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Originally Posted by LongHaul
I just wanted to see my mother. I wanted to talk with her about anything other than my marriage and home life.

LH, I know you miss your mother. You are a good guy and I know you are really trying. I am going to suggest another approach that might make your wife more willing to bring your mother back into the fold in the future. Your goal is to get your mother back into your life in a way that complements your marriage and puts your wife FIRST. Your wife should always come first.

I strongly feel that your mother should apologize to your wife and daughters before she is integrated back into your lives. It is almost impossible to forgive her for something when she doesn't even admit it is wrong. And if she doesn't understand it was wrong, she is not a safe person to your marriage and is bound to just do it again.

That will be the first step in making amends to your wife. And she must guarantee that she never hurts her again by bullying her or trying to turn your daughters against her. Her attitude about infidelity is absolutely destructive to marriages and should be abandoned when around your family.

I would wait a few weeks until things calm down. Then send your mother a letter telling her how much she has hurt your wife and daughters. Tell her that this rift cannot be resolved until she apologizes to your wife and agrees to never hurt her again with this wayward line of thinking. [you need to be very forthright with her about how destructive her approach is - I hope you include my analogy about the rape victim so she GETS it] I would ask her to send your wife a letter of apology. Then you read her letter of apology and make sure it is sincere before you give it to your wife. If it is not sincere, or contains weasel words, then send it back to your mother and tell her this won't work.

This will demonstrate to your wife that you care and that you will stand up for her. She desperately needs that right now.

In the meantime, I would not speak to or see your mom until this is resolved. After that, make all of your communications with her with your wife present. That will make your wife feel much more safe and she will know your M is not backstabbing her. That puts your wife FIRST and effectively integrates your mother back into your lives.

And this is ALL contingent upon your wife's feelings. I would suggest this to your wife and see how she feels. As your mother's son, it falls to you to set her straight when she harms your family, Longhaul. You are the protector of your wife and children. If my son and DIL told me I was harming them, you bet your butt I would stop it. My DIL is the gatekeeper to my future grandchildren and I need to know if I am harming that relationship so I can knock it off.

I know your mother cares about you and she should be grateful for an opportunity to make this right.

I think this approach will help your wife heal and will bring your mother back into the fold.

What do you think?


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Excellent, Mel. hurray

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Originally Posted by MelodyLane
You are a good guy and I know you are really trying.
You need to retract this, though, and find a more appropriate phrase to describe him.


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I feel the emotions are too high here. StrongerMe screamed at me repeatedly last night and told me she hated me over and over. She told me I didn�t have the heart to stay in this. She has told me repeatedly this week to just go back to my old job and see if I can get it back. She told me she wants me to post. She told me yesterday it pisses her off when I have comments from people and it makes sense to me and I listen to them. All I have to do is listen to her.

She wants me to leave the house. Last time I left the house my children called crying and asking why I left them. I am not leaving, we spent 11 years renting and saving our money. We spent 3 years fixing everything in this house. We bought the side lot for protection last year. All I have heard for 2 months is how she hates this house. If she hates it then she can get out. I don�t hate it.

My fears happened last night. StrongerMe told me she was done. Hated me and wanted me out. This was my fear and I told her repeatedly I am scared to death about not having a job. I received another rejection letter today. You can say this is my fault because I am the one that had the affair.

This is the facts:

We have been together for 20 years. I was in an affair 4 � years ago that lasted 6 mths. Kiss the OW two years ago. I have never been with anyone else. This woman has broken about 4 marriages and has been in multiple affairs. I have been friends and acquaintances with females for our 20 years together and have never even thought of cheating on StrongerMe. Where I went wrong was not having EP�s in place. If the OW had openly proposed an affair I would have stopped the friendship there. StrongerMe told me to stop my friendship with her and I talked to her to end it. The OW played psychological mind games. I was guilty of my actions and wasn�t innocent. I regretted it every time but in hindsight at this point I was addicted to the relationship.

Since the end of November I have been trying to do everything I can to help heal the damage of by betrayal and actions. There are a lot of bad habits in our relationship. I like MB�s because it has solutions.

My goals were this:

Have a truthful and honest relationship with my wife above everyone. Spend 15 to 20 hour of UA with her every week and rebuild our marriage.

Have a truthful and honest relationship with my children and try to heal the lies I had told them and how I have let them down and betrayed them.

Have a truthful and honest family relationship with my wife and children together.


We have a truck that wasn�t running for over a month. It was worked on and would run and then quit. This was a two week process. I have a friend that lives about an hour away and told me he would work on it in about 2 to 3 weeks. He told me that I could bring it this weekend. I talked to StongerMe about taking it Saturday but the weather was too bad. I talked about Sunday in the afternoon and soon as it warms up some. On Sunday afternoon I asked her could she follow me so I could drop off the truck. She told me to do it another day because it was on her way to work and I could meet her there. Our weekdays are already crazy without adding this to it. I told her it would only save the time she would be driving to work which would be about 40 minutes. She was sitting and watching TV with my oldest daughter who wasn�t feeling well. She didn�t want to do it then and I said OK. I went outside and kept cleaning out the truck. I called a friend and asked him if he would follow me to drop of the truck. He said he would in about an hour. StrongerMe came outside and said she would follow me to take the truck. I called my friend and cancelled.

Here is where I need help.

She told me I was doing Independent Behavior and was no following POJA.

I just wanted to get the truck an hour away and get back home. My oldest daughter was sick and I was fine with StrongerMe staying with her. I found another way to get it there and it is done. This turning into an argument kills me it drives me to a level of frustration so fast. Can you give me some solutions?

My youngest daughter wouldn�t help the oldest to make her bed up because she had slept in the bed. They were arguing when I came in. I told the youngest to leave and go to her room. I helped the oldest make up her bed in 2 minutes and told her not to let her sister sleep with her again if she isn�t going to help her. They didn�t argue anymore over that. Should I have done anything different with this?

I feel I have no say so in this family. StongerMe says that I do not follow the POJA.

This in our POJA:

We were going out on a date and I told StrongerMe where I would like to go eat. She said no and told me what she wanted to eat and I suggested a place that served that food. She said ok. Whatever I suggest she tells me why it is wrong. It is like the commercial, Do you like the Blue one or the Red one? I like the Blue one. She will get the Red one.

I don�t really care what we do as long as we are doing something. I just want to be with StrongerMe and I hate arguing. I don�t want it to be complicated. I just want to be with her and be talking with her and her being happy.

About my mother:

We have not reached a POJA. I have suggestions that I feel are good and I would like to go with. I will not do anything until we reach a POJA.

Since D-Day StrongerMe has changed and we have been doing UA time every week. She is going through 100 times what I am going through. I have changed. I want to be with StrongerMe. I tell her when I am wrong. I apologize when I am wrong. I have had complete honesty and transparency with her. She wants me to talk to her and tell her what I am thinking and I do. I am sorry I get depressed and scared because I do not have a job and have never been without a job in my life. I have laid everything down at her feet that she has asked. I agree it wasn�t to her timeframe but I did it. I do see the fog I was in and I have told her how MB�s was right. How she was right about things. She is at her end and I just don�t think we are going to make it through this. We can�t even take a truck and hour away without an argument. I just feel we are out of control. I am so unhappy.

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You have access to Dr Harley and your coach. What do they say about your current situation?


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Originally Posted by LongHaul
She wants me to leave the house. Last time I left the house my children called crying and asking why I left them. I am not leaving, we spent 11 years renting and saving our money. We spent 3 years fixing everything in this house. We bought the side lot for protection last year. All I have heard for 2 months is how she hates this house. If she hates it then she can get out. I don�t hate it.

When was Dday?

clap MrRollieEyes

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The OW played psychological mind games.

skeptical MrRollieEyes

My mind is caught on this so I'll respond later...


BW - me
exWH - serial cheater
2 awesome kids
Divorced 12/2011




Many a good man has failed because he had a wishbone where his backbone should have been.

We gain strength, and courage, and confidence by each experience in which we really stop to look fear in the face... we must do that which we think we cannot.
--------Eleanor Roosevelt
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Originally Posted by LongHaul
We have been together for 20 years. I was in an affair 4 � years ago that lasted 6 mths. Kiss the OW two years ago. I have never been with anyone else.

Longhaul, the bad thing is that she is put in a position to have to fight for everything and it is clear she has just given up. If this marriage makes it - which looks doubtful - it is going to have to all be on you to carry the load. She can't be in self protect mode any more. You have to do the protecting.

And your situation is much worse than most. Not only did you have an affair, but you lied to her for almost 5 years about it AND stayed in touch with the OW in the meantime. So your situation is much, much worse than most because of 5 years of fraud and deceit. For 5 years you had secrets with a skank to which your wife was not privy.

I worry that your wife is headed for a nervous breakdown and I mean that sincerely. This is just too much for any person to have to endure. I don't know what Dr Harley will say but I suspect he might suggest a separation if this resistance and hostilty can't stop. She can't take any more.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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This happened yesterday and this morning. I am talking to the coach in the morning.

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Longhaul,

Our coach was excellent at getting to the heart of H's and my problems.

Mel is right. Your wife is exhausted. Talk to your coach about how you can be proactive and take the recovery lead.

AM


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WH - 65
M - 35 years
D-day - 17 Apr 08
H broke contact 11/1/09
Back in love after the worst thing that every happened to us.
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The problem with the truck was you made arrangements without telling her. If the situation were reversed would you feel comfortable with that? You are used to independent behaviour.

The challenge with POJA is not to choose between red and blue but to find a purple that you both love. I think this only comes with practice and I feel that you are both wanting a quick fix. I'm sure SM would appreciate if u would take the lead on some of the issues.


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Originally Posted by LongHaul
We have a truck that wasn�t running for over a month. It was worked on and would run and then quit. This was a two week process. I have a friend that lives about an hour away and told me he would work on it in about 2 to 3 weeks. He told me that I could bring it this weekend. I talked to StongerMe about taking it Saturday but the weather was too bad. I talked about Sunday in the afternoon and soon as it warms up some. On Sunday afternoon I asked her could she follow me so I could drop off the truck. She told me to do it another day because it was on her way to work and I could meet her there. Our weekdays are already crazy without adding this to it. I told her it would only save the time she would be driving to work which would be about 40 minutes. She was sitting and watching TV with my oldest daughter who wasn�t feeling well. She didn�t want to do it then and I said OK. I went outside and kept cleaning out the truck. I called a friend and asked him if he would follow me to drop of the truck. He said he would in about an hour. StrongerMe came outside and said she would follow me to take the truck. I called my friend and cancelled.

LH, it is hard initially to learn how to negotiate so don't give up. The problem in the scenario above is that you didn't have her enthuistic agreement to take the truck, so you made a unilateral decision. And when you did that, she CAPITULATED and took you. A very bad move. Just because you decided to take the truck on a certain day, does not mean it has to be done. It should be done at a time and in a way that makes you both happy.

You are both stuck on my way or her way and tend to think in win/lose terms. You have to follow the basic rules of negotiation and keep negotiating until you find solutions that suit you BOTH.

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Here is where I need help.

She told me I was doing Independent Behavior and was no following POJA.

Yes, that is what you did in the above incident.

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I just wanted to get the truck an hour away and get back home.

But this was your unilateral decision and not your wife's. Her feelings were ignored. That is why you have arguments.

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I feel I have no say so in this family. StongerMe says that I do not follow the POJA.

Well, you do have a say. But you and your wife are learning to make decisions that take the others feelings into account.

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This in our POJA:

We were going out on a date and I told StrongerMe where I would like to go eat. She said no and told me what she wanted to eat and I suggested a place that served that food. She said ok. Whatever I suggest she tells me why it is wrong. It is like the commercial, Do you like the Blue one or the Red one? I like the Blue one. She will get the Red one.

My husband and I have a short list of restaurants that we both like. We have a standing agreement to NEVER capitulate on the restaurant issue. It rarely takes us 15 seconds to negotiate restaurants anymore. At first it was infuriating because we are both so picky. It just took practice.

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I don�t really care what we do as long as we are doing something. I just want to be with StrongerMe and I hate arguing. I don�t want it to be complicated. I just want to be with her and be talking with her and her being happy.

It will be complicated at first because you are not used to making joint decisions. That will come with practice. But, DON'T ARGUE!!


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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And you are not unusual in that POJA does not come easy for you. It was very hard for me, too. My DH and I had a big fight in the grocery store. We posted to Dr Harley about it in 2007:

Originally Posted by Melodylane
Hi Dr. Harley, we are struggling with the implementation of POJA. I knew this would be a problem for me because of my penchant for independent behavior. [I scored a 20 on your test and DH scored a 5] But he seems to continually engage in angry outbursts. Over micky mouse stuff, usually related to money, even though we make a good living and are financially comfortable.

Can you look at this dialogue, which happened in the grocery store today, and tell me how this should be done? This is the 2nd week in a row he has exploded in the grocery store. You had mentioned learning POJA skills in the grocery store and it is not going well!

Mel: does a salad sound good to you for dinner?
DH: that's fine
We approach the produce section and DH picks up a head of lettuce

Mel: I had planned on getting kale, romaine or spinach because there is no nutritional value in lettuce
DH: says nothing
MEL: grabs a bag of shredded romaine lettuce
DH: I REFUSE TO PAY THAT MUCH FOR A BAG OF LETTUCE!!! [it is $2.99 whereas the head of lettuce is $.89] PUT IT BACK!!
Mel, horrified and embarrassed at this outburst, tries to ignore him because she can't believe he is acting so disrespectfully over $2.99
DH follows her and says again: "MEL, PUT THAT BACK!! I REFUSE!!"

I take the salad dressing I am carrying, slam it into the cart and say "that's it, I am done" and leave the store. He follows me out to the car with "I'm sorry, I'm sorry, you can go back in and get the groceries. I will stay out here and leave you alone."

We had a similar scene the week before where he went into a rage over tortillas. I tossed 2 packages into the cart and then decided to add another. [we had company coming] He pitched a fit and demanded I put back the 3rd package.

Dr. Harley, just so you know, I am 50 years old, have a successful career, and am financially comfortable, and can damn well afford tortillas and romaine lettuce.

Every time he has one of these meltdowns over micky mouse stuff, I can hardly stand him for a week. What do you suggest?

Originally Posted by Dr Harley
MelodyLane: There are two separate issues that should be addressed in your marriage: angry outbursts and independent behavior. The more important of the two is the angry outbursts.

The trigger for your husband's angry outburst is your independent behavior. It's the reason for his angry outburst, but it's no excuse. Your husband should attend anger management training until he can control his anger under all circumstances, regardless of how frustrating they may be to him. My position on this issue is repeated throughout my books, articles and radio show. Anger solves no problems -- they create new ones.

Originally Posted by goldwinger, ML's husband
I realise that there is a problem on how we commicate and I will work on resolving that problem.

I am confused on the angry outburst comment though. At no time did I get angry and have an outburst. My idea of of an outburst is yelling and screaming but I guess that is not the case? Talking to ML though I do see where she thinks it was, so I apologise And will take the approipate actions to amke sure it does not happen again. Honestly looking back, it shouldnt of been that big of deal to me and should of let it pass.

However,It seems to me that whenever I disagree with ML, that her first commment is that I am trying to control her. Same could be said about POJA.....

Originally Posted by Dr.Harley
goldwinger59: If your wife's description of your interaction is correct, you had an angry outburst. It was not simply letting her know that you were not enthusiastic about buying the Romaine lettuce. Granted, she may have problems with independent behavior, but if you respond with an angry reaction, it will lead to either a fight or her withdrawal from you. So the first order of business should be to identify your angry reactions, and completely eliminate them from your conversation.

As for her independent behavior, it's an issue that you have probably been trying to iron out for some time. It's tough getting used to asking how a spouse feels about a decision before it's made, particularly when you think you have the right to make unilateral decisions. But your wife wants to get into the habit of using the POJA, and the more you practice it, the better you'll get at it. Just don't get angry with her when she fails the test.

Best wishes
Willard F. Harley, Jr.

Originally Posted by Melodylane
Hi Dr. Harley, I wanted to give you an update on how well your advice has worked. We are somewhat surprised at how different things are now compared to the past. The changes we have made in IB and AO have had a domino effect and are impacting other emotional needs in a positive way. In the past, my H would blow up about once a month, usually in response to my IB and then I would withdraw. I have to admit I was pretty bad, though.

He has not had an angry outburst since you told him that [I think he was SHOCKED to be told he was having an AO], mostly because he is now relaxed around me. He is relaxed around me because I am not "surprising" him with regular bouts of IB. We POJA most of our spending so he doesn't worry all the time, and he gets to rathole money every month. [he loves to save money]

This change has led to him meeting my need for admiration, affection and my willingness to meet his for RC because he is so much more pleasant to be around.

The key, indeed, was learning to POJA in the grocery store. Our visits to the grocery store today are pleasant and enjoyable. We know pretty much what we want and what is acceptable to the other so there is no longer fireworks. This has expanded to all other areas of our life.

Thanks, Mel

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MelodyLane:

While there are no excuses for angry outbursts in marriage, there are reasons, and independent behavior usually tops the list. I'm happy to hear that you're making it easier for your husband to overcome his AOs by avoiding IB. Keep up the good work!

Best wishes
Willard F. Harley, Jr.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Your post was helpful. StrongerMe and I had a talk after supper tonight. She is still angry as she should be. My DD14 told her that when she ask me a question that I do not want to answer that I turn it around and attack with another answer to the DD14. This was an eye opening conversation.

Before this conversation with StrongerMe. I talked to DD14 this afternoon and told her that the whole family is having a hard time with this. Their mother has the most pain to work through in this recovery. I am sorry that she and her sister are hurting and I should have not talked with her about this. I am very sorry and I know they are going through pain.

I started supper and she made the bread. I had to leave and pick up DD11 at practice before StrongerMe got home from work. We had supper together and everyone talked about their day. This is what I really enjoy.

From my talk with StrongerMe tonight after supper, the first 12 years of our marriage was good. The past 6 has gone downhill. On the recovery side, StrongerMe hasn�t been able to heal from the affair because of me dragging around about not having a job, ect� She and my daughter have brought to light that I have a lot of things to work on.

I thought I was a good dad because I was at all the school functions. There would be about 100 mothers and 4 to 5 dads and I was always there. They have always known they were loved and taken care of. My oldest told me today that I really haven�t been part of their life. They mainly remember me just drinking beer in the backyard while I cook.

I just thought I was a shell of a man by laying everything down and StrongerMe�s feet and separating from these things. I am learning what makes a man is a good woman behind him holding him up. StrongerMe has been the backbone and I am trying to step into a role that I have never done. I just cook, fix things, drive everybody around and work every day.

We will see what the coach says tomorrow. It doesn�t look too positive on my end.

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I just read StrongerMe's post. Her statements are more accurate than mine. My emotions and mental state are all over the place. I feel like my life is in a whirlwind. I may just be out of my league and over my head on this. I hope I have it in me but I haven't been showing signs so far.

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Those are some great revelations, Longhaul, and I applaud you for listening to your wife and daughter and using their feedback in a positive manner.

I want to encourage you to stick with this for this reason: it might be tough right now, but there is gold at the end of this rainbow. If you and your wife end your marriage, there is no gold at the end of that rainbow, only more pain for all of you. Learning good habits in marriage is very hard at first, and I suspect it is especially hard for you because you are very independent. I know the feeling.

But it is much, much harder to have a bad marriage than a good one. Once you learn these new habits, your marriage will become a place of joy and fulfillment. I promise you that. If an independent, hardheaded person like me can have that, so can you. It was no walk in the park for me either. But today it IS. And it will be for you too if you stick to it.

I think the greatest thing you can do for your marriage right now is focus on taking care of your wife. She needs the greatest of care right now. The rewards will be great for YOU. The payoff will bring much more happiness than any of your former bad habits.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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[quote=LongHaul StrongerMe hasn�t been able to heal from the affair because of me dragging around about not having a job, ect� She and my daughter have brought to light that I have a lot of things to work on.

I thought I was a good dad because I was at all the school functions. There would be about 100 mothers and 4 to 5 dads and I was always there.
[/quote]

Showing up to all of the kids events is not being a good dad because when you do not have a job you have nothing to keep you from being there.

I do not remember why are you out of work?

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This is a letter my DD14 wrote to the OW:

I would hope we could do this but it is looking like a separation is about to happen on the homefront:

This is Longhaul's oldest daughter. My parents don't want me to write this letter, but I feel like I need to in order to have closure on this part of my life. After I write this letter, I refuse to speak your name or even think of you ever again.

I just wanted you to know that although you have made a valiant attempt, you have not succeeded in ripping my family apart. Because of you, my life was almost ruined and torn apart.

I know that you are not the only culprit in this crime. My father was a part of it too. But, you could never hope to be as great of a person as he is because he admitted to his crime and is working on his marriage for the sake of me, my sister, and my mother.

You, on the other hand, have kept this matter from everyone. Even now, when it has come out, you still won't admit to it. I know that you are angry about your father-in-law finding out about this because you don't want him or your kids to know about this side of you.

But, when you lie awake at night thinking about the pain this has brought upon you, know that you have caused me the same pain tenfold. I cried for hours and wanted to kill myself thinking that I would no longer have a family that was whole.

I don't think that I can ever fully recover from the pain that you have caused. You are a very selfish person. You were not thinking about how your choices would affect your family and mine.

I have absolutely no respect for you because you are not trying to fix your marriage for the sake of your children. My dad is. At least he is trying to fix the mistakes he has made and help to ease my heartache. I am disappointed in my father, but at least he is honest. This earns him my respect, something you will never possess.

I don't want a reply to this letter. You are toxic to me and I want to get on with my life together with my family. Do not attempt to ever speak to any member of my family again.

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I had the affair with a co-worker. I quit my job to help my wife heal and separate from the affair. It had been over but it was triggering my wife. It also did have me in the fog now that I am out of there. I went to all things with my children when I was working. I felt like we were a close family but now I am seeing I could and should have done so much more. It looks like we are about to separate soon.

Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 6,352
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Joined: Mar 2010
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Dude, I'll admit to having several biases working in my "formulation of advice generator" right now, but you need some serious "man up" therapy.

A person does not need a motorcycle to prove one's worthiness. A man needs to understand
- what is important,
- the need to protect that,
- and the commitment to doing so.

You're failing in all three areas, friend.

And what makes this all the more damning is that you have no claim to ignorance in these matters. People here have been investing (wasting?) their time on this thread and your BW's telling you both what you should be doing.

And your response? Pout, sulk, and mourn. You have shown ZERO willingness to provide the power to the recovery bus while we help BW steer the thing.

I cannot imagine a more salient point than your 14 yo daughter feeling the need to write a letter to OW, and you not being too ashamed to post it here. What a condemnation of your lacking adult responsibility! Do you feel better that DD has deflected most of her bile toward OW, instead of to the true target, you?

I'm going to have to stop writing. I can feel the ***edits*** getting ready to flow.

Let me close by saying if this separation does happen, it will be because that is what you WANTED to have happen all along.

Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 82
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I talked with the coach this morning.

StrongerMe is talking with the coach in about an hour.

I am going to read more in the MB book and we will talk tonight.

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