Page 35 2nd from the top after Blackraven's response. After Letty asked to have it posted.

Can you give me the time of the post? I show only 14 pages of this thread.

ok, found it! I searched back through your posts.

(t/j alert)

We veterans should standardize our "posts per page" settings,
to facilitate referencing prior communications. BH obviously
has hers set to "10", ML to "25", and myself to "50".

(end t/j)

50 huh??

That's funny, mine is set to 99 posts per page...... so I'm on page 4
Drives SMB crazy

ok, I asked my good friend, SusieQ to transcribe the radio clip and here it is:

JOYCE HARLEY: Well, MRSV writes us, and she has questions regarding just compensation.

She gives us the background.

She said: "I confessed to my husband I had an affair.

Throughout the last five years, I have felt incredibly guilty and that has driven decisions that I regret now.

An example is I granted my husband a divorce with primary custody of our children and no alimony for me."

That's where her guilt is coming in.

She is saying, I deserve nothing.

I don't even deserve you, so yes, I will divorce you.

You don't have to give me alimony and you can have the children, I don't deserve them because of what I did.

"We continue to live together and are still considered married in our religion, but I am not sure my divorced husband considers himself married to me.

Now I am unexpectedly pregnant.

He wants me to terminate the pregnancy; I do not.

He mocks me and disparages my feelings about this.

My divorced husband is not interested in Marriage Builders at this time.

Part of me feels like me having an abortion is just compensation as would leaving him if that's what would ease his resentment and give him some happiness.

However, doing those things would break up the family.

Questions: What qualifies just compensation?

What does not?

Does just compensation have a time limit?

Do you have any advice what I should be doing to recover this marriage given the current situation?"

DR. HARLEY: Well, the just compensation that I recommend has to do with restoring the marriage.

The idea that she should give up custody of the children, that she should give up alimony as just compensation isn't something that I have ever recommended.

So for me, that's not　-- when I talk about just compensation, that's not what -- I'm certainly not talking about an abortion.

JOYCE HARLEY: It looks like she looks at it like punishment for what she has done.

DR. HARLEY: For me, just compensation is not a punishment.

In other words, for you to　-- for you to put the effort and energy into restoring your marriage after you have had an affair isn't a punishment.

What it is, it is a compensation for the affair that isn't going to hurt you.

So what she did, she may consider it just compensation because of the guilt that she felt.

But I wouldn't have ever advised her to do that

JOYCE HARLEY: It was very extreme.

DR. HARLEY: Yes.

I would say that in this particular case, she should get an attorney, figure out what they are going to do if he is unwilling to restore their marriage.

That is a big if.

In other words, if he says I am unwilling to recreate a love relationship, then I would say she needs to see an attorney and get the joint custody and get financial support, whatever the law would allow.

JOYCE HARLEY: Get back into the life of her children.

If he mocks her and disparages her and wants her to abort, to me, he is not interested in this marriage, in this relationship.

DR. HARLEY: Well, he is an abuser and that's something -- she needs to get out of there.

JOYCE HARLEY: Yeah, I would totally agree.

Well, we have more to talk about on today's Marriage Builders radio.

About how MrsV "misremembers" everything and some "friend" named MikeX snuck in their house and posted to MrsV's thread :

Gaslighting is a form of psychological abuse in which false information is presented with the intent of making a victim doubt his or her own memory, perception and sanity.[1] Instances may range simply from the denial by an abuser that previous abusive incidents ever occurred, up to the staging of bizarre events by the abuser with the intention of disorienting the victim. here

MikeX is a classic gaslighter.

as even *broadband* internet is very slow in nz, i keep my pages set to 50 posts per to allay the frustration over page loading time. now that i know 99 is an option...naw. probably keep set at 50. it's an even number!

i wonder if mrsv will ever get back? or will another year go by? i certainly hope -- and mrsv, if you are reading this, please listen -- that she gets a lawyer and reestablishes custody. she divorced under duress, and they have cohabited ever since. i know laws differ from state to state, but what states allow for a divorce when the two are having a sexual relationship? in some states (like CA), one sexual "hook up" between the two null the divorce proceedings, as it's considered evidence of reconciliation.

mrsv also has to consider her work situation with three small children (need for spousal support). although she is close to finishing med school, she will have to consider an internship next. even if her hospital has a creche, she will likely need a nanny. or she may consider allowing bh primary custody until her training is finished, but she needs to know all of her options so she realises she has them and can make informed decisions.

that said, i'm sorry, i believe this is the work of one person. not even two. just one. in which case, she needs far more help than any of us can offer. but - should i be wrong, and there is a mrsv who is really living in this unusual sitch, i hope that for her children's sake she finds the strength to do what needs to be done. i cannot imagine how awful it is for her small children to live in this home. and what they are learning from their parents' relationship.

I agree: living together as a physically intimate couple after a divorce probably changes the settlement she can get at this time. It appears to me that the divorce they do have is more like a written promise of what V_ will settle to if she ever decides to leave and feels obligated no matter what to keep that promise. A post-nup, if you will.

One of my concerns has been how far from town does she need to go to get a lawyer to truly represent her? Her husband is a lawyer (corporate) himself IIRC. Him saying they both had expensive lawyers representing them didn't impress me for how much did his wife's lawyer really lean towards him? Did she truly choose her lawyer or was he/she suggested to her? His latest post didn't help change my mind about what I see here; it actually reinforced it.

V_, now is the time that you need to be able to think as rationally and non-emotionally as you can. Find trusted help and counseling and start talking to them. Why do I say this? Because now is the time for you to decide- you truly can't put it off any longer. If you wait until your children are gone, you will probably not be able to think for yourself at all by then. Also, I think your husband has been clear that he will completely and summarily dump you at that time. Because of that, why in the world would he be all in now or be interested in investing in a fulfilling relationship now? It's now not about what you can do to help him onboard, he has made his decision that no matter what you do, he will not be a partner with you. Repeat, he is not and will not ever be your partner because he has decided so.

Lots of speculation happening here.

Fact: People can choose to get divorced and maintain any sort of relationship with each other that they wish.

Fact: Mrs V is highly educated, privileged even. She is studying to be a doctor, for God's sake.

It will be tough to convince a court that she acted under duress or that the divorce was unconscionable.

Also, the idea that, simply because Mr V is a lawyer Mrs V could not get adequate independent legal advice that would stand up in court is...unlikely in the extreme.

For whatever reason, he chooses to make herself available for exploitation and perpetual punishment. She lives a life of perpetual punishment that only benefits her husband. That is a conscious choice. I can recognize a severe pattern of gaslighting from being raised in an environment of insanity myself. She is completely disconnected from reality herself, which is why I recommended going to a good counselor who can help her with reality testing. She felt very guilty about her affair and her husband has exploited that guilt for years.

It is no surprise to me that she cooperated in a divorce she finds "unconscionable" when she was seriously considering making an even more unconscionable decision in regards to her unborn child. I bet she has agreed to other things she found just as unconscionable that we don't even know about.

Also facts:
1) V_ isn't happy.
2) Taking from what they have both said, mutual extraordinary care isn't happening.
3) Either one or both of them aren't working on it.
4) V_'s husband is okay with the conditions so long as no one advises her to separate even though they are divorced. He didn't deny saying that they would go their separate ways, eventually. That is not being on board.

What can a body do if their spouse shows no interest in partnering up to a mutually fulfilling marriage?

If I am way off, I sincerely would appreciate someone highlighting and pointing out to me how V_'s husband's post clarifies that he is attempting to become partners and the reluctant one is V_.

I'm also sorry to say that I have a feeling that the subject that started this last round of posts is now moot. I hope you can tell me I'm wrong, V_.

What can a body do if their spouse shows no interest in partnering up to a mutually fulfilling marriage?

It's odd that this question appears today as it has become manifest that there are several recent threads, some even "paired" with both spouses having their own, in that the basic problem is that one/both spouse(s) gives a damn, or at least not enough to dive in with all they have to get the marriage corrected.

Lead a horse, but....

After introducing the MB concepts, exploring the probable benefits and eliciting consideration of executing on the plan, there isn't a lot to be done if one spouse chooses not to make the effort. As request follows request, not only does the initiating problem fester, but the realization of the lack of commitment by the recalcitrant spouse will deplete the $LB even faster.

Then the only question would be would the affected spouse decide to live a loveless marriage, or take steps to escape it.

THANK YOU for posting this transcription !!!
When an abusive spouse (or an ignorant MB'er) twist Dr. Harley's words into something so distant from the intended meaning, it is wonderful to have the FACTS cleared up.

Just compensation is NOT punishment.
Just compensation is restorative and healing for the marriage.

Just compensation is not "an eye for an eye" advice.

argh. i wrote a reply to this yesterday, but it disappeared into the ether after an hour's composition.

dr harley has a very straightforward answer to this question. it's just that, oddly enough, it appears to be less palatable to many than staying in a loveless, unhappy marriage.

as stated on the radio show just the other day, when the other spouse won't get on board, the only other choice the spouse has is to separate.

I sometimes write using Notepad, then copy, paste, and "pretty it up" into the posting box.



Sad but true.

V's husband has, interestingly succeeded in what would be the dream of every tirannical husband in the world.

He is living the american dream - way of life and at the same time has his wife in a position that is more like a third world marriage: as soon as he says three times: I want you to divorce you, she is out without the hassle and he gets to keep the children and the nanny and does not have to pay spousal support.

Mr. V. (no doubt you are reading this) we fully understand how your wife's affair touched you in the deepest and most vulnerable part of your soul. I also understand that you wanted some compensation for the pain.

But look, Mr. V., you cannot have wanted what has become of your marriage. You cannot have wanted what has become of you.
Surely you started the marriage with honourable ideals and wanted to make a good life for you and your bride. Isn't that what you have worked so hard for? Isn't that what you have studied and made your career for?

Now look at what has become of it. You have become the lawyer in your marriage, thinking about who has what rights under what circumstances and talking to us about how your wife admitted (I just suppose that you 'crossexamined' her) this or that. How she admitted that what she was feeling is wrong. Mr. V. you are such an intelligent man. If you take a helicopter-view at the situation you must see, that you cannot change the way your equally intelligent wife feels by proving to her that she is feeling the wrong things.

You should step back and start fresh. Build this marriage right back from the ground. After your wife has finished medical school, things will not be better. She will have to do internships and so on. You will have no time for one another and for the children. Is that how you envisioned life? Working till you drop dead? Is it really worth it in the end? To loose your marriage and seldom get to experience family life and help your children become people you can be proud of?

There must be other solutions. Think creatively about part-time options for the next 10 years. Your wife has a whole life ahead of her, someday the children will be gone. You see how fast that goes. Then she has more time to work full-time.

Mr. V, I am asking you to take the high road here. To take the 'lawyer' out of the man you are and to do the right thing. You married your bride because you wanted the best for her. And you also want the best for your children. Well, the best thing you can do, is to take good care of yourself and of their mother. Sit down with your wife tonight and tell her you don't want her to feel alone in her pregnancy and that you don't want her to feel this precious cild of yours is unwanted. Stress in the first three months of pregnancy is detrimental to the health of the baby and for its brain. (I'm telling you that as a medical professional myself)

You are the only one who can keep your family safe. You can turn this ship around. Your wife is in the little lifeboat all by herself, or that is how she feels anyway. You can take her in your arms and bring her aboard again. She feels she is reaching out to you. You are the only one who can make her feel safe. Not by convincing her that she is wrong, but by putting all of your money on this horse and forgetting about the out of jail for free card.

Teach your children what generosity is. Not money-wise, but in terms of the time and effort you put into your marriage. You are the captain and should be the last one to leave the ship, not the other way around. What better way to build you marriage anew then by marrying your wife all over again?

May God bless your efforts,

Happyheart

Mr. V,

Please read this post.

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2711950#Post2711950

Given their, comparatively, prolific use of parentheses in their posts, it wouldn't surprise me a bit if Mrs. V, Mr. V and MikeX were all the same person.

Starting a sentence in parentheses is, to me, something that stands out.