Welcome to the
Marriage Builders® Discussion Forum

This is a community where people come in search of marriage related support, answers, or encouragement. Also, information about the Marriage Builders principles can be found in the books available for sale in the Marriage Builders® Bookstore.
If you would like to join our guidance forum, please read the Announcement Forum for instructions, rules, & guidelines.
The members of this community are peers and not professionals. Professional coaching is available by clicking on the link titled Coaching Center at the top of this page.
We trust that you will find the Marriage Builders® Discussion Forum to be a helpful resource for you. We look forward to your participation.
Once you have reviewed all the FAQ, tech support and announcement information, if you still have problems that are not addressed, please e-mail the administrators at mbrestored@gmail.com
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 11 of 13 1 2 9 10 11 12 13
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 11,239
J
Member
Offline
Member
J
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 11,239
The issue of forgiveness when discussed in Biblical context is clear:

"Forgive us our sins as we forgive those who sin against us" is part of the Lords Prayer. This doesn't mean forget. It doesn't mean to not have boundaries. But the Bible says that All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. There is none righteous, no not one.

When I was a teenager we had a family friend that did a couple tours of service in Vietnam. He spoke with hatred about Vietnamese people and used horrible words to describe them. This was in the 1990s, years after the war had ended. He refused to forgive them for the pain that the war caused in his life.

My grandmother, in contrast, lost her son in Cambodia. He was executed by the Khymer Rouge shortly after the war ended. The government found his remains a few years ago and she was finally able to bury her oldest son. I have never heard her say anything hateful or show any lack of care for the Cambodian people. She desires world peace and an end to hunger. She gives to help create self sustaining businesses in third world countries.

When my wife had her affair and later left, my mother told me my wife was evil. Very unforgiving.
Yet my grandmother still prays for my ex wife. And I do too.

Vengeance belongs to God. I struggle with forgiving the OM. I hate him. But Christ, our true role model, as they beat him and tortured Him cried out, "Father forgive them for they know not what they do."


Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 147
F
Member
OP Offline
Member
F
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 147
Originally Posted by HDW
The issue of forgiveness when discussed in Biblical context is clear:

"Forgive us our sins as we forgive those who sin against us" is part of the Lords Prayer. This doesn't mean forget. It doesn't mean to not have boundaries. But the Bible says that All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. There is none righteous, no not one.

When I was a teenager we had a family friend that did a couple tours of service in Vietnam. He spoke with hatred about Vietnamese people and used horrible words to describe them. This was in the 1990s, years after the war had ended. He refused to forgive them for the pain that the war caused in his life.

My grandmother, in contrast, lost her son in Cambodia. He was executed by the Khymer Rouge shortly after the war ended. The government found his remains a few years ago and she was finally able to bury her oldest son. I have never heard her say anything hateful or show any lack of care for the Cambodian people. She desires world peace and an end to hunger. She gives to help create self sustaining businesses in third world countries.

When my wife had her affair and later left, my mother told me my wife was evil. Very unforgiving.
Yet my grandmother still prays for my ex wife. And I do too.

Vengeance belongs to God. I struggle with forgiving the OM. I hate him. But Christ, our true role model, as they beat him and tortured Him cried out, "Father forgive them for they know not what they do."

And this is precisely why I struggle with the hatred. How can you forgive, but still hate? Also, doesn't Paul say in the Bible that we don't have to forgive, UNLESS we are asked forgiveness by the offending party, and only IF the offending party is a believer?

On yesterday's MB Radio program, Dr. Harley spoke about this. He said something about forgiveness being given only when one repents. OW has not repented.


BS - 45 (me)
WH - 43
DD - 23
DD - 16

Trickle truths 4/18/12-9/8/12
Final DDay - 9/12/12

Finally heading into recovery thanks to Marriage Builders.
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 147
F
Member
OP Offline
Member
F
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 147
Also, when I spoke to my pastor about this, he told me that I could pray for God to convict OW of her sins, and for God's judgement on her. He said that I didn't have to pray for blessings- that she is evil...


BS - 45 (me)
WH - 43
DD - 23
DD - 16

Trickle truths 4/18/12-9/8/12
Final DDay - 9/12/12

Finally heading into recovery thanks to Marriage Builders.
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 11,239
J
Member
Offline
Member
J
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 11,239
Originally Posted by FathersEyes
Also, when I spoke to my pastor about this, he told me that I could pray for God to convict OW of her sins, and for God's judgement on her. He said that I didn't have to pray for blessings- that she is evil...

That is what I pray for my ex wife.
The truth is we are all sinners. The Epistle to the Hebrews says "The heart of man is desperately wicked. " and "There are none that seek after me , no not one"

It is on her to ask for your forgiveness. But it is not our place, as betrayed spouses to hold hatred towards another person created in the image of God.
My friend that hated the Vietnamese saw them as less than human. He did not have the love of God in his heart. He did not see that they are also created in the image of God.

Christ did say that if we do not forgive others then He will not forgive us.
I think of all the lies, all the adultery, the lust of the flesh, all of my sins (Christ said if we even DESIRE or look at another with lust we have commited adultery by Gods standards) and I ask myself: Who am I to hold hatred against my wife? I better take the board out of my own eye before I judge the splinter in hers.

Now, at the same time I feel anger and hatred towards her for all the pain she has caused.

Ephesians tells us that our battle is not against flesh and blood but against spiritual forces in high places. Satan comes to rob, kill and destroy. The OW in your case, the OM in mine, are pawns In a spiritual battle. When you struggle with this issue, think of the Holy Cross, and Christ suffers immensely for OUR sins, and cries out Father forgive them! For they know not what they do!

Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 514
L
Member
Offline
Member
L
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 514
Wow, that is really beautiful HDW. Thank you so much for taking the time to write it all.


BS Me 47,WH 49
DS's x3 17, 10, 7
Multiple D-Days
No disclosure by WH. No EP's, no transparency, no guilt or remorse either.
Plan C DOES NOT WORK!
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 147
F
Member
OP Offline
Member
F
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 147
Originally Posted by HDW
Originally Posted by FathersEyes
Also, when I spoke to my pastor about this, he told me that I could pray for God to convict OW of her sins, and for God's judgement on her. He said that I didn't have to pray for blessings- that she is evil...

That is what I pray for my ex wife.
The truth is we are all sinners. The Epistle to the Hebrews says "The heart of man is desperately wicked. " and "There are none that seek after me , no not one"

It is on her to ask for your forgiveness. But it is not our place, as betrayed spouses to hold hatred towards another person created in the image of God.
My friend that hated the Vietnamese saw them as less than human. He did not have the love of God in his heart. He did not see that they are also created in the image of God.

Christ did say that if we do not forgive others then He will not forgive us.
I think of all the lies, all the adultery, the lust of the flesh, all of my sins (Christ said if we even DESIRE or look at another with lust we have commited adultery by Gods standards) and I ask myself: Who am I to hold hatred against my wife? I better take the board out of my own eye before I judge the splinter in hers.

Now, at the same time I feel anger and hatred towards her for all the pain she has caused.

Ephesians tells us that our battle is not against flesh and blood but against spiritual forces in high places. Satan comes to rob, kill and destroy. The OW in your case, the OM in mine, are pawns In a spiritual battle. When you struggle with this issue, think of the Holy Cross, and Christ suffers immensely for OUR sins, and cries out Father forgive them! For they know not what they do!

Thank you HDW. I know that you are right. It is just so hard. It's a bit ironic that I don't feel the hatred toward WH, but I do toward the OW. They were both involved... Do you feel the same toward OM as you do your exW?

I know that it is a spiritual battle. I have had this discussion with my pastor, and with my brother and his wife. I know that God loves the sinner (as we are all sinners), but not the sin, but how do I know that OW "knows not what she is doing?" (I think she does know. She saw my WH and wanted him. She wanted to replace me and have my life.) I'm not making a judgement, just wondering.

Righteous anger is allowed in this situation, I believe. Even Christ showed righteous anger in the temple when He overturned the moneychangers tables.

I just think that this is something that is really going to take time for me. I don't like feeling like this about another person. I just wonder if I leave, will it be easier for me to get passed this or not?


BS - 45 (me)
WH - 43
DD - 23
DD - 16

Trickle truths 4/18/12-9/8/12
Final DDay - 9/12/12

Finally heading into recovery thanks to Marriage Builders.
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 11,239
J
Member
Offline
Member
J
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 11,239
Yes. I think it would be much easier to leave and divorce than recover.
I don't know about true recovery. I only had a false one for a short time. Others can speak about true recovery.

I have not seen or spoken to my wife since divorce a few months ago. I think that's easier because I don't have to be her parole officer.
And that's really what some betrayed spouses become. They have to move, change jobs, constantly hold the spouse accountable.

I was sitting in an AlAnon meeting one day listening to a story and I realized. I was like the wife telling her story. She was worried about not being able to control her husbands drinking. I realized that I was like some poor neglected wife, driving from bar to bar looking for her husbands vehicle. Only in my case I was looking or my wife with her affair partner. I learned that my self worth is not based on wether or not my wife loves me;

That's a personal decision you have to make. I can say that I had instant peace after divorce. There are times when I am sad and miss her but I am so happy to be away from that chaos. My wife also had some mental health issues so that's part of the reason I mention chaos. It can be similar to livin with an alcoholic.

Dr Harley says that recovery is hard and if his program isn't followed to the T then it often fails. The good thing is that your husband is on board. But you do have the right to leave due to his infidelity. That is a choice you should carefully and prayerfully consider before making any decision.

As for other woman not knowing what she is doing, who can say? My ex wife did so many bizarre actions I could spend a lifetime trying to find reasons. AlAnon taught me that we focus on our own actions. Obviously If people start undressing and placing lips and bottoms in certain places they know what they are doing.

As for righteous anger, we are absolutely entitled to it. Forgiveness does not mean forgetting or being a doormat. You can have personal boundaries.


Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 147
F
Member
OP Offline
Member
F
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 147
HDW,

Thank you for taking the time to respond with so much thought.

You have given me much to think about. I have quite a bit to pray about, huh?

I don't know your story, except what you have told me, but I respect your advice and help with Marriage Builders steps and concepts. So, thank you for that.

The story about the lady worrying about controlling her husband's drinking is a great analogy. That is how I feel. Not as much as before, but I do think to myself, "will I feel like this forever?"

Sometimes I feel as though I am making sacrifices (and I do resent that), and I know that Dr. Harley says that you should never do that. I just have made sacrifices for so long, that it's a hard habit to break. Perhaps, as we get better at negotiating, this will be rectified.

I guess that over the past couple of years, I've lost my sense of self. I don't know my purpose anymore, but it takes so much of my time meeting Wh's needs and caring for our house, finances, etc... and family that I have no time to find out what my purpose is. (He works, and I do EVERYTHING else.) Does that make sense?

Anyway, thanks again for your wisdom.

~FE


BS - 45 (me)
WH - 43
DD - 23
DD - 16

Trickle truths 4/18/12-9/8/12
Final DDay - 9/12/12

Finally heading into recovery thanks to Marriage Builders.
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 3,146
H
Member
Offline
Member
H
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 3,146
FE,

When we look at forgiveness, we must remember it's not that we do it to "get something".

I get so irritated when the Lords Prayer is quoted, as if we "get forgiveness" only when we give it. How very mechanical.

Forgiveness is not about getting something, it�s about letting someone off the hook. It is a the path to restore relationship with another. Which is why you are abble to forgive WH. You're interested in restoring relationship with him. You will NEVER be interested in restoring anything with OW.

Jesus had no problem "Judging" and "Condeming" either.. Just look at the generation of Isreal that received his wrath. We need only look at Matthew 23. Calling them, Snakes, Whitewashed Tombs, Brood of Vipers, Sons of Hell', it goes on and on...... He condemned them...... That generation!
And, He carried out this condemnation in A.D.70 when all of Isreal was destryed... over 1 million inhabitants of Jerusalem died and and many taken to Rome as slaves.. This left the city empty for several centuries....


IMO, Your minister is correct. We are to turn away and seperate ourselves from sinners until they are repentant. Otherwise we are no more than enablers that surround waywards and tell them, it's not their fault, they were just victims too....

You have no obligation to pray for or even forgive the OW.


on a different note,

Where did your H go? He showed up and then dissappeared?

Has he left his job yet?

Last edited by HerPapaBear; 11/03/12 10:40 AM. Reason: fixed an error




Recovery began 10/07;

Meeting my wife's EN's is my "thank you" that refuses to be silenced.
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985
Likes: 1
M
Member
Offline
Member
M
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985
Likes: 1
Papabear is exactly right. Forgiveness is not some cheap candy we force on people against their will. God doesn't forgive unless we repent, so we shouldn't imagine that we have a higher standard than God. Dr. Harley has several clips on this subject that I posted here


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 11,239
J
Member
Offline
Member
J
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 11,239
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Papabear is exactly right. Forgiveness is not some cheap candy we force on people against their will. God doesn't forgive unless we repent, so we shouldn't imagine that we have a higher standard than God. Dr. Harley has several clips on this subject that I posted here

Then why does Saint Paul say that we are saved by the grace of God, and not of our works? You state that Gods forgiveness is dependent upon OUR act of repentance. That We bring about our salvation through our repentance. If that was the case how could a retarded individual repent? Or how could a child repent?

Nelson Mandela was Imlrisoned and beaten. After release he did not have hatred towards his prison guards.

I'm a betrayed spouse. I don't advocate being a doormat or beating post.
But Gods love is NOT dependent on our actions.

Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 137
W
Member
Offline
Member
W
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 137
Children and mentally retarded people don't need forgiveness. They aren't accountable in the same way adults are.

I think you are confusing two concepts. Love and Forgiveness. Yes God loves us all the time, even in the midst of our sin. But He doesn't forgive us until we are sorry and ask for it. Two different issues.

Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 11,239
J
Member
Offline
Member
J
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 11,239
Long before God made the heavens and the earth He elected those whom He would save to salvation. In fact the Bible describes Christ as the lamb slain before the foundations of the world.

The Epistle to the Hebrews declares that there is none righteous, no not one. It further declares that the heart of man is desperately wicked, and there is none that seek after me; no not one.

Before a person becomes saved they are like Lazarus, spiritually dead. Only when they are saved by God do they repent. Because after being baptized with the Holy Spirit we receive a new resurrected soul. We repent because our old life is contrary to our new will.

Our good works, mean nothin to God. We can show penance and wear sackcloth but that does NOT save us. His forgiveness is soveirgn and entirely unconditional.

Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 1,757
G
Member
Offline
Member
G
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 1,757
Well... (where's Celtic Voyager when we need him?) ... I guess a Calvinist might resolve this by saying that God leads people (or not) to a place of repentance -- people being totally depraved & thus unable to get to that place on their own.

But, FathersEyes, maybe to steer this subthread back into what I think was its orignal lane, of course you're not confronted with (or empowered to address anyhow) the question of whether to grant OW salvation. We're only talking about you forgiving her or not.

In that regard... maybe you don't need to forgive her just yet. Maybe you can, or maybe you're not there yet. Maybe you won't ever be there, or maybe you will. As HPB suggested, there's a time & place for that, but it might not be today, or 2013...

People have sometimes suggested to me that I need to forgive myself. I don't think I even have any right or standing to do so, so it's easy for me to rebuff those suggestions; but although our situations are obviously not equal, one thought that I've had might equally apply:

I don't think forgiving myself ought to be anywhere near the top of my priorities. I have too much to do to make things better for my wife. Too much to do to be better all-around. Perhaps in the same way, forgiving OW -- while it maybe something that you come around to, or not -- probably needn't be anywhere on your "Top 200" list of things you need to do in order to make your life & your marriage better.

So, provided that your husband is attending to his EPs and provided you're being vigilant to ensure that she remains the heck out of your lives, then maybe OW isn't worth, and doesn't deserve, very much of your brainspace, time, focus or energy right now. As long as the affair is dead, then this 'forgiveness' bit is, I think, a can that you can kick down the road for some other time.

I know... easy for me to say, right?


Me: FWH, 50
My BW: Trust_Will_Come, 52, tall, beautiful & heart of gold
DD23, DS19
EA-then-PA Oct'08-Jan'09
Broke it off & confessed to BW (after OW's H found out) Jan.7 2009
Married 25 years & counting.
Grateful for forgiveness. Working to be a better husband.
"I wear the chain I forged in life... I made it link by link, and yard by yard" ~Jacob Marley's ghost, A Christmas Carol
"Do it again & you're out on your [bum]." ~My BW, Jan.7 2009
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 3,146
H
Member
Offline
Member
H
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 3,146
Originally Posted by HDW
Long before God made the heavens and the earth He elected those whom He would save to salvation. In fact the Bible describes Christ as the lamb slain before the foundations of the world.

The Epistle to the Hebrews declares that there is none righteous, no not one. It further declares that the heart of man is desperately wicked, and there is none that seek after me; no not one.

Before a person becomes saved they are like Lazarus, spiritually dead. Only when they are saved by God do they repent. Because after being baptized with the Holy Spirit we receive a new resurrected soul. We repent because our old life is contrary to our new will.

Our good works, mean nothin to God. We can show penance and wear sackcloth but that does NOT save us. His forgiveness is soveirgn and entirely unconditional.

I think you are into a theological discussion that belong on the "other Topics forum"....

My discussion with FE had to do with "Her" forgiving OW.

My point only was about my irritation of using the Lord Prayer as a tool to guilt someone into forgiving another...

I could never worship a God that tells me how well I forgive a person that would murder my child, or rape my wife, or betray me, is the same measure of forgiveness God will use upon me.

Lets stay on topic and do our best to avoid thread jacking FE's thread with theological debates. I believe she will be best served here by allowing her the seasons necessary for true recovery. And I beleive we can all agree that Gods Word proclaims there is a time for everything under the sun, even a time to hate.





Recovery began 10/07;

Meeting my wife's EN's is my "thank you" that refuses to be silenced.
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 3,146
H
Member
Offline
Member
H
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 3,146
Originally Posted by GloveOil
So, provided that your husband is attending to his EPs and provided you're being vigilant to ensure that she remains the heck out of your lives, then maybe OW isn't worth, and doesn't deserve, very much of your brainspace, time, focus or energy right now. As long as the affair is dead, then this 'forgiveness' bit is, I think, a can that you can kick down the road for some other time.

I know... easy for me to say, right?

Well put!





Recovery began 10/07;

Meeting my wife's EN's is my "thank you" that refuses to be silenced.
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985
Likes: 1
M
Member
Offline
Member
M
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985
Likes: 1
Originally Posted by HDW
[

Then why does Saint Paul say that we are saved by the grace of God, and not of our works? You state that Gods forgiveness is dependent upon OUR act of repentance. That We bring about our salvation through our repentance. If that was the case how could a retarded individual repent?

God does not forgive anyone against their will. He does not force anyone into heaven at the point of a gun.. The bible clearly states that some will go to hell. One does not need to impart fake forgiveness to release "hate." A retarded person does not sin because he is not aware of the concept of right and wrong; it is the same principle that is applied to a child who is not held accountable before the age of awareness.

Even so, this was not intended to be a biblical debate but a response to this poster about why she does not owe forgiveness to the OW.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 514
L
Member
Offline
Member
L
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 514
I understand FathersEyes issue with forgiveness. I struggle with it too. I am soooo hurt, angry, resentful. I have good days, and then I have bad days. I forgive my H as a mere human being, a soul in torment. It is very difficult to forgive him because of his choices to repeat those actions over and over. I try to think of it as forgive him because he is sick. I don't have to like it, and I don't have to put up with it. I don't want to let the anger and hatred, and the negativity that comes with it define me or ruin my days.

The point of forgiveness is two-fold. One, we are supposed to forgive those who "tresspass against us." Jesus didn't die on the cross for us for us to hold grudges and retaliate by being angry, becoming heard-hearted and treating others badly. We are supposed to rise above that and treat each other with love and kindness. Remember, love your enemies, turn the other cheek, and all of that. We are supposed to live and love as Christ loved us, let the light of Christ shine from us. That is just do darn difficult when you get your heart ripped out by your spouse over and over again by his/her most hurtful devastating choices.

Two, forgiveness is more for us than for the other person. If we hold it in as anger and hatred, that just eats us alive. It changes us into hard-hearted, less caring people. That anger and hatred will be the guiding force for our lives, and we will not ever achieve true peace and happiness. It wastes energy that we could be putting into ourselves and our children creating a loving, peaceful, happy environment for our whole family. Living in non-forgiveness is a prison for us. It is freeing to forgive. We can become who we were meant to be when we forgive and let it go.

I believe that is a healthy way to look at it. So all that said, when you believe that forgiveness is part of your path to salvation, it is a very important thing to discuss. I, for 1, am glad it was brought up. I really struggle with trying to not let my anger and hatred direct how I am going to respond or, who I am going to be as a person, and I never want it to be the thing that takes me away from my path to salvation.


BS Me 47,WH 49
DS's x3 17, 10, 7
Multiple D-Days
No disclosure by WH. No EP's, no transparency, no guilt or remorse either.
Plan C DOES NOT WORK!
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985
Likes: 1
M
Member
Offline
Member
M
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985
Likes: 1
Littlebit, please listen to Dr Harleys radio clips on forgiveness. We don't need to "forgive" in order to release anger or bitterness. Giving someone a fake, unwanted forgiveness is not biblical and is not appropriate. Living in non forgiveness is not a prison, nor is forgiveness intended to be used as a selfish one sided, feel good measure. Forgiveness requires a forgiver and a forgivee in order to have any meaning.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985
Likes: 1
M
Member
Offline
Member
M
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985
Likes: 1
A person can "release anger" without forgiving the OP. What you are talking about is some feel good fake forgiveness and not real forgiveness. Dr Harley discussed this on his radio show recently:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=2864

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=2865


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


Page 11 of 13 1 2 9 10 11 12 13

Link Copied to Clipboard
Forum Search
Who's Online Now
0 members (), 1,254 guests, and 50 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
Mike69, petercgeelan, Zorya, Reyna98, Nofoguy
71,829 Registered Users
Building Marriages That Last A Lifetime
Copyright © 1995-2019, Marriage Builders®. All Rights Reserved.
Site Navigation
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5