Yes the lovebuster for DJ's refers to ones made to your spouse. Still written here they are still disrespectful judgements. If your husband were to read them here they would hurt the same as if you had spoken them to him. You also make yourself feel negative over these things by making them to yourself.

It would be much more helpful to practice radical honesty and poja a lot of this stuff. It sounds like you are doing a lot of sacrificing and it is just leading to you being resentful. That is not what Dr. Harley says to do. If you don't feel like you can carry the amount of what would make your husband happy then tell him and work out a solution that will make you both happy.

If you want your husband to say something more or notice more tell him, "I would like it if you...". Your husband is not a mind reader and will only know what it is you want or need if you tell him. He won't know something has bothered or upset you unless you tell him that it has.

Ok, I will try not to think it, but how do you not when some of it is true.. So yesterday I try to go to church, but my daughter feels sick, so I turn around and come home. MY sweet oldest son had washed half the dishes without being asked that morning. ( Well, mom I was ready so I might as well!! I gave him a great big hug!) I finished the dishes he left, I swept the floor again since my middle son had gotten animal cracker crumbs all over it. I cleaned the microwave since it had gotten nasty. The pantry was a little disorganized with crumbs on it, so I cleaned that out.

After that, I decided to reward myself and took a bath and started a new book. I then got into bed and about that time, hubby got home ( 2:30 or so) "Hey what kind of tape did you use on the entrance? The ribbons are all falling down?? Oh...you should have used duck tape. Maybe you can do that while I do the gutters this afternoon."

So we talked for awhile as he made lunch and watched the end of the Green Bay game. We quickly made love and then outside to put up the various shingles and choose which one. He blew out the gutters while I fixed the ribbons.

We then tackled the dishwasher. I helped him take it all apart and test the various elements. They were all fine, so it must be the control board. As he is down there he notices crumbs around the finials ( sp? Our kitchen cabinets look like furniture and they have decorative legs and food was around the crevices) " You should probably use the tools on the vacuum cleaner to do this sweetie. This just invites bugs."

See what I mean.. it is never enough. He is right, of course. I should have used different tape. It would be better to use the vacuum cleaner tools.. But I will do that and then there is something else I can do better or more effeciently. But what am I supposed to say, "I know I'm home all day. I don't have a job and now schooling ..... only takes a few hours each day, but I shouldn't have to keep the house clean.." That isn't fair... What would I POJA??? I have no leg to stand on. He's right. Crumbs attract bugs. But he is making thoughtful requests, right. He says it nicely.. So that isn't a love buster. But I worked my tail off and it feels like it isn't enough. I just cried silently most of the night.

mariposa06 said it better than I could. It is a brilliant post.

I picture you running away some day and your husband saying "what the heck?" He has NO IDEA how unhappy you are, does he?

My ex thought I could read her mind also.
Actually that was towards the end, previous to that she says she tried to talk to me and I wouldn't listen. If she had tried harder, we may not be divorced now.
I found MB too late - she was already out the door.

Would it feel better if you asked him to give you 2-3 positive comments for every critique? That doesn't seem unreasonable. Let him know how much more in love with him you would be if he did that.

opt

I asked him to do that when we discussed our EN worksheet several months ago. It just feels like I don't have a right to ask that. I mean admiration doesn't feel like a valid need and how is he supposed to say GREAT JOB when it is something he feels entitled to?? And why do I need that so much? But everything I have ever done in my life is for the approval of others.

And i still don't get what I would POJA: the right to never do housework?? But what is it I WANT to do?? To be honest, I don't have a clue. Without my activities I am worthless.

You are making this way too complicated. You are going to POJA the little stuff, one item at a time. Let's use the dishwasher repair as an example;

Background: you have eaten dinner and are both relaxed at the table.
You: I want to negotiate something with you, is now a good time?
Mr TW: Fine
You: When you pointed out the crumbs under the cabinets, it made me feel unloved.
Mr TW: I had no idea I was doing that, should I have kept my comments to myself?
You: I want there to be more joy for me in the times we spend together.
Mr TW: I love repairing things and it was wonderful for me that you helped, now I need to know how to make it wonderful for you too
etc . . .



Awwww, you sound like a person who needs to become more selfish! You do not feel loved and admired because you are spending all your time sacrificing. Can you change the habit of a lifetime and stop reacting to him as if he is your mother? I'm betting you absolutely can.

Yesterday this site wouldn't come up for me and I found the marriage advocate site which seems to use a lot of the mb principles. But on the site I came across articles about master/slave relationships and wow.. I am the slave in my mentality and here is what he says:



The Slave
To grow up, Slaves seek:
By far the trickiest to deal with are the Slaves. Slaves get their sense of worth either by being attached to �big people� or by taking care of others � or both. They frequently have no sense of self by themselves. In a way, they feed of others. They often encourage competent people to become tyrants. They certainly often encourage needy people to stay needy or become more needy. They experience shock when powerful people don�t give them orders, when needy people turn down their offers to help. A particular shock for Slaves is when you ask them about their point of view. They often tell stories about childhood, describe the behavior of all the people in a situation and never think to mention how they experienced the situation. This is the realm of codependency and it is very, very addictive. They seem to alternate between listening absorbingly to someone and doing things to take care of others.In order to mature, Slaves seek someone who will lovingly help them blossom: develop their sense of self � who are they. This is very hard work for them as they often put this development on hold when they were tiny children, and they have become very skilled at avoiding it. And so the person they seek must be lovingly patient and reliable. Oh, and this person must not act as a Master or a Passive-Master. And while all that is going on, they also need to learn the usual mature relationship skills: adult dialogical skills, patience, and good boundary skills.

Slaves:
You need to cut them off from �authorities who will tell them what to do� and from �needy people who will distract them. Guide them into self-responsibility. �I have to do that.� Al, �Hm. Who says? and why would you want to do what they say.��I failed. Did it wrong.� Al, �Oh. Who says it is wrong? What do you think?��Am I right?� Al, �You�ll have to decide that for yourself.��What should I do?� Al, �Damn, for me that is a hard one. What do you plan to do?��I don�t know.� Al, �Sure, but what is your guess or your best hunch?��I don�t want to upset my wife.� Al, �Yes, but is that what you are doing. Seems to me that what you are doing �to not upset her� is upsetting her.��He wants me to do it.� Al, �Ok. But what do you want to do?��I�m just trying to do the right thing.� Al, �Great! And what have you decided is right for you?��I don�t want to do the wrong thing.� Al, �Not to worrry. Whatever you do will be ok. Either it will work out well, or it�ll teach you a lesson. Can�t loose either way. So what�s your guess about what to do.��I can�t move till I know what is the right thing.� Al, �Yeah. I get stuck too, at times. Still got to go ahead. So what way are you leaning?��I have to take care of them.� Al, �Yes, I hear that. Of course, sometimes taking care of people isn�t the way to take care of them. Let�s look at it.�I worried what they will do.� Al, �Sure, but they will probably do what is best for them. That�s their job. What do you want to do about it?�

He nailed me. I want to have the right answer. The correct answer that doesn't make anyone upset. But I don't have a clue how to fix this...

TW, have you considered using Marriage Builders? I see you posting here alot but you don't use the program. Why? Surely you can see that it would be an improvement.

I want to point out something else that I see. Dr Harley very much advocates complaints in marriage. When your husband gives you a complaint, he is giving you valuable information. It is like getting a notice from the bank that you are overdrawn. You might not like getting the notice, but the alternative is worse. If you view it like that, you won't be so upset about his complaints.

Given that, your husband should not be making complaints in the form of CRITICISM. Read "complaints in marriage" in the newsletter section. You can share that with him. But you want to encourage him to tell him about the things that bother him, that is all part of radical honesty.

A complaint is an opportunity for improvement in a good marriage and an irritation in a bad marriage.

But, focusing on stuff like this is really a waste of your time and ours when you aren't even using the program. This program does not work when you pick and choose little parts in a vacuum. It all works together in a cohesive plan. You will get nowhere taking little bits and pieces.

For example, did you play the radio show for your husband? Have you signed up for the online program?

Making posts about your husbands comments about crumbs is a distraction from using the program, IMO. Do you want to be like other posters who come here for 10 years and their marriage never changes? I see you headed in that direction. Your marriage won't ever get better by coming here and making posts and never using the program. You have to use the program!

Oh my tired! You have really lost yourself. Seriously? Admiration doesn't feel like a real need? Are you kidding? It is a top EN for many (It's my wife's #3). I have to believe it is a HUGE need for you. Why don't you believe you deserve this?

I think you are on to something with this whole slave/master mentality. Are you ready to make a change? Until you change nothing will.

I guess I thought I was because I am trying to meet all of his EN's No, I just carry around the cd, but he isn't going to understand why I called and involved someone else. I throw up just thinking about trying to tell him.. How do I MAKE myself. It all seems logical when I am on here, but when I am with him it seems so silly.

Here is what I would say if I were in your situation:

"Honey, I have learned about a marriage program that, if followed by both spouses, leads to a very fulfilling marriage for both of us. The author states that it's possible for a marriage to be both romantic and passionate as long as these principles are followed. It's overall less expensive than counseling and has a potentially terrific outcome. I'd like for us to give it a try and see what we can build. Are you willing to give this a try with me?"

If he is not enthusiastic, keep it on the front burner by courteously bringing it up as a thoughtful request. Listen to the CD and start implementing on your own, as a way to prime the pump.

I can tell you that I had thought we had a pretty good marriage before my H's affair during deployment, but compared to what we have now...well, there really is no comparison whatsoever. We really did not meet each other's needs very well and had some love busters in the previous few years before deployment. Nothing enough to make us want to divorce, but we were living comfortably parallel lives.

And NOW: we spend at least 15 hours together every week, and we actually WANT to. These are the most enjoyable hours of our week. My H tells me daily how much he loves being with me. It did take some effort to get where we are now. He realized that in order for me to be in love with him and attracted to him, he had to lose some weight. He started working on that right away and it took some time, but the very effort was enough to get us started. He spent time talking with me and being affectionate, showing me his care for me. This led to me always being a willing participant in meeting his two greatest ENs, which are Sexual Fulfillment and Recreational Companionship.

We never dreamed that marriage could be this way. It's been nearly a year and a half since we signed up for the MB Online and our marriage is romantic and passionate in a way that we never dreamed could be possible after almost 33 years of marriage.

In MB Online, you and he would fill out a detailed worksheet regarding the need for Domestic Support (among others, of course.) You would get some assistance, if needed, to help your brainstorming efforts in how to meet your H's need for a deeper kind of cleaning. You both could be very happy in your marriage. That's a win/win.

Don't accept that response. You both need to learn how to POJA.

I did this back in August. I printed out parts of marriage builders for him. Someone in this thread or another one are what I did. Here is the letter I sent with him when he went on his first mission trip:
Dear
I love you. I�m going to miss you SO much while you are gone! Tell I said hello and he needs to come back with his whole family next time! I�ll be interested to see how God uses you in this assignment!
I have been enjoying our time together SO much over the last few weeks. Thank you for making an effort to fill my love bank! It hasn�t gone unnoticed. I feel closer to you than I have in a while!! Thank you SO much for making an effort!
I have run off a couple of excerpts from the Fall in Love and Stay in Love and Love Buster books. They cover the concepts of Undivided Attention, Policy of Joint Agreement (POJA), honesty and making career decisions. I know that I haven�t done a good job of following POJA all the time. If I think that I can�t get you to agree with something, then I just won�t bring it up and do it anyway. That isn�t good. I�m sorry for doing that. The chapter on honesty also struck a chord in me. If I am not honest about what is bothering me, then how can you fix it? I also think that spending undivided time together is important. I thought that you might have some extra time on the trip to read some of this.
I was wondering if you might be willing to consider doing an experiment. Would you be willing to try and spend the UA time and follow the POJA for 3 months? He suggests meeting on Sundays to talk over and plan the week. I would be curious to see if doing this also helps with your stress with your job. Speaking of which, you haven�t said much lately about it. I�m not sure if it is better or if you just don�t want to burden me with it. I do want you to continue to share your feelings about it with me. Together we can tackle anything! I love you and have enjoyed having fun with you the last few weeks! I �ll be counting the days until you return.

Your best friend

The problem is that since that time it has gone completely the other way and now I feel like we are back to where we started from.. Well, other than he finally did ask me out on a date last week. But the SF was totally gone and we are back to once a week or every other week instead of the 4 times I wanted. The admiration is gone. I guess I just need to speak up again. it was just SO hard for me to do the first time. Now I feel like I am nagging.

tired,

In your letter you didn't ask if he'd join you on the journey. You explained your part of the program you were trying to implement and you asked him about a couple of the parts of MB. But you never asked him to join you on the journey.
You two have an unhealthy dynamic and I don�t think you can teach other this program. You�re going to need some assistance. He needs to own his part of it. You can't be the one to "educate" him. Through one of the MB resources he will have his own parts that he'll need to complete.

First and foremost he needs to sign up for doing the program. He needs to feel invested in giving it a go. The best you can do is ask him to join you in participating in the program. But you do need to ask him straight out ... no beating around the bush like in the letter.

If he won�t join you you may consider going it alone. The good people here prodded me for years to talk with the MB counselors alone as I was unsuccessful in my poor attempts to get my wife involved. The counselors will coach you on how to bring in your spouse. I never made the commitment and floundered for years. I was fortunate in my latest attempt seeing my W had had enough of my withdrawal (and hers) that she agreed we needed to do something. It is going very, very well. I wish that for you.

Dr. Harley states that most of the time he is dealing with one reluctant spouse. But many times that reluctant spouse can be persuaded to give the program a try.

TW, I would just rip the scab off the wound and be forthright. Play the radio clip for him. I understand you are scared, but you can't allow fear to control your whole life. It will wreck your marriage.

So put aside your emotions and make a decision to be forthright with your husband. He sounds like a wonderful man who would be willing to make the necessary changes, if he KNEW what the problems were. Beating around the bush has not helped you in the past and it won't help you in the future.

MrAlias said it perfectly. Please listen to his advice. He is the poster child for not taking action and since he has taken action he has made amazing progress!

All this is worthless if it is not done within the context of this program. A little date here and there and some SF here and there is a distraction from following the program.

This program CANNOT BE CHERRY PICKED LIKE THAT. It is all or nothing. Go large or go home! As you can see, fiddling around the edges is a waste of time. As they say in AA, "half measures availed us nothing."

So exactly how does the counseling work? Would I just contact Steve and just go ahead and ask for 5 sessions. I hear they ask for sessions separately, so then that would leave 3 for us together? Is that correct? Of can I just sign up for 5 without telling my husband to just talk things over with Steve? ( I'm thinking it should be Steve and not Jennifer as he would be the one that could convince my husband and would come from a guy's perspective.)

Or if I give him the cd with the radio show on it, should I just ask him if he would please read HNHN and Love busters with me and we can talk about each chapter. I have every single book except buyers, renters and Surviving an Affair. I also have over 300 episodes of MB on my computer. I have about 10 of them tagged as ones that would be good for him to listen to.

I'm just not sure how the counseling works, not how to explain to hubby that I want to talk to this guy that specializes in affairs ( he says that 90 percent of his work is with those people)