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#2700113 01/19/13 10:49 AM
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Ive been reading this board for months. Most of the time it seemed very helpful, sometimes not so much. I was going to post last week but chickened out. It seems my FWW, Trueform, forced my hand by starting a thread, so I guess Ill give it a shot. My head is all over the place with this stuff so I guess Ill just pick a spot and let it roll.

Sometime in the spring of 2011 I was sitting at the computer in our office at home. My brother was sitting in our family room and talking to my wife who was busy in the kitchen. I really dont know what he was talking about, nor did I really care. Then I heard him say, do you know a guy named POSOM? At this point I got up and walked into the room.

He was on my couch in the family room; she was about 20 feet away at the island in the kitchen, I stood between them. As I was walking into the room my brother was talking about an email he accidently received from POSOM which was intended for my wife. As I stood there, watching my wifes face he made the comment, man, this guy really likes you. You could have a stalker on your hands. My wife coolly said to him, just delete it .

I was sure my presence prompted the unequivocal response, but I appreciated it nonetheless. I didnt want to react in front of my brother and I didnt want my wife to believe I was still insecure and jealous of this relationship, which early in our marriage was much longer and more intimate than I was originally led to believe. I did start snooping a bit right after this incident but it was half-hearted and I felt guilty doing it.

As it turns out, this email was the initial contact sent to my wife by this POSOM, nearly two years earlier. She had intended to delete it but instead accidentally forwarded it to my brother. I didnt quite know at the time but this was the beginning of the end of what I had known as my life.

Right now I would give anything to go back four years and work on the deficiencies in our marriage which don't seem nearly as insurmountable as they do now. My wife knew very well what and where my greatest fear and insecurities were and went to that exact place with little hesitation, knowing that even one contact with this POSOM would kill me.

My main obstacle seems to be the ease with which she invited this POSOM into her heart and the ease which she was able to dismiss me. Then add to that how hard it is for her to allow me to believe I am her man and not just some sort of consolation prize, some sort of stooge understudy for the love of her life. That I cant live with.

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Hi Late, welcome to Marriage Builders. I am sorry for the reasons that bring you here. You can have a much better marriage than what you had before if you will follow this program. There is a very narrow path out of this and most don't make it because they don't follow these steps.

I will just tell you that I have a fantastic marriage and I don't feel like a consolation prize. It is because my husband and I are in love with each other. We can help you have the same thing.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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Originally Posted By: LatefortheSky
I didnt want to react in front of my brother and I didnt want my wife to believe I was still insecure and jealous of this relationship, which early in our marriage was much longer and more intimate than I was originally led to believe. I did start snooping a bit right after this incident but it was half-hearted and I felt guilty doing it.


This is a very telling remark and I believe indicates a problem in your marriage, which has - hopefully - been addressed. Jealousy is a normal reaction to a threat in marriage. You rightly perceived the risk even though she did not. The problem is that she has opposite sex friendships. That is why your alarm bells went off.

Almost every affair is due to opposite sex friendships. Most people don't go looking for affairs. They unwittingly ease into them by allowing "friends" of the opposite sex to meet their needs. As soon as one need is met outside of marriage, the others are soon to follow.

Do you still believe that jealousy is an inappropriate emotion? Are you able to see it was a very valid warning system telling you something is wrong? And have you reconsidered the value of snooping? If you had done some snooping sooner, you could have killed the affair in its early stages. Snooping protects a marriage, it doesn't harm it.

Originally Posted By: Dr Bill Harley
"I will leave you with another important point. I've already expressed my conviction that after an affair is over, there should be no contact between a spouse and his or her lover. But there is a related issue that is often ignored. When you marry, neither you nor your spouse should have any contact with any of your previous lovers. Anyone that you've ever loved is a temptation for you, and has the potential of re-igniting your feelings of love."

here


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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My concern and jealousy were because the relationship was much longer, more intimate and she had much more attachment than had been told to me originally. though he lived 3000 miles away they had contact with each other while he was engaged and after he married, which was 5 years before we started dating.

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The biggest concern was that she maintained contact with a former lover; that is just an invitation to an affair. Does she have other opposite sex friendships?

Have you and your wife taken steps to change that environment?


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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I know you feel you have the full truth. Have you read surviving the affair? If not order it now. Also what EPs you have in place to protect your marriage from this happening again. You should post them for review. I would also suggest she deletes facebook or any social media that can be used to contact POSOM. How long has NC been established? Has you and her written a NCL? Does POSOM friends and family know? Expose this, friend. What snooping measures are in place to ensure NC. Seems like this guy hovers in and out of your WW life at his fancy. Have you spoken with POSOM since she has come clean. I encourage you to contact him, I am pretty sure you will hear a different story about the events. Now is the time to be proactive and crush this affair gather a the evidence and get texts messages and emails printed out. Your WW should help its JC. Send copies of that info and a exposure letter about the timeline of events to your family, WW family, church, friends and all these entities on POSOM side as well. More importantly tell POSOM wife and kids as well. If you haven't done this already.

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Originally Posted By: LatefortheSky


My main obstacle seems to be the ease with which she invited this POSOM into her heart and the ease which she was able to dismiss me. Then add to that how hard it is for her to allow me to believe I am her man and not just some sort of consolation prize, some sort of stooge understudy for the love of her life. That I cant live with.


I promise you this feeling will go away as your marriage recovers. If it doesn't recover the correct way, this will get worse. In marriages that don't recover, the resentment grows with each passing year. If you can create a romantic, passionate marriage in the present, it will take your mind completely off the past. I promise you this. It is like filling that nasty wound with effective medicine; eventually you heal.

The way to recover your marriage is:

1. create an affair proof marriage: eliminate opposite sex friendships, become completely transparent, give each other all your passwords, never spend the night apart

2. create a romantic marriage by devoting 20+ hours per week meeting the 4 intimate emotional needs of conversation, affection, recreational companionship and sexual fulfillment - use this program in its entirety and learn the POJA and PORH

3. eliminate all lovebusters, that means NEVER bringing up the affair again

4. focus on being as pleasant and attractive as possible around your spouse [both of you, of course]


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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Originally Posted By: MelodyLane
The biggest concern was that she maintained contact with a former lover; that is just an invitation to an affair. Does she have other opposite sex friendships?

Have you and your wife taken steps to change that environment?


To my knowledge she has no OS relationships that aren't family friends we share in common. I have never been concerned or jealous of her behavior until and during her EA. I knew in my gut......I didn't know....but I knew. Her behavior screamed of it. I know I asked her at least twice during that time if she had a boyfriend, which was laughed off as a crazy idea.

I'm not as naive or presumptuous as I was and am much more sensitive to these things, but the most serious threat is her heart and the special and exclusive place she has devoted to this POSOM. I want to KNOW he is OUT. I want to believe I am the only member of her club and have full privileges, which in my mind were previously granted only to afore mentioned POSOM.

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Originally Posted By: LatefortheSky
My concern and jealousy were because the relationship was much longer, more intimate and she had much more attachment than had been told to me originally. though he lived 3000 miles away they had contact with each other while he was engaged and after he married, which was 5 years before we started dating.
LFTS, my married affair-partner had also been engaged in another affair, to her ex-BF from high school. He lived in Florida, she in Virginia, and so let me just spare the details I was told & simply tell you that distances of 1,000 miles or more are no assurance that an affair wasn't physical.

I'm very sorry you've had cause to find your way here, on account of people like I once turned into.

The way back -- to a better marriage than what you've ever had before, for that will need to be your goal -- has to start with complete ("radical") honesty; because without that, you'll just never feel the necessary level of emotional safety with her to be able to fully reinvest in her & see her as the person she (says she) wants to become for you.

Given what I've seen of her story from what she's posted, I'd say you've gotta start with a polygraph. Her story doesn't just sound fully believeable to me; and I know from affairs, unfortunately from the inside. If she's been on the up-&-up in what she's told you about it, then she'll very likely pass, which will give you more confidence with all the other steps you'll both need to take going forward. But given the account she's spinning, I'd say that in your case, the poly has to be Step#1.


Me: FWH, 50
My BW: Trust_Will_Come, 52, tall, beautiful & heart of gold
DD23, DS19
EA-then-PA Oct'08-Jan'09
Broke it off & confessed to BW (after OW's H found out) Jan.7 2009
Married 25 years & counting.
Grateful for forgiveness. Working to be a better husband.
"I wear the chain I forged in life... I made it link by link, and yard by yard" ~Jacob Marley's ghost, A Christmas Carol
"Do it again & you're out on your [bum]." ~My BW, Jan.7 2009
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I concur.

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Originally Posted By: LatefortheSky
Originally Posted By: MelodyLane
The biggest concern was that she maintained contact with a former lover; that is just an invitation to an affair. Does she have other opposite sex friendships?

Have you and your wife taken steps to change that environment?


To my knowledge she has no OS relationships that aren't family friends we share in common. I have never been concerned or jealous of her behavior until and during her EA. I knew in my gut......I didn't know....but I knew. Her behavior screamed of it. I know I asked her at least twice during that time if she had a boyfriend, which was laughed off as a crazy idea.

I'm not as naive or presumptuous as I was and am much more sensitive to these things, but the most serious threat is her heart and the special and exclusive place she has devoted to this POSOM. I want to KNOW he is OUT. I want to believe I am the only member of her club and have full privileges, which in my mind were previously granted only to afore mentioned POSOM.



I know how you feel there, brother.


I would suggest you take another look at the basic concepts again, and pay some special attention to the description of the Love Bank.

Taking the Love Bank model into account, what you think of as a "special place" is just a positive balance in the Love Bank.

What makes a positive balance? When someone meets our needs in the way we like them met. Sometimes this happens naturally and effortlessly, sometimes it requires we inform our spouse how to better meet our needs.

Love Busters, being negative associations, make withdrawals.

When people have pay no regard to their love bank balances, when we don't make the most efficient deposits, when we make frequent withdrawals... that decimates our account in the Love Bank of our spouse.

So... when someone has a low balance with their spouse, and they allow someone else to meet their Emotional Needs... there is a contrast in those accounts.

Your goal is not to erase the balance of your former competitor, but to ECLIPSE that balance so that it is meaningless in comparison.


The "ease" in which this betrayal was carried out was facilitated by the fact that you did the heavy lifting of day-to-day life, and all that had to happen in the affair is positive interaction.


So, your goal is to turn day-to-day life into positive interaction; learn what her top emtional needs are and how she likes them met, spend a sufficient amount of time together meeting the four intimate emotional needs, and absolutely minimizing Love Bank withdrawals. During this time you will ensure that her Love Bank is closed to members of the opposite sex.


It won't happen fast, brother. It took me a year before the intermittent bouts of anger subsided, and around 2 before I began to feel forgiveness.

Keep that in mind; it's going to take time and consistency on both of your parts.


"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Niels Bohr

"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer

"Fair speech may hide a foul heart." - Samwise Gamgee LOTR
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Originally Posted By: GloveOil
Originally Posted By: LatefortheSky
My concern and jealousy were because the relationship was much longer, more intimate and she had much more attachment than had been told to me originally. though he lived 3000 miles away they had contact with each other while he was engaged and after he married, which was 5 years before we started dating.
LFTS, my married affair-partner had also been engaged in another affair, to her ex-BF from high school. He lived in Florida, she in Virginia, and so let me just spare the details I was told & simply tell you that distances of 1,000 miles or more are no assurance that an affair wasn't physical.

I'm very sorry you've had cause to find your way here, on account of people like I once turned into.

The way back -- to a better marriage than what you've ever had before, for that will need to be your goal -- has to start with complete ("radical") honesty; because without that, you'll just never feel the necessary level of emotional safety with her to be able to fully reinvest in her & see her as the person she (says she) wants to become for you.

Given what I've seen of her story from what she's posted, I'd say you've gotta start with a polygraph. Her story doesn't just sound fully believeable to me; and I know from affairs, unfortunately from the inside. If she's been on the up-&-up in what she's told you about it, then she'll very likely pass, which will give you more confidence with all the other steps you'll both need to take going forward. But given the account she's spinning, I'd say that in your case, the poly has to be Step#1.


I concur. There is trickle truth and pieces and parts that don't quite fit. Polygraph to be sure you are at ground truth.

AM


BW - 65
WH - 60
M - 35 years
D-day - 17 Apr 08
DD - 44, DS - 30, DS - 23
H broke contact 11/1/09
Back in love after the worst thing that every happened to us.
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Regarding your wife's thread, there seemed to be several contradictions/gaps in her account of the affair. If she took a polygraph, it might help you to fill in the blanks.

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Here you go.
Polygraph Testing


FWW/BW (me)
WH
2nd M for both
Blended Family with 7 kids between us
Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.



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Originally Posted By: GloveOil
Originally Posted By: LatefortheSky
My concern and jealousy were because the relationship was much longer, more intimate and she had much more attachment than had been told to me originally. though he lived 3000 miles away they had contact with each other while he was engaged and after he married, which was 5 years before we started dating.
LFTS, my married affair-partner had also been engaged in another affair, to her ex-BF from high school. He lived in Florida, she in Virginia, and so let me just spare the details I was told & simply tell you that distances of 1,000 miles or more are no assurance that an affair wasn't physical.

I'm very sorry you've had cause to find your way here, on account of people like I once turned into.

The way back -- to a better marriage than what you've ever had before, for that will need to be your goal -- has to start with complete ("radical") honesty; because without that, you'll just never feel the necessary level of emotional safety with her to be able to fully reinvest in her & see her as the person she (says she) wants to become for you.

Given what I've seen of her story from what she's posted, I'd say you've gotta start with a polygraph. Her story doesn't just sound fully believeable to me; and I know from affairs, unfortunately from the inside. If she's been on the up-&-up in what she's told you about it, then she'll very likely pass, which will give you more confidence with all the other steps you'll both need to take going forward. But given the account she's spinning, I'd say that in your case, the poly has to be Step#1.


GO, for the record, my wife has offered several times to take a polygraph. My own observations regarding polygraphs has made less than confident in them. I have seen cases where people I know lied, passed, in employment situations. This was before it was illegal to use them this way. This is why I havent jumped at the opportunity. I have though considered the possibility of doing this same thing using a hypnotist, which she also said she was willing to do.

I do know that my FFW was counseled by a priest (who married us) to never tell me she met the OM. She eventually sought other counsel and the truth began to come out, albeit slowly. My first question after I knew she had even one email contact was, did you meet? . I knew what the OM did for a living and knew that he traveled often.

I came home for lunch one day, several months ago. This was the day after I learned the affair was 2 years, not a few weeks. My wife wanted me to watch a video with Dr. Harley. After the video, she turned to me and told me they had met. She swore on our childrens lives that nothing happened. BTW, I had sent an email a month earlier informing OMs BW of the inappropriate communication. I then sent one when I knew the duration and on the following day another that told her they had a date. When I received no response, I called OMs BW the next day.

Regarding the date, obviously this is a red hot button for me. I have great recollection of that time, which has made it tough on me. The initial proposal from my FFW was that she was going to spend the weekend with my sons best friends mom, her sister and a couple of their friends at a spa in a resort area about 45 minutes south of where we live. I said, are you nuts, youre a married woman with four children, they are all single.this is inappropriate and unacceptable for you..nothing but trouble. Apparently POSOM was supposedly surprised and annoyed with my lack of understanding. I mean he had to suffer through the inconvenience of extending his business trip, switching hotels so that he wouldnt be seen with my wife by someone who knew him and his wife and airline hassles, sheeh.

A couple days later I was asked if going for the afternoon and evening was cool. I said that was fine. The rainy Friday arrives. I come home from work and she is preparing to go. As she is leaving I give her a hug and a kiss. I tell her, enjoy yourself, you deserve it. While going out the door she turns and says, if its raining tonight I might stay there and come home in the morning. This I think was around 3:00pm. She arrived home just after 11:30, looking really good. I was sitting on the couch watching TV with the kids; she sat next to me on the arm of the couch, gave me a kiss and put her arm around me.

She has told me that until she got into the car to leave, she was nervous that I would see in her face what was in her heart. Once on the road she says terrible guilt crept up on her and she started worrying about an eternity in Hell. The hurt and angry part of me would like to dismiss that as crap. The truth is that her sincere spirituality is what I always loved most in her. I would like to believe that the good Lord works in us even when we dont give Him much room and can mercifully spare us from ourselves, even when logic may suggest otherwise.

I have now seen the worst side of my wife and it certainly tells me of course she did something terrible. But I have 22 years of her life that I have been part of and as frightening as it may be at the moment, I feel obliged to consider things in totality. I dont want to; its easier to stay angry I think. My faith in God is the only thing that prompts me to even attempt to move from that place. I have shared so much time with her in prayer and I know the love she has for the Lord, we both just got so lazy with our prayer life.

Yesterday after my wife posted on the board, things got real emotional around here. I suggested we get out and take a walk around the marina. Just to unwind and relax. She sat and spoke with me in maybe a less guarded way than I can ever recall. This is a spark of hope I desperately needed and I pray it is only the beginning.

Sorry for rambling.a lot going on upstairs.

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Originally Posted By: LatefortheSky
[
GO, for the record, my wife has offered several times to take a polygraph. My own observations regarding polygraphs has made less than confident in them. I have seen cases where people I know lied, passed, in employment situations. This was before it was illegal to use them this way. This is why I havent jumped at the opportunity. I have though considered the possibility of doing this same thing using a hypnotist, which she also said she was willing to do.


Late, we have had exceptional outcomes with experienced polygraphers who stick to 2-3 key questions. The way we suggest doing this is giving your wife a list of all of YOUR questions 2 days beforehand and giving her one last chance to come clean before the test. You and the tester will work out which 2-3 questions to ask and she won't know what they are until the test. This way, you usually get the full truth beforehand and use the test to verify her truthfulness.

What usually happens is the BS gets more "truth" before the test because no WS likes flunking a polygraph. Keep in mind, that most police departments use them and place great value on their reliability.

I have to admit that her story about the night in question is very incredible.

Most police stations know of reliable testers in their area. The best ones are the former police officers and FBI agents.

The reason we are bringing this up to you is because if the full truth is not on the table, it becomes an impediment to recovery.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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Also do your children know of your WWs transgressions? You should let them know.

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Dude, take your 12:42pm post (your portion) and print it out. Cross out, or highlight, everything dependent on "She said...." They are ALLLLLLLLL lies. The sooner you understand that, the sooner you will see the task that is before you.

"There is none so blind as he who will not see!" That's YOU, friend!

Go ahead, prove me wrong (I was....once!). Get her to take the poly.

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Originally Posted By: LatefortheSky
GO, for the record, my wife has offered several times to take a polygraph. My own observations regarding polygraphs has made less than confident in them. ...
Well, some skepticism is probably also warranted regarding the reliability of the word of someone who's got a track-record of maintaining a 4-year coverup.
Originally Posted By: LatefortheSky
...Regarding the date, obviously this is a red hot button for me. ...

...The hurt and angry part of me would like to dismiss [her account of events] as crap. The truth is that her sincere spirituality is what I always loved most in her. I would like to believe that the good Lord works in us even when we dont give Him much room and can mercifully spare us from ourselves, even when logic may suggest otherwise.

Sorry you're having to wrestle with all of this, LFTS. Nothing about this infidelity stuff is logical, is it?

I'm not here trying to cast doubt on the Lord (as if I'd be able to do that anyway). I'm just sharing my experience for what it's worth, and in that experience, I've seen as close-up as anyone how God sometimes allows men & women to do some pretty stupid things to show us that He means what He says about the consequences of willfulness & selfishness. Sometimes He'll pull us back from the edge, and sometimes He'll actually not stop us from walking right on over it or banging our heads into walls until we seek Him. Depends on how far off we've wandered, I guess.

I guess people would've regarded me as a pretty 'spiritual' person before my affair. My affair partner, too. We started cultivating an inappropriate friendship simply as an outcome of spending too much time together, alone, practicing music & conversing, and not having the proper boundaries that would've kept us ever from being alone together for any reason in the first place. Initially, we were just conversing about the music. Spiritual music -- for the church music team on which we both were singers. How's that for spiritual people?

So I don't know from experience that spiritual people necessarily have a much better track record when it comes to going down roads we know we shouldn't, than people at large. Maybe we just have a certain frame-of-reference for dealing with the consequences. But we can be as mendacious as the rest of 'em, not only when we're in a sinful mindset, but even afterwards, when we're scared of the consequences & still trying to cover our bums sometimes.

I hope Trueform is indeed telling you the full story, although if I were her, I might make you physically stand in the doorway to keep me from taking that exam. (Just to show you how much I wanted to be open & honest for you.) I'm not tryin' to bust your chops at all. I wish you & your wife all the best. Marriages can be made better & stronger after an emotional and/or a physical affair than they were before. Like you, my wife & I also had a lot of good years upon which to rebuild. My skepticism comes not from knowing your wife's heart, of course; and it's certainly possible she wasn't as bad as I was. It's just that I just know from too-firsthand experience what people are capable of, even the ones you never think would fall that far. When people who're in the throes of an infatuation / emotional affair are still in partial control of themselves, it'd be pretty exceptional for them to go to the other person's hotel. Not when they both have access to cars & could easily meet at a restaurant. At that stage, before the clothes have come off, they still care about maintaining plausible deniability. Once hotels are in the equation, then things are into the territory of implausible deniability. And in my experience (which again, I admit, may not be universally relevant or applicable), it's implausible for a good reason.

You've got the best advice you can get. I would even say the Lord has laid some tools at your & Trueform's feet, in the form of such advice & resources. What the two of you do with those tools, is up to you.

Hang in there.


Me: FWH, 50
My BW: Trust_Will_Come, 52, tall, beautiful & heart of gold
DD23, DS19
EA-then-PA Oct'08-Jan'09
Broke it off & confessed to BW (after OW's H found out) Jan.7 2009
Married 25 years & counting.
Grateful for forgiveness. Working to be a better husband.
"I wear the chain I forged in life... I made it link by link, and yard by yard" ~Jacob Marley's ghost, A Christmas Carol
"Do it again & you're out on your [bum]." ~My BW, Jan.7 2009
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Originally Posted By: LatefortheSky
She swore on our childrens lives that nothing happened....she says terrible guilt crept up on her and she started worrying about an eternity in Hell...I have now seen the worst side of my wife and it certainly tells me of course she did something terrible. But...I feel obliged to consider things in totality....we both just got so lazy with our prayer life.


When she swore on your kids' lives that nothing happened, was that before or after she disclosed the she kissed OM and went to his hotel room? And why is she claiming that she was deterred by the idea that she would spend eternity in hell if she had sexual contact with OM? Neither the Bible nor the Catholic church teach that adultery is an unforgivable sin. You say you have seen the worst side of your wife and know she did something terrible, but you still don't know what. How can you "consider things in totality" while she continues to withhold information regarding the physical aspect of her affair? The problem isn't that you "got lazy with your prayer life"; the problem is that your wife's feelings for the OM are like an addiction, and it appears that she still hasn't come clean.

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