Welcome to the
Marriage Builders® Discussion Forum

This is a community where people come in search of marriage related support, answers, or encouragement. Also, information about the Marriage Builders principles can be found in the books available for sale in the Marriage Builders® Bookstore.
If you would like to join our guidance forum, please read the Announcement Forum for instructions, rules, & guidelines.
The members of this community are peers and not professionals. Professional coaching is available by clicking on the link titled Coaching Center at the top of this page.
We trust that you will find the Marriage Builders® Discussion Forum to be a helpful resource for you. We look forward to your participation.
Once you have reviewed all the FAQ, tech support and announcement information, if you still have problems that are not addressed, please e-mail the administrators at mbrestored@gmail.com
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 2 of 7 1 2 3 4 5 6 7
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 3,197
U
Member
Offline
Member
U
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 3,197
ETW you have on more than one occassion stated that it was 'horrible' and 'just aweful' to think about being O&H with your wife about your needs that are going unmet. You are hiding behind the grand idea that you are sacrificing being O&H to help maintain her self esteem.

Huh?

Meanwhile, you have readily admitted that you think you are better looking than her, that you have not once in your 18 year marriage complimented her on her looks, and that you routinely gawk at other 'more attractive' women IN HER PRESENCE.

I would wager that she HAS no self esteem after such disgusting behavior over the course of 18 years.

You readily admit she meets all other needs, yet talk about her like she is less than you because of her genetically inclined inability to meet your ideal of beauty. I would LOVE to hear from her side of things, about how YOU are meeting her EN's. I would put money on the fact that O&H, admiration and affection are lacking, at the least.

Have you stopped to take your OWN inventory here? To ask yourself what YOU are bringing to this marriage, short from self proclaimed beauty?

And, btw, PA is generally not a top EN for women. (FYI If you would just take the questionnaire together you could find out what her top EN's are, and how you are meeting those).

It is true that PA is a high EN for many men, seems to be high for you. Yes there are genetic characteristics that each individual must work with. It is possible for your wife to be the best that she can be to meet your need for PA, but you are not even giving her a chance to try due to your unwillingness to even be honest about what your need is and what you would like to see her do to try and meet that need.

Yet you continue to let it be known that you do not find her attractive in much more subtle, sneaky ways, like refusing to compliment her on her looks and oogling pretty women in her presence. (Seriously dude, you can't say 'oh that color looks nice on you...' ONCE in 18 years???).

IMO that is FAR, FAR more damaging than taking the EN questionnaire with her and helping her understand how she can better meet your needs.

But if you don't believe 'us guys' who have fallen off our rockers, call in or email the Harleys. They are the experts.

Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 3,197
U
Member
Offline
Member
U
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 3,197
Originally Posted by ETW
I actually get jealous thinking that she gets to have my good looks, but I have to settle for how she looks.

Oh. Lucky her! I too am so jealous of her getting to experience your good looks all these years!

Nevermind the disrespectful "I am so much better than you" attitude, and the oogling over other women in her presence. She should just be thankful to be with such an amazingly handsome man!

puke

Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985
Likes: 1
M
Member
Offline
Member
M
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985
Likes: 1
Originally Posted by unwritten
Meanwhile, you have readily admitted that you think you are better looking than her, that you have not once in your 18 year marriage complimented her on her looks, and that you routinely gawk at other 'more attractive' women IN HER PRESENCE.

I would wager that she HAS no self esteem after such disgusting behavior over the course of 18 years.

unwritten blows me away with her perspectives sometimes and she does it here again. I can think of nothing more demeaning than being with a man who is gawking at other women.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985
Likes: 1
M
Member
Offline
Member
M
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985
Likes: 1
Originally Posted by ETW
I actually get jealous thinking that she gets to have my good looks, but I have to settle for how she looks.

yuck, most women are not driven by your looks, though. It might grab a look see, but that is about it. The top need of most women is affection and conversation. My last husband was an extremely handsome man and I could hardly stand him because he was a wimp and because he didn't do a good job of meeting my needs. My current husband does a GREAT JOB of meeting my needs and I find him much more attractive than my hunky XH.

Self centered guys are typically a huge turn off to women.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 3,197
U
Member
Offline
Member
U
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 3,197
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
unwritten blows me away with her perspectives sometimes and she does it here again. I can think of nothing more demeaning than being with a man who is gawking at other women.

Always a HUGE compliment coming from you ML.

I wouldn't gawk at another person ON A FIRST DATE because it is so insensitive and disrespectful (and totally unclassy may I add), much less in the presence of my husband and father of my children.

Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 3,197
U
Member
Offline
Member
U
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 3,197
Originally Posted by ETW
I am not having an affair, I think that would only make my feeling 100 times worse knowing a better looking woman could be my partner.

So you would not have an affair, not because of how devastating it would be to your wife and the mother of your children, but because it would make you feel bad for YOURSELF because poor you would have to live your life knowing you *could* have a better looking woman.

The self centeredness of this poster absolutely astounds me.

Listen ETW, you CAN turn this around and have a great marriage using the MB principles. But I will guarentee you that your main focus here should be your OWN side of the street. From what you have written here, your wife has so much more reason to be wondering whether to stay in this marriage than you do.

Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 20,433
Likes: 4
B
Member
Offline
Member
B
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 20,433
Likes: 4
ETW,

Here's a good thread for you to read about another gawker.

IHopefulguy's Thread


FWW/BW (me)
WH
2nd M for both
Blended Family with 7 kids between us
Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.



Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,553
D
Member
Offline
Member
D
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,553
ETW:

I've had several cases like yours where a husband never did find his wife attractive, even when they were dating, but married her for a variety of reasons, usually because she was pregnant. My approach is to help her make as many Love Bank deposits as possible in ways that do not require physical attractiveness, mostly with recreational companionship. My standard assignment is for them to exercise together regularly, and to be together for all leisure and recreational activities. One husband who I counseled, and followed my plan even though he didn't think it would work, called me from his car one day to tell me that for the first time in his relationship with his wife, he was in love. He couldn't wait to be with her, and he found her to be very physically attractive.

While it's true that physical appearance can make massive Love Bank deposits with someone who is not in love, being in love can make an otherwise plain looking person look physically attractive.

So in summary, I would suggest that you focus your attention on exercising together (which would help shape her up), and don't do anything recreational without her. But when you exercise, avoid having other women, especially attractive women, exercising with you. And remember my cardinal rule: 15 hours of undivided attention every week spent in meeting the emotional needs of affection, conversation, sexual fulfillment, and recreational companionship. I wouldn't tell her that you don't find her attractive, though. Instead, I would invite her to join you in these activities that you feel would bring you closer together.

Best wishes,
Willard F. Harley, Jr.

Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985
Likes: 1
M
Member
Offline
Member
M
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985
Likes: 1
Thanks so much for weighing in, Dr Harley!!


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 25
E
ETW Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
E
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 25
Thank you so much Dr. Harley for weighing in. We actually do have a great romantic love relationship, but the tension from the physical void has been building up over time.

I will try to see if I can get her to work out with me, have done so in the past but she says I am too far ahead of her and it just makes her feel badly about herself. I am a lifetime athlete who is still competitive with the younger men in iron man competitions. I currently do tons of recreational athletic activities without her, that will be tough to give up!

I will keep posting back to let you all know our progress with the Doctor's advice.

Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 412
D
Member
Offline
Member
D
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 412
I, too, am glad Dr. Harley weighed in. I've often known that women can develop attraction for a man who initially weren't attractive (my thread is evidence of that) but I've heard people say it's not true for men. I'm so glad Dr. Harley has evidence that a man CAN develop sexual attraction for his otherwise unattractive partner... IF he really wants to.


"If you will stop feeding your feelings, then they will stop controlling you" -Joyce Meyer
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 784
G
Member
Offline
Member
G
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 784
Was interesting Dr Harley said to not tell his wife he was not attracted to her.

Dr Harley has previously advised my husband to not exercise without me. We are in our late 50's. I think I am a physically attractive woman and yet in good shape. I put myself together (hair, makeup, clothes) in a stylish way my husband approves of and I enjoy. I am not overweight.

But my husband is much more athletic and an energizer bunny. He likes to compete. He likes to stay up with the younger crowd. He likes to keep his edge and get a 'high' from going all out.

I'd once believed this tendency to be a positive quality. Certainly for ones physical health and probably mental conditioning its admirable. In the old days my requests to receive time and attention that would draw my husband away from IB activities was subtly sanctioned to not appear as his selfish demand. I was the one making a selfish demand! But my husband was careful to appear to others, especially his IB cohorts to be devoted.

As it were my husband habituated around 'leaving me behind' so to speak. And as he competed on an individual basis one way or another we grew farther and farther apart. At one point I was very ill. He managed to seem like the devoted caretaker who needed to de-stress from all he had on his plate. He was very assessable to his exercise partners and completely un-assessable to me. He had been very turned on to me physically through out the years. But he began to make unflattering comments about my appearance.

My husband became both addicted and compulsive to the sport of karate. Later I learned in of itself -no problem- if we would have been experiencing this sport together as a RC. But eventually he became friends with a woman at the karate do-jo he was attending. She was younger and attractive. She paid attention to him because of his technical help to learn the sport. He came to believe he had an important role to fill while she attended the dojo. He was lead to believe he needed to be a source of encouragement. Our love banks were on empty and soon thru friendship my husband felt he was in love with this woman. He never said anything to this woman about his feelings. It was a fancy and one sided. So it did not evolve into a EA or PA between them. But it sent a loud warning to me and was a threat to our marriage of course.

I can do my reasonable best to keep up my appearance in the years ahead. But we are all going to age and change. You hope your spouse will see your beauty in more then the purely physical and remain by your side through sickness and in health. Enjoy the process of growing old together.

We have to confront my husbands compulsive/addiction tendency to a exercise oriented recreational activity for what it is. If left up to its own devices it will eat our marriage alive. All bets are off.

I have old letters going back 33 years that will attest to his physical attraction to me
but he has shown he can and will re-write history and say to himself what he wants to hear to give himself immunity. I don't mind keeping my own edge and pleasing my husband as long as its out of respect and care for me.


BW 58
WH 61
married 35 years
2 adult children
2 grandchildren

"Love anything and your heart will certainly be wrung and possibly broken. If you want to make sure of keeping it intact, you must give your heart to no one...It will not be broken, it will become unbreakable, impenetrable, irredeemable...The only place outside of Heaven where you can be perfectly safe from dangers and perturbations of love is Hell" c.s. lewis
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 3,197
U
Member
Offline
Member
U
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 3,197
It is interesting to see Dr Harley advise this poster to not tell his wife he is not attracted to her.

This seems contradictory to PORH and the EN questionnaire that requires a rating as well as the specifics as to why someone has given that rating regarding PA.

I am confused.

Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 25
E
ETW Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
E
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 25
OK. First things first, I have spent some time reading thru the other posts here and conclude that we actually have a pretty good marriage, other than the fact that I have never connected with my wife physically.

Second. My wife intercepted the book shipped to the house which prompted questions of why I ordered it. I told her that I thought it would be good to work on our marriage, she started with the 1000 questions wondering if I thought we had marriage problems. We did have a pretty honest discussion where I mentioned my looking at other women, she said she does not like it, but just wrote it off as men will be men. This probably would have been the best time to confront her on the fact I am not attracted to her looks, that our relationship is more of a very deep friendship. But I just couldn't.

We agreed to work thru the questions, but said that she though we already had a good marriage. She brought the book up again later that night and was digging to see why I though we should work on our marriage out of the blue.

I might have to come clean. Never did mention the exercising together part. I am not liking were this is headed, but I also know that right now, our relationship is wide open for a pretty face or attractive figure to penetrate our "pretty good" marriage.

Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 900
C
Member
Offline
Member
C
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 900
Eyes;

You could send an email to the radio show with your question/concern. If you do, you should include that Dr. Harley wrote to you on your forum postings, and that you are unclear about the next step.

I can see you are reticent about how to treat this turn of events.

To send email to the radio program, it is; mbradio@marriagebuilders.com. Include your address, and also your telephone number if you would be willing to be a caller on the show. Otherwise, they will likely read your email and answer it on air.



Me: BW, 57 fWH: 63 (Taffy1) Serial cheater
Presently on the Recovery Road, in the Online program.
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 1,152
H
Member
Offline
Member
H
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 1,152
it is not clear to me why the unappealing shape of your wife is unchangeable. Of course it is not reasonable to expect her to grow enormous breasts out of nowhere, or to expect her nose to change its form spontaneously.

It is on the other hand entirely possible for a pear- or apple-shaped person to loose a bit of their form by exercising and loosing weight.
However, it is hard to do and hard to keep off. So you should do your best to help her.

Also, although you say she has never been your 'favorite' shape, she was good-looking enough for you to marry her and to be happy with her for a number of years. Because you say that at the moment a pretty figure would be a threat to your marriage, this really does sound like you are out of love and it is usually not only because of the physical attraction. Maybe you are resentfull becaus she is not trying, although she does not know how important it is to you.

Although you do not want to tell her she is not attractive, there is nothing against telling her that you would love to exercise with her etc. There must be something about her that was fine with you in those days. And there must be specific points that can be changed, either by flattering clothing or by exercise.

The most important part seems to be to fall in love again. Please follow Dr. Harley's advice. It is your best chance to be happy agein.


me, DH
all the children
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 25
E
ETW Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
E
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 25
Great news!!

My wife and I sat down last night and went over the questionnaire, I decided not to be 100% honest about the fact that I was never attracted to her physically. I don't see how that could help because I chose her for my wife and knew about how I felt about her looks, we are probably a lot different than most the rest of you because she cant try and recapture some of her attractiveness by losing weight or something, it was never there in the first place. But I did tell her it was my #1 need.

I am doing pretty good on meeting her needs, her most important one is financial. I do pretty good in my career and she works only when she wants to sign up for a project. I said that recreational activities was #2 which will allow us to spend time like the Dr suggested.

She said she wants to look good for me and is open to anything that might help, just knowing that made me feel so much better. There was a show called the Swan on TV that showed some people who looked amazing after making changes. I agreed to include her on our retirement planning and letting her know how we will be able to retire. And we will be joining our bank accounts together.

I know that right now, nothing really has changed, but it feels like a new day. Just being able to tell her how important her looks are to me was a big step. She said she knows she is not the best looking out there, she was surprised that this was on the top of my list.

This book should be given to anyone considering marriage as a prerequisite.

Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 1,152
H
Member
Offline
Member
H
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 1,152
Good for you, that you have started things in a positive direction with your wife.

If she stated financial support as her number 1 need, that may be because she is currently not 'in love'. (I am not saying it is so, but it is possible)
People who are in love usually choose intimate emotional needs like affection, conversation and secual fullfillment as their top need.

Are there emotional needs on your wife's side that you are not fullfilling?

Also, you are making me curious as to what your wife's beauty problem is, that is so bothersome to you. I am a medical doctor and I am a bit sceptical about the 'Swan' show you mentioned. Some of the things they do seem to be an improvement, but on the other hand, I have seen instances, where I think the effect could have been reached solely with sport, diet, a good haircut and good make-up.

If you are thinking about plastic surgery and such, it is really important that oyu realize that there can be complications, side effects and results that work out worse than before surgery. Of course there may be medical reasons, but as long as I don't know what condition we are talking about, I cannot say anything sensible about it.

I applaud you and your wife for planning recreational activiites and time together. It will not take long for the two of you to notice a difference.

God bless,

Happyheart


me, DH
all the children
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 3
F
Junior Member
Offline
Junior Member
F
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 3
Hello.. sounds to me that something changed about her. What changed? What part of her is different? Her appearance has always been a weakness for you. What strength is she not demonstrating anymore?

Wish you well

Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 1,171
W
Member
Offline
Member
W
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 1,171
I am guessing that when you first started dating, she didn't meet your Physical Attractiveness need but met so many others that your Love Bank was full.

I am guessing now that she is not meeting all those needs so you are starting to notice the lack of Physical attractiveness.

I am also guessing that maaaayyyyybe you have been slacking in meeting her needs, also leading her to stop meeitng yours and starting a downward cycle.

So, what can you do?

You can start meeting her needs, so she starts meeting yours, so you feel in love again!

Also you could look for a fancy gym with a spa and pool and hot tub and say that you thought you both could join this gym and that it has neat yoga classes and a pool and a hot tub and a spa and it is something you could do together.

Page 2 of 7 1 2 3 4 5 6 7

Link Copied to Clipboard
Forum Search
Who's Online Now
0 members (), 1,079 guests, and 45 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
Mike69, petercgeelan, Zorya, Reyna98, Nofoguy
71,829 Registered Users
Building Marriages That Last A Lifetime
Copyright © 1995-2019, Marriage Builders®. All Rights Reserved.
Site Navigation
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5