise; we would counsel; we would console. What we would NOT do is DECIDE - for him - that he has all that he needs. If WE as uninvolved parties would not do that, my friend, you certainly have no standing to do so.



In order to recover he needs me to admit that the reason I had the affair was because I was hunting for a big fat d*** for years and that I liked having the affair. I need to stop mentioning any bad feelings/thoughts I was having because that had nothing to do with having the affair.


Originally Posted By: NeverGuessed

[color:#3333FF]For those who want not to believe, there is no proof possible!


If "believe" and "trust" can be set as highly similar, the sentence then becomes "For those who want not to trust, there is no proof possible!" You might want to determine, probably without direct questioning, whether Mr WAW actively wants the full recovery not to work. He would not be the first BH here to feel that way.

None of this changes the efforts or direction of your MB-recovery
program. It might, however, give you another tool for your task.


At this moment my DH does not believe recovery is possible. I destroyed our bond forever.


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Originally Posted By: SugarCane
Originally Posted By: WhoAreWE
My memories of the affair were suppressed during a year of "abuse". I buried the memories over many nights of sleeping outside on the ground or walking a lone for miles to be away from my husband raging for hours about what a POS I am.

When was the last time he raise his hand to you, or you to him?


I used to post as IHurtHim

forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2632236&page=1

He last hit me in June then I called the police. He is now in mandatory anger management classes.

I hit him with a glass in October of last year. I should also be in classes but he never involved the police. I am working on my skills of not escalating situations.

I understand Dr. Harley has a 1 year separation policy. Please do not kill my thread (like my last) with this conversation. Much has changed since my last thread and I would like to work on my current issues.


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I want to improve my ability to not Love Buster. This includes not responding to Love Busters with Love Busters. I just want to not hurt my husband any more. He does not want me to do anything for him or with him so I just need to not be hurtful.


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Originally Posted By: WhoAreWE
In the couple days after I admitting to posting on MB, I also revealed more details about the affair. This disgusted him to the point of saying he can definitely never recover. I put the final nail in the coffin.

What kind of details, WAW? You don't have to specify sexual details, but what kind? Did you continue contact with OM after you were supposed to be NC, or what?

You knew better than that after reading and posting here. You knew better than to keep details secret. You know what trickle-truth does to a spouse. Why did you do this?


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Originally Posted By: WhoAreWE
Originally Posted By: SugarCane
Originally Posted By: WhoAreWE
My memories of the affair were suppressed during a year of "abuse". I buried the memories over many nights of sleeping outside on the ground or walking a lone for miles to be away from my husband raging for hours about what a POS I am.

When was the last time he raise his hand to you, or you to him?


I used to post as IHurtHim

forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2632236&page=1

He last hit me in June then I called the police. He is now in mandatory anger management classes.

I hit him with a glass in October of last year. I should also be in classes but he never involved the police. I am working on my skills of not escalating situations.

I understand Dr. Harley has a 1 year separation policy. Please do not kill my thread (like my last) with this conversation. Much has changed since my last thread and I would like to work on my current issues.


I remember your thread now. Boy did sparks fly between some fantastic posters. I thought your posting sound very familiar.


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Originally Posted By: SugarCane
What kind of details, WAW? You don't have to specify sexual details, but what kind? Did you continue contact with OM after you were supposed to be NC, or what?

You knew better than that after reading and posting here. You knew better than to keep details secret. You know what trickle-truth does to a spouse. Why did you do this?


The details were sexual details. It was not about about additional contact.

By the time I found MB, we already had an abusive marriage. The abuse had to end first.

For me, the memories of the affair were buried by the abuse. I took a day to uncover some memories for my husband but there was no value in doing that and I will never go there again.

For my husband, the memories of my affair and things I have said will never fade.

Last edited by WhoAreWE; 10/30/12 09:55 AM.

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I am glad to see you back WAW.

Have you given your BH ALL the details he needs now, and been completely O&H with him about your A and/or any other inappropriate behaviors or A's you have had. You know you will have NO chance at recovery if you don't. None. Zip. Zippo.

If you do not feel physically safe when giving him the information, have someone else present or call him from your car or send him a letter, but he NEEDS to know the truth to have any chance at healing from this, and you need to know that you have been honest for YOU to heal from this regardless of the outcome.

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Would your BH come here and post himself? There are some posters on here who would be excellent resources for him, Markos comes to mind, regarding the AO's etc.

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Originally Posted By: WhoAreWE
By the time I found MB, we already had an abusive marriage. The abuse had to end first.


When was your husband's last angry outburst?


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Originally Posted By: WhoAreWE
Originally Posted By: unwritten
WAW, You seem to have a lot to say on other threads (mine specifically), but are really quite guarded about your own story and struggles. Why is that? What are you afraid of? We are, afterall, just anonmyous online posters who you can run away from with the click of a button.

The more O&H you are regarding your situation on here, the more help you can receive. So why would you not want to lay it all out there? Is it because your H reads your thread too and you are afraid of some sort of backlash? If so can he commit to not reading your thread for awhile so that you can get some help with your situation?


unwritten,

I had told my husband I was NOT posting on MB so I did not want to give enough information for him to tell it was me. After my last post I told my husband I was posting. He was very upset about my lying about NOT posting. He saw my posting on this website as a replacement for the affair; my new secret second life. I was going behind his back and getting people other than him to meet my "emotional needs".

In the couple days after I admitting to posting on MB, I also revealed more details about the affair. This disgusted him to the point of saying he can definitely never recover. I put the final nail in the coffin.

I told him a couple days ago if he has really given up on satisfying my "emotional needs" and letting me satisfy his needs then I will continue posting on MB.

So here I am. Hoping to continue cleaning up my side of the fence, which is a horrible mess.


I didn't read your entire previous thread, but enough to see that he is definitely NOT on board with posting here.

I am curious what the veterans think about this. If a BS states that a WS should NOT expose, NOT seek MB guidance, etc. and that is non negotiable, what should a WS who is attempting to use MB as a guidance for recovery do???

It is a real shame that he is not on board with the MB forums. If he read for even a small amount of time he would see that it is not a coddling forum to WS's, and that you would be held accountable for your actions more so than anywhere else IRL.

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Originally Posted By: WhoAreWE


In the couple days after I admitting to posting on MB, I also revealed more details about the affair. This disgusted him to the point of saying he can definitely never recover. I put the final nail in the coffin.

I told him a couple days ago if he has really given up on satisfying my "emotional needs" and letting me satisfy his needs then I will continue posting on MB.

So here I am. Hoping to continue cleaning up my side of the fence, which is a horrible mess.


I would highly recommend the following actions.

1) Provide your BH with every last detail about your A. Do not leave anything out. Come clean, once and for all. I think it was obvious by reading his post to your previous thread, that he felt there were still stones left unturned, and he was right, there were. This is HAUNTING for a BS. This trickle truthing has got to stop. You are right, it is likely the nail in the coffin. Stop hiding behind his 'reactions' to things for your reasoning for the continued trickle truthing. There are methods for you to be honest but in a safe manner, use them.

2) DO continue to clean up your side of the street. First and foremost, become an honest person. And keep attempting to meet his needs and build his love for you. Will he accept it? Maybe not, you have hurt him deeply. I know I went through large portions of post DDay time when I would not accept anything my WH did for me, I still find myself disregarding his attempts well into recovery. It is a defense mechanism, don't let yourself fall back in love with the enemy. KEEP DOING IT ANYWAY. Show him that you are in this, and that you want to make just compensation to him. If he doesn't respond according to the way you would like or expect, by also meeting your EN's and investing in your M, DO IT ANYWAY. If your M ends in a D, then you will know you did everything you could at the end.

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Originally Posted By: markos
When was your husband's last angry outburst?


Honestly, I am the one "starting" angry outbursts now. My husband attacks me (from my perspective) with a calm logical voice and I just listen without responding until I get agitated and respond with an angry outburst. Then he has an angry outburst. He can honestly say that I am the one escalating the situation. Sometimes he has an angry outburst when I will not parrot a response he is demanding to one of his question.

He will call me at the office and tell me what an aweful person I am in the calmest of voice for a half hour. Eventually I tell him I have to go. Then he will call me back over and over and over again. When I get home he will continue the "conversation" while I am working with the kids or dinner. He likes to do it while I am cutting vegetables and then I have an angry outburst with a knife in my hand.

I have got to stop rising in the situation. I try leaving but that makes him angry. He says I am running away. I have locked myself in a room and he will talk to me through the door.

If Prisca has any tips, I would appreciate them.

Last edited by WhoAreWE; 10/30/12 12:53 PM. Reason: fix typos

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Last edited by markos; 10/30/12 12:41 PM.

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Originally Posted By: WhoAreWE
He will call me at the office and tell me what an aweful person I am in the calmest of voice for a half hour.


No matter how calm he is, this is still abuse. As you noted, abuse has to stop before you can use the rest of Marriage Builders to fix the problems in your marriage.

Here is what Prisca would recommend. It is probably her favorite article on Marriage Builders:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5062_qa.html

If your husband is not willing to eliminate abuse in your marriage, you need to prepare for a separation.


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WAW your BH reminds me a lot of myself. I don't think I was quite as bad but I certainly did pick away at my WH, as often as it popped into my head to do so. Why? Because I felt like he didn't get it, until I thought he 'got it' and understood how much he had hurt me, how much damage he had caused, I could not let it rest. If I let it rest, he would never understand, he would just move forward getting his needs met without ever understanding what pain he caused. I also felt the need to make him pay. I admit I was a resentful B and then some. In the beginning I would rather have seen him live in a miserable marriage, one that HE created, for the rest of our days, then to leave and be happy myself. I finally had a friend say to me once, are you staying just to make him pay, because you know you are paying a bigger price than he is.

In any case, I agree with Markos that you should not stay in a situation that is abusive. I do though see where he is coming from with his picking at you. Not healthy, not a good answer, and will certainly not create a good marriage, but still, btdt.

I do in your writings see many things that make ME think you don't 'get it.' I feel like you still blame him and feel some justification for your A, still make him out to be the bad guy. You are also still trickle truthing. Nobody who truly understands how much pain the lies and deceit cause in a BS would continue to trickle truth.

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Originally Posted By: WhoAreWE
Originally Posted By: markos
When was your husband's last angry outburst?


Honestly, I am the one "starting" angry outbursts now. My husband attacks me (from my perspective) with a calm logical voice and I just listen without responding until I get agitated and respond with an angry outburst. Then he has an angry outburst. He can honestly say that I am the one escalating the situation. Sometimes he has an angry outburst when I will not parrot a response he is demanding to one of his question.

He will call me at the office and tell me what an aweful person I am in the calmest of voice for a half hour. Eventually I tell him I have to go. Then he will call me back over and over and over again. When I get home he will continue the "conversation" while I am working with the kids or dinner. He likes to do it while I am cutting vegetables and then I have an angry outburst with a knife in my hand.

I have got to stop rising in the situation. I try leaving but that makes him angry. He says I am running away. I have locked myself in a room and he will talk to me through the door.

If Prisca has any tips, I would appreciate them.

So are you in an anger management program?

Did your BH complete one?
WhoAreWe's Original Thread


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I appreciate everyone's thoughts. I will not be posting frequently but will come back.

UW,

I have read your messages and will read them again. I will internalize what you have said about me still blaming him. When I am agree it definitely comes out.

BH,

I have not taken an anger management course. My husband's is not complete.


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Originally Posted By: WhoAreWE
I appreciate everyone's thoughts. I will not be posting frequently but


What? Why?


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Originally Posted By: markos
Originally Posted By: WhoAreWE
I appreciate everyone's thoughts. I will not be posting frequently but


What? Why?


Markos.

The main reason I will post less is because I have a full time job and had spend many days posting while I should have been working.

The other reason I will post less is because I do not feel comfortable posting because my husband does not like it. He does not like me putting his life on the internet. He has given me permission (in anger) but I still feel uncertain about posting.

That being said, today I feel like I have dug myself into a hole so deep that I need help getting out.

Last edited by WhoAreWE; 11/05/12 09:17 AM. Reason: typo

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Originally Posted By: unwritten

I would highly recommend the following actions.

1) Provide your BH with every last detail about your A. Do not leave anything out. Come clean, once and for all. I think it was obvious by reading his post to your previous thread, that he felt there were still stones left unturned, and he was right, there were. This is HAUNTING for a BS. This trickle truthing has got to stop. You are right, it is likely the nail in the coffin. Stop hiding behind his 'reactions' to things for your reasoning for the continued trickle truthing. There are methods for you to be honest but in a safe manner, use them.


There is nothing left for me to tell him. We covered the high level details early on. The low level details have been gone through and he has said he wants to know no more. Of course, he can change his mind.

Regarding your general statement about hiding behind his reaction. You will see in my last thread that I was advised to no give any additional information while physical abuse was still his reaction. Please do not advise others to tell the truth no matter what the reaction might be.

Originally Posted By: unwritten
WAW your BH reminds me a lot of myself. I don't think I was quite as bad but I certainly did pick away at my WH, as often as it popped into my head to do so. Why? Because I felt like he didn't get it, until I thought he 'got it' and understood how much he had hurt me, how much damage he had caused, I could not let it rest. If I let it rest, he would never understand, he would just move forward getting his needs met without ever understanding what pain he caused. I also felt the need to make him pay. I admit I was a resentful B and then some. In the beginning I would rather have seen him live in a miserable marriage, one that HE created, for the rest of our days, then to leave and be happy myself. I finally had a friend say to me once, are you staying just to make him pay, because you know you are paying a bigger price than he is.

In any case, I agree with Markos that you should not stay in a situation that is abusive. I do though see where he is coming from with his picking at you. Not healthy, not a good answer, and will certainly not create a good marriage, but still, btdt.

I do in your writings see many things that make ME think you don't 'get it.' I feel like you still blame him and feel some justification for your A, still make him out to be the bad guy. You are also still trickle truthing. Nobody who truly understands how much pain the lies and deceit cause in a BS would continue to trickle truth.


I feel no justification for my affair. Like Dr. Harley said, the issues we had before the affair still exist today and those still have to be worked through. My husband thinks that because what I did is worse than everything he ever did bad combine that they are not issues that need to be dealt with. I had given him a clean slate about the past on DDay when I saw the the pain I caused him. Now he is repeating old habits and that bring my resentments of the past into the present. Regardless of the affair, I have these resentments and just because I did something terribly wrong it does not mean he gets to do whatever he wants.


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My husband and I have to recover from more than just the affair. Over the past few months my angry outbursts have brought out all of the resentments I had before the affair. Those resentment had disappeared for a period of time after the affair and do disappear pretty quickly but are burning strong right now.

Now that he sees all the resentment I have had he thinks that I am a woman that can never be satisfied. That if he had done "better" I would have just asked for me.

All I need and ever needed was for us to break the habit of Love Busters. He just doesn't seem himself doing it and at this moment I am not stopping myself.


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...just because I did something terribly wrong it does not mean he gets to do whatever he wants.

True. It's a positive development that you can accept that statement. It is, however, without impact unless/until your FBH can accept, and operate on, the same principle.

R(adical) H(onesty) would suggest that you put that proposition to him directly.

He may reject the idea, and, based on your projection of how long his opinion on the matter might remain unchanged, you would at least have a basis for subsequent decisions about your future.

He may accept the idea, and then the joint task becomes that of putting limits on the "whatever" part of the statement.

He might also refuse to give you any input on his alignment with the expressed idea. Well, that would give you a lot of input on where he stands about recovery.

MB is not "marriage at any cost", WAW. You know far better than we how far away from a healthy, vibrant union you are willing to settle and endure.

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