Background post here: http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/u...in=166083&Number=2607262#Post2607262

I'm here again with more of the same issues. Wondering eyes. DH and I went to lunch with one of his male coworkers last week and about 10 min. after we sat down a lady walks in and sits within DH view. He couldn't keep his eyes off of her. It was disrespectful, humiliating and hurtful to say the least. I endured this for 45 min. I tried to turn his attention to me without being so obvious about it, but he didn't even realize that I noticed his actions.

I later told him that he made me uncomfortable earlier and he immediately started making excuses about our waitress, who was not the eye candy I was referring to. I walked away at that point and later he noticed I wasn't very talkative so he brought the subject back up. He admitted to knowing exactly what I was referring to when I told him he made me uncomfortable. He tried to divert me so that he wouldn't have to admit to it or talk about the issue. I told him how he made me feel and he promised to try and never do it again (the usual response I get) and that he was sorry. He said that he wasn't having leud thoughts about her, just that she was very pretty and had a nice smile, blah, blah, blah. He admitted to not even noticing that I noticed. It's HOW he looked at her though...he was mesmerized. I haven't gotten glances like that in a very long time.

He told me that I "have an extremely romanticized view of what love is". He's told me also that no man could live up to my standards. I get the usual I'm a man, this is how I'm wired, I'm human and going to make mistakes, I'm not perfect, etc. He's described our relationship as comfortable as in a broke in pair of slippers. I find this repulsive to know that I'm thought of in this way, yet he sees it as a positive thing. He tells me that he loves me, thinks I'm the most beautiful woman in the world, that he only has eyes for me and doesn't want anyone else. I've just gotten to the point that I don't believe him when he says things like this.

I know he's bored with me. I've tried to spice things up only to be rejected or nothing seems to be effective. I've pretty much shut myself down in this area because of my insecurities with this. I'm tired of being compared even if in my own mind, not understood. I'm tired of feeling insecure over this. I'm tired of having these memories of his expressions when he does notice someone else. It's not as often as it used to be, but it hasn't stopped completely either. (Side note: he's been porn free for about 4 years now, unless he replays what is in his memory which he denies.)

We spend the recommended amount of quality time, but I wouldn't say it's UA. It leans more toward his preferences as he tends to get bored with my preferences of how we could spend that time. When he does spend time with me the way I would like it's unfulfilling because I sense that he's doing it out of obligation because he loves me and not because he's truly interested/enjoying spending time the way I like.

I'm really at a point that I don't even want to go into public with him anymore for fear that I will have to endure another episode like last week. If I find myself in that position I don't know what to do to stop it right then, without it being an embarrassment for both of us. Yet, I don't think I can stand to watch it happen either, then later say something. How do I confront or deal with this when in public?

I'm starting to wonder if he's right. If so, how do I change my outlook on this?

Well the first step is to follow the Policy of Joint Agreement and spend time doing something you bothe enthusiastically agree to do together.

You can also download the Emotional needs worksheet from this website and work on that together

The practicalities of dealing with the issues are separate, but you have put them together in this post.

The issue of his "wandering eyes" is about how to encourage him to change his conduct and stop examining other women, flesh and blood and two dimensional, when he is with you and when he is not.

The issue of boredom with UA time is quite separate.

When I have time, I'll look on the private forum to see if Dr H has advised another couple about "wandering eyes".

UA time is a routine issue here and there should be no doubt about how to solve it if you have read here in 101 for more than five minutes. I haven't checked, but I'll bet that you were given standard Harley advice on how to make UA rewarding for both of you, on your first thread. Did you follow that advice?

Purple, you need to take a more serious approach to this program if it is to make any difference. If you and your husband are having problems implementing the program in its entirety [it does not work piecemeal!] then you should sign up for the online program. They assign you a coach and you have daily access to Dr Harley. The coach teaches oyu and your husband all of these concepts and gives you a test every week to see if you got it right.

You husband needs to learn to stop gawking. He does this when you are not around too. Men who do it in front of their wives, do it behind their backs. And men who do this are signalling to the world they are available. He needs to stop it.

here

You brat! You beat me to it! I had that exact quote all poised to post!

PN, your marriage has never recovered from these affairs and it sounds to me like your husband is a serial cheater and a playah who is out hunting for it. He signals that he is available because he IS. I would wager that if he took a polygraph, you would find many other affairs that you are not aware of now.

He certainly has never changed the behavior that led to his affairs, which is why you are so insecure. You know that his heart is not with you and you sense something is wrong. Because something is wrong.

It will take a committment to make radical changes on your husbands part, but I believe you are dealing with a much more serious problem than you want to admit.

Gotta get up pretty early in the morning to beat da Texas!!

Translation:
I'm not going to make any efforts to stop doing something that hurts you.

And, this is why you are hurt and angry.
You've expressed a need (admiration) and a valid complaint (ogling), both of which your husband refuses to address in the present AND in the future.
Basically your H is telling you he is OK with hurting your feelings because he loves you as an "old slipper".

May I be blunt?
Are you making efforts to be as physically attractive as you can be?
Not changing nature, but enhancing your natural beauty?

Rest assured, I am not placing responsibility for your H's rudeness on you. Not at all. I am simply trying to draw relevant information from you. Let's assume for the sake of argument that you are taking good care of yourself and making yourself attractive. Now what?

I'd ask H one simple question.
"H, you know that ogling women bothers me. Are you aware that it causes me so much pain that I am thinking of leaving this marriage?" You must not be angry, but business-like. Deliver this as a fact.

If he IS AWARE that it hurts you THIS MUCH, yet plans to make no effort to stop .... then your marriage is something he considers "an old slipper" and disposable.

Warning. Do not make threats of divorce. Only "leaving this marriage".
Then, tell him he needs to think about this, and when he has a workable SOLUTION that you can be enthusiastic about, you would love to continue the conversation. Then, go shopping. or, have a mani/pedi.

In 2-3 days, ask him if he has come up with any ideas.
Every few days ask.

Let us know what happens. Do not argue under ANY circumstances. That is a love buster. If he tries to argue, you respond: "What are your ideas to solve this dilemma?" Feel free to repeat this response as often as necessary.

I hope this helps.
Take care.

Show me a gawker and I will show you someone who is open for business!

Here is a follow-up post from Dr H to the same poster, after she explained that it was really hard to get her H to stop gawking:

It's about making deliberate and consistent efforts to change his habits. Like any habit, it is just a practice that he has adopted - not an innate disposition that he cannot escape - and he can learn to un-adopt it. It takes practice to unlearn a habit.

Please note that the above advice was given to a couple that had attended the Marriage Builders weekend seminar and was following the online course. To a much greater extent than in your case, this meant that there was some confidence in feeling that the H was committed to rebuilding the marriage after his affair and was trying actively to follow Dr Harley's recovery programme.

I see no sign that yhour H is in the same position as the H in this post, so I would not necessarily apply the statement "it is more likely that he intends to change" to your H.

Sadly, you created a hit-and-run thread the first time you came here, and it did not really take off with lots of advice. From reading it now, I strongly believe that you have not got to the bottom of your H's two "EAs", and that they were PAs and there might have been more than two. You did not post for long enough to be given advice to institute NC and get his agreement to transparency and to getting off Facebook altogether.

I'm not saying I think he looks at women because he is having an affair. This is separate. I think you do not know the truth about his affairs and that your marriage has never even begun to be affair-proofed.

If you want solid, rigorous help, you should ask a moderator to move your first thread to the forum SurvivinganAffair and then post to it yourself. People will rally round with Harley advice for ensuring that your recovery can properly commence.

I give up. I might as well go back to bed.

And BTW, I did get up early! I'm about 6 hours ahead of you - and you still beat me to the draw!

Ahhhhhh. A history has been revealed.


What is wrong? (in no particular order)

1. Lack of boundaries with other women
2. Lack of care/compassion/empathy for your feelings
3. Willing to *knowingly* do things that cause you pain
4. Assumes you will put up with his lack of care indefinitely
5. Thinks love-busting is OK as long as he is doing whatever is in his "nature"

I bet you feel powerless when you read this list. Do you?
Well, you are powerless to force him to change. You can only make changes on your side of the bargain.

Look at item #4. THIS you CAN change. Are you willing?

Ok I will try to give more detail. Melody, yes I think you are right that I just haven't recovered completely. It still becomes an issue on occasions like this. Everything that you've described is exactly how I see his wondering eyes too, but he does not get the depth of the damage that does. I've often thought to myself "Maybe I am too sensitive about this."

Yes there have been more EA over the years besides what I mentioned first time around. Internet affairs, flirting, ex-GF's contacting him by phone out of the blue. (Yes these were out of the blue without his initiating it). The only physical aspect was the OP that I gave info on. He kissed her. I was never in denial of these instances, I just never made a big deal since they were only EA's until I found out about the last instance with the kiss. It's now down to eye wondering. So I can't say that there haven't been any changes...just not what I would have expected by now. My insecurities have just gotten to the point that I can't tolerate ANY of it anymore. He doesn't understand that.

Pepperband, to answer your question (and I took it in the spirit that you meant ), yes I try to make myself attractive to him. I'm particular and self aware, but not to the point of total vanity.

I have told him point blank with examples of how he would relate if he were in my shoes of how hurtful it can be. He is very aware that his actions have done major damage to our marriage and at times shows true remorse, but the changes that he needs to make never become his first priority. I have even told him that I'm seriously considering leaving the marriage if things don't resolve...although I'm sure I showed anger in my words when I talked to him about it.

The problem with the suggestion that you give (although that would be my style) is that when I tell him to think on it, he doesn't...it leaves his mind as soon as the conversation is over and puts no more thought into it until I bring whatever the idea is back up and then he tells me, I haven't really thought anymore about it. I've asked him to help me with a solution and he just tells me, he doesn't know what to do to make things better.

He's gotten to the point of almost giving up too I think. When I brought up the issue of leaving the marriage, he said he loves me and doesn't want that, but he would respect my decision if I came to the conclusion that we needed to go our separate ways.

So how can I get past these issues if I can't let them go and he wants nothing more than just that? Am I one of those who just isn't going to be able to recover completely after all of this until our marriage is over?

(gently) Yes, he does. He just does not care. He assumes you will make the best of a bad situation.

You will never get past it unless and until he makes radical changes in his behavior. He is still a playah which is evidenced by his oogling other women. He is in the HABIT of doing this. He is signaling to other women that his shop is OPEN for business.

He doesn't get the depth of how it hurts you because he doesn't care.

Do you really believe you have the full truth about all his affairs? I don't believe that for a minute. Would he be willing to take a polygraph?

You are insecure because you know he is not safe.

In order for you to "get past" and/or "let them go" (your feelings), you would have to stop caring about how your H treats you.
This is a stupid strategy. (sorry, but it is)
As soon as you stop caring about how H treats you, you become vulnerable to someone else meeting your ENs.

I say, play hardball with him. Or, suffer in silence.

Go see a divorce attorney and find out exactly what a divorce would look like financially. Then ask him every 2 days what his plan is to stop hurting you.


Here is the data (your own quote) supporting looking into divorce!
If I said to Mr Pep "I am thinking about leaving the marriage" he would do whatever it takes to keep me happily married to him.

Are you an old slipper or a beautiful loving wife? If you are really his old worn out slipper, and he persists in treating you as such, I say file to divorce him.

Purple, you have set the bar so unbelievably low that your husband is just living down to your expectations. There is no plan, no standards, no recovery, so a good marriage is impossible. And will be impossible until he makes radical changes.