Background post here: http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/u...in=166083&Number=2607262#Post2607262

I'm here again with more of the same issues. Wondering eyes. DH and I went to lunch with one of his male coworkers last week and about 10 min. after we sat down a lady walks in and sits within DH view. He couldn't keep his eyes off of her. It was disrespectful, humiliating and hurtful to say the least. I endured this for 45 min. I tried to turn his attention to me without being so obvious about it, but he didn't even realize that I noticed his actions.

I later told him that he made me uncomfortable earlier and he immediately started making excuses about our waitress, who was not the eye candy I was referring to. I walked away at that point and later he noticed I wasn't very talkative so he brought the subject back up. He admitted to knowing exactly what I was referring to when I told him he made me uncomfortable. He tried to divert me so that he wouldn't have to admit to it or talk about the issue. I told him how he made me feel and he promised to try and never do it again (the usual response I get) and that he was sorry. He said that he wasn't having leud thoughts about her, just that she was very pretty and had a nice smile, blah, blah, blah. He admitted to not even noticing that I noticed. It's HOW he looked at her though...he was mesmerized. I haven't gotten glances like that in a very long time.

He told me that I "have an extremely romanticized view of what love is". He's told me also that no man could live up to my standards. I get the usual I'm a man, this is how I'm wired, I'm human and going to make mistakes, I'm not perfect, etc. He's described our relationship as comfortable as in a broke in pair of slippers. I find this repulsive to know that I'm thought of in this way, yet he sees it as a positive thing. He tells me that he loves me, thinks I'm the most beautiful woman in the world, that he only has eyes for me and doesn't want anyone else. I've just gotten to the point that I don't believe him when he says things like this.

I know he's bored with me. I've tried to spice things up only to be rejected or nothing seems to be effective. I've pretty much shut myself down in this area because of my insecurities with this. I'm tired of being compared even if in my own mind, not understood. I'm tired of feeling insecure over this. I'm tired of having these memories of his expressions when he does notice someone else. It's not as often as it used to be, but it hasn't stopped completely either. (Side note: he's been porn free for about 4 years now, unless he replays what is in his memory which he denies.)

We spend the recommended amount of quality time, but I wouldn't say it's UA. It leans more toward his preferences as he tends to get bored with my preferences of how we could spend that time. When he does spend time with me the way I would like it's unfulfilling because I sense that he's doing it out of obligation because he loves me and not because he's truly interested/enjoying spending time the way I like.

I'm really at a point that I don't even want to go into public with him anymore for fear that I will have to endure another episode like last week. If I find myself in that position I don't know what to do to stop it right then, without it being an embarrassment for both of us. Yet, I don't think I can stand to watch it happen either, then later say something. How do I confront or deal with this when in public?

I'm starting to wonder if he's right. If so, how do I change my outlook on this?

Well the first step is to follow the Policy of Joint Agreement and spend time doing something you bothe enthusiastically agree to do together.

You can also download the Emotional needs worksheet from this website and work on that together

The practicalities of dealing with the issues are separate, but you have put them together in this post.

The issue of his "wandering eyes" is about how to encourage him to change his conduct and stop examining other women, flesh and blood and two dimensional, when he is with you and when he is not.

The issue of boredom with UA time is quite separate.

When I have time, I'll look on the private forum to see if Dr H has advised another couple about "wandering eyes".

UA time is a routine issue here and there should be no doubt about how to solve it if you have read here in 101 for more than five minutes. I haven't checked, but I'll bet that you were given standard Harley advice on how to make UA rewarding for both of you, on your first thread. Did you follow that advice?

Purple, you need to take a more serious approach to this program if it is to make any difference. If you and your husband are having problems implementing the program in its entirety [it does not work piecemeal!] then you should sign up for the online program. They assign you a coach and you have daily access to Dr Harley. The coach teaches oyu and your husband all of these concepts and gives you a test every week to see if you got it right.

You husband needs to learn to stop gawking. He does this when you are not around too. Men who do it in front of their wives, do it behind their backs. And men who do this are signalling to the world they are available. He needs to stop it.

here

You brat! You beat me to it! I had that exact quote all poised to post!

PN, your marriage has never recovered from these affairs and it sounds to me like your husband is a serial cheater and a playah who is out hunting for it. He signals that he is available because he IS. I would wager that if he took a polygraph, you would find many other affairs that you are not aware of now.

He certainly has never changed the behavior that led to his affairs, which is why you are so insecure. You know that his heart is not with you and you sense something is wrong. Because something is wrong.

It will take a committment to make radical changes on your husbands part, but I believe you are dealing with a much more serious problem than you want to admit.

Gotta get up pretty early in the morning to beat da Texas!!

Translation:
I'm not going to make any efforts to stop doing something that hurts you.

And, this is why you are hurt and angry.
You've expressed a need (admiration) and a valid complaint (ogling), both of which your husband refuses to address in the present AND in the future.
Basically your H is telling you he is OK with hurting your feelings because he loves you as an "old slipper".

May I be blunt?
Are you making efforts to be as physically attractive as you can be?
Not changing nature, but enhancing your natural beauty?

Rest assured, I am not placing responsibility for your H's rudeness on you. Not at all. I am simply trying to draw relevant information from you. Let's assume for the sake of argument that you are taking good care of yourself and making yourself attractive. Now what?

I'd ask H one simple question.
"H, you know that ogling women bothers me. Are you aware that it causes me so much pain that I am thinking of leaving this marriage?" You must not be angry, but business-like. Deliver this as a fact.

If he IS AWARE that it hurts you THIS MUCH, yet plans to make no effort to stop .... then your marriage is something he considers "an old slipper" and disposable.

Warning. Do not make threats of divorce. Only "leaving this marriage".
Then, tell him he needs to think about this, and when he has a workable SOLUTION that you can be enthusiastic about, you would love to continue the conversation. Then, go shopping. or, have a mani/pedi.

In 2-3 days, ask him if he has come up with any ideas.
Every few days ask.

Let us know what happens. Do not argue under ANY circumstances. That is a love buster. If he tries to argue, you respond: "What are your ideas to solve this dilemma?" Feel free to repeat this response as often as necessary.

I hope this helps.
Take care.

Show me a gawker and I will show you someone who is open for business!

Here is a follow-up post from Dr H to the same poster, after she explained that it was really hard to get her H to stop gawking:

It's about making deliberate and consistent efforts to change his habits. Like any habit, it is just a practice that he has adopted - not an innate disposition that he cannot escape - and he can learn to un-adopt it. It takes practice to unlearn a habit.

Please note that the above advice was given to a couple that had attended the Marriage Builders weekend seminar and was following the online course. To a much greater extent than in your case, this meant that there was some confidence in feeling that the H was committed to rebuilding the marriage after his affair and was trying actively to follow Dr Harley's recovery programme.

I see no sign that yhour H is in the same position as the H in this post, so I would not necessarily apply the statement "it is more likely that he intends to change" to your H.

Sadly, you created a hit-and-run thread the first time you came here, and it did not really take off with lots of advice. From reading it now, I strongly believe that you have not got to the bottom of your H's two "EAs", and that they were PAs and there might have been more than two. You did not post for long enough to be given advice to institute NC and get his agreement to transparency and to getting off Facebook altogether.

I'm not saying I think he looks at women because he is having an affair. This is separate. I think you do not know the truth about his affairs and that your marriage has never even begun to be affair-proofed.

If you want solid, rigorous help, you should ask a moderator to move your first thread to the forum SurvivinganAffair and then post to it yourself. People will rally round with Harley advice for ensuring that your recovery can properly commence.

I give up. I might as well go back to bed.

And BTW, I did get up early! I'm about 6 hours ahead of you - and you still beat me to the draw!

Ahhhhhh. A history has been revealed.


What is wrong? (in no particular order)

1. Lack of boundaries with other women
2. Lack of care/compassion/empathy for your feelings
3. Willing to *knowingly* do things that cause you pain
4. Assumes you will put up with his lack of care indefinitely
5. Thinks love-busting is OK as long as he is doing whatever is in his "nature"

I bet you feel powerless when you read this list. Do you?
Well, you are powerless to force him to change. You can only make changes on your side of the bargain.

Look at item #4. THIS you CAN change. Are you willing?

Ok I will try to give more detail. Melody, yes I think you are right that I just haven't recovered completely. It still becomes an issue on occasions like this. Everything that you've described is exactly how I see his wondering eyes too, but he does not get the depth of the damage that does. I've often thought to myself "Maybe I am too sensitive about this."

Yes there have been more EA over the years besides what I mentioned first time around. Internet affairs, flirting, ex-GF's contacting him by phone out of the blue. (Yes these were out of the blue without his initiating it). The only physical aspect was the OP that I gave info on. He kissed her. I was never in denial of these instances, I just never made a big deal since they were only EA's until I found out about the last instance with the kiss. It's now down to eye wondering. So I can't say that there haven't been any changes...just not what I would have expected by now. My insecurities have just gotten to the point that I can't tolerate ANY of it anymore. He doesn't understand that.

Pepperband, to answer your question (and I took it in the spirit that you meant ), yes I try to make myself attractive to him. I'm particular and self aware, but not to the point of total vanity.

I have told him point blank with examples of how he would relate if he were in my shoes of how hurtful it can be. He is very aware that his actions have done major damage to our marriage and at times shows true remorse, but the changes that he needs to make never become his first priority. I have even told him that I'm seriously considering leaving the marriage if things don't resolve...although I'm sure I showed anger in my words when I talked to him about it.

The problem with the suggestion that you give (although that would be my style) is that when I tell him to think on it, he doesn't...it leaves his mind as soon as the conversation is over and puts no more thought into it until I bring whatever the idea is back up and then he tells me, I haven't really thought anymore about it. I've asked him to help me with a solution and he just tells me, he doesn't know what to do to make things better.

He's gotten to the point of almost giving up too I think. When I brought up the issue of leaving the marriage, he said he loves me and doesn't want that, but he would respect my decision if I came to the conclusion that we needed to go our separate ways.

So how can I get past these issues if I can't let them go and he wants nothing more than just that? Am I one of those who just isn't going to be able to recover completely after all of this until our marriage is over?

(gently) Yes, he does. He just does not care. He assumes you will make the best of a bad situation.

You will never get past it unless and until he makes radical changes in his behavior. He is still a playah which is evidenced by his oogling other women. He is in the HABIT of doing this. He is signaling to other women that his shop is OPEN for business.

He doesn't get the depth of how it hurts you because he doesn't care.

Do you really believe you have the full truth about all his affairs? I don't believe that for a minute. Would he be willing to take a polygraph?

You are insecure because you know he is not safe.

In order for you to "get past" and/or "let them go" (your feelings), you would have to stop caring about how your H treats you.
This is a stupid strategy. (sorry, but it is)
As soon as you stop caring about how H treats you, you become vulnerable to someone else meeting your ENs.

I say, play hardball with him. Or, suffer in silence.

Go see a divorce attorney and find out exactly what a divorce would look like financially. Then ask him every 2 days what his plan is to stop hurting you.


Here is the data (your own quote) supporting looking into divorce!
If I said to Mr Pep "I am thinking about leaving the marriage" he would do whatever it takes to keep me happily married to him.

Are you an old slipper or a beautiful loving wife? If you are really his old worn out slipper, and he persists in treating you as such, I say file to divorce him.

Purple, you have set the bar so unbelievably low that your husband is just living down to your expectations. There is no plan, no standards, no recovery, so a good marriage is impossible. And will be impossible until he makes radical changes.

Here's an example...he takes notice when I dress up or buy a new outfit, but it's more like a "Hey you look very nice". Something with the same kind of attitude that you would have complimenting another person in a casual way. Or you look beautiful, but with a different kind of interest.

The look that he gave this lady, and I don't think he was even aware of his expression, was like "Wow, I am just awestruck with your beauty." "I can't get over how pretty your smile is". Although he doesn't say this, but that's the expression of interest he has on his face. It's not the kind of gawking with definite lustful intents, drooling, etc.

I will be honest. I have done much study from this website. I haven't brought to him this site yet, but I've tried to implement its techniques within our marriage. He agrees with me on some of the suggestions that I've given to him based on this site, but I haven't actually put it to him as "DH there is this program that I want you to look over in detail." I'm thinking that it's time for me to pull this website up for him and ask him to do as much studying on this material as I have done.

We've got all of the tools that we need to make our marriage sucessful, it's just a matter of implementing them and that's where most of it will fall on his shoulders as I feel that I've done all the implementing that I can do by myself up to this point. I guess the million dollar question is, will he put 100% into it or not.

So his quote that no man could live up to my standards is not possible? I don't really have an extremely romanticized view of love?

His reasoning for supporting my decision is he says that he's tired of hurting me and me being so unhappy with him. So you think that he is all for letting go of us and just doesn't want to be the fall guy?

I say RAISE your standards!
Why allow someone to treat you poorly?
He's full of crap, in case you did not know.

Your husband cannot because he doesn't try. He doesn't care.

I think (based on what you've written on this thread alone) that he is willing to keep you as his slipper-wife if you accept his carelessness/crude behavior as "normal".

To hell with that.

If he were tired of hurting you and making you unhappy, he would stop hurting you and stop making you unhappy. But he doesn't care.

He does not care.

Thanks for your support in answering outright those questions about romanticized love and such. I really was wondering if it were just my emotions getting the better of me.

I just want to through out there that I am a divorcee already once over. It lasted 2 years and infidelity was the source of the breakup there also. I know that left scars for me. I don't take divorce lightly, especially now that I'm older so this has been havoc wreaking even considering it as a possibility if nothing else works. I will also attest that I am very guarded when I hear someone mentioning the possibility of divorce as it really is a last resort for me. I know that your not advocating divorce as "honey just get rid of the jerk already" only as an option if things don't radically change. But I do want you all to know how I see divorce.

Do you think it would be wise to also show him this thread once I show him the website and ask him to look over the material in depth?

Mr Pep had an A. During that time, he was an un-treated alcoholic.

Here is how I look at your situation.
Your H had an A. Your H had/has a habit of ogling women. In front of you. Which means he does it even more (worse) when you are not around.

If my H started drinking again, even a little, I would file for divorce. Why? Because, in his case, drinking leads to poor choices, which would eventually make another A possible. Count me out. My H knows this. It is a fact. Therefore, Mr Pep goes to AA and guards his sobriety as if his marriage depends on it. Because, it does.

In your situation, ogling women led to your H's choice to have affair(s). Somehow your H has gotten the idea that ogling is still OK, even thought it makes you unhappy and is a risky behavior dripping with affair opportunity. After ogling comes flirting. Right? Of course right. After flirting comes inappropriate contact. Right? Of course right. Does your H know for a fact that his ogling WILL cause you to leave him? No, he does not.

NO !

Let me repeat myself (indulge me)


Do you think you can educate your H and he will change once properly enlightened?

Edit to add:
Have you ever experienced you H changing *against his will* because you properly educated him?

Can you explain further why you think no please?

So how do I get across to him how serious I am about ogling. Just leave the next time he does it since he already knows how hurtful it is? I'm confused as to what the next step would be to this measure at this point.

I already suggested you do this:


Do not become derailed from your message when he critiques your "romanticism". Repeat your message: "I'll hear your workable plan to meet my needs. Let me know when you've got one."

Meanwhile, get yourself educated about what a divorce would look like.

Some people only change when they hit *rock bottom*. Some still do not change.
I do not know your husband. You do.

Change yourself by deciding what exactly your boundary is. And, that means KNOWING what you will do (not require him to do) once the boundary is crossed.

What shape is your love bank in?

PN, have you watched this video recently?


[video:youtube][/video]

Infidelity: What every couple should know.

Thanks for the link to the video. I haven't researced the videos yet, just the reading material.

To answer your question about my love bank...at this time it's running on fumes. The best way to describe it is letting your gas tank get to the point that you don't know if your going to make it to the gas station and only pumping a few dollars worth to sustain for a few days at a time.

He gets the idea of my romanticized view of love because I believe it's possible for a couple to be "in love" instead of just loving each other after 18 years and being buddies. He is a great father and provider, but we are suffering personally with each other. He seems to think that his lack of desire/libido toward me has to do with other things such as age, his health, stress. He says it has alot to do with the stress that I put on him with these issues. It's still there, but it's at his convenience (as in when the need arises for him). He's proved that to me with the way he glances at women but not me.

I've suggested he practice by averting his gaze when he realizes it and if he's in a situation like at lunch, then he could move to another seat to quelch the temptation. He could even use me as a diversion. I've suggested that he find an accountibility partner as also suggested by our pastor. He hasn't taken any of these measures seriously to date. It's almost as if the moment he got confessed about the A, his desire went downhill and has never recovered also yet he swears that he is still attracted to me.

In the meantime until we come to a solution, should I confront him openly if it happens again in public or show him enough respect to keep it to myself until I can bring it up in private?

Some radio clips about gawking at women.
Radio clip about gawking #1
Radio clip on gawking #2
Radio clip #3

Do you understand that a Plan B separation is NOT a divorce but an emergency effort to pull in line a dangerous spouse?

A Plan B separation makes it clear you are as serious as death about having a romantic, fulfilling marriage. Insists upon it.

He will not have access to you until he commits to certain actions.

And your lovebank will be protected from his lovebusting. I bet he made huge withdrawals when he ogled the women and then gave you the whole 'I'm a lone wolf, honey, just wired to be cruel but I kinda like my old slippers' speech.

If you carry on letting him lovebust you daily you will hate him very soon and then no one will care about the marriage!

Take Pep's excellent advice to warn him about the impending separation and give him a chance to turn it around first.

But I strongly suspect he will need to hit rock bottom without you in Plan B in order to change.

If he is capable of change at all.

Do you have snooping tools installed?

A married man who feels it is OK to enjoy a strangers physical beauty would have no qualms about online flirting with old girlfriends/coworkers etc

How dare you expect romance and sole, undivided attention from your husband! Don't you know you're just an old slipper!

This man has previous form as a liar and you bought this piece of BS?

No I do not have snooping tools installed but I know my way around computers more than he does, so I have ways of finding out what he doesn't want me to know if that was the case. We have already taken measures against those things. I have access to all of his accounts, he only uses the computer when I am in the room, he got rid of facebook about 4 years ago when I found out about the exGF contacting him, he has no access to a computer at work, I have full access to phone records, etc.

Yes he is capable of change. He's changed in many ways over the last 4 years. He has even toned down the glances at other women, but as I said it hasn't completely stopped. Now it's usually an instance instead of being every attractive woman he comes across to someone who is extremely attractive to him. The ones he can't help but notice. That's why it's so much more hurtful and makes my insecurities skyrocket. Not making excuses, just trying to give a clearer picture.

The conversation about the slipper reference: This was not actually a part of the conversation about the woman he looked at until I brought it in as an example. We had that conversation as sort of "How would you describe our relationship". He said comfortable...I told him what comfortable meant to me (that I seen it as a negative, I didn't like the fact that I'm viewed as comfortable) and his explanation of what he meant was the broke in slipper analogy, but reinforced it as a positive for him. I still don't like it even if he sees it as positive and I'm getting the impression that many of you would see that in the same way that I take it, instead of how he meant it.

Sometimes, when I confront him on issues like this, I get the feeling that he is more angry with himself for being a jerk than he is with me for not being more understanding, although he would like me to be able to understand where he's coming from. I do understand though...men are visual, they aren't going to be able to not NOTICE a pretty woman in their presence, heck I said I know when its going to happen before it happens. If I notice a pretty woman that I know he will notice, how can he not?! It's what he does with it. Many times he will look away, divert his attention, or heck he may just be glancing out of the side of his eyes. This was one of those times that even I couldn't divert his attention because he was so drawn to her looks. The fact that it bothers me is not enough apparently.

I used to not be like this...the flirting, glancing, etc. bothered me but it's gotten more extreme since I found out that he took it one step further with the girl he kissed. There was no indication of that one coming at all. I'm more open with him now about how these things make me feel than I was in our earlier years. He can't handle that, I don't think. He is an avoider of conflict, his idea of working things out is to focus on the good parts and the bad parts will just eventually fade or become better. He's just as much tired of this vicious circle as I am at this point. He's tired of me not trusting him even after 4 years. What he doesn't seem to get is the power to change all of this lies withing his hands...not mine. I didn't create this insecurity within me, he did.

You're making lots of excuses for him.

If you say he 'can't help himself' or say he 'just doesn't get it' you treat him like a slow child.

Those are DJs.

Worse, you lie to yourself about his abilities because you want to avoid standing up for a true marriage. Because that would be hard.

Rather than pigeon-holing him as clueless and uncontrolled its MORE respectful to say: 'Honey I know you are in full control of your actions and I fully expect you to be. I also expect you to accept the consequences of poor behaviour like a grown up. I know you realise there's no telling where you will end up living unless you can stop your poor behaviour. I hope we can solve this together'

If he chooses not to, its not because he's not capable or slow witted, but because he chooses not to.


When he says 'that's just how I'm wired' it is with the hope you will opt to just put up with the misery. He hopes to convince you he's too stupid to change a simple thoughtless habit.

Which is actually pretty manipulative and clever.

Now you know better. Now you know it is very dangerous for a married man to be so thoughtless and vain.

Let me ask this...what if the type of time spent is one of the main EN for me. What I mean is, it's not just that we spend UA together, but how we spend it together. He likes to be "doing" something (many times that something seems to be a distraction.) and I like to just spend one on one, quiet, really close time together. That is something major for me. I am happy doing things with him like he likes to do, but it doesn't make the connection for me, yet he is bored with something like just spending the afternoon or even for 3-4 hours shut away from the world with just the two of us. How can you POJA enthusiastically when this type of connection is a very strong EN?

Yes, you are right, I've been knowing this.

PN, the truth is that he has only got better at his gawking around you. It is clear he has not broken this habit at all. He just hides it a little better when you are around.


Not nearly as tired as you are of not being able to trust him. He is untrustworthy and it is horrible to live with a man who can't be trusted. Trust is not an entitlment program for wayward husbands, it must be earned. And he is doing nothing to earn it.

here

At what point would you start again if you were in my position? Melody is right, I haven't recovered, but to start from the beginning would mean to bring up the past. Bringing up the past means opening a can of worms up completely. There has been some healing, but not enough. Anytime I bring something to his attention that bothers me, it always leads to the past and reopens those wounds. Sometimes it is him, throwing it in my face that I should be passed this by now, sometimes it is me using examples of how the past relates to what I'm dealing with in the present. I'm sorry but I'm confused as to where to start since this has been a longterm issue.

I did tell him about this site last night and asked him to read everything here and then talk to me as he goes through each topic. Whether he does that or not remains to be seen.

I give up.
Good luck and God Bless.

The reason the past keeps coming up is because his CURRENT BEHAVIOR keeps you triggered. HE IS CAUSING THIS. His behavior makes it impossible for you to recover. He keeps ripping the scab off and then screaming at you for bleeding!

I would refer you to 2 articles, Can't We Just Forgive and Forget?

and this:

When to Call It Quits - Part 1

In your situation, I would formulate a plan of recovery, present it to your husband and give him a couple of weeks to really get on board. If he doesn't, I would suggest you separate because staying with someone who continues to behave like this will tear you down emotionally and physically. Your resentment will grow and grow. The fact that he still gawks at women and does nothing to give you just compensation makes it impossible for you to ever recover.

I don't understand what you mean by this. Why would you bring up the past?

What are you doing???!!!

Your husband can be neither trusted nor educated and you have been told this by the best of the best.

I would HATE to lose Pep's advice by being so cavalier with it. She is an astounding advisor with years of experience offered to you for FREE.



Nope sorry there hasn't. A 'kind of' recovery is just as much use as 'kind of' faithful.


This is called gaslighting and manipulation. Whenever you have a PRESENT complaint he gleefully casts you in the role of pathetic and jealous by bringing up the past. Gleefully.

He is ogling women TODAY

He is not safe TODAY

He still has hidden As that he continues to lie about TODAY.

So you must insist on a 180 change in attitude TODAY.

And your snooping isn't good enough because I guarantee you he is actively cruising for needs elsewhere SOMEWHERE.

Because the things like gawking trigger the past for me as well as the hurt it causes at the present time.

It would be like saying to DH, "ok here is something that may help us to overcome our problems". I'm telling you that he will take it as I can't let go of what he did to me in the past. He wants me to forget that there ever was a past history. I can't completely, and when I do get to that point that it is almost an afterthought then he does something stupid to trigger it and then wonders why I can't let it go. But he takes offense that I associate the stupid things he does in the present with what happened in the past.

Yes that would make it very hard for you to require faithful behaviour and it would make it easier for him to be unfaithful.

If you went back to being clueless about being cheating he could go back to cheating!

Why doesn't he suggest you stab yourself in both eyes so you can't see his gawking?

It would hurt less and is more technically achievable than wiping the memories.

He doesn't take offense. He chooses to go on the offensive.

Luckily Pep gave you a great plan before throwing up her hands in despair. She might even come back if you follow it.

Deliver this ultimatum in a bright confident voice with an untroubled tone. Your face serene. If you are not a great actress, learn how fast.

If he talks about the past say 'I wish to hear about your FUTURE behaviour'

When he rants about your jealousy....

Look at your watch as though you really must be somewhere and say

"Yes, I'd rather you stopped making me jealous if you don't mind. Up to you my sweet"

Then go see a lawyer. We can't force people to behave. We can only ask and mean business when we do.

"And your snooping isn't good enough because I guarantee you he is actively cruising for needs elsewhere SOMEWHERE."

Yes it's called TV, video games, and reading. I am quite open to the fact that he could be fulfilling his needs with women, but it would be mental, not physical. I can account for his whereabouts for every moment of the day except for at work and if he's getting his needs met physically there then I have more to worry about than just women as his job only has men in his dept. at this time. I can't however account for every thought he has throughout the day.

Ok this is what I'm trying to ask...is the starting point with delivering an ultimatum like this now or the next time that I catch him gawking? I've already confronted him about the issue of his gawking this last time. If I bring up an ultimatum, it will seem as though I'm trying to throw everything that this has created up til today in his face...as in I can't let it go. And that will serve nothing than to prove that he is right. Or at least that's how I would think it would be handled.

But you two aren't in love because of this problem where he mentally compares you with other women. And if he falls in love with another woman, what's to stop him making it physical? Not you. He even admits he isn't in love with you.

Is your bar so low that you'll stand by while he windowshops for women?

Who will it seem like that to?

It doesn't seem that way to me.

You surely aren't talking about taking his manipulation techniques seriously are you?

If he says 'you're throwing the past in my face'

You cooly dodge that DELIBERATE and MANIPULATIVE lie.

"Sorry you feel that way. I had hoped to avoid having to leave you. Oh well, gotta go see a lawyer about my rights"

You're right. He is 'handling' you, but you allow it.

Wouldn't that be just as damaging to your marriage?

Past history or not, normal women are horrendously offended by their husbands gawking at other women, and normal, decent husbands do not do this, because it hurts the person that they promised to love and protect above all others.

You are getting great advice.

This above really jumped out at me.

With this background, you need to understand, this is not just "out of the blue without his initiating it" -- that IS betrayed spouse fog. Your H is actively pursuing getting his needs met outside of M. This doesn't just happen (multiple As) to a WS by accident.

Unless he has been poly'd, I am certain -- CERTAIN! -- you do not have the full truth about the extent of these affairs (what happened and if there are more).

My own personal experience and from what I have seen over and over on the forum, waywards with this type of background (long history of having a secret second life and multiple affairs), the BS doesn't get the full truth until they schedule the poly. I can't emphasize this enough.

POLY, make sure this is part of the recovery plan you present to him...

Yes Markos it is very damaging.

Thanks for pointing this out from a guys perspective Markos.

SusieQ, I realize that yes I'm getting some really good advice here, but what really seems to be lost is direct answers to the questions that I ask. I'm not in a fog, I'm not in denial, I know what my DH is capable of. And yes, when the 2 times that the exGFs contacted him it was by their initiating it, not his. He's capable of being a selfish insensitive jerk who has cheated in one form or another. In any form it's all the same to me emotionally.

Would it be easier if I posted my whole history of every detail I know/have had with him? The details of all of the A's (of any type) is neither here nor there. I have not deluded myself into thinking that he is never again capable of another one, which is why I haven't trusted him in the last 4 years.

So again, please, at what point would I tell him the advice that Pep gave? Now or wait until I catch him looking at other women again?

I'm really not trying to be dense here, I get and agree with most of what's been said, but I am the type of person that overanalyzes everything therefore I need reasons and detailed info to make sure I understand everything beforehand otherwise I just botch it all up.

Wasn't one of his affairs with someone he met through work?

Besides you missed my point -- this type of person (SSL & poor boundaries/multiple affairs, crossing the line with the opposite sex) -- it would very imprudent for you to think you have the full story about what he has been doing behind your back.

Do it now.

And I would get a VARs, GPS and a keylogger too. I realise you are snooping somewhat, phone records etc, but its not really the adequate level of snooping post affair with someone who displays piss-poor boundaries.

Would you really be shocked if you overheard him flirting with someone on the phone when you weren't in earshot? I wouldn't.

I'm curious why you think you need a specific opportunity to ask your spouse to help make you safer?

If we need our spouse to do something for us, we speak up.

Is this because you are always getting a defensive reaction when you ask for his help or to modify his behaviour?

Remember you will phrase it as a RESPECTFUL request. No hint of moodiness, tears or even apprehensiveness. Bright and businesslike.

If he gets defensive, you're very busy and have to dash. Don't hang around to get caught in his anger-trap

Once you've made your request, your part is done and its his job to resolve your complaint.

Thank you Indie!

Tell us how you get on.

Remember the brighter and calmer and brisker you are, the better.

You're not really interested in hanging around for excuses and blame if he's not up for it.

You're very busy

Feigning offense at your hurt feelings is more indication that he doesn't care about your feelings. He does this to throw you off balance. You don't control your triggers...........BUT HE DOES.

And he doesn't care.