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I hope you didn't go have an AO at your husband.

Why did it make you feel angry that he told her to go to you? I know it's upsetting, but you can't demand for him to love your children and take care of them like they were his own. There are two separate general issues in relationships: Lovebusters and meeting needs. One can definitely make a calm stand against behavior that hurts (that is, an action that hurts, not an inaction that hurts), but trying to force them into meeting needs is a strategy that doesn't work.

Dr. Harley suggests that in blended families the biological parent does the disciplining. You could start a conversation where you could ask your husband for a list of the behavior that annoys him, with the rule that he can only state the behavior that annoys him and stop the conversation at the first demand or disrespectful judgement. For instance, if he begins to tell you that you aren't firm enough with them, stop the conversation and let him know that you only need the facts of what behavior annoys him. On your part, refrain from any judgements of how something shouldn't bother him or that he's too rigid.

Then take some time to come up with ideas and then a plan to address these annoyances and discuss these ideas with your husband. Like "I will remind my daughter to close her mouth while chewing at the moment she seems to have forgotten." However, maybe you could get his agreement that in return he would not scowl when she slips knowing that you are working on it.




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Married-14 years
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Originally Posted by LifetimeLearner
I hope you didn't go have an AO at your husband.
No I didn't.

Originally Posted by LifetimeLearner
Why did it make you feel angry that he told her to go to you? I know it's upsetting, but you can't demand for him to love your children and take care of them like they were his own.
Agreed. I think several factors come into my feelings on that. Previous SDs for me to care for his children. He tells me that he loves my children as his own as his justification to his SD. Regardless of my feelings for SD11, I have gotten up with her to clean up puke and take care of her along with him or alone. DD12 being upset that he didn't help her when she needed him. (as he tells her he loves her)

Originally Posted by LifetimeLearner
There are two separate general issues in relationships: Lovebusters and meeting needs. One can definitely make a calm stand against behavior that hurts (that is, an action that hurts, not an inaction that hurts), but trying to force them into meeting needs is a strategy that doesn't work.
Agreed. Thanks for the reminder.

Originally Posted by LifetimeLearner
Dr. Harley suggests that in blended families the biological parent does the disciplining. You could start a conversation where you could ask your husband for a list of the behavior that annoys him, with the rule that he can only state the behavior that annoys him and stop the conversation at the first demand or disrespectful judgement. For instance, if he begins to tell you that you aren't firm enough with them, stop the conversation and let him know that you only need the facts of what behavior annoys him. On your part, refrain from any judgements of how something shouldn't bother him or that he's too rigid.

Then take some time to come up with ideas and then a plan to address these annoyances and discuss these ideas with your husband. Like "I will remind my daughter to close her mouth while chewing at the moment she seems to have forgotten." However, maybe you could get his agreement that in return he would not scowl when she slips knowing that you are working on it.
Great direction. What do I do when reminding my daughter is not agreed by him? Me reminding her is not enough for him.

I just sent him a text asking how he would feel about another call with Steve. His response was that he got my text message and he was thinking about it and will get back with me.


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I hope you did not have an AO. It is just as wrong for you to demand that he care for your sick child, and judging him for not doing so, as it is for him to make demands and judge you.

I think the two of you need to consider getting into the online program instead of another session with Steve. You will have direct access to Dr. Harley, as well as a coach who will keep you accountable, and I think you need it.

Your husband in particular needs to talk to Dr. Harley.


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Here's a good thread. Anger Management 101


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What is the goal, to find fault with his view on this, or eliminate the annoying habit?

I can see both sides. I'm not saying he is taking an MB approved approach. He is doing what comes naturally when a repeated request goes unanswered.

I suspect from his perspective, he would say, I made a respectful request and that didn't get achieve the goal of eliminating the annoying habit, so he's escalating.

Again, not saying he's doing this right, just explaining the natural progression of how these things go.

He probably feels from his perspective he's tried it your way and the problem continues.

If you are going to sell MB, I think you have to try it the MB way AND make sure the MB achieves the desired results.

Brainstorming and negotiation are done without judgement. You don't say "that's a stupid/demeaning/mean or whatever idea." The goal isn't to judge the ideas, the goal is to solve the problem.

There are multiple problems here. He has complaints about how things go on in his home and like it or not, those issues destroy his romantic love for you.

This is compounded by his means of addressing the complaints. His AO likewise destroy romantic love.

I agree with the others that he needs to address his contribution to the problem.

Seems like there are all sorts of situations where you each are asking the other to choose.

There are so many pick her or me choices in what I've seen here. SD21 or DW, DD12 or DW and so on.

Where are the Win/Win solutions?

Maybe you need 3rd party help so that each of you can find some of those win/win solutions instead of offering up a series of win/lose scenarios?

Originally Posted by wipedout
Originally Posted by Prisca
I have to say that habit irritates me to no end, too, and I am working diligently to eliminate it in my own children.

That said, your husband has no business "watching her with daggers" and making her fear him. He has no business becoming angry -- with her for messing up, nor with you for not wanting to handle it his way. He is not negotiating. He is making a demand (follow his solution of having her eat at another table), and disrespecting you (blaming you).

I would refuse to have dinner with him as a family until he was willing to have a respectful negotiation (and that means you have a say, too).
We have discussed ideas (brainstorming) and I am not in agreement with his ideas. I am really at a loss as to how to handle it where it will satisfy him. I do bring it up to her and try to redirect the behavior. He feels she is disobeying. What other ways are there that my blinders are preventing me to brainstorm that would apease him???

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Email your questions to Joyce Harley at mbradio@marriagebuilders.com. When your email question is chosen to be answered on the radio show, you will be notified by email directing you to listen to the rebroadcast. If you would like to consider being a caller, include your telephone number. You will be called by us to explain the procedure to you. Every caller will receive a complementary book by Dr. Harley that addresses their question.


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Originally Posted by Prisca
I hope you did not have an AO. It is just as wrong for you to demand that he care for your sick child, and judging him for not doing so, as it is for him to make demands and judge you.

I think the two of you need to consider getting into the online program instead of another session with Steve. You will have direct access to Dr. Harley, as well as a coach who will keep you accountable, and I think you need it.

Your husband in particular needs to talk to Dr. Harley.
No AO to him. Just came here to vent with a virtual voodoo doll desire. I first wanted to go to that program but thought the phone coaching would be more impactful. It is like pulling teeth to get him to make movement. I am tried of being the force behind working toward a better marriage. I asked him, how he would feel if we had another call with Steve and he said he would get back with me. That was yesterday, I�m still waiting.

Originally Posted by BrainHurts
Here's a good thread. Anger Management 101
Thanks! I�m listening now.

Originally Posted by Enlightened_Ex
What is the goal, to find fault with his view on this, or eliminate the annoying habit?
This is why I come here. Thanks for the accountability!

Originally Posted by Enlightened_Ex
I can see both sides. I'm not saying he is taking an MB approved approach. He is doing what comes naturally when a repeated request goes unanswered.

I suspect from his perspective, he would say, I made a respectful request and that didn't get achieve the goal of eliminating the annoying habit, so he's escalating.
I agree. It is also frustrating to me that it continues.

Originally Posted by Enlightened_Ex
Again, not saying he's doing this right, just explaining the natural progression of how these things go.

He probably feels from his perspective he's tried it your way and the problem continues.
Yes, I would agree. I have the perspective that it has gotten better, he disagrees.

Originally Posted by Enlightened_Ex
If you are going to sell MB, I think you have to try it the MB way AND make sure the MB achieves the desired results.
Agreed

Originally Posted by Enlightened_Ex
Brainstorming and negotiation are done without judgement. You don't say "that's a stupid/demeaning/mean or whatever idea." The goal isn't to judge the ideas, the goal is to solve the problem.
I agree. I have not said to him they are stupid or whatever. The thoughts are in my head. Is that even wrong? My taker says his brainstorming ideas are not in enthusiastic agreement with me.

Originally Posted by Enlightened_Ex
There are multiple problems here. He has complaints about how things go on in his home and like it or not, those issues destroy his romantic love for you.

This is compounded by his means of addressing the complaints. His AO likewise destroy romantic love.

I agree with the others that he needs to address his contribution to the problem.

Seems like there are all sorts of situations where you each are asking the other to choose.

There are so many pick her or me choices in what I've seen here. SD21 or DW, DD12 or DW and so on.

Where are the Win/Win solutions?
This is what I want to find but I�m clueless.

Originally Posted by Enlightened_Ex
Originally Posted by wipedout
Originally Posted by Prisca
I have to say that habit irritates me to no end, too, and I am working diligently to eliminate it in my own children.

That said, your husband has no business "watching her with daggers" and making her fear him. He has no business becoming angry -- with her for messing up, nor with you for not wanting to handle it his way. He is not negotiating. He is making a demand (follow his solution of having her eat at another table), and disrespecting you (blaming you).

I would refuse to have dinner with him as a family until he was willing to have a respectful negotiation (and that means you have a say, too).
We have discussed ideas (brainstorming) and I am not in agreement with his ideas. I am really at a loss as to how to handle it where it will satisfy him. I do bring it up to her and try to redirect the behavior. He feels she is disobeying. What other ways are there that my blinders are preventing me to brainstorm that would apease him???
Maybe you need 3rd party help so that each of you can find some of those win/win solutions instead of offering up a series of win/lose scenarios?
YES!!!! A mediator of sorts! How can that be done?

Yes, I would agree he has no business �watching her with daggers� and making her fear him. I understand he is frustrated because he feels it is just as bad as it has always been. I am also frustrated sounding like a broken record. I understand they are children and need redirecting a lot. DH feels they are disobeying and have the ability to do as they are told.

How do I find a 3rd party who can help me at least brainstorm?

Counseling efforts have failed. I like this forum, but he (to my knowledge) hasn�t posted. I have pointed it out and he has agreed to not read my thread. I appreciate the straight approach to call me out on the things I control and for the support of my feelings to start with. This is the first place where I have felt the comments are not just for me to feel good but it also takes my feelings into consideration.

I have been avoiding him at dinner times. I am scared to refuse to have dinner with him as a family until he was willing to have a respectful negotiation. First, that seems like I'm demanding and to top off i expect to be blamed and told there is never going to be an agreement. It is black and white to him. She disobeys, she gets a consequence. The consequence is something that should hurt so that it is impactful on the behavior we are trying to modify.


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I first wanted to go to that program but thought the phone coaching would be more impactful.
My experience: The online program was more impactful because of the direct link to Dr. Harley himself.

You will be assigned a coach who will mediate between you two, hold you accountable, and guide you through the program.

Our coach was always available by email.

Last edited by Prisca; 06/04/13 12:46 PM.

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First, that seems like I'm demanding
It is not demanding to refuse to enter into a situation in which you know you or your children will be emotionally abused. He is the one demanding that you handle the situation his way, and getting angry when you don't want to. There is a solution that you both can be happy about, but you cannot negotiate to find it until he eliminates his demands, disrespect and anger.


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I would like to be prepared should my husband asked me why I am sleeping on the couch. I want to make sure that my response does not have selfish demands and disrespectful judgements. I do not love him anymore, I do not want to be intimate with him and right now I struggle just to be around him. Can you please give me your insight?


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Originally Posted by wipedout
...

Agreed. I think several factors come into my feelings on that. Previous SDs for me to care for his children. He tells me that he loves my children as his own as his justification to his SD. Regardless of my feelings for SD11, I have gotten up with her to clean up puke and take care of her along with him or alone. DD12 being upset that he didn't help her when she needed him. (as he tells her he loves her)

...
Great direction. What do I do when reminding my daughter is not agreed by him? Me reminding her is not enough for him.

So, your anger was based on what you feel he should have done. It's very good that you held back on the AO because that would have turned it into a selfish demand. Dr. Harley says in "Lovebusters" that one may have 50 good reasons why a spouse should do something but that doesn't justify a selfish demand. Negotiation is the step to take.

On the second, if you two can't come to an agreement on how to address disciplining a behavior, you do nothing. That is, no discipline for that behavior. As much as you can't force him to take care of a sick child in the middle of the night, he can't force you to discipline his way. Maybe you can negotiate a trial period of you reminding her for 3 weeks and see if she doesn't develop the habit of chewing with her mouth closed.

I don't know what to tell you about the couch. I would hazard a guess that you'd be advised to go back to sleeping in the bed, but you see, what happens there is up for negotiation.



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Married-14 years
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Originally Posted by LifetimeLearner
Originally Posted by wipedout
...

Agreed. I think several factors come into my feelings on that. Previous SDs for me to care for his children. He tells me that he loves my children as his own as his justification to his SD. Regardless of my feelings for SD11, I have gotten up with her to clean up puke and take care of her along with him or alone. DD12 being upset that he didn't help her when she needed him. (as he tells her he loves her)

...
Great direction. What do I do when reminding my daughter is not agreed by him? Me reminding her is not enough for him.

So, your anger was based on what you feel he should have done. It's very good that you held back on the AO because that would have turned it into a selfish demand. Dr. Harley says in "Lovebusters" that one may have 50 good reasons why a spouse should do something but that doesn't justify a selfish demand. Negotiation is the step to take.

On the second, if you two can't come to an agreement on how to address disciplining a behavior, you do nothing. That is, no discipline for that behavior. As much as you can't force him to take care of a sick child in the middle of the night, he can't force you to discipline his way. Maybe you can negotiate a trial period of you reminding her for 3 weeks and see if she doesn't develop the habit of chewing with her mouth closed.

I don't know what to tell you about the couch. I would hazard a guess that you'd be advised to go back to sleeping in the bed, but you see, what happens there is up for negotiation.
I will go back to the bed only after he eliminates 80 percent of his anger, selfish demands, and disrespectful judgements. We are not in any position to negotiate. His DJs and SDs are out of control at this point.


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Originally Posted by wipedout
I will go back to the bed only after he eliminates 80 percent of his anger, selfish demands, and disrespectful judgements. We are not in any position to negotiate. His DJs and SDs are out of control at this point.

So, basically, you're starting a "separation" under the same roof.
Why not just separate? It will be more effective.
What's to stop him from being demanding, disrespectful, and angry while you're on the couch.

I used to sleep on the couch. I think Markos liked it.


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Originally Posted by Prisca
Originally Posted by wipedout
I will go back to the bed only after he eliminates 80 percent of his anger, selfish demands, and disrespectful judgements. We are not in any position to negotiate. His DJs and SDs are out of control at this point.

So, basically, you're starting a "separation" under the same roof.
Why not just separate? It will be more effective.
What's to stop him from being demanding, disrespectful, and angry while you're on the couch.

I used to sleep on the couch. I think Markos liked it.
I see your point. I have been reading more on the site and found the following:

Originally Posted by Dr.Harley
Once separated, couples often never do reconcile, remaining separated for life, or they eventually divorce. A fact unknown to many is that fifteen to twenty percent of all married couples end their lives permanently separated. These, who are not included in divorce statistics, usually feel that they should not legally divorce for religious reasons. But for most practical purposes, they are as divorced as those legally divorced. Their separation did not create the opportunity for reconciliation, but rather, created an even higher barrier between spouses.
From what I can tell the 'separation' suggestions are revolved more around infidelity. I do see Letter#1 about an abusive husband. My husband does not insult me about sex or tell me I cannot see a counselor. He does not reject hearing the hard things thus far that Steve has shared with him. He may not fully grasp them but I don't feel he is completely rejecting them. He has taken steps to eliminate his AOs and done well. The only issue he rejects is the idea that he is hurting our marriage with his choice to continue seeing SD21 without my enthusastic agreement. He continues to blame me for the pain. This is something that I expected. Steve sees that it needs to be handled with 'kid gloves' so to speak.

I have requested his thoughts on doing the online program as you suggested. It sounds like a great way to force movement in a positive direction for both of us. Right now, I'm in a holding pattern. Yesterday, he said he would get back with me. I am trying to patiently wait.

In the meantime, I do still have issues with his DJs and SDs that he isn't capable of fully seeing right now. So the best thing I can do is to make sure I'm not returning the same to him. I need help with wording to him on another issue.

My children have been alienated from SD21s children as well as a result of being my children. They have been somewhat sheltered in the process as they just are not getting to see the step-nephew and step-niece. DD13 made a plaque for her niece and DH took it to her when he last visited her when she was out of state. SD21 contacted DD13 to say thank you. Some small conversation occured and DD13 requested a picture of her step-nephew. SD21 provided a picture with no instruction to keep it private. SD11 has tons of pictures and was told directly by SD21 not to post them on Instagram. DD13 has a private account on Instagram and had posted the picture with stating it is the nephew she never gets to see. DH found it and asked me to ask her to remove it. His rationale is that SD21 asked SD11 to not post so DD13 shouldn't also.

This seems like such a stupid issue but it is another example of the control. I have created an email to respond to his request. I have listed his shared EN of H&O as I feel he won't like what I am about to share with him.

************************************************************
Honesty & Openness �
� Share positive and negative emotional reactions to significant aspects of life. Even if I think he won�t like it.

I do not feel comfortable telling DD13 to remove the picture of [step-nephew] from Instagram. SD21 has not told her to keep the picture private. SD21 was the one to share the picture directly to her. I feel that this is an issue between DD13 and SD21.

Can you help me understand how this is different than me having his pictures on Facebook?
************************************************************
In an arguement SD21 was having to try to get her way after Christmas she demanded that we (DH and I) remove all pictures of her son from Facebook. DH refused and told her if she wanted them removed from my Facebook she would need to tell me. She sent me a message and I asked DH what he wanted me to do. He told me nothing. I didn't respond to her (which I feel made me look bad to her) but I removed the pictures without telling DH. DH is once again 'friends' with her on facebook and the pictures are not an issue between SD21 and him. This is what I'm referring to above with the question to him.

Please let me know what you think about the above message to DH.


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I'm at DD13 softball game. DH is assist coach. It hurts so much to be this close to home and there is zero affection.


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Originally Posted by wipedout
I'm at DD13 softball game. DH is assist coach. It hurts so much to be this close to home and there is zero affection.

But you don't want affection?


Husband (me) 39
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He is not in enthusiastic agreement that your daughter has this picture on the web. On this one, I don't see it as him being controlling. The way you presented it, it sounds like he made a request. He's asking you to handle it and you tell him to have his 21 year old daughter to handle it. It was his request, not hers.





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Originally Posted by kilted_thrower
Originally Posted by wipedout
I'm at DD13 softball game. DH is assist coach. It hurts so much to be this close to home and there is zero affection.

But you don't want affection?
I do want affection. It is my #1 EN. I am giving him his emotional needs. Ensuring I ask his opinion, follow through on selling clutter, be stern with my kids, step up my parenting, ask him about his day, check to see if anything is going on before i make plans, finish projects i start, pick up after myself and make the kids pick up after themselves. I come here to ask before I make a move because I seem to have blinders on and need help.

I feel so alone. I feel so unwanted. I feel uncared for.

Originally Posted by LifetimeLearner
He is not in enthusiastic agreement that your daughter has this picture on the web. On this one, I don't see it as him being controlling. The way you presented it, it sounds like he made a request. He's asking you to handle it and you tell him to have his 21 year old daughter to handle it. It was his request, not hers.
Hmmmm... when you put it that way. ok, i'm glad I didn't send him anything. You are right, it was his request. I guess I am still so hurt over feeling like she is a priority over me. I feel like he is trying to protect his relationship with her by looking out for her and doing things for her. He isn't protecting our relationship because I am not in enthusiastic agreement for her to be a part of our lives right now. There is a lot of resentment.

Regardless of that, why do I feel so controlled over it though? I am not in enthusiastic agreement that it be removed. SD21 never told her not to post it. DD13 site is not visible to the public. DD13 loves the little one but never gets to see him. She was sent a picture directly from SD21 and she shared it with her friends. She is hurt that she doesn't get to see him and it is her little moment to share a piece of what she can have. Seems like just because DH wants it I need to provide it for him? Doesn't feel like a win-win. Help me out here. Something doesn't seem right. Correct my thinking!


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No, you're not required to do something just because he requested it. Did you ask him how he would feel if this photo of his grandson was posted in his step daughter's account?
The longer it stays there, the more love bank withdrawals are made. The more withdrawals, the less likely he will be motivated to make you and your marriage his first priority.
If removing this photo is a sacrifice to you, though, don't do it, but be sure to let your husband know this fact.


Last edited by LifetimeLearner; 06/06/13 06:35 AM. Reason: Misspelling

xFWW(me)-48
Married-14 years
D-Day~23-May-11
NC- 14-Apr-11
1 DS 15
Online course July '11 to July '12
17 sessions with S. Harley Feb '12 to Sep '12
Divorced Jan 21, 2013
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 5,736
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And he's not enthusiastic about NOT seeing SD21, so what is the plan to get to something you are BOTH enthusiastic about?

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