IDK when it comes to PA I do want to be in great shape, and I do want to look cute when I can. I wouldn't do my hair and wear makeup every day if I didn't. I wouldn't make sure I had lipstick on when I am out playing in the mud by myself if I didn't. It is one thing to want to feel good about yourself, but you know I have a high need for Admiration, and I don't want that from anyone other than H (even though I get it, and it does feel good I won't lie). He is the one who doesn't give it to me, who doesn't help guide me and doesn't give me positive feedback when I try. It is hard to stay positive, and keep trying, and keep taking that next step to try and understand someone's needs and try and meet them, without the positive feedback. When I feel like regardless he STILL does not admire or desire me. That's all.

I can practically hear your lovebank plummeting.

I think it's time for some RH from your side.

How long are you willing to put constant effort in to a recovery that has no real direction? How long are you willing to feel like you are failing? How long are you willing to struggle on without help, when help is available? How long are you willing to 'guess' with vague directions?

You can't force your H to try the online program, but you could be RH about what will happen to your feelings if nothing changes.

I am RH about what will/is happening to my LB. in fact just a couple weeks ago I brought my feelings of increased futility to his attention.

As has been the dynamic in our relationship for a long time, certainly since recovery began, despite my complaints and RH about my feelings, H will passively avoid confronting our issues or doing hard work UNTIL I reach some kind of low bank breaking point. Then he scrambles. The fact is I am actually pretty easy to please. When he scrambles and all of a sudden he can't get enough of me (because he thinks he is going to lose me), then my admiration and SF needs are met and I am a junkie w a needle in my arm. All seems well until the next crash.

Ultimately it takes very little to reignite my LB and energy to recover, but whatever effort is given is not sustained. Once the crisis is over he is back to passively living as we always have.

How long will I do this?

Idk honestly. He has made progress. He is a much different man than I was married to for a decade. He does fill some needs, just not my top ones. He has incorporated very strong boundaries around people of the OS, and has eagerly done so. He is also enthusiastically transparent. So I guess if I felt like there was NO change and no progress this wouldn't be an issue.

But my top EN's are not met. And he is so damn passive about it all, I make suggestions and he is in agreement with them, but the action doesn't follow. Perhaps I am equally to blame for that, it is hard to keep my energy for all this work up. Either way, I am not happy. Happier than say, 5 yrs ago when I was a sad unloved insecure BS in the dark. Happier than 3 yrs ago when I started to rebel. Happier than a year ago, before any work took place. But still not happy. Not in the marriage of my dreams, just not in crisis anymore.

So idk when what I get will finally not be enough. When the crash will last.

I often think about how mr UW might write the same exact thing. UW puts effort in for a few days then says F it and stops trying. UW does not meet my needs for DS, or PA, or admiration or affection. UW makes suggestions that I think are great ideas and then does nothing to follow through. This could go two ways, I'm sure.

i think you need a call into the coaching center, steve has helped in so many way, over the past almost 2 years i have felt like i have had to drag my H thru the Sh88 and its very frustrating, i get that. try it why not. i really get what you are saying and steve has refocused us even thought its far between calls, it works. its a vicious circle. it will crash when you stop trying.

as for the dress, i hate shopping as does H. he never had a problem with what i wear and actually used to get angry because i dress so nice for work and he wouldnt see me. well weekend wear lacked alot, heels and suits 10 hrs a day enough i cannot get the monkey suit of fast enough and into yoga pants and a t!!! so during my plan a i said screw it, i am spending the money and buying things i would never- not pricy items. now i am a grocery store fancy girl most of the time, you watch the show you know the philsophy, dress better and you feel better and people notice, blah blah....

so after my clothes changed, H asked if we could go shopping online, out came the bottle of wine and it was agonizing, but he picked 3 things for me and yes i wear them-- the 5 other things i wear more. or when i would get catalogs i would circle things and say, I would love it if .... H got to do it on his own, i didnt have to shop! the ups man was my friend, and H would get lb deposits for presents!

try athleta, garnet hill, title nine and boden, sporty fun, not to young, and get a dress - weekend look dress legging and uggs. hot but comfy. and make sure your match underneath, mom said when you match it will all be ok, and side note- if you have to go to the ER....

but i do get what you are saying, maybe you could encourage him more with his good ideas, i know you want him to just do it, but sometimes it takes a little nudging, do you tell him that its a great idea? and dont get frustrated that he hasnt done it yet, if you havent encouraged him. its hard to do, i know.... just try it.

I am a huge lululemon nut ... I buy their clothes so I can go to Crossfit in the early morning and then I throw boots and a sweater over and head to work. I think they have a great selection of workout gear that can be worn sexy, to work, to play, and even out at night. They are expensive, but they do last forever. I bought my first outfit in 2008 and continue to still wear them today ... just a thought!!!

Ha, yes that's a bit of an understatement. We're talking several K for a suit.

As Indie says, though, there IS a middle ground where you can find clothes suitable for your lifestyle, that also give H visual pleasure. Think nice colours, better fabric, better cut.

This is why you need third party help. Smile and say 'Honey, I think we need the coaching center. If you disagree. I need to know (in the name of radical honesty) exactly why you dislike the idea'.

Did the two of you ever do the RH questionaire? It's pretty strong! I can't imagine anyone doing that fully and honestly and then ever being shy about honesty ever again.

Chicadee thanks for the ideas. I looked up those companies, I do get their catalogs but never see anything I like. Plus, they're expensive! I know I just have a hangup about this price thing, $60 for a tank top holy cow I buy them for less than $10 and wear them to do everything in my life, can't imagine paying $60 for a tank top. People am I just cheap when it comes to clothes???

IDK part of my money hangup is that I work for a non profit and have what I call the "shindler complex." For those of you who have seen the movie Shindler's List you will understand the concept. For every large item I purchase I think "I could have helped X amount with this money..." I see so many people in need and what I could spend on one sweater is a weeks worth of groceries for some family or whatever. I only do this on things I don't really care about, like clothes. Don't have a hard time spending money on gear for my hobbies lol.

Gulp. Ya I won't be buying Chanel anytime soon...

I agree with all of you about needing the online program/coach or the coaching centers help. Maybe after the holidays I work harder on this.

As far as clothes, thank you ALL for your ideas. A lot of it reminds me of how I do dress though, which doesn't seem to please H's need for PA, so I think I am on the wrong track with this 'sporty' look. In fact, I think I actually dress a little more trendy than those companies (silver jeans, etc.). I think its the whole look of a very put together person, mani, pedi, jewelry, trendy clothes...which takes DAILY work and that is incredibly difficult for me.

Either way attire is just one small piece of the problem YKWIM?

Oh I like the 'match underneath' idea!

After my tummy tuck I will load up on some new VS, haven't done that in YEARS. H doesn't have any interest in lingerie so mine collects dust, and even the daily wear has gotten sloppy (I like the boy shorts, comfy). But I know before I was married to him I would always dress matching underneath and wear my BEST items for things like interviews, even though nobody saw them it made me feel hot and in charge!

So I guess thats more for me than him, but thats ok

I don't like to resurrect my thread for my whining. But when something positive happens, I think its ok

First, I was talking to a friend about recovery. I started to say 'when I first found out about (insert name of PA OW)'...only I couldn't remember her name. Only lasted a few short seconds, but it sure was nice to forget her name. Never thought that would happen.

Then again, I am VERY forgetful. Seriously, I wonder sometimes if I have early onset dementia I am so forgetful.

Then H had an old coworker (female) email him. It was a completely business type email, used to work together, looking at a position in his current company, was told by XYZ old coworker to contact him to get info on the company and position, please call her... He emailed it to me, then told me about it and asked me how I would want him to respond. I told him I would want him to NOT respond. For a variety of boundary related reasons, not the least of which is because their former employer was the same employer OW1 was at and these girls might be friends. He said he feels bad not responding. I said, 'well I guess you have a decision to make then don't you.' He deleted the email without responding. I know this because I logged into his email and checked (and then he later told me)

He has been 110% with boundaries and I have had 0% reason to doubt him since DDay. He totally gets the boundary thing and supports it 110%. But, it STILL crosses my mind that he COULD be showing me THAT email while also emailing her something else on the side, you know, to throw me off his tracks. After seeing the dark side (and walking it myself for awhile) how do you ever get your mind to not see it around every corner again? It seems next to impossible for him to prove himself trustworthy again. My brain just won't allow itself to be vulnerable. If anyone has any suggestions on that I would appreciate it.

So then, he works with a coworker who is also from this former employer. The coworker has loose boundaries, which I hear about. I am friends with his wife and she is awesome, I do not wish to see her go through this. So my H has taken it upon himself when the topic comes up, to spew MB material and philosophy. I think its great. Anyway the friend says 'XYZ emailed me to ask about this position' and H says she emailed him too. He asks what H said and H said he deleted her email. Coworker says his wife would probably want him too, but he isn't going to damage someones career over his wife's insecurity. H says, you mean you are going to make your WIFE and the mother of your children feel insecure to help some meaningless woman who means absolutely nothing to you with her career??? He said something like, point taken. And that was the end. I always am proud to hear these stories, not only does it spread good boundaries but it also IMO sets H up as someone who does NOT support cheating, and that protects us too.

I find myself not focusing on the A anymore. I mean it is the white elephant, for sure, but I am trying to focus more on marriage building. After DDay boundaries and EP's were paramount. I neglected many things about working the program from a marriage BUILDING perspective. It is, quite frankly, biting me in the azz. I am not happy, nor is he. Our marriage is better than ever before BECAUSE of the boundaries, but not because of a lack of LB's, filling of EN's, etc. We just haven't sunk our teeth in it yet. We are LAZY. So, this year we are not going to focus on A's and are just going to go back to the basics. I think we will do the online program, possibly counsel with the coaching center on our 'hot topics', make UA paramount, do the program, listen to the radio show, etc etc. I think I am going to ask him to start posting here too. It has been so beneficial for me, it has literally turned my way of thinking around.

OK peace out. Just wanted to share my stories.

hi uw. i've been thinking about you a lot lately, so i was glad to see your thread pop up.

i'm so pleased to see a happy post! i'm so glad you're having some "good" time.

but...i am scared witless to see that you are going to have a tummy tuck? have you seen this surgery? it is such an intense, invasive surgery for someone like you (very slim) to consider. the recovery time is lengthy (4 or so weeks). i know you are doing it for WH...(just out of words).

also, i suffer from plantar faciitis. it sucks. i wore ugly shoes for a year. but arch supports and those slip-in heel supports help tremendously. i have several pair that i rotate around my good (read: lovely) shoes. it means summer is tough - sandals and flipflops only encourage the faciitis to flare up. you can put them in your boots. i even have them in my riding boots. stretches (toes up against wall, lean in so it pulls on your calves & soles) help somewhat. i also ice my feet (sounds weird, i know, but in the heat, it helps). unfortunately, it is a condition that comes and goes. however, when it's really bad, you can consider cortisone injections. they hurt like a mother (i just laid there and repeated to myself "i have had a baby. this is not that bad" over and over), but they do help.

UW, your post made me sooo happy for you!! I'm glad that your husband is using what he has learned here to help others. You must be so proud of that.

And I'm glad to see that you are getting back to basics and I think the online program will help a lot with keeping you guys from getting lazy LOL.

Good for you for re-focusing on the present and a happy future!

I know I am totally DREADING getting the surgery. For one, I have termendous guilt for spending that kind of money on something so vain. So not my personality to do that. It makes me worry something will go wrong as a way to punish me for vanity. And I do worry something will go wrong. I wouldn't worry about that with a necessary procedure, but when it is so UNnecessary it just seems like murphy's law. And, I am NOT looking forward to the pain. I have a high pain tolerance, but I have heard it is a painful recovery which I am not looking forward to. Also knowing myself, I will not ask for help or rely on friends for something I 'elected' to do to my own body.

But that all being said, I do look forward to having my 6 pack back! So that is what I try to focus on.

H, I don't even really know how he feels about it. He does not feel his PA need is being met. I think I'm pretty hot as is, there is always slight room for improvement but in my case, not anything major. He has specifically said when asked if he could highlight an area that bothers him it would be my mama tummy, of which even P90X abripperx cannot turn back into pre 3 - 41 week pregnancies condition. I am enthusiastic about the RESULT so I just want to get er done and stop talking about it, ya know?

Oh this plantar faciitis issue... So many people have had it and say "oh it hurts like he77 but it just goes away on its own..." Ya it hurts, some days I can barely walk honestly and I have had it since June and I keep waiting for it to go away on its own... I just take ibuprofen when it is really bad as that usually results in my twisting my ankle (trying to not walk on it I guess) and even more pain. Otherwise I just ignore it. lalala i don't feel you painful heel... When I wear my tennis it feels pretty good, but the minute I take them off or put something cute on it doubles or triples the pain. I do break down and wear cute boots or whatever for a date night (and I have put the arch supports in all of them, doesn't help one bit), and am usually limping by the time I get home. How do I meet the PA need in Nike's all day for goodness sake. Its a conundrum. The other thing is I haven't worked out much since probably August because of it. I am planning to just bite the bullet and get back to my P90X or at least do some running but I know that even on the good days when I might be able to pull it off, the next day I will pay dearly! I really miss working out though.

Can't see myself going to the shots. Seems like overkill for a simple painful heel, but maybe if I get desperate enough.

FYI I'm not 'very slim' just to clear that up! Guess thats what my goal is though. Just mid weight range size 8 'normal' and I would probably be perfectly happy with my body if I wasn't married to be quite honest.

As far as the EN meeting, we just recently talked about this whole surgery thing and EN meeting and H said "you really have a lot of misunderstanding about my EN's and seem to want to fill in the blank yourself." Um, ok, why don't you fill in the blank FOR me and help me understand more? Nope, he just dropped it at that statement. In my defense, I want to meet his EN's, and I feel he has created the misunderstandings and I have filled in the blank because of my desire to figure it out. Just sayin.

We do have a lot of work to do on the basics, for sure.

And thanks RQ, I am proud of him when I hear these stories. For sure. This particular coworker of his with the loose boundaries, H has attempted to 'educate' him on proper boundaries several times in situations just like this. I think sometime when we are together with him and his wife we will tell them our story, I think it would help them to know what we have been through and why boundaries are so important in an M.

But I always feel like until we are TOTALLY recovered and have it ALL together in our marriage, we cannot give advice to others without being hypocrites somehow.

And I don't know that I am focusing on the present and happy future either just to clear that up Just realizing that one of our greatest hurdles through all this is that we have NEVER had a good marriage. We don't have any 'good times' to fall back on and remember and try to get back to and make better. We really have to learn how to be a happy married couple from scratch, with or without the infidelity to get over. I just want to be happy for once.

One of my friends the other day said H and I were just working against 'incompatibility.' I was a little put off by this, because we are actually very compatible. She said 'what would you do if your kids were grown' I think expecting me to say I would leave him. My mind immediately thought of all the fun things we could do together! Because we have so much in common and have so many common hobbies, we truly enjoy each other's company from an RC standpoint and therefore we would be together all the time if we didn't have kids to juggle.

Its not the compatibility, which I know a lot of people have to deal with, its just a general dynamic built on an enormous amount of IB and LBing. Habits that are VERY hard to break without diligence, and we are not diligent we are just lazy. And I just lose my focus and energy A LOT.

We totally need accountability.

I think that if you are "dreading" the surgery, then you should table it for now. You shouldn't do it if your not enthusiastic about it and it doesn't seem like he wants you to get it done. Perhaps brainstorm other ideas?

And get the EN's questionnaires out and get them done. Have him write down what is EN's are and how he likes them met. If he's giving a half-azzed answer, then try to get him to give you more. It's not fair of him to make you try to figure it out.

We have tabled it many times and it keeps coming up. That's why I just want to do it and be done with it!

We have done the EN questionairres a couple of times. IMO he isn't always O&H about his needs. I know that is a DJ but he will tell me a need, then I will get specifics about what that means, then I will act on it, then he will say I am 'confused' and that was not REALLY what he needed (though he will agree that is what he specifically said he needed, he will say even though he said it he didn't mean it that way...)... Yes it's very confusing which is why I end up filling in the blanks on my own a lot.

I foresee you getting it done with it, going through a painful recovery and it will make no difference to him. Going by your past history so far and what you said above.

"I will act on it, then he will say I am 'confused' and that was not what he really needed"